what are some techs for this ma?

[Cougar_v203]

like the topic header said :^)

[YODA]

Well - the basics of the Silat system that we study (Mande Muda) include...

Sapu
Biset
Puter kepala
Kenjit

Of cousre that's just a list of foreign words- I'm sure Mike (Pesilat) will be along to give you more detail :D

[Cougar_v203]

Where are you pesilat? you have exactly 99 seconds to get here before i drag you by the ear ;)

[pesilat]

Smooth hand off, Yoda. You're a relay racer aren't you? :D

I actually spent the day today with my Kuntao Silat instructor, Willem "Uncle Bill" de Thouars. As such, you'll get no apologies from me for my slow response to this ;)

I'd say that Yoda pretty much summed it up, though I'd add "kunci" to his list.

So, here's my list:
Sapu
Biset
Puter kepala
Kenjit
Kunci

My background includes a fair amount of Mande Muda (same as Yoda's), and some Serak. And also influences from minor exposure to other things like some Mustika Kwitang and some of what Uncle refers to simply as "West Javanese" and "East Javanese" Silats.

So, the explanation I'm about to give for the list of "techniques" above is my own personal extrapolation/interpretation from all these sources.

First, the "techniques" listed above are really more "concepts" than "techniques." Each describes a family of techniques more than a single technique.

On top of that list, you've got Luar and Dalam for many of the techniques.

The terminology I use is from my primary instructor, Guru Ken Pannell and may or may not be used by other Silat systems.

So:
Luar - outside

Dalam - inside

Sapu - forward sweep may be done outside (sapu luar) or inside (sapu dalam)

Biset - backward sweep (biset luar and biset dalam)

Puter kepala - head turning throw

Kenjit - compression

Kunci - lock

There is kenjit kaki which is leg compression. Kenjit siko which is elbow compression. These are deceptive translations, though, because they're not consistent. Kenjit kaki means that I'm compressing my opponent's leg. Kenjit siko means that I'm compressing my elbow. I'll elaborate more in a little bit. And, in fact, I may have to clean this up some and have it put into the "Styles" section of the magazine :D

Then puter kepala and kenjit siko also have "reverse" methods. Then kenjit siko and and bisets also have "quarter" methods. And there's also a "leg in" kenjit siko.

Kunci can be used to describe any type of lock. Technically, this word translates as "key" so I'm not sure why it's used for locks, but it sometimes is. It is also sometimes used to denote "keys" of an art. The language of Silat (at least here in America) can get kind of confusing. I think this comes from the fact that many of the early teachers didn't speak much English and/or didn't really have any kind of names for the techniques they used. So their American students came up with the names and I think they sometimes got the linguistics muddled. But that's purely conjecture on my part.

OK. For sapu dalam and sapu luar, the easiest thing for you to do is to go watch the vid clips I have on my site at http://www.impactacademy.com/videos


Note: these descriptions are very broken down and will sound like they aren't fluid but, trust me, at speed, they are very fluid.

Bear in mind, also, that my descriptions are just one example (the most common example that I've seen) of how the concepts can be applied.

There are also several standard entries that I could go into, but I'm not going to ;). Be creatively painful with your imagination of how I get to the beginning positions of each of these.

Biset luar. I'm inside his arms and I've got his right wrist in my left hand and my right hand is across his chest and over his left shoulder. He's in a right lead and I'm in a right lead with my right leg behind his right leg. The right sides of our bodies are as closely meshed as possible so that, ideally, everything from my right armpit down to my right hip is flush against the right side of his body. I pivot 45 degrees to my left, moving him ahead of me (he pivots around my hip). As I continue to pivot left to 90 degrees, I drag my right leg diagonally back through his leg to take him down.

Biset dalam. I've got his right wrist in my right hand and my left hand at his elbow with an armbar. We're facing the same way. He's in a right lead, I'm in a left with my left leg in front of his right leg. My left hip is flush against his right hip. I pivot 45 degress to the right, driving him in front of my (with the armbar). As I continue to 90 degrees, I drag my left foot diagonally back through his leg to take him down.

I'm not going to even try to describe the quarter biset. I don't think I could do it justice.

Puter kepala. I'm inside with my right hand behind his head and his left hand on his right wrist. I lift up and to the right with my left arm while dropping down and to the left with my right hand. Making a circle with my hands and throwing him. This is very directional. I can sit him directly down in front of me. I can stand him back up. I can throw him away from me in a variety of directions.

