Hsing-i - let's hear from ya

[nzric]

Hi all,

I've always found that Hsing-i is severely unrepresented in this forum (probably because it's so difficult to find a good teacher, as I've found).

This is a general call-out to anyone with experience in Hsing-i - feel free to post anything about the art in here. Links are welcome, but it'd be better if you could relate your own personal experiences. :D

[Guo_Xing_Yi]

*stands up and get counted*

I like it.

[Vastian]

I don't do xingyiquan often but i like it because its straight forward and it is much easier to learn then other internal arts.

[xingyiboxer]

Dunno what to say ... go find a teacher and practice! :)

[Vastian]

Dunno what to say ... go find a teacher and practice! :)
Where you directing that to me, if so no thanx.
What i meant is that i liked it i just found another style that interested me more.

[xingyiboxer]

Where you directing that to me, if so no thanx.
What i meant is that i liked it i just found another style that interested me more.

Uh, sorry. Should have been clearer. I was responding to the topic.

[nzric]

That's the thing, there aren't many people who teach it at all. I thought it'd be helpful if anyone could give a run-down of the main principles and exercises of the art.

Open mic... :D

[xingyiboxer]

Honestly, xingyi is kindof boring. It has very few empty handed forms, and very few weapons sets.

According to one legend, it was originally taught to soldiers. According to another legend, it is a very secret style passed down through the Dai family from another style, xinyi.

Whatever you believe, the soldier story seems more correct judging by the contents of the forms and the techniques.

The base forms are known as the '5 elements'. These are basic techniques like a straight punch, an uppercut punch, etc. Then there are 12 animal forms, which are also pretty basic techniques.

Then there are combination forms, and weapons forms, but they're all very basic. The main idea behind xingyi is to hit your opponent as hard as you can, before he hits you. To drill these few basic techniques over and over and over again.

If you'd like more information I'd recommend Mike Patterson (www.hsing-i.com).

[xingyiboxer]

You know, honestly, having this kind of a forum about these martial arts is kindof a joke.

Taiji, bagua, xingyi ... Taiji is a watered down joke these days. It has what ... one empty handed form, one sword form (jian), and sometimes one staff form or something? Most of the people who do taiji don't even spar or fight.

Xingyi has like 5 very simple basic forms (1 move repeated), 12 slightly more complicated forms, a few combination forms, a few short weapons sets.

Baguazhang as it is taught in the U.S. at least has a few empty handed forms, along with one linear form. Most people know just a few of the weapons sets.

You'd probably be better off taking karate, or something like chow lay fut, Shaolin (from a reputable source ... not wushu), etc.

Xingyi as a starting martial art something like karate isn't bad, but you might as well just take karate. I had no idea it was so basic when I started.

[Ular Sawa]

I enjoyed learning Hsing I for several years. Unfortunately, I never got to any weapons forms and my teacher moved out of state. I still practice the empty hand forms. I believe you have to spend some time with them to gain an understanding of the art.

[Guo_Xing_Yi]

Interesting to think that you think it is so basic. If you came and trained with us - you wouldnt find it so basic im sure.

Sure the 5 elements ARE basic, but they were introduced by the Dai brothers just to palm off the hoarding wannabes saying 'teach me xin yi!', and to allow them to concentrate on teaching the _real_ students. But dont make the mistake of thinking that they aren't effective. They are - alike with all other individual techniques of xing yi - short and to the point.

The 12 animals however - there seems to be this misnomer, especially in the US, that the animals are again just short simple techniques. It is incorrect to think like that. Each animal employs their own strategy of fighting - methods for closing gaps, getting around people, dealing with blows, as well as delivering them - and to do this uses a hell of a lot of techniques. If we take the animal 'bear eagle' or xiong ying, we find that largely, the only technique that is known is the bear zuan, combined with eagle pi. For me, this comprises of only two techniques of perhaps about 50+ (i've not actually stopped to count them all in our 'official' sequence, but it lasts a good 3 minutes at normal 'stomp' speed).

Lets not forget, that this is only for the one animal, we still have 11 more to go, then we have all the 5 elements and 12 animals for spear, the same for sword, the same for zhan ma dao (big big sword), the same for tse (needles, like emei peircers), the same for archery, shields, daggers etc etc.

Suddenly it doesnt look so simple?

