Discipline and Respect in the Dojo...

[Melanie]

Hello All,

I recently found this post on another forum and wondered what your thoughts were on the subject. What would you do in the place of this instructor and students, would you feel compelled to say something to this student also?

"Friday night I came across possibly the most irritating student I’ve ever met. He turned up the week before so this was his second lesson although it appears he has spent some time (a few months) studying ‘Kung Fu’ (he didn’t know what style). This was the first time I had been given the pleasure of teaching him so after a few basic techniques I decided to go through his first form with him.

He immediately told me that somebody had shown him that last week and suggested that he move on to the next one. I tried to explain that he may have to repeat these forms quite a few times before he would be ready to move on, so he grudgingly started to follow my moves.

I noticed that whenever I did a technique with a closed hand, he would do it with an open hand so I tried to correct him, only to be told that when he did Kung Fu they did everything with an open hand and that it was better that way. I explained to him that these were traditional forms and had to be learnt the way they were intended not changed at will after 2 lessons I also attempted to explain that the closed hand could be delivering a strike as well as blocking all of which seemed to go in one ear and out of the other as he continued to do everything with open hands.

After a while I decided to abandon the form and show him some one steps, only for each demonstration to be greeted with a comment like “oh I wouldn’t do it like that“

We have a policy in the club that we try to be tolerant and patient with beginners and try to bring them into the swing of things gently but this guy is likely to stretch my patience to the limits.

Has anybody else out there had this type of student turn up ? and if so what’s the best way to deal with him ? or should I just send him on to his next club?"

[Andy Murray]

I think I'd suggest a style along the street, in need of an Assistant Coach. Take it on the chin, and admit that this is a much better style. Run by a chap called Chazz!

The art of fighting without fighting!

[waya]

I would work with him until he either learned correctly, or became unworkable. Chances are when he finds he will not advance until doing it right he will either do it or leave on his own.

Rob

[Ozebob]

Hi Melanie,

Its hard to know what one would in that situation as is depends on the compatibility of the student to the dojo.

In the example you give, I would have suggested they guy go elsewhere and changed the lesson to joint-locks :)

Regards,
Bob

[Saz]

Send him to my dojo and let him say that to any of our instructors... Beginner or no beginner, he'd have spent the rest of the lesson in the corner doing push ups.

Often beginners come along who think they know more than the instructors... we only have one in our dojo at the moment, but its enough. He's got this, 'I'm better than you attitude'. I really dislike beginners like that. The rest of the white belts are great kids.

If i was his sensei I would have told him if he thought Kung Fu was so great then sod off back to it.

Osu :)

Sarah

[waya]

I wouldn't just dislike a beginner like that....... That attitude is bad no matter where it comes from. It may also be something he got from his previous instructor and if so, that can be worked out of him. I think everyone deserves at least some effort in teaching them.

Rob

[Chazz]

We had a guy like that come to ours but wassnt as bad as that. He liked a lot of open hand techniques and he liked to try them in forms as well as sparring. I kept trying to tell him, this is TKD we work with a solid fist. I kept getting the same answers back from him. It feels better open, i like it better open, you can do more with it open. This went on class after class. Me fixing his forms and stopping sparring matches time and again. Finally i went to prove a point. I told him that i was going to let him spar open handed and not say any thing about it. Twenty seconds or so into the fight he tried to block an ax kick open handed, and jammed two of his fingers. I stopped the match and asked if he was ok and wanted to stop. He said he wanted to keep goin. Again just a few minutes into the fight he jammed them up again. I stopped the match and took him aside and looked at his fingers. He kept wanting the finish the fight so..... I taped his hands up to where he had to fight with a closed fist and he ended up just about winning the match. Later i took him aside and told him that if his fist would have stayed closed his fingers wouldnt be so sore. Then i showed him when if good to use open hand, suck as grabs and take downs.

Sometimes with someone older you cant really tell them how to change something (hard headed people) you just have to make them see it your way and them make themselves want to change.