Reverse puter kepala. I'm outside his line with his right arm trapped against his chest with my left hand and my right hand on his forehead. I push his head back and down to break his balance, then lower my right arm to take him down.

Kenjit siko. We're facing the same way. My left side is flush against his right. I'm in a horse stance with my left leg behind his right leg. My left arm is extended across his chest and I've already broken his balance so he's bent back over my left leg. I compress my elbow through his chest toward the ground behind my left leg to take him down.

Reverse kenjit siko. We're facing opposite directions. My right side is flush against his right side. I'm in a horse stance with my right leg in front of his right leg. My left arm is extended behind his back and he's unbalanced to his front. I compress my right elbow into his back, first upwards to break his balance further, then down toward the ground behind my right leg to take him down.

Kenjit kaki. I've got my left foot hooked around his right foot. I lower my knee to compress through his leg and take him down. Another variation would be that I do an oblique kick (a "dempok") to his leg/knee to compress his leg and take him down.

Kunci. Any kind of lock.

I'd also say that sepok, dempok, and silaw are pretty representative of Silat. But I'll leave those for Yoda to explain if he wants (see, I can handle a baton too ;) )

Mike

[Fergie Boy]

Step forward with commitment. Steal oppnents balance and put him down cutting all the way.

[Cougar_v203]

forward sweep?...what?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Cougar_v203
forward sweep?...what?

Not sure what you're asking :)

But, like I said, the easiest way for me to describe the sapu (forward sweep) is for you to watch the vid clips at http://www.impactacademy.com/videos

Mike

[Cougar_v203]

the sapu dalam video confused me a bit.
let me see if I have this correct:
Opponent Swings a left or right hook
you duck under and you have one arm on their back (right?)
you then take the closest leg thats close to your opponent and use that leg to trip em. is this correct?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Cougar_v203
the sapu dalam video confused me a bit.
let me see if I have this correct:
Opponent Swings a left or right hook
you duck under and you have one arm on their back (right?)
you then take the closest leg thats close to your opponent and use that leg to trip em. is this correct?

Essentially, yes. However, it doesn't have to be a hook. I shot that clip specifically to illustrate that specific usage of the technique. There are many ways to get to it.

Basically, as I was taught, you've got a set of entries, a set of transitions, and a set of techniques. You can get from any entry to any technique (via the transitions).

How many entries, transitions, and technical essences (the sapu, biset, etc.) you have will depend on how you break them down and count them.

But, the way my instructor breaks it down at the basic level, is that there are 3 basic entries (one outside entry, one split entry, and one inside entry) and 2 basic technical essences (this is at the most basic level where people start). He doesn't enumerate the transitions, but there are a handful of standard transitions at the basic level.

So, what this gives you is a 3 x 2 matrix. You can go from any of the 3 entries to either of the technical essences. This means that, from this matrix, you have a possibility of 6 different techniques.

If we stick with just those 3 basic entries, but add a few more technical essences (the 5 listed in this thread), now you've got a possibility of 15 distinct techniques. And that's not counting the variations I mentioned on some of the 5 technical essences listed in this thread.

So, you can see, that 2 dimensional matrix can get pretty big when you have, say, 8 entries and 8 technical essences. Now you're looking at 64 distinct techniques.

And that's still at the "basic" level. The matrix that gets developed is actually 3 dimensional. Because you can also go from any technical essence to any technical essence. So that if one breaks down or is resisted/countered, you flow to another. So, now, going back to the original 3 x 2, it becomes a 3 x 2 x 2 matrix and suddenly you've got 12 distinct techniques/combinations. And that's still not quite accurate.

If the 2 technical essences you're using are, for instance, sapu and biset. Then you've also got the variations: sapu luar, sapu dalam, biset luar, biset dalam, quarter biset luar, quarter biset dalam. And you've got 2 variations of the sapu luar, the "side line" and the "L line". So, now that matrix becomes 3 x 7 x 7 and you've got 147 distinct techniques/combinations that you can do.

As you can see, the Silat (at least as I've learned it) starts with a very small core, then broadens and deepens exponentially as you progress. At the end, you end up with a handful of entries, a handful of transitions, and a handful of technical essences, but a virtually infinite number of techniques/combinations that can be drawn out of them. The actual numbers, like I said, will depend on how you (or your instructor) breaks them out and counts them.

But the numbers don't get very big when broken apart. I think, at the most broken down, I can come up with about 10 entries and 15 technical essences. We really only have a couple of transitions that we specifically isolate at basic levels because, as you progress, you learn to find transitions "on the fly" based on the energy you receive from your training partner/uke/opponent (depending on the situation).