[gerard]

Hi all,

I've always found that Hsing-i is severely unrepresented in this forum (probably because it's so difficult to find a good teacher, as I've found)


Ric, not only Xingyi teachers are difficult to find but also:

1. Dragon Taijiquan
2. Wudang Taijiquan
3. Liou Ho Ba Fa Quan
4 Yin Yang Bapanzhang
5 Bagua Taijiquan
6 Xinyi Liuhe Quan
7 Cha Quan
8 Qi Shi Quan


Except arts number 2 and 3 you need to go to China to learn these arts, and even there style number one is almost extinct (unfortunately).

:)

[Guo_Xing_Yi]

you can find people for qi shi through lee family arts (in the UK at least)..


As for all the rest, I agree..

[Adc]

Here's some more Chinese MA styles that you can all get excited about.
Tongbiquan,Mulanquan Meihuaquan, Wushizhuang,Xinyibar Pigua, Baji,Sanhuangpao, Dagongli, Niantui, Lianquan,Mianzhang,Hongquan,Liuhebafa,
And they are just some northern styles.都是内家
Styles are very very common and very numerous in China,there are many more varients then will ever reach OS.Popularity of styles is more due to published writings and individuals promotion.

[Adc]

Not exactly XYQ but considered a derivative Wang Xiang Zhai who is considered the modern founder of Yiquan 意拳
wrote many papers on topics such as the future of Boxing (MA) influence of western boxing (MA)the student master methods,form work with conclusions that may surprise most here.
Yiquan generally(although it is already seeing splits in its unity) has no forms and concentrates on qigong /jinggong and fajin pijin through solo,partner and full contact work.

[xingyiboxer]

Hmmm. It seems that the Xingyi taught in the U.S. is a bit limited then, to say the least.

Where can we find out more about your style, since from the descriptions it's not as limited as that taught in the U.S.?

[Ular Sawa]

As stated in the first post, it is difficult to find a good teacher. I'm not sure
if that has anything to do with US or UK. I was quite pleased with what I was learning here in the States from a teacher who learned from Sifu James McNeil.

[gerard]

Here's some more Chinese MA styles that you can all get excited about.
Tongbiquan,Mulanquan Meihuaquan, Wushizhuang,Xinyibar Pigua, Baji,Sanhuangpao, Dagongli, Niantui, Lianquan,Mianzhang,Hongquan,Liuhebafa,
And they are just some northern styles.都是内家
Styles are very very common and very numerous in China,there are many more varients then will ever reach OS.Popularity of styles is more due to published writings and individuals promotion.


Come on bud, we all know there are hundred of styles and variations. And I bet you that Daoist hermits know some stuff no one knows and no one will ever know.

Anyway, the one Ric and I are referring to belong to the Neijia family.

:)

[wuwei]

I think the beauty of Xingyi is in its simplicity. It still retains much of the martial favour of TMA. The essence of Chinese martial arts and especially internal arts (hence its name) is in the "gong fa", ie, principals and excerises that strengthen your body, cultivate your qi, prepare you for "fajing", coordinate and unify your movements, etc. And in this respect, Xingyi is surviving relatively well. It's simplicity is also a little deceiving, as most of the technique and requirement is not obvious to see and understand. How many hand technique do you really need in a fight? What you need is power and speed, which is all in the "gong", not in the form. So instead of confusing you with hundreds of preset moves in many forms, Xingyi has only a few movements but concentrate more on the "gong".

[nzric]

I actually thought of it because of the story of Tung Hai Chuan (bagua) vs Kuo Yun Shen (Hsing-i). The principle behind the story is that the arts should be taught together, and since I've done some taiji and some bagua, it's natural to try the third of the "Big 3".

I've seen a few regional styles (living in Chatswood in Sydney was a great place to see unusual forms in the park) but I'm sure it's not even scraping the surface unless you travel to the source.

[Adc]

Come on bud, we all know there are hundred of styles and variations.
Yep,that was my point,so why repeat it.
Anyway, the one Ric and I are referring to belong to the Neijia family.
都是内家的武功
Yep so am I.

[moondog]

"You know, honestly, having this kind of a forum about these martial arts is kindof a joke.

Taiji, bagua, xingyi ... Taiji is a watered down joke these days. It has what ... one empty handed form, one sword form (jian), and sometimes one staff form or something? Most of the people who do taiji don't even spar or fight.

Xingyi has like 5 very simple basic forms (1 move repeated), 12 slightly more complicated forms, a few combination forms, a few short weapons sets.

Baguazhang as it is taught in the U.S. at least has a few empty handed forms, along with one linear form. Most people know just a few of the weapons sets.

You'd probably be better off taking karate, or something like chow lay fut, Shaolin (from a reputable source ... not wushu), etc.

