Hit 23 times in under 3 seconds

[Thomas Vince]

One of my old instructors once hit someone on film and although controlled he hit 23 times in under 3 seconds using hands and feet and elbows. It was amazing.
What are some of your thoughts and feelings about speed and how it can be generated. What are somw of the things that you do to build up your speed?

[Pablo]

It sounds like pretty standard stuff - skillful for sure, but not all that amazing. Now Lin Kong Jin, thats amazing :)

Have you checked out the 'Speed Hitting' guy? He gives a pretty straight forward explanation of this sort of thing (multiple strikes with various body parts, flowing and bouncing into the next strike, etc.) Also an outfit called Health for Life (if I remember correctly) put out a nice paper on the physical and mental components of MA speed a couple of decades ago.

just my .02

paul

[Chazz]

I always love to see things like that because it requires skill. But with work and guidance any of us can do that. I wish i could now. *LOL*

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
One of my old instructors once hit someone on film and although controlled he hit 23 times in under 3 seconds using hands and feet and elbows. It was amazing.
What are some of your thoughts and feelings about speed and how it can be generated. What are somw of the things that you do to build up your speed?

Basically echoing what the others have said ... with a little more detail.

The key to generating speed in general is proper relaxation. By this, I don't mean going limp (though that can be useful for some things). What I mean is relaxing those muscles which aren't necessary. A simple example is a jab. When your arm goes out, your tricep tenses to pull it out. If your bicep is tensed then it will be fighting your tricep. So, on the way out, you want your bicep as relaxed as possible and then, as soon as you've hit the apex of your strike, you relax your tricep as much as possible so it doesn't hinder the retraction of the strike (which relies on your bicep tensing). This principle can be applied to virtually any strike and, through development, will increase your basic striking speed.

To increase your overall speed, you have to (as others mentioned) develop your "flow" from strike to strike. This also relies on relaxation because relaxation increases tactile sensitivity and general mobility. So, going back to the jab example, relax your bicep as you fire out, then at the apex of your strike, relax your tricep and let your arm fold back ... but also move your body in so that you "roll" from the jab into an elbow. When the elbow lands, you can then flow to a backfist, which then sets up your other hook.

Terms that I've heard related to this topic:

"Body Contouring": which means using the contour of your opponent's body to guide your strikes ... you have to remain sensitive because his body position will change dynamically in general during a fight and specifically in response to being hit

"Economy of Motion": which means only moving as much as necessary to accomplish your strike and don't overcommit yourself

"Efficiency of Motion": similar to and related to "Economy of Motion" but has more to do with accomplishing multiple tasks with a minimal amount of motion (i.e.: the "interception" in my "Applied Trap Hands" article which both deflects the incoming strike and strikes the opponent all in one motion). It's kind of the flip side of "Economy of Motion" ... "Economy" deals is isolated within how you move your body. "Efficiency" deals with how you relate to your opponent. They overlap in a lot of ways but I prefer to view them as separate principles because the differences, while subtle, are important.

"Relaxation": detailed above ... but should also include mental attitude ... the ability to mentally flow as well as physically flow

"First come, first served" or "Defanging the Snake": whatever is in my range (his hand, foot, head, whatever) is what I attack to help prevent me from overextending

"Trampoline or Pool Ball effect": striking with a ricochet motion that allows quicker more penetrating strikes (also mentioned previously in this thread)

"Follow the energy of the opportunity / flow": discussed previously

"Work high and low": basically, as you're flowing, don't get hung up on only working one area ... feel the openings and take them wherever they are

"Incidental Striking": ties in with economy of motion ... as you move, clip nerves, muscles, weak areas, of the body. Bump with your hips, shoulders, etc (also mentioned previously in this thread). Not every strike has to be a finisher. A strike that distracts and/or sets up a finisher is as valuable as the finisher itself.

Of course, the only way to achieve anything in martial arts is practice, practice, practice ... but these are some of the things I use when practicing to try to develop better overall striking speed.

Mike

[Freeform]

Yeah, what Mike said but in less words ;)

Relax, Tense, Relax, Tense

You should only be tense for the barest minimal of time, that point of contact.

Thanx

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Freeform
Yeah, what Mike said but in less words ;)

Relax, Tense, Relax, Tense

You should only be tense for the barest minimal of time, that point of contact.