Chazz

[Kosokun]

I'd simply have a sit down talk with the guy. I'd tell him about my dojo, style and training methodology. I'd also tell him that whatever he did before, I don't do that. I do what I do here, and not what he did there. If he had genuine questions about what it was we were doing, then he needed to be adult about when he chose to ask his questions. His questions are welcome, disrupting the class isn't and it isn't the behavior of a mature adult. He'd be expected to behave as a mature adult if he was to participate in my classes. Armed with this info, he could then make an informed choice as to whether to stay or go elsewhere, with the understanding that if he stayed a particular behavioral standard was to be maintained.

Thus far, I've never had to show anyone the door.

Rob

[Cooler]

Discipline and Respect play a big part in the martial arts as far as I am concerned. As an instructor you are teaching an individual to defend themselves and fight possibly with the use of deadly force, now if that person can not show any discipline or respect at the basic level then I would have to seriously ask if that person should be taught the martial arts.

Cooler

[Chazz]

I believe that any student that is not in the class just so he can learn to "fight" but is in it to learn will not let himself/herself be kicked out. A true student will try to follow to class.

[pesilat]

I've seen a few incidents similar to the one you describe, Malanie.

One was my instructor's son, Donnie. He had never really had much training (was raised by his mom after divorce) but thought he knew some things. In his second class (he was 15 or 16 at this point) Guru Ken (my instructor) told his son to do a drill (called Angle 1 Hubad Lubad) with me. Donnie said, "I already know that." Guru Ken said, "You don't know squat until I decide you know it. Do the drill." Then he winked at me and said, "Show him a little of what he doesn't know about Hubad." A few minutes later Donnie realized how little he knew about the drill.

Another guy came to our school. He was 20. He'd gotten a black belt in something else at 14 and thought he knew it all ... and obviously what he had was better than what we had. I couldn't figure out why he was even in our school ... but I never found out. We were very patient with him but he wouldn't listen to anything we had to say. He wasn't blatantly disrespectful ... but after a couple of weeks we were all pretty fed up with him.

Guru Ken pulled me aside and said, "Go spar this guy. See what he has and what he doesn't. Then show him a little bit of what you've got." We sparred for 3 minutes. In the first 2 minutes, he didn't show me anything. I hit him at will and didn't even work up a sweat mounting defenses against the few pitiful attacks he did throw. After those 2 minutes, he was doubled over and sucking wind (surprised me because he *looked* like he was in good shape). After he caught his wind, we started up again. Then he suddenly stepped things up. What I felt from him was, "OK. I've seen what he's got now I'm going to show him what I've got and teach him a thing or two." He stepped into high gear and moved in. Before he even fired a punch, I stepped in, trapped his hands against his chest, then slapped him in the side of the head with an open hand shot that caught his temple and buckled his knees. The only reason he didn't hit the floor was because he managed to catch hold of a heavy bag nearby. We never saw him again after that day ... and we were heartbroken, let me tell you :-)

Mike

[waya]

Sometimes people just beg for education LOL

[pesilat]

Originally posted by waya
Sometimes people just beg for education LOL

LOL ... yup ... and who am I to neglect their educational needs :-)

Mike

[Freeform]

Most of my instructors/sensei wouldn't tolerate that sort of behavior, and I've been in Mike's position before. We had a guy come into one of our clubs with a previous Dan grade looking to turn us into his training 'bitches' so he was treated with complete contempt and just bounced about for a few weeks, he never came back, shame.

You have to balance respect for other styles with respect for what your doing now. If what you've done before is so superior then you should go back to it.

Thanx

[Chazz]

They need to know that if they are a student they are there to learn not to continue other style that they study in that class.

[Saz]

"training 'bitches"....... I like it ;) lol

[Thomas Vince]

Melanie,
Before I can say anythign about this I have some questions.
1. How old is he?
2. What is his family situations? Married, single, Live at home, Mom and Dad in the house?
3. What are his goals and why did he come to your studio?
4. Is he now paying or is in a special introductory program?
5. What was it that he liked about his old school and why did he leave.

