discussion for those who believe chi is mystical.

[drunken master]

I'd like a place to chat with those who believe chi is more then some self-hypnosis techique. Post your ideas and beliefs on chi, along with experiences you like to share with others.

[YODA]

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18391

Enjoy :rolleyes:

[Kwajman]

*giggle*

[Tika]

*giggle*

*tackle*

[Saz]

Wow, this is the most serene Chi thread we've ever had! 5 posts and no flames or appearences by LilBunnyRabbit yet :D

[serious harm]

Here is post quoted from Emptyflower by my friend who I know.-

" Qi has been subjected to this kind of cross cultural parsing error to the point of obscurity. No-one who understood what is implied by Qi would say they don't beleive in it. Saying you don't beleive in Qi is like saying you don't beleive in 'relationship' or "influence".

Qi is an old idea. The model I will try to explain is at least 2300 years old as it is clearly laid out in the Huangdi Neijing, the seminal work of chinese medicine. While essentially a medical text it also lays out a metaphysical model that is basic to chinese philosophy. The oldest character for Qi represented vapours rising. In time the radical for grain was placed below to show the steam that rises from cooking millet. What happens when you smell food cooking? Your body responds; stomach gurgles, mouth waters, etc. So something about cooking food exerted influence on you. Qi.

What is the nature of this influence? It requires that we introduce two other philosophical concepts that have been subject to ideational mutilation, Yin and Yang. We often see the simplistic folk models of Yin and Yang that are lists of things associated with the two concepts. ( Yin is feminine, cool, dark, receptive/ Yang is masculine, warm, light, creative). These lists are not strictly wrong, yet they obscure the reason the lists were made in the first place.

' Between heaven and earth are qi and it's laws' ; between Yin and Yang are Qi and it's laws'. This classic statement points to the most important aspect of Qi, it's context. So qi is the interplay of Yin and Yang. This brings us back to the nature of Yin and Yang.

Yin is the tendency of things in the universe to coalesce and slow down. Yin is the tendency to crystalization and struction. Yin is the tendacy of matter to fall down and shadows to form in opposition to light.

Yang is the tendency for things to change and become other things. The tendency to dissolve and tendency to grow. The tendency for clouds to boil and skin to tan.

All objects of sense experience are an interplay of Yin and Yang. This includes individual things as well as systems. This is why the concept of Taiji is the great terminus or the grand ultimate, because it includes all things in the universe. Yin and Yang are linked and one cannot be discussed without invoking the other. Structure cannot be divorced from function.

They stand in mutual opposition.
They are rooted in each other.
They difine each others limit.
They transform into one another.

When we discuss the balance of Yin and Yang at any given moment or in any given state we are talking about Qi. It is important to understand that Yin and Yang are not absolute states of being, rather they are part of a moving frame that can applied in a variety of ways to any situation. There are many situations where the place of Yin and Yang is considered to be understood and relatively predictable so they are left out of the discussion. One of these places is in the context of the relationship between body and mind.

When we look at the basic idea of body and mind in Chinese philosophy we are talking about Jing(essense), and Shen( spirit, or summation of mental-emotional aspects of the individual). The relative interaction of Jing and Shen is the normal context for the discussion of Qi in martial arts. When someone says 'lead qi to your fingertips" the implication is to focus the mind on the fingertips to perceive the interaction between Jing and Shen at that point, hence qi. However, you could also say, ' absorb the opponents force to use their strength against them.' In this case Yin is found in the reception and relaxed connection of the defender ( song) , and the Yang is found in the aggresor's force( Li). The resulting Qi is how the interaction plays out. If the defender is subtle and skilled the qi will be the qi of a throw perhaps. If the aggressor is more subtle or skilled the result may be the qi of a successful hit.. If the aggressor is very subtle they may be able to become more Yin that the defender and so invert the frame of Yin and Yang.

So to come back to the idea 'Do you beleive in qi?' may be more usefully phrased, ' Do you beleive in the interplay of structure and fuction? Do you beleive in the interaction of order and chaos?"