Xingyi as a starting martial art something like karate isn't bad, but you might as well just take karate. I had no idea it was so basic when I started."

while it's true that the internal martial arts suffer a lot from malpractice and commercialization i'd like to say that there are still a few people who are proficient in these types of martial arts.

about xingyi being too simple: even the most basic training drill, zhang zhuang (standing meditation), takes years to master. each movement of the solo form becomes different if your intention is different. i've been doing the 30-step ch'en style tao lu for 2 years now and still find that everytime i practice the form changes meaning for me, since my intention with the each posture changes. and we're only talking about the modified form here. you can see why it took lifetimes to acquire martial skill doing the traditional taiji forms. and then there's push hands, issuing of force, etc. all these drills require years and years of hard work to be able to do. xingyi might have less drills and forms than taiji, but that may work out in its advantage because it forces the practicioner to do the forms and drills over and over again. like i said, the same drill can be used in a variety of ways, it is the intention that you must train.

[jorvik]

Well I think that it's good news if Hsing-I is simple to learn, it means that i should be able to learn some from Dr.Yang's book and video.enough to get me by anyway. I once did a course in the UK with Richard Mooney and he showed one Hsing-i punch were the fingers were held against the palm and not clenched.the power was very impressive................if anyone can recommend other books or even give advice I'd be grateful ..but that to me sounds really positive :D

[moondog]

jorvik,

in my opinion it's almost impossible to learn the martial arts through books and/or videos... there's too much that has to be shown and felt personally... dr.yang's books are very well written though so you might be able to get something out of it but i doubt that you'll gain any self-defense capabilities just from studying a book or video... is there anyone in your area that teaches xingyiquan?

[jorvik]

Moondog
No I'm afraid there is no xingyi by me at all. I'd just noticed Dr.Yangs book at the bookstore and it seemed very clear. I'm doing Yang style TC now at one of master Yangs school's and I've been very impressed with the instruction, at least compared to when I did Hao style.on Dr.Yang's website there is a clip of xingyi and I know how to apply the technique used coz it's basically Shomenate from Aiki...I've done loads of different styles over the years and there is always some crossover between styles. The Hao style that I did was originally taught to my teachers by a Taiwanese who had the best teachers available.....and still they knew very little application of the form, so in effect they were doing Tai chi dance. Have you ever heard the story about the guy who was a chen family servant and watched them doing TC in secret...and eventually became better than them?.that to me is a bit like watching videos.........the basics are in Dr.Yang's books and I suppose that they are better than nothing.

[moondog]

that wouldn't be the story of Yang Lu Chan would it? :) anywayz i wish you good luck. i've always found that Dr.Yang's books are very well written and don't contradict how real live fights go (in my experience of course :) ). i have heard some people though say he isn't very good, he's only good at translating the classics. have you found this to be true? like i said his books are good, and i saw a clip of him performing the yang long form and it looks like the genuine thing, but i've never actually seen him in person or felt his combat ability. what's your opinion, since you study under his organization?

[jorvik]

Moondog.
Guess you've heard that story too :)
From what I know Dr.Yang is very good, the real deal..I have never trained with him although my teacher has learned from him for the past 10 years or so, and he's done this by travelling to seminars in Boston U.S.A., South Africa, Ireland etc and he now runs seminars for Dr.Yang in the UK....so he has spent a lot of money just to follow him.
I can only say what I know of my own teacher, and I'm very impressed, the Tai-Chi is taught as a martial art..and only by doing it that way do you learn the health benefits, and I do feel healthy when I practice. He will tell us about opening our qwa and that sort of thing, so that the TC positively "ripples" when you do it.......as I say I've done Hao before and was pretty good at pushing hands.and I've pushed hands with my teacher..and it feels like I'm wrestling a bodybuilder.somebody far stronger than I am.although I know that he is not using strength ( I'm am pretty strong myself I can bench 200lb+).
My teacher says that he is not a patch on Dr.Yang........I couldn't make this years seminar :( .but I'll hopefully get there next year

[keith1892]

i have been learning from sifu james mcneil for the last year a and a half. his hsing i is absolutely amazing. each form has a certain and distinct power and one of the first posts said it correctly when " you have to find a good teacher" in order to see it's devastating effects. the moves are fairly simple but take a long time to master and besides, it's what is simple that works the best.

[Guo_Xing_Yi]

Yea I like James. I just wish he didnt do the 'xing yi push hands'. Its just so not needed! Get in there fight I say! :-)

[Darab]

As stated in the first post, it is difficult to find a good teacher. I'm not sure
if that has anything to do with US or UK. I was quite pleased with what I was learning here in the States from a teacher who learned from Sifu James McNeil.
:) my seifu was taught by McNeill too.

