Acupuncture [Archive] - Martial Arts Planet

nzric

31-Oct-2004, 09:16 PM

Just want to write about my first experience of acupuncture (well, second, but the first was just to fix a badly stubbed toe).

I've been having digestion problems (acid indigestion and "rumbling") for nearly a year and decided to go to the local college of natural therapies for a $20 acupuncture session.

After an hour and a half of talking about my health (where I learned I need to pay more attention to my "stool"), the guy spoke in depth to his tutor then came back in with the needles.

I still haven't gotten around to buying a acupuncture wall chart so I'll give you the points in a later post, but he stuck pins in each wrist, on my shins, the base of my big toes (a little too far in) and between my 2nd and 3rd biggest toes.

I lay there for about 15 minutes then left with feeling a little discomfort where the pins had been but no different at all.

Gotta say though, although I didn't think I was that impressed, I haven't had indigestion once in the past four days, which is great, considering I've been chewing family packs of indigestion tablets all the time recently. Also, I've been doing all the wrong things (drinking alcohol throughout the day, drinking coffee, eating cheese, eating before I go to bed...).

I feel great!

YODA

31-Oct-2004, 09:18 PM

After an hour and a half of talking about my health (where I learned I need to pay more attention to my "stool")

A good chair is soooo important for good posture :Angel:

nzric

03-Nov-2004, 10:10 PM

Chris from CT

04-Nov-2004, 02:27 AM

I have a complaint. The guy wanted me to come back after a week and have another treatment, but I insisted on making it two weeks later.

After six and a half days (last night) I got the first indigestion I've had since the acupuncture! It's freaking me out but I think he did it on purpose so that I wanted to come back in exactly seven days. Next time I go in I'll get him to give the needle another twist and maybe it'll last a couple more days!

I'm pretty sure (s)he didn't do it on purpose. Acupuncture really doesn't work like that.

In acupuncture, the general rule of thumb is... the longer you have had an issue, the longer it may take to heal it. Also in the beginning, the treatments are usually closer together (1x/week or even 2x/week in some cases)

If you think about it, it took over a year to get you to where you are at now; could you really expect it to be all better in a single, one hour treatment? :) Hey, sometimes that's all it takes, but that is not the norm. I'm not surprised you saw some benefit right off the bat, but now your body is in the process of becoming balanced.

Acupuncture is an effective way of getting the body to auto regulate itself. Some people go to a doctor to have the doctor fix them. With acupuncture it is more of a team effort. Your body wants to be balanced and tries its best to do that, but when it can't, sickness or injury occurs. Acupuncture prods the body to achieve homeostasis (balance). So the team effort comes from the acupuncturist showing the body how to balance itself and then patient's body follows that lead and heals them self.

I hope you have continued success with your treatments. :)

Kwajman

04-Nov-2004, 02:06 PM

I know very little about acupuncture but am fascinated by it. If you keep going, please keep posting about your results. I'd like to hear about them.

nzric

04-Nov-2004, 11:41 PM

Alright, I now look like I've been abducted by aliens! I escaped the 'probe' but I have round red welts all over me and scratches down my back.

My wife and I went to another TCM doctor who decided to treat me for the indigestion and also fatigue (I'm NOT a morning person). He checked out my posture and adjusted my back (click, click), then did a chinese treatment called "cupping".

First he put oil on my back and scratched lightly down my spine, and I swear red spots started appearing in exactly the acupuncture points related to the body parts that were causing me trouble (I wouldn't believe it myself but my wife (a big sceptic) was standing next to him going "WOW, that's so cool!!").

He burned pure alcohol on the rim of glass cups and put them on my back, down my spine and on my side (and later on my stomach). The burned alcohol caused a vacuum that made the flesh suck up into the cups. It doesn't hurt at all and it's not hot but it looks weird.

So I've got red welts from the cups and scratches, the principle is to draw the "heat" out of the body to get the chi/circulation going again. It's like acupuncture with suction cups and supposed to be less intrusive than needles.

Went home and I have bags full of suspicious looking powder in little paper packets to take every night. I had a great sleep last night, felt alright in the morning (first time in AGES) and my stomach has been fine!

My sceptic wife? Well, apparently I'm reasonably "fit and healthy" so it won't take long, but she needs a bit of work - her back is out a bit from contact sport, a fall some months ago, and working at a computer. But she also feels much better and after the "cupping" was convinced we'd turned the lights up in the office because she felt really awake and energetic.