[serious harm]

quotes from chapters 1 and 2 of "Science of Being" by Eugene ferson

" Etenal energy, primal energy- pevading the universe, filling infinite space. If primal energy fills infinite space for one moment, it must be one with eternal space for eternity, because there is no place where it can lose itself. Therefore the basic energy of the universe is found to be infinite, and at the same time eternal. Through further investigation, it was discovered that infinite energy expesses itself in most admirable laws, sublime laws: that it shows the profoundest intelligence and logic, a self conciossness expressed in the divinest terms, laws invariable, true to themselves, mathematically correct, and above all, harmonious and beutiful.

As a result of all this reasoning, was discovered, through its first universal manifestation as primal energy, that which has always exsisted, the eternal unmanifest called god, conciouss of it's own power, law emitting, law abiding. In other words there is a Unit, a One, existing eternally, expressing itself through its creation, the universe, conciously governing it, sustaining it in a condition of eternal harmony, and loving it, for love and harmony are one. Love Is attraction.Thus science has found divinity under another name. Therefore the word "god" which would have been used in "religion", will be substituted a word having deeper meaning, covering broader ground, the word principle."

" That is the great principle is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, The great principle has from eternity, out of itself created everything there is. It is it's own center and own circumference. The absolute is present everywhere, whether we are conciouss of it or not. That means that whenever we wish to come in contact with the great principle, we do not need to think of something far distant, unattainable. All we need to do is know the immutable fact that its first manifistation, universal energy, is always about us in full power. Therefore when anyone realises this presence conciously, there it is in its full power. We can agian make the comparisin to the ocean. We cannot say that in any one place in the ocean there is more power than in another. There is power everywhere. Whenever one wishes to contact the ocean, one has simply to dip the hand into the water and one will feel all that the ocean is, and if one puts tha hand in another part of the ocea, one will have the same results. Millions of people can do the same thing, at the same time, and they all will contact the same fullness of the ocean. So it is with the great principle. Whenever we conciously contact the absolute in its manifistation as Universal energy, there it is in all it's omnipotence, because it is all embracing. Therefore it is not correct, as we find in literature, to imagine that there is somewhere in the universe a center of powers and forces from which all forces radiate, acting most strongly on those things which are nearest and more feebly on those farthest away"

"" Primal energy, as was explained in the first lesson, is the fundamental force of the universe. It underlies, pervades, and sustains everything, fills all space, endures throughout eternity, and is the source of all power. It is indeed the very life of the universe. As such, it is in perpetual motion, expressing itself through what are called vibrations

In the absolute there is only one kind of vibration, the spiritual. In The present state of human concioussness those spiritual vibrations appear as a three fold ray

1. Life or magnetic vibrations
2.mind vibrations
3.soul vibrations"


" And each kind of vibration is expessing itsef in a different way, which conforms to it's own particular laws"

" Life vibrations are also called magnetic vibrations, because they possess two primary qualites, motion and attraction. In the practical application, those qualities are continually used in oreder to obtain the desired results. Magnetic vibrations are essentailly importan because they not only permeate the whole universe and underlie everything, but because they constitute the very element out of which our bodies and the whole visible universe is made. The great practical value of those Life Vibrations is that we do not need concentration or strong mental effort to contact them. All we need to do is to become concious of their continual flow into us, and thus establish the so called contact. No matter what we do, be it physical, mental, or emotional activity, we should never use our own very limited supply of life enrgy. THis must be the cardinal point to be remebered."

" The question may arise, why is it necessary to make contactwith the universal life energy? Are we not in direct and constant communication with it at all times? Yes, but we are not concious of it. On the contrary, we conciously beleive we are independant of it, that we have a life force of our own. We think we are seperate from all power. Therefore we need to reestblish on the mental plane that which was lost there, though we never lost that contact on the spiritual plane."