I think if you can answer some of these questions you might find the right answer all by yourself. Live long and prosper.
Yours in the Spirit of Kenpo,
Thomas

[Melanie]

Hiya Thomas,

I'm sorry, I cannot answer these questions :( I found this post on another forum and saw that it had a very varied response and wondered what the crowd on this forum would say. Very good points though to bring up. I wonder what differences any of the above would make to the type of student the instructors would experience?

"If my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon" - Scotty, Star Trek III.

Melanie

[Freeform]

How do you restore discipline? Say your clubs become very relaxed, how do you as an instructor regain control without looking like a ***t! Has anyone else had this problem.

Also disciplining kids, whats the best method? I've got my own ideas here but I'm after yours!

Thanx

[fluffydoc]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Freeform
[B]How do you restore discipline? Say your clubs become very relaxed, how do you as an instructor regain control without looking like a ***t! Has anyone else had this problem.

Thinking of any club in particular?
The Phil Newcombe sit up approach seems to work.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

We had this problem for a while. Pressups seem to be a fairly good answer, as does public humiliation. When I say that I don't mean stripping people naked and tying them to lamp posts but if, for example, someone forgets to bow to an instructor we occasionally simply call that person back loudly and make sure that they do bow. Its very rare for people to repeat breaches of ettiquette or discipline after something like that.

[Freeform]

The sitting at the door if your late is a very traditional Japanese thing, you wait until your instructor calls you into the class and normally they'll use you as Uke (partner/victim) for most of the class. I've used a varation of this on the kids/younger adults (never had any bother with the 20+ groups), if one acts up I come over get quite intense and ask them why the aren't working, I' then make them sit at the side of the mat for the rest of the class, and then tell them if they're not interested to not come back (usually in front of they're parents!) the kid normally starts to sniffle (older ones go white and won't talk) and tells you how much they like what they're doing and you give them a little encouraging smile and tell them you'll see them next class. This works for me, how about anyone else!

Yeah, I've also used the 'If one of you do something out of line, the whole class does press ups' (ala Phil's sit ups). This usually works in adult classes but can build up resentment in kids classes!

Thanx

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Not the whole class, just that one kid, while the rest of the class continues training around them.

[Thomas Vince]

I think in the beginning it is okay to use exercise for corporal punishment and depending upon the offense I would use judgement in the use of discipline. Students come to the martial arts to learn "self-discipline", and that should be done first and foremost with compassion.
It is hard especially if you have been exposed to an Instructor who demands respect as if he or she were divine, but I beleive that respect is earned and not given.
With children, many times "we" as the Instructor are lacking and we need to find a way to motivate that child to learn. I would never publicly humiliate a child, trust is another important factor of winning a child over. There are constructive ways of disciplining a child that acts up and those are done with firmness of facial expression and tonality levels. But the first time I react to a childs time of non-focus is with a smile a "fun" or happy tone and I get them pointed in the right direction. Children will constanly need to be re-directed by you and that will never stop until they have "self-discipline". If an Adult does not have the ability to focus after the age of 14 or 15 there are issues! Address them off the mat in private and if that doesn't work, use the other students that have discipline to help show the way.
Remember that every student wants to feel that they are progressing and that they are being rewarded for that. Belts, stripes, special priviledges will often motivate children to listen and this gets them "goal oriented" and aware that with hard work comes the rewards.
You can also use a phrase and a key word with children that will crush them. The phrase is "Johnny I am disappointed in you." Children want the approval of their parents and they do not want to disappoint them, approval is also way of a child feeling that they are good and loved by their parents.
This is not a simple issue, in fact it is quite difficult to find the ways to discipline and motivate your students, but it is the "KEY" to your success and the success of your art!
We can as Instructor can merely show the way by example and guidance we cannot travel the path for them.
Yours in the Spirit of Kenpo.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Strangely it seems that most of the kids enjoy the pressups or other exercises, taking some sort of strange pride in them.