I go back to the needle guy next thursday

drifter

05-Nov-2004, 12:13 AM

I was ready to say "placebo", but it doesnt sound like anyone here actually believed in it before. Time to rethink? Having an ingrained disbelief in most forms of spiritual/chi/mystic healing I'd like to ask : what are the fundamental philosophies underlying acupuncture? simple science or some "greater force"?

woodrow

07-Nov-2004, 05:23 AM

Simple science. If you understand how you are put together, acupuncture makes sense like 2+2=4 makes sense. If you do not understand how you are put together, or someone has convinced you of an incorrect way in which you are put together, then it will seem fake, "all in the head", "must be a placebo effect"

nzric

07-Nov-2004, 11:15 PM

Just want to give some more feedback. The "cupping" doesn't seem to have done much good. Well, it may have worked to give me more energy in the mornings, but it hasn't done much for my digestion problems.

I know it takes time and I know it's not like just taking a pill, but after the amazing effect of the acupuncture, I thought the cupping would be similar.

And I've still got these nasty red welts all over me!

aikiMac

12-Nov-2004, 10:52 PM

If you understand how you are put together, acupuncture makes sense like 2+2=4 makes sense. If you do not understand how you are put together, or someone has convinced you of an incorrect way in which you are put together, then it will seem fake, "all in the head", "must be a placebo effect"
Hmm. I kinda like that explanation. I might, um, "borrow" that in the future.

leo

13-Nov-2004, 11:10 AM

out of interest does accupuncture have the same effect as injections? last time i had an injection i passed out but it didnt hurt it just maeks me feel sick and dizzy, which is usual when i have injections, will accupuncture have the same effect on me? and why do injections have this effect neway? i have a pretty good imune system but needles just make me feel sick and dizzy :bang:

woodrow

13-Nov-2004, 05:43 PM

You are a sensitive person is why. Injections place a foreign substance inside of the boy. Some people can't feel it. If you are sensitive though, it feels like someone is sticking a 2 X 4 under your skin.

Acupuncture won't do that. They only insert into the skin. No injection of foreign substances. The needles are very fine also. Smaller than a sewing pin. You do feel *****ing. After a few sessions you don't even notice it unless there is a problem. If you have a problem and they stick the point associated with it, it can really hurt. But that is good. The pain tells you the acupuncturist has hit the right spot to cure what ails you.

Knight_Errant

14-Nov-2004, 08:18 PM

You are a sensitive person is why. Injections place a foreign substance inside of the boy
You seem to have a preoccupation with inserting foreign bodies into boys.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, was how acupuncture was first developed;

woodrow

15-Nov-2004, 05:02 PM

"You seem to have a preoccupation with inserting foreign bodies into boys."

So predictable. ;)

Tell me what you really want to say. I can take it.

Knight_Errant

15-Nov-2004, 05:53 PM

Well, you did write that thead on how assplay would turn you into an invincible martial artist, and how it'll make you fat and bad guys will keep clear because fat people are scary...

woodrow

17-Nov-2004, 08:13 PM

You are being very confusing. I don't even want to use the word you did to describe that other post of mind.

I was absolutely serious. I forget that there are cultures where mention of the hiney or genital area brings out the worst in people. I had been talking on other forums where the discussion is much more open. I did not expect the reaction I got here.

Actually I need to thank you for this comment. I wanted to say this in the other thread but it was closed.

People need to be adult about things. If there culture has a taboo about something, like frank discussion of the the genital area or the behind, they may have to get over that taboo to progress as a person.

All the martial artists here know a few basic facts. One of them is that "Power comes from the hips".

We all know where the hips are right? I asked that in class one day and the teacher laughed at me. I felt bad until I realized that no one else knew where they were either. The teacher asked for someone to tell me and no one voluntereed. Then one of the doctors told us where it was.

So you know where the hips are right? And we know that the hips are where the power in kung fu comes from. Now don't jump or get scared, what is right next to the hips?

The genitals are in front of the hips and the behind is in back of the hips.

It is impossible to talk about hip power without acknowledging that they are connected to the butt and groin. That exercise I described does work. It makes you butt strong. And because your hips and groin and right there by your butt, they get strong too.

It is common sense. But because sexual ideas are taboo to people, you cannot even say groin or butt without some people jumping up and saying "Those are taboo words. SHUT UP!".

You have to get over it sometime. Groin, Hips, Buttocks. They are all connected together and the sooner you connect them and make them strong, the sooner you will get really really good in kung fu.

nzric

18-Nov-2004, 01:23 AM

Woodrow - you know you can edit your posts once you put them up, so you can fix the typos...

I completely agree with your last post, although it's a bit off topic. I've started a new thread on this so we can try to keep this one on the acupuncture theme.