" There are different methods of contacting Primal energy. The easiest and the simplest way is through mental contact. In order to do it, we must relax completely as we can, physically, mentally, emotionally. And when we feel harmony within us then we must say to ourslves " I am one with the universal life energy it is flowing through me now, I feel it"


"In order to overcome that difficulty and enable everybody, even the most skeptical and timid, to make successful that conciouss contact with the universal life energy, there is another method of pure physical contact, based on pure physical laws. That second method has this advantage over the mental one, that it does not require any faith in it. It works for the reason that the physical laws are put into operation, and the physical contact with the universal energy is made, not because we think it or want it, but because we cannot help it."

" Yet if we do not think about it, it still will work, because of the aforesaid reasons. The second, the physical method, is based on a certain exercise called the star exercise"

" The heart situated on the left side of the body, is not only the central pumping station which takes in and sends out blood, but also is the apparatus which sucks in and pours out universal life energy"

That is from the book " Science of being" written by Eugene ferson in 1920s.

So a diamond would have more qi in it's space that a peice of coal. And qi is vibratory, so it's nature is to raise higher in vibration.

http://www.atlantis.to/books/Peniel's-books.htm

[wayofthedragon]

chi, it's real alright. However I believe that many have exadurated it thus bring about many myths about it.

[serious harm]

The great principle, is that which creates, constitutes, governs, sustains, and contains all within all.

Absolute laws. The same law governs everything from biggest to smallest, beginning and end. Life, mind, truth, love, is all, four points of the base of a pyrymid in a specific order with spirit at the tip as one. All is vibration.

The laws of the relative are law of polarity, law of rythm, law of cause and effect, law of gender.

There is also the law of evolution, like 10 steps forwrd 9.9 steps back, SORT OF, and law of love.

There is a so called principle of inter- generation, inter-inhibition. And creation, stasis, degeneration, destruction.

Ultimately it is the priciple of the oldest name of God. Yod He Vau He. It is know in many cultures, Yawheh, jehova, and Ya Ho Wa Ho are afew. The father, mother, son, and universal holy spirit. All is vibration, and octaves of it.

http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/trigrams/archetypes.htm

http://www.lunarlogic.de/Connie/The_metapattern_of_8.htm

[drunken master]

thank you for such detail 'serious harm' and i've always been somwhere along the lines of how you feel about qi. if any thread i post seems vauge its because i tend to get more answers to a subject then i expected. I can feel qi in the qigong pose but i'd like to learn how to feel jing, any suggestions?

[serious harm]

Well, I think jing is the more physical. So hmm, perhaps the more physical styles like martial arts or even Taiji, to develop the lower chakras and Dan, or refined energy.

Here is the Star exercise to develop qi flowing inwards as well as outwards together. And to store/charge/refine as well as refine the energy vibration of the energy body.

http://www.meditation-techniques.net/meditations/starexercise.htm

[drunken master]

i appreciate your help.

[serious harm]

IMO qigong is ancient culture. The perfect condition is inflowing and outflowing cultivation at the same time. Some qigong is very concerned with inward cultivation and sealing the senses, cultivating lotus position and pointing fingers inwards towards the wrists like a hollow fist or hands at dantien. But I think perhaps cultivating lotus position, with energy flowing out the hands is a more advanced posture.

Qi practices also circulate energy and connect flows and acupoints, this is why if you bend forward you will next bend back, if you open you will next close.

So atlantis and ancient civilisations were destroyed, but some remnants of the culture remained. The knowledge had to be kept hidden to kings and emperors while the people with the knowledge could still work in society, either teaching about spirituality, or working to improve the world in other ways. "Gypsies" had the tarot card, which start and end with the fool card, a fool for the universal will. The Kaballah is also related as well as the I ching.

http://www.prs.org/gallery-kabblh.htm
http://chikungintl.com/+-trigramcl.jpg
http://kabooom.com/laterheaven2.gif
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec16.html
http://faculty.clintoncc.suny.edu/faculty/Michael.Gregory/files/Bio%20101/Bio%20101%20Lectures/Chemistry/chemistr.htm

There were many prophecies in the past about the current age. Many qigong methods were to be kept absolutely secret until this millenium.