[Thomas Vince]

This is tough Melanie, a situation where a student says comments like "Oh, I wouldn't do it that way." He may not have much respect for women and has a problem with his own manhood.
Otherwise, he is just like I as a kid. I asked questions all the time, and I did it in every situation I found myself in. The instructors who did not have a logical answer or comparison were tossed to the side by my own internal and physical experiences, remember I was a street fighter before ever getting into martial arts and when I started the MA's my unorthodoxed manner beat many a student. Thats why Kenpo stuck with me, because the student's kicked my ass, when I had an question the instructor had the answer. He made Kenpo logical for me. He made it work for me and taught me to be a sophisticated fighter not a brawler, there is a difference.
Another point might be that because he is so self conscious he is afraid to do something different for fear of making to many mistakes.
People learn in three ways
Visual
Auditorial
Kinetic
We have to find the key to how the brain processes it's muscle memory and more importantly how the person goes through the motivational process in order to learn. Example ask a simple question:
"When you felt totally motivated to do something, was it something you had seen, something you had heard or something that you felt inside?"
Some people will say " I saw them doing it and I said to myself, yeah I want to do that.
Some people will say, well I heard this music and saw what they were doing and I said, hey I want to do that.
Yet others will say that when I walked in I just felt that it was the right thing to do for me.
Everyone learns in these three ways.
If you are dealing with a person who learns visuallly they talk quickly, because a picture says a thousand words and they have to get it all out quickly, they are moving fast and are masters of multi-tasking and can be quite exhausting to others. A person who learns or is motivated by what they hear will be more apt to pay attention to tonality and not really be as motivated by what others around them say, as much as what they are saying in their own head and what they hear from someone else. The auditory person says things like it just doesn't sound right to me. Lastly the kenetic person truly clashes with the visual because they are on the opposite side of the spectrum. They pause a great deal, speak slowly, enunciate their sentences and say phrases like, it feels right or it just doesnt feel right.I need to get a feel for this first. The key to super learning is to become a person who communicates and learn in all three ways. Now that the long winded commentary is over,
WHEW!
Discipline takes practice and sometimes if you feel the student is worth keeping set up a private so that the instructor can show why movements should be done in a specific manner and allow interaction and questions. Questions are good provided we can turn into a productive and positive direction. On the other hand if the student is just plain stubborn it is not his time to learn and toss him out because he stinks up the rest of the class.
To sum it up peaople learn in these ways and then they have a proof system where they will believe it. Example some people need to hear it being said and then see it before they will believe it. Some people need to see it and then hear it from someone else before they believe it. And still others need to hear it twice, see it once and then feel it inside before they beleive it. Can be quite complex never-the-less this how we are motivated and create our own internal beleif systems. Hoped this helped.
Talk with you soon.

[Freeform]

You can also use a phrase and a key word with children that will crush them.
The phrase is "Johnny I am disappointed in you."



Heh heh, crush them. Only joking, I'm gonna try this one out, cheers Thomas.

[Rowlie]

To quote J.M. Barrie; 'I'm not young enough to know everything'.

[Chazz]

Question:
Go to the topic of keep a school in line and Discipline and Respect in the Dojo. I have found that it easier to keep the younger students in line but what do you do about the older ones.

I havent had this problem yet but i am an YOUNG instructor (20 in oct) and i do feel that i am run into this problem. (The "kid" teaching the "adults") I hope that you understand what i am saying!

PLEASE, IDE LOVE TO HEAR ALL OF YOUR THOUGHTS!!!

[pesilat]

Originally posted by chazz982001
Question:
Go to the topic of keep a school in line and Discipline and Respect in the Dojo. I have found that it easier to keep the younger students in line but what do you do about the older ones.

I havent had this problem yet but i am an YOUNG instructor (20 in oct) and i do feel that i am run into this problem. (The "kid" teaching the "adults") I hope that you understand what i am saying!