Thanx

LOL :)

Yup ... if you want to be succinct about the whole thing :) What can I say, I enjoy typing ;)

Mike

[Cooler]

And you do it so well Mike so keep it up.

Cooler

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Cooler
And you do it so well Mike so keep it up.

Cooler

LOL ... thanks :) Verbosity is my middle name ... well, actually it's Edward ... but I think that must mean verbosity in some language somewhere :)

Mike

[Andy Murray]

Hit the sod properly the first time and save the energy for the other 22 guys!

'With real emotional content'

[Freeform]

Yeah, as my old sensei used to say, 'If you have to hit him more than once you screwed it up!' :)

[waya]

That is why baseball bats were invented :-)
When in doubt even the odds? lol

I see alot of the speed training has been over commercialized along with everything else lately. Any of y'all see those ads to become Superman in the magazines? How many of them really know what they are talking about do you think?

Rob

[Andy Murray]

FOR SALE!

One pair of Blue Spandex leggings. One Red Cape. As new.

The Wing Chun system trains chain punching. I reckon this has to be the fastest form of striking there is.

[waya]

I haven't seen much of that. My knowledge of the Chinese systems is very limited.... elaborate if you would lol.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by waya

I see alot of the speed training has been over commercialized along with everything else lately. Any of y'all see those ads to become Superman in the magazines? How many of them really know what they are talking about do you think?


I think if they actually had a clue they would realize that you can't make anyone invincible. It's just a marketing ploy.

If they do actually have some martial skill then it's *really* sad that they would stoop so far to make a buck.

Mike

[Andy Murray]

The Wing Chun punch has the knuckles in a vertical as opposed to a horizontal line. The starting position for the punch is halfway to the target. There is no hip twist or shoulder rotation involved, you simply thrust out the fists alternately, with the punching hand passing over the retracting hand. The punch hits with the lower three knuckles of the hand. The arm and hand are relaxed until the moment of impact!

A Karate punch is like an Iron Bar!

A Kung Fu punch is like an Iron Chain, with an Iron Ball on the end!

The last bit is lifted from a TV interview with Bruce Lee

[waya]

I find the knuckles used a bit odd as they are the ones easiest to break. I use a vertical punch but never hit with the floating knuckles

Rob

[Andy Murray]

If it's not broken, you don't have to fix it!

I'm happier doing 'breaks' with those knuckles, then I am with the first two.

I may argue a lot, but I aint gonna question a system as old and scientifically unique as Wing Chun.

I know a TKD guy, who had an impact break on the knuckle of the smallest finger, so I know what you mean Rob.

Andy M

[waya]

lol I have broken them before that's why I don't use them now, but then again I was never taught specifically to strike with them so that would have a major impact on doing it.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by waya
I find the knuckles used a bit odd as they are the ones easiest to break. I use a vertical punch but never hit with the floating knuckles

Rob

I believe that the intent is not the "strike" with the lower three knuckles. They make initial contact but the actual force is delivered with the first two knuckles in a rolling motion on the very end which then feeds into the retraction of the strike. Of course, I've never studied WC so I don't know how the system does it.

Mike

[waya]

hmmmmmmm put like that it makes complete sense LOL

Rob

[Andy Murray]

Mike,

I don't believe this is accurate, but I'd like a second opinion!

The specifics of the Wing Chun Vertical punch should perhaps be on the Kung Fu Forum?

I am wary of 'hijacking' T Vince's thread, as it is about speedhitting!

Andy M

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Mike,

I don't believe this is accurate, but I'd like a second opinion!

As I say, I'm not a WC player so don't know how WC does it or perceives it. I know this is how I was taught it ... but I also know that my instructor's primary background is Kali and Silat so I'm sure that his method was influenced by these.

I figure that however WC guys do it, it must have merit because it works for them. I know the way I was taught has merit because it works for me. Which is "better" ... depends on who you ask and everybody would be correct in their answer :)

The specifics of the Wing Chun Vertical punch should perhaps be on the Kung Fu Forum?

I am wary of 'hijacking' T Vince's thread, as it is about speedhitting!