http://www.keysofenoch.org/html/giza_update.html

http://www.lyghtforce.com/Giza/

http://www.think-aboutit.com/Spiritual/edgar_cayce.htm

The Egyptian math of Thoth is very similar to chinese philosophy! The spiral is 100 and the 5 pointed human star is 5. Similar to Taiji, wuxing, and I ching. 5 is also a multiple of 100, and on a smaller scale, or decimal scale, than 100.

http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/eghier.html

[serious harm]

Ancient spiritual groups in the past

http://essenes.net/lifein.html
http://www.crystalinks.com/dss.html
http://www.edgarcayce.org/ancient_mysteries/ancient_index.html

Some cool clips here from 1700 year old qigong from China and Tibet
http://www.threegeese.com/qipage3.html
http://www.possiblesociety.org/dayanqigong.htm

Interesting finds by proffessional scietist Falundafa practitioners

http://www.pureinsight.org/pi/articles/2002/5/20/195.html
http://www.falundafa.org/eng/media.htm
http://www.wellnessgoods.com/messages.asp
http://www.pureinsight.org/pi/articles/2004/5/10/2240.html

Hopi prophecy
http://www.crystalinks.com/hopi2.html
http://www.clearwisdom.net/eng/2000/nov/20/scf112000_1.html
http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/11/21/6096.html


http://www.railriders.com/store/article/18?&archive_link=yes
http://www.atlantis.to/spirituality-articles.htm

History to repeat itself?
http://www.climatehotmap.org/photos/index.html[/QUOTE]

[serious harm]

Preliminary scientific finds-
http://www.clubs.psu.edu/up/psufalundafa/homepage/meditation%20&%20medical%20research.htm
http://www.clearharmony.net/articles/200305/12738.html

IMO the neuro scenar is definitely related to qi, it feels very similar. But it is not like an average tens machine. It can make any part of the body it's applied to, say for instance the shoulder, flap up and down, almost like wings
http://www.scenar.info/products/scenar.php

[drunken master]

tis gonna take me some time to even read all this, thanks once again.

[serious harm]

Interesting ancient finds from around the world

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/992589/posts
http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html
http://www.grahamhancock.com/gallery/underwater/yonaguni.htm
http://eaglesdisobey.org/UnderwaterRuins.htm
http://www.crystalinks.com/pyramidchina.html
http://www.tmeg.com/artifacts/elect/a_elect.htm
http://www.geocities.com/jilaens/ancient.html

What is not shown in public sound even more incredible
http://www.nii.net/~obie/historygold.htm

Strange as it seems, it's possible technology was high in the past
http://www.pureinsight.org/pi/articles/2003/4/28/1582.html
http://www.s8int.com/atomic1.html
http://www.s8int.com/atomic2.html
http://www.s8int.com/water1.html
http://ufoevidence.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=MYTH&action=display&num=1057134096

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/galleries/belize/photo2.html
http://www.ambergriscaye.com/pages/town/greatbluehole.html
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=96&e=3&u=/space/20040923/sc_space/lifeisagasmethanemightsupportundergroundet
http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue18/18bermuda.html

The past goes back along ways, Columbus was not the first here
http://www.grahamhancock.com/gallery/mexico/2.htm
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scienceNews&storyID=6159251
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0923/p13s01-stgn.html

Underground tunnels are mentioned in many supposed unrelated teachings. Such as the DSS and Hopi prophecy
http://www.marsearthconnection.com/etot3.html

More "modern" history
http://www.fsmitha.com/timeline2.html

[serious harm]

As for the mind, and subconcious mind's role in qi. I think it's important. There are different states of brain wave apparently. Theta is the best-

http://www.atlantis.to/music2/sound-therapy-music-therapy.htm

In meditation there might be different visualisation, focuses, or awarenesses-

-specific external, focusing on a specific area outside the body

- general external, or peripheral awareness

- specific internal, such as awareness focused on a specific body part, or chakra

-general internal, the rest of the body as a whole

- "Ding", emptiness or nothingness, but also a very aware state
http://media1.minghui.org/media/dafa/en_mpg/Instruction.ram
http://www.falundafa.org/eng/media.htm

[serious harm]

Interesting article, if totally true-
http://www.think-aboutit.com/Misc/Grandcanyon.html