PLEASE, IDE LOVE TO HEAR ALL OF YOUR THOUGHTS!!!

Treat everyone with respect. Students (regardless of age) will genearlly return this respect.

Remember that, while an older student may (or may not) have more life experience, they don't (likely) have your knowledge or experience in what you're teaching.

Age is irrelevant. For all intents and purposes, you're a high school graduate and they're still in school. You have something to teach them.

Now ... this one's important ... even *if* they are senior to you in the system you're teaching ... it *doesn't matter.* If you're the one teaching then, at that moment, for that class, you're "the man." No one else in the world has your specific perspective and understanding of the material because no one else in the world is you. Therefore, everyone, regardless of age, experience, rank, whatever ... *everyone* has something to learn from you. When you're teaching ... all you have to worry about is communicating your perspective.

If you're respectful while communicating your perspective then the audience will, generally, be respectful in return. Answer all questions honestly and sincerely ... even if the answer is, "I don't know" But never be afraid to continue with, "let's see if we can figure it out."

I honestly feel that if you follow these guidelines, everything else will tend to fall into place. What doesn't fall into place will be very situational and you'll have to think on your feet.

Mike

[Chazz]

Thanks, thats the way i have been doing things, i guess thats why i havent had troubles yet.

thanks Mike

[KarateKid1975]

chazz982001 wrote:

"I havent had this problem yet but i am an YOUNG instructor (20 in oct) and i do feel that i am run into this problem. (The "kid" teaching the "adults") I hope that you understand what i am saying!"

Hey Chazz. I did have a problem with a few "younger" instructors in my last school. They had an ego trip, like their s**t didn't stink. They talked during class instead of teaching (or helping the master instructor). One girl had no respect for anyone.

I'm sure you aren't like this (at least, I hope not). If you treat everyone with respect, as Pesilat said, I don't see a problem with it. There were two good younger instructors in my last school (outta the 6). They were awsome. So, there's two different types of young instructors. The ones who are serious, respectful, and care about their students, which if they are younger than me, I wouldn't mind, cause they are respectful. Then there's the ones that are ..... well, kids. They still have the "teen attitude" which doesn't belong in the dojang.

[Melanie]

Hiya Laurie,

I have never met Chazz, let alone been trained by him, but I have to say that he has been the model Instructor when dealing with him on the forum and in private to. He comes accross as very patient and explains his techniques clearly and I have found him to be very professional. I am a "few" years older than him and I am certain I would be happy to take instruction from him. Although I have to admit I have met the very people you described too in the past. It such a shame too, they had such good technique, but couldn't teach without patronising everyone in the class.

The only thing I had to get over when talking to Chazz was the accent! That Georgia drawl...oh boy! ;)

[Chazz]

*LOL*

Laurie: Out of class i do love to joke around, have fun, be me. IN class im another person. While the whit is still there im very serious dure to the sace that i live for what i do and i dont want to see my studnets hurt. I do all that i can to show respect to everyone in and out of class. I do thank you all for the advice and i hope to get more from the instructors and STUDENTS as well.

MEL: Its always you that brightens up my day. Thanks for what you said. I hope that i am as good as your say i am!

[sfjohn]

You know chazz, I also am a young instructor, just turned 23 in may. I have been instructing since I was about 17. This just happened on its own, if someone wanted to know something about the art they would come and ask me because I have been with my teacher since I was about 8. One thing I have noticed is that it is very hard for an older person with more life experience to learn from a younger person and this can sometimes cause disiplinary problems. I see this problem in new students that are muc older then me. The first step to teaching old dogs new tricks is to learn from them and as a show of your appreciation, you teach them on the mats. So on the mats, your the teacher, off the mats, they are the teacher. Ask them questions about themselfes after class, use them to help you progress in life as you help them progress in martial arts.

Showing mutual respect is key to helping the older person grow as a martial artist and will create a bond between you two. This bond helps communication that will build a strong student teacer relationship both ways.