So, with 10 entries and 15 technical essences, that's pretty managable. When you start looking at it, though, there's a possibility of 2250 distinct techniques.

And, once again, that's not really the whole picture :) Because all of that can be done standing, kneeling, or lying on the ground. So, really, if you opted to count it as such, you could count it as 6750 distinct techniques (and beginners sometimes perceive it as such when they see their instructor flowing from one thing to the next because the beginner doesn't yet understand the underlying principles and the fact that it's really all the same core set of entries and technical essences).

Confused yet?

Mike

Mike

[pesilat]

Oh. And there's more ;)

You can also sweep hands, knees, elbows, even heads. Anything that's touching the floor can be swept. And some people might count these as different techniques even though it's still the same sapu or biset.

Also, you can do sweeps with other parts of your body. For instance, if I'm on my knees, I can do a biset luar with my hand/arm. I don't have to use my leg to do the sweeps. These could also be counted as individual techniques and would jack the total number of possibilities up even higher.

Mike

[Cougar_v203]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[pesilat]

Ha ha! See the true power of Silat! I'm not even in the same state as you but, still, I can stun you :D

It's kind of like finding the mountain (the permutations) beneath the mole hill (the core elements) ;)

But, really, I think every art could be laid out like this. They just use a different approach in their training.

Mike

[pesilat]

This whole "matrix" thing can also be illustrated with the Indonesian term "pecahan" (pronounced "pet-cha-han").

The word literally translates as "fragment." But also refers to a form of divination where they drop a glass vase and read the future in the pattern of the fragments.

In Silat, I've seen the term applied to several concepts. But it fits this discussion, too.

The basic elements (entries, transitions, and technical essences) are the vase. When you drop it (put it into application), it shatters into a bunch of fragments. Each is unique in its own way, but each is still a part of the basic whole.

Mike

[Cougar_v203]

the second one (the one you duck the guys attack) do you hit them with your elbow? because thats the message i'm getting.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Cougar_v203
the second one (the one you duck the guys attack) do you hit them with your elbow? because thats the message i'm getting.

Absolutely. The Silat I train in, as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, draws from several sources. But a large proportion of those sources are "pukulan" systems. "Pukulan" literally means "to hit."

Pukulan systems do a lot of hitting. Pretty much anywhere we can fit a strike, we do. The strikes are used to disrupt the opponent's balance and, often, to take the opponent down. And, like any other art, the strikes are also used for causing injury, distraction, to set up locks, etc. But, generally, they're geared toward unbalancing the guy and taking him down.

In fact, in that video, there are a couple of elbow strikes. I strike to his ribs with my elbow as I bob under his hook. Then I do a back downward elbow strike into his kidney to unbalance him, then I kick is leg out as I move through him.

All the Silat that I do is based on walking. In fact, "all" Silat may be based on walking, I don't know. But all of it that I've been exposed to is largely based on walking. So the intent is to "walk through" the opponent. But the "walking" can be done while on your feet, on your knees, or even on the ground. It's not just a physical "walk", it's an attitude, too. It's a mindset.

Here's a little comparison/contrast insight into the Silat mindset. In Japanese/Okinawan arts, they use the term, "uke" for the person who gets the short end of the stick in training. "Uke" means (roughly) "receiver." And it's a good word, but it's somewhat "nice." Which is sometimes deceptive, of course, but nonetheless, it's a "nice" word."

In Silat, I've heard 2 terms for the "uke." One is "murid mati" which means "dead student." A little different mindset, eh? The other is "sujit" which means "prop." The "uke" isn't even a person. He's a prop.

Though, here in America, many Silat players come from a Karate background or exposure and use the term "uke."

But the mindset is still there. It's not a person in front of me. It's an obstacle that I have to "walk" through to get to my goal. Nothing more. Nothing less. But since it's in my way, I'm going to walk through it with extreme prejudice :D

There's a book called "Indonesian Fighting Fundamentals" by Bob Orlando. It's a good book. Primarily it discusses the Kuntao Silat of Willem de Thouars. But in one place, he relates a story about the difference between Silat and Kuntao. I think it also is a good example of the mindset of Silat, and you get a little insight into the Kuntao mindset, too.


On one mountain top, a Silat master is fighting an opponent. He crashes into the opponent, and through the opponent, knocking him off the mountain. The man hits the bottom of the mountain, dead.

On another mountain top, a Kuntao master is fighting an opponent. He moves in, delivering a punishing series of strikes to punish the attacker, then knocks him off the mountain. The man, still alive, falls down the side of the mountain, striking every rock along the way, and dies slowly at the base of the mountain.