History to repeat itself?
http://www.climatehotmap.org/photos/index.html

Painting qigong?
http://www.buddhanet.net/budart.htm
http://www.artunframed.com/images/artmis69/vincie.jpg
http://www.twingroves.district96.k12.il.us/Renaissance/University/LeonardodaVinci/StudyMan.html

[serious harm]

Ultimate meditation

http://www.meditation-techniques.net/

http://www.hiddenfalls.org/photo/index.html

http://www.atlantis.to/spirituality-articles.htm

http://www.atlantis.to/

[gerard]

Ultimately it is the priciple of the oldest name of God[/URL]

Hello, I think you went a bit too far here. God is a metaphysical concept that can't be just encased within qi. Qi is just part of this physical reality. Beyond beyond the rules of Yin & Yang there is nothingness from a mental perspective, thus qi is another illusion.

:)

[serious harm]

Infinity is hard to grasp. All is an octave of vibration which qi is but a part.

[serious harm]

Check out how similar the Dayan qigong posture at the very bottom of this page, is to Yoga
http://dayan.oompa.net/qigong-syllabus.html

And WKK's 18 Lohan hands are very similar to Yoga
http://wongkk.com/chikung/lohan.html

Yoga
http://www.yoga-videos.net/
http://www.atlantis.to/Products/about-tibetan-yoga.htm
http://www.yoga-tibet.com/index.html

Qigong
http://www.threegeese.com/qipage3.html
http://dayan.oompa.net/qigong-syllabus.html
http://dayan.oompa.net/qigong.html

http://www.qinway.org/founder.htm

http://www.falundafa.org/eng/media.htm

[serious harm]

:eek: Qi theory related to mathematics and stuff??? I don't understand quite everything on these pages lol, but it looks cool.
http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/ichgene6.html
http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/allspaces.html#fluteRyu
http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/cosm.html
http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/Bardo.html#Iching

http://www.prs.org/gallery-kabblh.htm
http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/LoPan.html

[ZillaBilla]

Have we not already had too many threads with more or less the same topic..

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18391

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18681

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18617

I'm preatty sure there is more, I just cant be bothered looking..

[serious harm]

I agree with you ZillaBilla. People saying qi sensation and vitality is hypnotism, suggestiveness, or in the practitioners head are the ones being illogical. Of course it's real, and can be felt, saying it is in the mind is against common sense. Hypnotism is just people on stage acting you know. Anyone can say, I do that internal stuff too, but obviously some people haven't trained that far in IMA cause they aren't getting the tremendous vitalisation and qi sensations. Qi can be generated and led by the mind, which improves vitality far beyond any other method of exercise. Way beyond. It is the interaction of spirit and essense, and flows from the universal spirit, of which everything is a part.

[xingyiboxer]

Why do you guys post all this weird alien stuff? What does that have to do with martial arts?

I swear, I don't know what Serious Harm is on about. He did the same thing on Bullshido.

Why don't you find the UFO trolling boards and post on there? Otherwise should we start posting links to the best recipes for cookies, or links to sewing lessons? How off topic can you get?

[Vastian]

Why do you guys post all this weird alien stuff? What does that have to do with martial arts?

I swear, I don't know what Serious Harm is on about. He did the same thing on Bullshido.

Why don't you find the UFO trolling boards and post on there? Otherwise should we start posting links to the best recipes for cookies, or links to sewing lessons? How off topic can you get?

ALIEN SITES i didn't even bother to look at them, glad i didn't.
So he's just posting spam then ?

I believe in qi i just don't think it something that is all that serious and i don't like to talk about because i see not point in it with it being all around constantly.

[serious harm]

ALIEN SITES i didn't even bother to look at them, glad i didn't.
So he's just posting spam then ?

I believe in qi i just don't think it something that is all that serious and i don't like to talk about because i see not point in it with it being all around constantly.

Then why would you "believe in" in something you don't perceive. The sites I posted are all related if read in order or if you can comprehend them.