Sometimes I get a person who just doesn't get it, and I have to show why I am the instructor and just what got me to this position. When I was young I learned very tough disipline from my teacher, and I remember all the ways of doing this. I will basically run this person into the ground (with me doing the same things to run this guy into the ground). I bring out all the little goodies that I learned with (the stick, medicine ball, staff, and the bamboo sword). I basically run this guy through a tenth of what he will go through at blackbelt in the system. Basically I tear him or her down phisically, mentally and spiritually, through extreme phisical workout, the way they break is first physically where their body starts giving up on them. Then they break down mentally once their mind can no longer analyze all the stimulus, the pain, the tiredness, the reasoning behind anything. All they are left with is spirit to keep them going and eventually this starts to deminish to the point where they can go no longer and collapse. At this point the person is broken completely and don't be supprised if you see a growen man cry, I have seen it many times. This is when you become pivitol in helping that person develop. You help them up, shower them with love and give them confidence building comments and tell them how great they were and what a tough an strong person they are to go through that kind of self torture. Tell him that this is where the bonds of brotherhood are formed, through blood, sweat, and tears. Show him respect by getting him water or ice or help massage some mussles for him/HER (sorry ladies, it's societies school literature that conditioned me to always write him even when I mean him/her). This shows that you respect the person for just being human. This is where the bond of respect and the notion of self disipline are truly formed. The respect usually comes from the older persons psyche that you saw them break and this always generates a great deal of repect in that person because you helped them in some way to truly discovering theirself. I'm sure I left a lot out of this but i'm tired, so adios. -John

[Sonshu]

There would be no forms and he would get his butt kicked on a regular basis.

I would not risk him causing problems with other students and just let him get on with it - time is short enough for us all but I guess I would have asked him why he wanted to come and wanted to get out of it.

Cross training can be a curse sometimes if people are not patient - for me I love it but understand that whilst I am doing somthing in someones dojo or class I will do it as asked to the best of my ability - I am taking there time up not the other way.

If I did not agree with what I was shown - I might ask for other ways it is applied (after the lesson or then depending on the style of instruction given).

Still he did sound a bit of a Div and I would guess he had trained in Kung fu for a while to make that sort of statement or to be saying he would do it another way - still there are people who are a little on the questioning side :D

SONSHU

[KickChick]

Originally posted by sfjohn
(sorry ladies, it's societies school literature that conditioned me to always write him even when I mean him/her). .....This shows that you respect the person for just being human. This is where the bond of respect and the notion of self disipline are truly formed. The respect usually comes from the older persons psyche that you saw them break and this always generates a great deal of repect in that person because you helped them in some way to truly discovering theirself. I'm sure I left a lot out of this but i'm tired, so adios. -John


... you are excused John ;)


I don't feel indignant in any way being taught by a younger instructor.... and I am taught by a younger fellow instuctor on occasion.
But I can take what you say John in a different way. As far as instructing an older person .... and I am talking old maybe older than you are referencing (and in our school we have 3 or four students over the age of 50) you have to realize their physical limitations. I don't see any respect for your student if you know that he can't physically do a certain technique but choose to "break" him (or her) possibly causing them injury ('breaking' them literally in this case).... and on top of that embarassment.
They do have limitations .... as far as flexibility, coordination & endurance.
I mean even our oldest instructor experiences pain after his many many years of training in Tae Kwon do.
So what is the truly 'respectful' way to handle this situation??

[sfjohn]

I never had to break a much older say 50yrs type of person. I have never even had problems with them. The people I get the problem with are usually in their early or late thirties. Imake sure they don't feel ashamed if tears do happen to come out, because after all I have cried after being broken once infront of a whole room of people. Do I feel ashamed of it, of course not, because at that moment I truly had a moment of clarity and understanding. I have never done this degree of breaking down students in front of an audience, I always make sure no one is around, or else that personmight feel embaresed and will leave. As for the pain, even though I am still very young I have constant pain in my upper and lower back, my hips and ankles just to name a few and my recovery rate has dropped immensely (probably from all the years of being an Uke for my teacher and other masters). Not only that but after this gruleing experience I share my oun stories of running myself into the ground and i have a lot of them. It is sort of a purification ritual for me. I do it at least once or twice a year. On knowing this they usually show a lot of respect in knowing that I continue to develop my oun mind body and spirit, and I reciprocate this respect by acknowlegeing that I recognize the strength of character needed to get through one of these purification rituals.