See: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23507

Knight_Errant

18-Nov-2004, 04:37 PM

It is common sense. But because sexual ideas are taboo to people, you cannot even say groin or butt without some people jumping up and saying "Those are taboo words. SHUT UP!".
Uh, no. The fact that you used taboo words doesn't bother me at all- check out yoda's 'parking meter' post for example, if you can find it...
What bothers us is that you posted a load of silly rubbish about how you could become an awesome fighting machine by sticking things up your ass.
Forget about that nonsense. The way you get good is by doing actual training- shadowboxing, bagwork, weights, etc. Violating yourself with drumsticks might make me laugh, but otherwise achieves jack :D

nzric

18-Nov-2004, 08:27 PM

dunno knight_errant - I'd probably turn into a pretty mean fighting machine if someone tried to stick something up me!!

woodrow

20-Nov-2004, 02:31 AM

"What bothers us is that you posted a load of silly rubbish about how you could become an awesome fighting machine by sticking things up your ass."

That is not what I said at all. You know it. The proof is over there in the thread.

I said use a drum stick and clench it vertically between your butt cheeks to give them something to hold onto. If you wish to use a book, a kitchen dish, a child's toy or a piece of wood, that is up to you. The idea is that if your butt cheeks are weak, pressing them against each other does not give you enough feedback for the clenching. With a book or whatever in there, your butt cheeks can clamp down really hard.

I said it before. You can learn all the great kicks and punches and death techniques you want. If you do not have some basic strenght, bodily alignment and bodily connection, none of those techniques are worth a darn.

Most people don't want to do homework or build their foundation. They want to kick and punch NOW. I am trying to get people to see that you can get farther, faster by doing something totally unrelated to martial arts, if they need to.

I maintain that a strong person or a naturally aggressive person will always beat a person who is not very strong and sort of clumsy, but knows how to kick and punch. That exercise I described will give a person a certain kind of exercise in about a year or so. A kind of strength that is different from weight lifting or other exercises.

If you are a professional fighter at a high level of training and condition, then you probably are right to laugh at what I say. You are way up there. But for people who just walked in off the street to learn martial arts, they can benefit from what I said.

Knight_Errant

20-Nov-2004, 11:04 AM

You get basic strength, bodily alignment, etc. by practising basic techiques and lifting weights.
I think what you've done is got hold of the traditional karate 'straighten your back' advice and taken it WAY too far. In some cases, instructors put small objects like coins up there to remind them to keep it straight.
You should bear in mind that this old-fashioned advice was discredited a long time ago. Tensing up the muscles in your ass to straighten your back actually makes your techiques weaker by increasing muscle tension.
for people who just walked in off the street to learn martial arts, they can benefit from what I said.
People who just walked in off the street stand to be harmed a lot more than experienced athletes by listening to this kind of delusional claptrap.

woodrow

20-Nov-2004, 03:41 PM

See, this is what I find funny.

You say I am wrong. Then you yourself admit that you have heard this advice before. I had not heard of the "holding a coin in there" one. The point is, I did not make this up out of thin air for no reason. Other people have said the same thing.

If you take the position that old fashioned advice is wrong, you may as well write off all of martial arts. All martial arts were invented 100's of years ago.

People of today, in many many disciplines, are arrogant. They go to a college and learn a specialized area of knowledge. Then they claim they are smarter than the average bear. This is not true. They believe because they paid money for college and they spent years of their lives learning, that they know more than ancient people. This is not true. They only know more of what modern society thinks is important. What does geography or chemistry have to do with making a person strong and healthy?

Then you also have to include the idea that real knowledge is polluted and hidden and ridiculed so that the people who want to rule over others have no competition. If everyone knows how to be strong, who is the "leader"? Everyone is strong enough so no one is the leader. People with the urge to control others cannot have this. So they corrupt and hide and ridicule the ideas that make people strong.

I don't really care too much. We have different opinions and that is the way it is. I am reacting to the "claptrap" sentence at the end. I won't convince you and that is fine with me. I will talk to other people with more open minds.

We all read stories of how the old masters "kept back the secret knowledge".

Knight_Errant

20-Nov-2004, 04:36 PM

You say I am wrong. Then you yourself admit that you have heard this advice before. I had not heard of the "holding a coin in there" one. The point is, I did not make this up out of thin air for no reason. Other people have said the same thing.
Notice that I also say it's incredibly retarded advice. Don't believe me? Run the hundred with your ass tensed like that.
Then you also have to include the idea that real knowledge is polluted and hidden and ridiculed so that the people who want to rule over others have no competition. If everyone knows how to be strong, who is the "leader"? Everyone is strong enough so no one is the leader. People with the urge to control others cannot have this. So they corrupt and hide and ridicule the ideas that make people strong.
I'm going to say this once and for all;
STICKING THINGS UP YOUR ASS AND CLENCHING DOES NOT MAKE YOU STRONG.
I've got no idea where you picked up all this crap, and frankly I don't care. Drop it.