[Vastian]

Then why would you "believe in" in something you don't perceive.
i never said i couldn't feel it, can you see air? do you believe its there.
Why don't you try not breathing for a while and tell me if you believe in air and that you need it to breath.

[nzric]

I just want to wade in for a moment....

A lot of these "chi" threads have been getting off topic lately. It's great to learn new things about chi and mysticism, but I just want to remind you that this forum is about Internal Martial Arts.

If you want to talk about chi as a concept, taoism, mysticism, etc., it's probably better to post in the philosophy, off topic or traditional healing forums. The aim in here is to talk about IMA principles that relate to martial arts practice.

Thanks, if you're not sure about a post/thread topic, it's probably best to put it in the Off Topic area, otherwise you can pm me.

[serious harm]

Oh yeah, it shows air is related to the qi principle and follows it in the human way of in and out, polarized naturally in the envirinment in a way. You can see air anytime it's cold out. Without food you can go a while, without water less, without air hardly at all, without qi you are dead.

[gerard]

i never said i couldn't feel it, can you see air? do you believe its there.
Why don't you try not breathing for a while and tell me if you believe in air and that you need it to breath.

Hello, come on young boy don't get stirred up. Settle down and try not to think too much in something that we all know is present. I think a Zen approach to life will help you to cool your fire Leo.

Kind regards :)

[serious harm]

These clips show that Taiji is related to opening and closing the chest and internal body. Creating Yin and Yang( up and down) from Taiji. And also related to breathing, as well as opening and closing, microcosmic circular energy flow.

http://vc4.hit.bg/taiji_cinna_1.avi
http://vc4.hit.bg/taiji_cinna_2.avi

[serious harm]

Different cultural practices more related than thought?

http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/illnesswellness/a/YogaPrayer.htm

[serious harm]

This sites shows that some research on qigong shows it is probably real. I doubt there's enough money in external qigong for a company to control external qi though.
http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers/qigonglyphoma.pdf

http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers.php

[Thirteen Monks]

thank you for such detail 'serious harm' and i've always been somwhere along the lines of how you feel about qi. if any thread i post seems vauge its because i tend to get more answers to a subject then i expected. I can feel qi in the qigong pose but i'd like to learn how to feel jing, any suggestions?

Jing (as in Fa Jing I'm assuming) is easy to feel. Just walk up to a Hsing I master and smack him/her. Then you will feel much Fa Jing.

[drunken master]

at the moment, the number of veiws on this like that i started is 666. neat.

[alienlovechild]

How I understand Qi: Qi is life [life-force]. What is life? What can we say of life? Well for one, life is something that happens of itself. I did not choose to be alive, I just am, just as I did not choose to have this body, nor am I choosing to age. Western thought however, by and large, has attempted to reduce life to consciousness - ergo cogito sum or 'I think therefore I am' [Descartes]. This is clearly counter-intuituve. Life, by its very definition, precedes consciousness. This is why Qi is an important concept.

In relation to internal martial arts, the idea is not to merely consciously impose patterns of movement onto the body, a la external martial arts, but to use movement, which begins in consciousness, to gain an intuitive understanding of the body's 'internal' or preconscious movement. When all the body is connected, which is the most basic principle of internal arts - that no part of the body moves without the whole body moving - any conscious movement, say lifting the hand, will cause unconscious movement, i.e. the whole body following. Eventually the conscious and unconscious movements merge so that you feel like you are both moving and not moving your body - you move, but the body also moves itself. This is why in the Tai-chi classics there are sayings like: find stillness in motion, and Yang Lu Chan says: we must cause this circulating substance [Qi] to full the entire body, so that if we want to go left it goes left, and if we want to go right it goes right. And this is precisely what Qi for me feels like, the body moving itself at a subtler level than the purely physical [i.e. using the muscules].

There are so many people out there who say they "don't believe" in Qi, when in fact what they don't believe in is a shadow of the concept of Qi, a mystical, faciful, enchanted idea of Qi probably mostly constructed by Westerners anyway. For me Qi is an incredibly liberating concept in that it goes it against the clearly stupid idea, that somehow took hold in the West, that life begins in consciousness.