[keith1892]

On the contrary, I believe push hands is essential for hsing i because if you can fight off of touch, then it would be extremely hard to beat you. you'll always be ahead of the fight and can dominate much easier than just charging in. well that's my opinion anyways......

[BillyJohnston]

[QUOTE=xingyiboxer]Honestly, xingyi is kindof boring. It has very few empty handed forms, and very few weapons sets.

According to one legend, it was originally taught to soldiers. According to another legend, it is a very secret style passed down through the Dai family from another style, xinyi.

Whatever you believe, the soldier story seems more correct judging by the contents of the forms and the techniques.
[QUOTE]

"It's boring." That is kinda funny. Isn't all practice boring by nature? Practice is doing the exact same thing over and over and over.

I heard Xingyi was short and to the point also. I had a high impression of it because of a guy I talked to.

This guy was telling me he planned to become a tournament fighter. He trained all kinds of stuff but he wanted to be the best so he wanted to learn internal arts. He learned Tai Chi, Xing Yi and Ba Gua. After training a long time he was ready to go to the tournament.

I think it is human nature to try the low weapon first. If you can knock someone out with a punch, why go to the trouble of kicking them? He said he planned to go out and do the Xing Yi first as it was the "lowest" of the Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Xing Yi triumvirate of internal arts.

He cleaned up. He said he went out and just mowed people down with the Xing yi. There was no reason to use the Tai Chi or Ba Gua. I was impressed. He was obviously a tough guy.

He demonstrated a Xing Yi form which is why I can relate to the boring comment up above. There were a group of us standing there. He began to do his form which consisted of moving back and forth in a straight line while doing various hand moves. After a few minutes, it got boring. A bunch of people drifted away. I even stopped paying close attention after awhile. The form was like 5 or 10 minutes it felt like of him going back and forth in a straight line. Really boring. No jumping or excitement like Wu Shu or Drunken Boxing or anything like that.

I had the feeling that Xing Yi was a no nonsense kind of fighting art. I would probably agree that it was designed for the military. You can make recruits go back and forth in a line all day. Who cares if they get bored?

The guy was kind of spooky too. He had that kind of presence that you know he could kill someone if he wanted to. It was spooky because he was kind of fat and if you did not know what was going on, he even looked sort of jolly and friendly. He was a chi gong guy so maybe that is why he spooked me. I can never tell exactly what those guys are doing so they make me nervous.

[soggycat]

http://www.angelfire.com/id/sundafa/martial.html

This is Sun Da Fa, an IMA Master from Shanghai.
His specialty is Honan style 10 -Animal/5 element Hsing Yi, although he does teach Yang Tai Chi and Chin Na ( Qinna) amongst others. ( Read, 10-animal, not 12-animal, which is a different style)

Be warned that he is "old school" which means he will teach you one technique which you will repeat until you get it "perfect" before he teaches you anything else. This could be 8months to 1 year depending on your progress.

Also some people have commented that his style of Hsing Yi appears "External" , well that's because he was originally a Shaolin master , but switched to IMA in later life. So he's still got residual "external " mentality about things, which unfortunately detracts from pure IMA thought IMHO.

His tel number is provided in the webpage, best to call him at night....classes held the outside foyer/lobby area of an office complex ( Centennial Plaza/ RTA ) in Surry Hills , near Central Station

[gerard]

Thanks mate,

The problem is that I live in Brisvegas, the city of lost souls.

I'll be moving soon though, got sick of this absurd city.

:)

[soggycat]

Thanks mate,

The problem is that I live in Brisvegas, the city of lost souls.


:)

Gerard,
Perhaps you know of this school in Brissy?
http://www.brisbanekungfu.com/about-us/#ian-lee

I personally don't know much about it, mebbe you like to check it out.
THey teach Bagua and HsingYi as well.....what makes me highly suspicious is that Shaolin stuff is also taught there. The main instructor has a Shaolin past before switching to Internal Arts.....but that always makes me wonder about the purity of their skill.

My experience with instructors who moved from Shaolin to Wudang and do not renounce their Hard / External /Inefficient /Impractical Shaolin ways, is that they tend to teach IMA incorrectly and actually emphasise EFFORT during training, thereby defeating the original premise of pure Taoist IMA.

[serious harm]

xinyiluihequan video I found on another site.

http://www.ligaxin.ru/avi/maxinyi.wmv

[Infrazael]

Man, all this talk about Xing-Yi's power and devastation makes me think of Hung Gar. . . . .