Weight Distribution in Form ?

[ZillaBilla]

Hello All,

What sort of weight distribution do you use in your form (most of the time) ?

I started off with 70% 30%, but now I progressively try and move towards 100% 0%. The reason I switched was that during some of my reading I came across some reading that basically said that the Yang family used a distribution of 100% 0% , and I figured that you’re probably supposed to start with 70% 30% and work your way up. Anyway what do you do, and what are your thoughts on this?

[Graifox]

whats weight distrabution?

[johndoch]

whats weight distrabution?

Its the weight on each leg 50:50 would be letting your body weight fall equally down each leg. 70:30 would be 70% of you weight on one leg and 30% on the other. 100:0 would be carrying all your weight on one leg etc...etc...etc...

[nzric]

I think it should always be 70:30. The reason is if you're doing 100:0, it'll take you too much time to change posture/step, and the reason for the 70:30 is deceptive stepping, where you have the potential to move in any direction.

I use 100:0 a lot while I'm doing the form for qigong (or at least 99:1!). It's good exercise and it helps centre you, but from a martial pov, definitely 70:30.

Maybe the books were talking about advanced fajing, where you'd go to 100:0 at the end of the strike then coil back?

[Stone]

Just a quick question, wouldn't 100:0 makes you a easy target??

Since you are putting your weight on one foot, wouldn't it make it easier for your opponent to catch your balance and destroy it??

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Shadowdh]

I use what ever weighting is called for in the posture as a part of the form... eg I start with 50/50 then 70/30 and then 100/0 it changes as my form flows... in most postures though its 70/30...

[ZillaBilla]

Just a quick question, wouldn't 100:0 makes you a easy target??

Since you are putting your weight on one foot, wouldn't it make it easier for your opponent to catch your balance and destroy it??


That’s what I figured at first as well, but then if the opponent can catch the 70:30, they would still have the majority of your centre, so I'm not too sure if it would really make too much difference. In other words they get either all or the majority, which in any case is enough to put you off balance, I guess the trick to staying balanced is more in sensitivity and reacting quickly, than the actual weight distribution, then again maybe not.

[MartialArtsSnob]

I use what ever weighting is called for in the posture as a part of the form... eg I start with 50/50 then 70/30 and then 100/0 it changes as my form flows... in most postures though its 70/30...

Yes Shadowdh, in fact at no point should your weight stop moving. The Idea of 70/30 or 90/10 or whatever is looking at POSTURES not MOVEMENT. Stopping in a posture (or moving really slowly) is for training purposes. If you are ever in a fight or a match and you are at 70/30 or any other static position you are going to be brought down by somone who has the sensitivity to feel your center. This is not to say that you don't move through these positions, but if you like postures try some karate, at least there you can "hold onto" the idea of postures for a great many years before they eventually tell you the same thing.

Iv'ecomeunstuckintimemartialartsnobout!

[ZillaBilla]

Hey MASnob,

I know what your saying, but at the end of day all form training is just that, form training, its not fight training. IMO it is there to teach your body how to move with the correct alignment and IMA's internal principles, resulting in that which is called free form, or formless form, which is spontaneous and reactive. I think if anyone was trying to use a form to fight with, they would probably loose.

[Shadowdh]

I understand what youre saying Zilla... but if you train with self defense in mind then you need to train as if fighting... also it cant become formless if you practice forms... so you shouldnt really have a stagnant or static place in the form... its always flowing and moving...

[daftyman]

When you mention weight distribution, in what posture are you referring?

If you put too much weight into the front foot in a forward 'bow stance' posture, chances are that you are overextending. This puts excessive strain on the knee joint, and eventually it will start to complain about it. Overextending would also be a bad thing in a martial sense as well.

When you refer to 100%:0% weighting, do you mean such that you could lift the empty foot without any other part of the body having to move?

having 100% in a back posture is fine as the forces acting on the joints are not too bad, but to try to achieve that in the forward postures would to my mind give problems in the future.