We all read stories of how the old masters "kept back the secret knowledge".

And the more sensible of us realise that 'secret knowledge' either;
1. Doesn't exist, or
2. Is bull.

aikiMac

21-Nov-2004, 07:01 AM

Just want to write about my first experience of acupuncture (well, second, but the first was just to fix a badly stubbed toe).
...
Gotta say though, although I didn't think I was that impressed, I haven't had indigestion once in the past four days, which is great, considering I've been chewing family packs of indigestion tablets all the time recently.
Okay, getting back on topic now, I'll share a phone call I received last weekend from my brother. He called to ask me if I've ever tried accupuncture, because he had just tried it for a sore back, and it made him feel wonderful. He couldn't believe how effective it was on him. Actually he could believe it, because it was him, but anyway, he went in not knowing anything about it and not knowing if it would work, and it worked marvelously. The only reason he picked accupuncture was cost: it was cheaper than the chiropractor.

My experience with accupuncture a few years ago was similar. I felt like I had a brand new body. I went a few times at the start of flu season because I'd heard that accupuncture can boost one's immunity. Apparently it did, because I did not get the flu that year.

YODA

21-Nov-2004, 12:16 PM

My experience with accupuncture a few years ago was similar. I felt like I had a brand new body. I went a few times at the start of flu season because I'd heard that accupuncture can boost one's immunity. Apparently it did, because I did not get the flu that year.
I started some new stick twirling exercises last year - and guess what - I didn't get the flu either!

Expect my new 4 tape series on "Stick twirling as healing" very soon :rolleyes:

The human brain is a powerful healer. You know what? I reckon he could have stuck those needles in any part of you brother's body and it would STILL have had the same effect.

hwardo

21-Nov-2004, 12:47 PM

There are both NIH reports as well as WHO studies that have lots of clinical evidence supporting acupuncture being effective for a wide range of illnesses and maladies. As a first year acupuncture student, we have to spend a significant potion of our day observing in the clinic. I've seen some inspiring things in there; a woman with bell's palsy working her way up to being able to drink out of a straw, a stroke victim regaining around 85 percent of his original strength in the affected leg, as well as numerous cases of relief from chronic stomach issues, headaches, etc.

Here's the thing about acupuncture:
1) It takes time to correct imbalance. Usually, 8 to ten treatments are required before you can reasonably expect for a condition to completely go away, and not have a good chance of returning.
2) It doesn't require your belief in it to work-- At least once a day we get a skeptic in who has no where else to turn. Often, those folks are the ones who leave the most impressed by how effective it is.
3) Acupuncture isn't just for pain relief-- it is its own system of internal medicine. Using herbal medicine, acupuncture, moxibustion, and dietary therapy, a practioner addresses imbalances in the body according to a rubric that has been developed using empirical evidence-- manipulate this, that goes away, patterns of symptoms that look like this can be effectively addressed by that. It uses words that folks might not be familiar with, but unlike the spiritual traditions in the east, the words are simply used to describe observable patterns of symptoms. These patterns of symptoms are treated.

Knight_Errant

21-Nov-2004, 01:06 PM

There are both NIH reports as well as WHO studies that have lots of clinical evidence supporting acupuncture being effective for a wide range of illnesses and maladies.
Are they large scale double-blind studies involving a control group and/or a group being given a placebo?
If you take the position that old fashioned advice is wrong, you may as well write off all of martial arts. All martial arts were invented 100's of years ago.
LOL I just noticed that one :D
The difference is that martial arts techniques are, or should be, regularly tested in competition. By the way, most styles are NOT 100s of years old. Karate is certainly no older than about 80 years in its present form, for example.

hwardo

21-Nov-2004, 01:12 PM

You should check 'em out for yourself. If you go to the wikipedia encyclopedia, you'll get a very fair and balanced explanation of acupuncture, looking at it from both sides. Included in the article are links to numerous studies from both ends. I personally would love to see even more research being performed here in the west, because I am obviously confident in acupuncture's effectiveness, but unfortunately, in America we have issues with funding because of the tight control that drug manufacturers have on the money supply to both universities and hospitals alike.

How you been, K.E.?

woodrow

21-Nov-2004, 04:49 PM

"STICKING THINGS UP YOUR ASS AND CLENCHING DOES NOT MAKE YOU STRONG.
I've got no idea where you picked up all this crap, and frankly I don't care. Drop it."

Or what?

You will make more posts in all caps shouting? You don't know what you are talking about.

"And the more sensible of us realise that 'secret knowledge' either;
1. Doesn't exist, or
2. Is bull."