Andy M

Yup ... very good point :)

Mike

[Thomas Vince]

In some Karate styles there are actually 4 ranges to a naturally punching hand. Uppercut, Twist Punch, Verticle Punch, and an Inverted Verticle Punch. The twist punch is never thrown about the shoulders because it exposes the second knuckle digit tothe target rather than the actual large and first joint of the fingers known as the knuckles. The Verticle punch is used anytime the punch needs to be higher than the shouder.

[khafra]

I've noticed anecdotally, though not statistically, that Wing Chun competitors in tournaments seem to be somewhat injury-prone. It could be that when the style was created, in the interests of training expediency the operator's safety was one of the things less emphasized.
On another note, I believe Southern Crane style also emphasizes very quick hitting, anybody know how they accomplish that?

[Thomas Vince]

What about methods in increasing speed, does your breathing has anything to do with it, what about "patterns' that the hands are moved in, aligning specific targets when mutliple striking in being practiced and lastly do you gauge the power or are all the shots like a wave start at one impact level rise to thier peak and then fall as they get weaker?
Thank you people great conversation!!!!
Thomas:D :D :D

[waya]

I would say breathing and relaxation are key factors. I'm not sure about specific hand movements as I have never used anything that drilled because it doesn't flow naturally for me. Keep in mind that the only thing I can hit 23 times in one second is the backspace key :-) But I really think that natural motion and relaxation will greatly improve speed.

Rob

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
What about methods in increasing speed, does your breathing has anything to do with it, what about "patterns' that the hands are moved in, aligning specific targets when mutliple striking in being practiced and lastly do you gauge the power or are all the shots like a wave start at one impact level rise to thier peak and then fall as they get weaker?
Thank you people great conversation!!!!
Thomas:D :D :D

In the FMA, we use a variety of drills to build these attributes. The primary, though, would probably be the "hubad lubad" drills. They teach and ingrain a lot of principles into the body such as sensitivity, flow, trapping, not getting trapped, finding holes in your opponent's defenses, closing your own holes, economy and efficiency of motion. Relaxation is emphasized throughout the development because without relaxation the rest of these attributes are stunted.

Mike

[Andrew Green]

Chain punching is not really something that is that hard to train, most of my students can do about 8/sec which is about the 23 in 3 seconds that this punch is on after about 6 - 12 months. I do it quite a bit faster then them. Do the punches have power? Yes. Do they have KO level power? No that is not their function.

What spurred my timing of such things was the adds for the speedman's videos. It seemed a little to quick to be possible, so I timed myself and some of my students and did faster then he advertised himself as being able to get me to do.

My main reason for doing it is to eliminate unneccessary motion, makes punches less telegraphed. The jab may not knock you out but the follow up will do a little more.

[Freeform]

A Karate punch is like an Iron Bar!

I used to think that as well before I started in Shotokan, and I'd say yes and no.

On the point of impact your classic karate punches (Oi zuki or Gyaku zuki) should be like that iron bar puching through your solar plexus. But it is only tense at the point of contact to increase speed, because when your tense the muscles are fighting against each other. You get a lot of people who haven't learned this lesson, as well as fully locking out their arm on punching, and this is where that 'stiff karate punch' comes from.

In Tai Jistu we practice rapid striking, but the idea behind it being that the fast strikes are only a distraction to line up your opponent for that killer KO shot.

Thanx

[Andy Murray]

Just to tidy up a loose end. As I said I don't claim to be an authority on Wing Chun.

So I posted some of the questions raised here on a Wing Chun Forum and got some very useful information. Glad you all asked them.

Wing Chun's vertical punch 'does' transfer all it's power using the lower three knuckles. ( See inch punch for details )

A physiologist explained that bones in the hand are very hard to break, though they can be diplaced. Wall bag training coupled with good technique should mean that this is not a problem.

As for Wing Chun guys getting injured at tournaments. The Wing Chun community acknowledges that many of it's practitioners are in less than perfect physical condition (some are old men after all)
I would like to point out though that Wing Chun is not a sport, but a pure system of personal defence. As a system of Defence, it is second to none, and I suggest you all take a class as soon as you can!

[Thomas Vince]

Let me clear something up here. The weapons used in this striking sequence were not all punches. In fact there was an even mix of closed hand and open hand strikes as well as using the feet! In Kenpo we consider a three hand kenpo technique as striking with both hands and a foot.
Question, how do you in your martial art work in footwork and foot placement and how does this enhance your power or speed?
Great topic guys I have a lot of great stuff!
Thomas