[ZillaBilla]

Hey Shadowdh,

From my experience, and that what I have seen in others, I would say that correct form training is what develops a formless form. However in order for this to be true, the state of mind in which you perform your form is paramount. I've noticed that when I train a lot and consistently, specifically getting in to a deep meditative state during form training, I find that for the next few days all my movement is in line with the form i.e. corresponding to the correct Tai Chi alignments, and internally the 'Qi' moves correctly accordance to the type of move. Also when one is surprised by a sudden movement or something of that sort, one instinctively reacts in a freeform which encompasses Tai Chi's principles, this reaction is not consciously controlled, but more like consciously viewed with the potential of stopping or altering it, but in essence it acts on its own. I've had several experiences of this sort, but the one I most notably remember was when I was in Tesco, trying to get some soy sauce of a shelf, one hand was holding the basket, the other was trying to get the bottle, I accidentally knocked one of the bottles which pushed several more, resulting in three falling bottles, my one hand and body manned to catch all three, I was merely observing and not consciously participating, if you got me to try and do that consciously I doubt I could even do two. From my discussions with higher level practitioners at our school, it seems to me that the real power of Tai Chi comes from that when it is ingrained in you, so that you can relax your mind and let you subconscious react to the stimuli in the best manner. Best manner being your subconscious mind (primordial), which once it is developed, can detect and analyze perfectly, in part due to lack of opinion or bias which is produced by the conscious (temporal). However I think that this freeform state is not completely subconscious, but a balance between the conscious and the subconscious, which I also think is the reason why the higher level practitioners can react instinctively, deliberately, and a combination of both. Once again though, I would like to state that I’m just beginner and all of this maybe completely wrong, it’s just what it seem like at the moment from where I’m standing, the only way to know for sure is to train a lot more

When you mention weight distribution, in what posture are you referring?

If you put too much weight into the front foot in a forward 'bow stance' posture, chances are that you are overextending. This puts excessive strain on the knee joint, and eventually it will start to complain about it. Overextending would also be a bad thing in a martial sense as well.

When you refer to 100%:0% weighting, do you mean such that you could lift the empty foot without any other part of the body having to move?

having 100% in a back posture is fine as the forces acting on the joints are not too bad, but to try to achieve that in the forward postures would to my mind give problems in the future..

Hey VRat,
I’m not referring to any specific posture, just the weight distribution that you most often come across/use in your form.

With regards to the ‘bow stance’, if the leg muscle is not strong enough, then there definitely is a tendency to lean forward to compensate.

When I refer to the 100%0% weighting I do mean such that you could lift the empty foot without any other part of the body having to move.

I guess there could be seeds for a knee problem if one uses the forward stance 100%0%, but I’m not too sure whether that would be negated if one’s legs were strong enough. As mentioned previously I was not taught this weight distribution but my info indicates that this is how the Yang’s trained, so I’m really not sure what to think.



Cheers All,

ZB

[daftyman]

Hey VRat,
I’m not referring to any specific posture, just the weight distribution that you most often come across/use in your form.

With regards to the ‘bow stance’, if the leg muscle is not strong enough, then there definitely is a tendency to lean forward to compensate.

When I refer to the 100%0% weighting I do mean such that you could lift the empty foot without any other part of the body having to move.

I guess there could be seeds for a knee problem if one uses the forward stance 100%0%, but I’m not too sure whether that would be negated if one’s legs were strong enough. As mentioned previously I was not taught this weight distribution but my info indicates that this is how the Yang’s trained, so I’m really not sure what to think.



Cheers All,

ZB
As an engineer, I had a look at the forces that would be going through the front knee if you tried to overextend. I checked on its anatomy as well. The knee is just not meant to take those kinds of forces. No matter the muscle strength, when you go past a certain point you are relying on the cartilage. The lower the posture the wors this can become.

I also could not see anyway of getting 100% of the weight into the front without leaning or really overextending.

The style I practice does have numerous instances where the weight is 100%, but this is never in a front bow stance.

One of the ideas I like is that the legs are like a second pump/heart (I think this comes from TCM). Shifting the weight from side to side 100% really gets the pump going, driving the chi (or whatever) around the body.


I've had a couple of cool taiji in action moments. My favourite is a time when I knocked a fork of the table and managed to catch it before it hit the ground. (without impaling myself!)

[Shadowdh]

Zilla that makes sense to me... but I am a beginner too... I have experienced the same sort of thing with my movement in day to day stuff...

[ZillaBilla]

Well, I think I will go back to the 70%30% in 'bow stance', I figure since moderation is a concept in Tai Chi it probably applies to not tearing a knee ligament too.

Thanks for the input.

ZB

[nzric]

Think about how difficult it has been to imitate biped movement in robots - that's one of the hardest things to replicate because the forces are so complicated. I agree with VR about trying to keep optimum balance, which is using both legs at practically all times.

[Mut Sao]

the line out of the tai chi classics is :"walk like a cat" a cat is dynamic in motion not static... talk of 70:30 ect is fine when first learning the postures of a form but once the form is learned weight needs to be dynamic it passes through the posture not stop at the posture. again think of a cat about to pounce on a bird it is not covering distance but is still moving... it is not stagnent nor double-weighted.

it must be understood that learning a form is like to drawing a picture when you first learn to draw you play join the dots with lots of straight(ish) lines creating a crude picture . then you move on to using one line moving through many dots until eventually you can draw the picture without the dots. anyway this is my take on it enjoy! :)

[daftyman]

nice post! I like the drawing analogy. I'll maybe use that when teaching.