I think it is more likely that your mind is closed up tight from all that weightlifting. Your head is connected to the rest of your body. You make your arms and legs tight with weightlifting, your head gets tight too. You don't think so good with a tight head.

That is where they stereotypical "big muscular guy is dumb" comes from. It is not a stereotype. Their brains do not function optimally because they have been squished and squeezed from weightlifting.

woodrow

21-Nov-2004, 04:52 PM

"The difference is that martial arts techniques are, or should be, regularly tested in competition. By the way, most styles are NOT 100s of years old. "

Acupuncture has been tested on people for 1000 years or more. Keep trying. You really ought to drop that superior "I am a 21st century man which makes me superior" attitude. You are missing out on things that could help you.

Knight_Errant

21-Nov-2004, 06:17 PM

Um no, you are clinging to a mixture of disinformation and utter fabrications that mean you waste your time doing irrelevant things.
Going on scientific evidence and proof does make you superior.
That is where they stereotypical "big muscular guy is dumb" comes from. It is not a stereotype. Their brains do not function optimally because they have been squished and squeezed from weightlifting.
you're not serious are you?
Or what?

You will make more posts in all caps shouting? You don't know what you are talking about.
Or justify it in any way whatsoever?
I know what I'm talking about a lot better than you do, matey.

YODA

21-Nov-2004, 06:21 PM

bcullen

21-Nov-2004, 06:42 PM

Are they large scale double-blind studies involving a control group and/or a group being given a placebo?

Yes

In 2004, a University of Heidelberg team proved the worth of their "sham acupuncture" technique in a study of postoperative nausea and vomiting (PONV) in women who underwent breast or gynecologic surgery. The study involved 220 women who received either acupuncture or the sham procedure at the acupuncture point "Pericardium 6" on the inside of the forearm. No significant difference in PONV or antivomiting medication use was found between the two groups or between the people who received treatment before anesthesia was induced and those who received it while anesthetized [11]. A subgroup analysis found that vomiting was "significantly reduced" among the acupuncture patients, but the authors correctly noted that this finding might be due to studying multiple outcomes. (As the number of different outcome measures increases, so do the odds that a "statistically significant" finding will be spurious.) This study is important because PONV reduction is one of the few alleged benefits of acupuncture supported by reports in scientific journals. However, the other PONV studies claiming to show positive results have not been as tightly controlled.

nzric

21-Nov-2004, 09:13 PM

Excellent info bcullen

IMHO - I don't have a tumor or a jungle virus, it's simply indigestion pains. I don't really care if they stuck needles in me or if they put a hamburger on my head and asked me to hop around in circles. If it makes me feel better that's all I'm concerned about.

Saying that, if I did have an ulcer (or cancer or a jungle virus) I'd go straight to a western doctor for treatment.

aikiMac

21-Nov-2004, 10:14 PM

I started some new stick twirling exercises last year - and guess what - I didn't get the flu either!

Expect my new 4 tape series on "Stick twirling as healing" very soon :rolleyes:

The human brain is a powerful healer. You know what? I reckon he could have stuck those needles in any part of you brother's body and it would STILL have had the same effect.
I missed your point. If a cause consistently leads to an effect, then, shall we not say that it works? If that particular stick twirling exercise that you were dong consistently prevents the flu for a group of people, then, shall we not say that it works? From what I've read accupuncture has been around for thousands of years because hey, it consistently works. You could argue that for thousands of years people have been suckered, except that, you would literally be arguing that a particular cause (sticking needles here and there) did not in truth trigger their brain into healing them (your claim above). And that's plainly foolish. People got better somehow. Whether it was their brain, or chi flowing through meridians, or Tinker Bell sprinkling fairy dust on them in their sleep, in no way alters the observed effect: they got better after needles where stuck in them.

nzric

22-Nov-2004, 09:36 AM

Akimac - I think the point Yoda was making is like the old "icecream/sexual assault" connection:

In summertime people tend to eat more icecream. Also, summer is also traditionally matched with a statistical rise in sexual assault.

Does that mean if we ban icecream we'll reduce the rate of sexual assault?

aikiMac

22-Nov-2004, 06:05 PM

Does that mean if we ban icecream we'll reduce the rate of sexual assault?
:eek: I never thought of that!
But ice cream, and sex ... I bet a marketing person could do something with that.

woodrow

04-Dec-2004, 03:24 PM

That is where they stereotypical "big muscular guy is dumb" comes from. It is not a stereotype. Their brains do not function optimally because they have been squished and squeezed from weightlifting.

you're not serious are you?

Sure I am serious. It all depends on how you view your body. I am having a heck of a time thinking of a good explanation. I have written two down and completely erased them so far. Hmmm..... I can explain it in a bunch of different ways but they will be confusing.