-John

[Bon]

hehe, I agree that breaking a person will get a lot of respect from them :D

[SoKKlab]

I didn't have time to read all the posts in the strand, so apologies if I am repeating anything that someone has said previously...

Mostly this is a case of the style not being right for that person, it's up to them to realise that and not attend. If they don't, then, it's up to someone to point it out to them, hopefully with tact, depending upon how vexing they are and what your Blood sugar levels are like that day...

Some people seem to go to Martial Art classes (And Forums) just to argue with other people. Admittedly not a good attitude to have, but quite common.

Classes are a tricky situation for Instructors and students. Students often think that they 'wouldn't do it that way' and may say so. Admittedly this would go against etiquette in most Dojos and Classes. Most people these days do not automatically defer to Authority, just because they are obligated to do so and do not understand the discipline inherent within Martial Arts classes.

I myself have thought the same kind of things when attending classes when I was younger and have ended up leaving certain systems because ultimately I felt that the answers that I was being given to my queries were not satisfactory and that the benefits to me in attending a particular Martial Art, were outweighed by the pitfalls.

But I would never openly criticise someone who was teaching a class and I would try not to disagree with them, even if I felt that they were talking complete bollocks...

Although I would ask questions when it felt appropriate to do so. A former Kung Fu instructor of mine used to ask, after demonstration of a technique, if anyone had any questions.

This tactic was a double-edged sword, as although it gave specific answers, it also opened an entire new can of worms and he did spend a disproportionate amount of time giving explainations and sometimes convincing other people of the why's and wherefores and why we do it this way.

As an Instructor you can just simply refuse to teach people. Or agree with them upon a probationary period to see if things work out (Probably a good idea for all students). A 'The Management has the right to refuse admission' type scenario.

This is not a 'Students must agree with me or else scenario' , but you have to take into account the vibe of the entire class and if it is being offset by the actions of an individual.

Or if someone is repeatedly and purposely doing something that is disruptive, malicious or plain stupid, be they a beginner or a higher grade. Be it their first lesson or their thousandth.

Recently, I attended a class and this sort of thing occured. Someone had turned up, a new member who proclaimed to have a load of experience.

Firstly, during the course of the lesson, this person started openly arguing with the Instructor about the techniques they were doing. Then they proceeded to give their views as to why. To his credit the Instructor was gracious and patient.

This person wanted to spar and during said sparring session, they repeatedly used very heavy contact and clearly had no respect for the other students.

After several requests to calm down, the Instructor asked him to leave (Unfortunately it's usually a him). He said words along the lines of ' No way', so the instructor had Building Security make him leave.

He had already split two lips, bloodied a couple of noses and cracked an elbow into somebody's mouth. This being a Muay Thai class.

I felt that the instructor did the right thing in this case and acted Professionally.

The miscreant was very lucky that he wasn't training with my first Muay Thai instructor years ago. He just used to knock people out if they came along to the classes and were behaving like idiots. Admittedly a more direct approach, that is equally effective, although morally ambiguous....

[gardon]

man, spar nothing. If i was a student at a dojo and someone was treating my sensei like that, I'd flippen beat the kids head in. plus the sensei, hopefully, would appreciate me doing it

[Timmy Boy]

I think it's often best just to let people find these things out for themselves when they don't listen the first time. They have to realise that good instructors say these things for a reason. Let them try sparring without keeping their hands up and see what happens.

If they still persist then I guess they're just bad students. Either you want to learn what someone's teaching you or you don't.