[MartialArtsSnob]

the line out of the tai chi classics is :"walk like a cat" a cat is dynamic in motion not static... talk of 70:30 ect is fine when first learning the postures of a form but once the form is learned weight needs to be dynamic it passes through the posture not stop at the posture. again think of a cat about to pounce on a bird it is not covering distance but is still moving... it is not stagnent nor double-weighted.

it must be understood that learning a form is like to drawing a picture when you first learn to draw you play join the dots with lots of straight(ish) lines creating a crude picture . then you move on to using one line moving through many dots until eventually you can draw the picture without the dots. anyway this is my take on it enjoy! :)

Great post indeed! I wish that some of the people who critisize Traditional external Martial arts could see this point. I hear things like "Look at this position, why would you want to be in a position like that?" When in reality you should never "BE" in any position, just moving THROUGH it. TMA's just have bigger and closer together "Dots". Eh, Sao?

Snob

[Shadowdh]

the line out of the tai chi classics is :"walk like a cat" a cat is dynamic in motion not static... talk of 70:30 ect is fine when first learning the postures of a form but once the form is learned weight needs to be dynamic it passes through the posture not stop at the posture. again think of a cat about to pounce on a bird it is not covering distance but is still moving... it is not stagnent nor double-weighted.

it must be understood that learning a form is like to drawing a picture when you first learn to draw you play join the dots with lots of straight(ish) lines creating a crude picture . then you move on to using one line moving through many dots until eventually you can draw the picture without the dots. anyway this is my take on it enjoy! :)


A great post indeed...

[Mut Sao]

thx for the positive vibes guys :o i got a patent on the dots analogy (..or at least i wish i did) it seems to strike a chord with most people.

unfortunately it is often misunderstood in ma that a posture should be a pose... regardless of whether it is internal or external.

[MartialArtsSnob]

thx for the positive vibes guys :o i got a patent on the dots analogy (..or at least i wish i did) it seems to strike a chord with most people.

unfortunately it is often misunderstood in ma that a posture should be a pose... regardless of whether it is internal or external.

A photo op!

[Th3_GOD]

Someone said if you had 100:0 ratio wouldnt that amake you easily unbalanced? Well yes and no. You see, if weight distribution is zero on one leg, then if the enmy attacks their their is no balance their so you are easily still holding yourself. If he attacks the 100% leg then he will more likely fail also because theirs more pressure and weight in a single spot making it harder to move. Weight distribution largely depends on how you are styling your fighting, i would not want 0:100 distribution in "in your face up close and personal fighting", Under many circumstances unless my back foot weas their to fall back on. However for short to long distance fighting 100:0 can help in some cases. However as i said it depends on your style and preference of fighting. With 100% weight on one leg if you dont cover failing possiblilities he could unbalance you by use the 100% weighted leg as a fulcrum. You must secure yourself so this doesn't happen.

[nzric]

Yeah, but 100:0 restricts your speed of movement. Also, a lot of taiji stepping principles are of "deceptive stepping" where you've got the potential to move in any direction so the opponent is not aware (e.g. "leading into emptiness"). If you have 100:0 and the opponent notices, that gives him a big advantage as he knows about your limited range of subsequent moves/steps.

[Mut Sao]

you stagnate all weight on one leg you get chopped down... very simple. one of the strengths of tai chi is its potential for mobility.... like water it FLOWS

seriously i read a post on cyberkwoon in regard to your posts... are you for real? :mad: :bang:

[Syd]

I'd like to use a quote from one of Erles articles that sums up my feelings on this also...

The whole form is changing naturally anyway as you change your weight from foot to foot or within the same foot in order to satisfy one of the most important classics of "there must be weight change with every hand movement". This is probably the most important classic as this is true Yin and Yang. Postures that SEEM to be standing still on one foot for instance, aren't, as the weight is still changing from heel to ball of that same foot as the hands execute the movement.

Bada bing, bada boom.

[MartialArtsSnob]

I hear a lot of you guys saying that you should NEVER be 100% weighted on one foot. It begs the question "how do you step without moving to 100% on the other foot?". Furthermore how do you execute the kicking without doing so? I like the answer from Syd, I would add the rotation of the supporting leg as well.

[Shadowdh]

Perhaps MAS that it is better said that one should not have 100% weight that is stagnant... good post by Syd...