Have you ever seen a four leaf clover? It looks like this.

http://www.siriusweb.com/PSP6/clover.gif

You will have to do this with your imagination so take your time and thorough.

Here is a picture of a human back.

http://members.home.nl/ruudkerkhof/consigment/Torso_backside__Omrand__800.jpg

Maybe if you open two browsers with each picture side by side it will help?

In your imagination, turn the four leaf clover so that it aligns with the human back. In your mind, you want to rotate the clover to your right side about 30 degrees.

You should see that each lobe of the clover is sort of aligned on the human back. The two upper lobes are on each shoulder blade and the two lower lobes are on the buttocks. Pretty interesting, neh? In the center of the upper lobes of the clover is where the neck is on the human body.

In your imagination, or draw it if it helps, think of the lobes of the clover as being big enough so that a part of them overlaps the neck area. It will look like the rounded top part of the lobe is to the outside of the head. The line from the top of the lobe back into the center follows a curve that is reminescent of the curve from the curve formed by the neck. Coincidental huh?

So now you should either be imagining or have draw a big 4 leaf clover on the back of the human body so that the lobes cover the buttocks and shoulder blades, while part of the upper lobes is overlapping the neck or maybe even the head.

Imagine that where the lobes intersect in the center? Imagine there is a string on each side. Each side of each lobe curves into the center right? At the bottom of those curves, image a string hanging there.

What will happen if you take one of the two uppermost strings on the uppermost clover lobes, the ones that run down the side of the neck, and pull on them? They would pull that side of the clover lobe right? What happens to the clover lobe itself? The clover lobe will become smaller because you are pulling one side of it downwards.

What happens to the part of the clover lobe that overlaps the neck? It becomes shorter so that it no longer covers as much as the neck. This is the important part. When you initially draw or imagine the clover superimposed on the body, some percentage of the clover covers the neck. When you pull the string on the side of the clover and make the lobe smaller, the percentage covering the neck is smaller than it was.

This is why weightlifters get tight brains. Or anyone else that works out too much or works really hard.

Their muscles are like the strings on the clover lobe. As they work, the muscles get tighter and tighter. As they get tighter, they pull on the head and brain just like the string pulls on the clover lobe. Just like the clover lobe covers less of the neck when it is pulled, when the muscles pull real tight, the pull on the neck and brain is real tight.

Your brain is vertical. The animal brain is down at the bottom and the higher brain is...well it is higher, up at the top. The weightlifter guy, when he pulls his muscles tight, those muscles pull on the neck and brain and pull him down into the lower, the animal part of the brain. There is less "energy", less good stuff going to his brain and neck just like there is less of the neck covered by the clover lobe when you pull on the string.

That is one of the reasons that weightlifter guys can be real tense and aggressive. Their muscles are stretched tight so they are in pain all the time. The constant pain makes them angry and they want to take it out on people.

Also, weightlifting in and of itself is not bad. If you know what is going on, weightlifting can produce results. It is only if you do not understand what is going on with your body that weightlifting can cause problems. The weightlifting culture is all about how big and how fast. That is the road to pain. Pushing yourself too fast to do something to big for your body.

---
That is alot. It is probably confusing so I will leave it here. If you draw it with a pen and paper, the explanation will feel better. If your imagination is not vivid, that method won't work so efficiently. It is easy to get lost with the mental pictures.

Matt_Bernius

04-Dec-2004, 04:41 PM

It is probably confusing so I will leave.Truer words have never been said.

I'm setting up a lawnchair and going to get popcorn, cause I'm betting the response to this are going to be worth the wait.

I think someone just out Gip'd Tai-Gip and no BMX was involved....

- Matt

Knight_Errant

04-Dec-2004, 06:30 PM

'm setting up a lawnchair and going to get popcorn, cause I'm betting the response to this are going to be worth the wait.
Not from me- I'm officially above that now. It's beneath the dignity of anybody making consistent gains on a good program to respond to that kind of gibberish.

reikislapper

04-Dec-2004, 11:03 PM

Serious question here lol.
Does it hurt to have acupuncture or not as I'm thinking of giving in to the numerous people telling me to have a session to get over my fear of needles.
I am into healing in a big way and I've been told that it could sort a few problems out but it's the size of the needles that really bother me.

What sort of information would you look for to find a decent person who's not going to take the mickey out of you for this problem as I've got as far as the door of the treatment room and I had to leave cos I really freaked out and started to sweat through the fear. I admit I'm a bit of a wimp in this area but I'm willing to give it a go if I can find the right person to help me with this problem. Has anyone got any good advice on this one as I'm determined to beat this one soon.
lisa xx

Matt_Bernius

05-Dec-2004, 01:44 AM

It depends on the point. In general no. However, some points really, really hurt. My understanding, and Chris from CT who is a certified accupuncturist can offer a better explaination, is that those areas that need the most work often are the most painful.

In general the needles don't go in very far and are of extremely high gauge (?) and have coated surfaces to ensure no burrs. That all leads to a painless experience... unless you're a drop like me and start to play with them when the accupuncturist leaves the room.

- Matt

Chris from CT

05-Dec-2004, 11:43 PM

Serious question here lol.
Does it hurt to have acupuncture or not...

Hi Lisa.

An acupuncture needle is very tiny when compared to a western hypodermic needle that a doctor would use to give a shot with. Acupuncturists use a solid ("filiform") needle and do not inject anything into a patient. This means that it is much less painful to have an acupuncture needle inserted through the skin than a hypodermic. In general, a patient may feel nothing at all to a bug bite type sensation from the needle insertion. It's pretty cool to have patients say "let me know when you do it" and I already have the needle in. They are usually pretty surprised and relieved after that.

Another great thing about acupuncture today is that most acupuncturists use sterilized disposable needles. They use them once and then throw them away so the chance of any infection is the same as the western doctor's injection.

In general, acupuncture does not have to cause pain, but you may feel something. General feelings a person may feel may include a dull ache, throbbing, moving or radiating sensation at the insertion area.

Sensations that are not necessarily wanted would include a burning sensation or a sharp sensation that does not resolve within about 25 seconds. If this does happen, a simple repositioning of the needle can fix that issue.

Factors that would make you feel more or less during an acupuncture session...

Needle Size -
Length does not play a big role here. It is the thickness of the needle that will make a difference. Needles range from .12mm to .30mm+
"General Rule of Thumb" -
Larger gauge (thicker needle) = More sensation

Needle Quality -
Some lesser quality of needles may have microscopic burrs on them which would increase the sensation

Coating of Needle -
Some needles have a minute layer of silicone on them for easier insertion through the skin.

Points Used -
Matt is right that certain points are more active than others. Certain styles use distal points to ease other areas before going into the main area with needles.

Needle Stimulation Used -
When I say needle stimulation I am referring to the physical movement of the needle by the practitioner's hand (lifting, thrusting, twirling, etc)
"General Rule of Thumb" -
Longer stimulation and/or larger motions = More sensation

Style Used-
There are different styles of acupuncture in the world and some are more or less aggressive than others (Chinese, Japanese, French, Vietnamese, American, etc).

The Chinese styles, in general, like to have more "De Qi" (arrival of Qi) there by the patient will feel more stimulation from the needles. In addition, the Chinese will generally use larger gauge needles (see above).

The Japanese styles, in general, use smaller gauge needles. Also, some Japanese styles, especially in Kiiko Matsumoto's style, feel less from the needles because of less stimulation because they double check points against problem areas to make sure the points used and their directions will help the patient and their issue. By checking these points before, less needle stimulation is needed for treatment, therefore less sensation at the insertion point. For example, if a person came in for hypothyroidism, the practioner would check ST 9 for tenderness (this is considered a "reflex" for hypothyroidism). If there was tenderness, the acupuncturist would use their other hand to check a distal point somewhere else on the body to see if the tenderness gets better. If it does, then that point is used. If not, they re-check their location and direction or check another point.
"General Rule of Thumb" -
Chinese (more stimulation & thicker needles) = More sensation
Japanese (less stimulation & smaller needles) = Less sensation

Practitioner -
The practioner plays a big part of how much you will feel during your treatment session. Some people have a “heavy hand or soft hand” no matter what style they do. Don’t let style alone be your determining factor.

I'm thinking of giving in to the numerous people telling me to have a session to get over my fear of needles.

You're not alone. Many people have a fear of needles. :)

What sort of information would you look for to find a decent person who's not going to take the mickey out of you for this problem…

Check out…
http://www.nccaom.org/find.htm

The NCCAOM is the national accreditation organization for acupuncture and oriental medicine. Once you find someone, give them a call tell them what your condition is and about your issue with needles. They should be understanding about it because you won’t be the first.

I hope this helped. :)

woodrow

07-Dec-2004, 09:35 PM

Hiya matt! There is no reason for popcorn and a chair to watch the discussion. It is like pulling teeth around here to get people to be curious and ask insightful or revealing questions. There probably won't be any discussion to spectate at.

Since I got no questions on the previous explanation, let's try a different approach. The guy said to me "are you serious that a person's head gets squished and does not work right from weight lifting or other activities". I said yes and tried the explanation above.

Here is a picture of an army guy. I think that we will all agree that he is very strong looking. His has a big and thick neck, almost as big as his head is. His bones in his face are very strong looking, prominent, angular, pronounced. As is his chin.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/041206/480/nyet25012061331

We all agree that this man looks strong and could probably fight real good right? I said that strenuous work would affect the brain and it would not work right. Look at the picture again.

The man has a nice hat right? It looks kind of attractive bent over rakishly the way it is doesn't it? What if the hat is not bent over to be attractive? What if it is bent over because the guy's head is shorter on that side?

Look at it. Doesn't it look like one side of his head is big and strong and the side under the hat is smaller. Like there is a slope from one side of his head down to the other. Common sense tells us that the brain on the small looking side of the head must be small too, neh? If that side of the brain is small, it probably does not work normally.

If we agree the man's head looks squashed, how do we prove the man's head looks like that from weightlifting or working out too much? We can't prove that. But we can make an educated guess. We can look at how strong he looks, look at how the right side of his head is smushed and combine that with my claim that the strenous work causes the head to be smushed. The evidence matches my claim.

If you want to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, you have to prove it to yourself. You have to look around at people. Look who has smushed up heads, then see if they look strong, maybe weightlifters, or if something else caused it. You will find if you look around in history that many military forces have their hats just like this man. Bent over one side of the head as if that side of the head is smaller.

Think about it. What if that is how they condition the military guys? Let us say a scientists says, "a person with a smushed right side of his head will be aggressive and want to fight". The army says "great doc, how do we get them to have a smushed right side of the head?". Then the scientists go do some tests and come back and give the military guys the answer. They develop an exercise program to make the guys all get smushed heads on the right side.

Check the history books. There are lots of examples of military forces with caps bent like that. From all over the world. That would be evidence that humans from any race anywhere in the world become aggressive and violent if they have a squashed side of the head.

Matt_Bernius

07-Dec-2004, 09:46 PM

Thanks Woodrow. I really needed that.

Just curious, what's your take on Phrenology. http://pages.britishlibrary.net/phrenology/

- Matt

nzric

07-Dec-2004, 11:02 PM

woodrow, thanks for the post - it's the funniest thing I've read in ages. But what's squishy head beret wearing little brain angry people got to do with acupuncture?

Gryphon Hall

08-Dec-2004, 01:07 AM

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... <sniff> ... <snork> ... hahahahahahahahahahaha...

So funny, man!

aikiMac

10-Dec-2004, 02:08 AM

Just curious, what's your take on Phrenology.

It's the study of Walter's ... um, his um, certain orifice.
You know -- Charlie Sheen in "Men at Work."
It's not nearly as funny when you can't say the word.

Hey Woodrow, have you ever considered that the beret tilts like that because it was sewn that way at the beret factory? Have you considered that the fashion designer actually designed the beret to hang like that? My dad has a beret. My dad was an Army Ranger and a Green Beret (Army Special Forces). I kinda sorta know what a beret looks like when it's not on a person's head, and guess what: they're sewn to hang that way!

Geesh.

woodrow

10-Dec-2004, 03:55 PM

Thanks Woodrow. I really needed that.

Just curious, what's your take on Phrenology. http://pages.britishlibrary.net/phrenology/

- Matt

Just skimming it, ya it is real. I think someone else brought that up in an attempt to thwart me one time. His point was that "scientists have debunked phrenlogy". I told him, of course they have. It is part of making people stupid so they are easily controlled.

Tell people there is no such thing as telepathy. There is no such thing as control of others. There is no such thing as chi. There is no such thing as magic. Acupuncture is for fools. Phrenology is a hoax.

Just think about it. All of those things represent power. If you have telepathy, can control others, can describe a person based on the shape of their head(phrenology), manipulate chi; if you can do any of that, you have power. And you got it by accident of birth or training. You did not have to ask permission from a college or an academy for your power. Doctors pay 20,000 to get power via a medical education. A person with mental telepathy has lots more power than a doctor will ever have, and he got it for free.

A person with power represents trouble for people who desire to control society. Therefore they have to be stopped. You tell them lies about what power is available. You test for them in school so you can stop them. Did you ever do those "just for fun" telepathy tests in school? Once the adults zero in on who has power, they can manipulate the student to prevent their power from growing. The student is a captive, attendance in school is compulsory. Didn't you ever wonder why schools are allowed to be filled with violence these days? It is so the violent ones repress the talented ones. Talent needs peace and quiet and understanding and cultivation. Can't do any of that when there are thugs interfering with the teacher teaching class or beating up the kids who are developing.

There is a lot of stuff out their in the world. Why do people talk about it in the first place? You always hear how all legends are based on some truth. Maybe parts of phrenology are false, but the basic idea, that you can determine things about a person by looking at the shape of their head, is absolutely true.