I know I don't have the exact wording that Bob used in the book, but it's a pretty close paraphrase.

And as Uncle Bill (Willem de Thouars) said at a seminar once, "Training with me is 5 things. Pain, pain, pain, pain, pain." You can tell he's a Kuntao Silat man, and I can attest to the truth of that claim. I'm feeling some of that pain right now (I've been visiting and training with Uncle Bill this past week) :D

Mike

[Cougar_v203]

w00t! w00t! I Roxored my friends boxorz...wait that didn't sound right, anyways thanks i'll have to try it next time on my g/f :D sike.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Cougar_v203
w00t! w00t! I Roxored my friends boxorz...wait that didn't sound right, anyways thanks i'll have to try it next time on my g/f :D sike.

You're a strange 'un Cougar ;)

"Have fun stormin' the castle."

Mike

[Cougar_v203]

damn her defenses are too strong lol :D
only one man stormed the castle :)
I know i'm strange.

to.hard.to.run.with.thing.on.back...WAAAAAHAHAHA!! !....I think I wet myself.

[paulsilat]

I have just seen the video clips that the link connects to, and I was far from impressed.

This is by no means meant as an insult, but the techniques were sloppy, and the lankha was nothing short of embarrasing.

Having trained in traditional Sumatran Minangkabua silat for many years, it is important for me to emphasize the essential part that a solid, rooted lankha foundation has to play in pulling off any silat "technique".

On the "Depok to Sapu Luar" clip, the instructor has NO stabilty in his movement, and temporarily loses his balance after the 1st sweep, and he doesn't use a depok (cross-over leg) at all.

On the video where he uses the clothing of the attacker, it fails to work even at slow speed, with a standing still opponent.

I do not mean to personally attack anybody or any system, but I have seen many people give the art of Silat a bad name over the years, and have become very padantic about the importance of the basic principles in every technique.

Once again, this is not meant to insult anyone, but are just my honest opinions.

Kind Regards
Paul

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by paulsilat
I have just seen the video clips that the link connects to, and I was far from impressed.

This is by no means meant as an insult, but the techniques were sloppy, and the lankha was nothing short of embarrasing.

Having trained in traditional Sumatran Minangkabua silat for many years, it is important for me to emphasize the essential part that a solid, rooted lankha foundation has to play in pulling off any silat "technique".

On the "Depok to Sapu Luar" clip, the instructor has NO stabilty in his movement, and temporarily loses his balance after the 1st sweep, and he doesn't use a depok (cross-over leg) at all.

On the video where he uses the clothing of the attacker, it fails to work even at slow speed, with a standing still opponent.

I do not mean to personally attack anybody or any system, but I have seen many people give the art of Silat a bad name over the years, and have become very padantic about the importance of the basic principles in every technique.

Once again, this is not meant to insult anyone, but are just my honest opinions.

Kind Regards
Paul

Hi Paul, and welcome to the forum.

I believe Mike AKA Pesilat, who is a respected stateside FMA practitioner (not to mention Forum Moderator), simply posted some basic examples so we all knew what he was talking about. The Mpeg, having just viewed it, is obviously an 'off the cuff' example as you can tell by the informal environment and the big cheesy grins.

If you have better examples of this technique, then please feel free to post them for our edification.

Incidentally, Mikes going to be over here soon teaching seminars, so maybe you can come and play?

Take Care.

Andy.

[paulsilat]

Andy,

Thanks for the reply.

Like I said, I meant no disrespect or meant to insult anybody with my comments. I have a tendancy to say exactly what I think, and that was my opinion of those specific clips. Even with the informal aspect, I don't think my comments were that scathing or unjustified, but I will refrain in future from such postings.

I guess I wont get a 2nd chance to make a 1st impression, so I wish you guys good luck in your training.

Is the seminar being held in the UK (where I live), if so, I would be very interested in attending, as there are very few silat instructors here, and regardless of how my comments sounded, I am always open to learning new things from other people.

My apologies if I was harsh, but I guess that has been instilled in me by the way I was taught. It is something I am working on!

Regards
Paul

[YODA]

Welome to MAP Paul - good to see you're getting the idea - Be nice!

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by paulsilat
Andy,

Thanks for the reply.

Like I said, I meant no disrespect or meant to insult anybody with my comments. I have a tendancy to say exactly what I think, and that was my opinion of those specific clips. Even with the informal aspect, I don't think my comments were that scathing or unjustified, but I will refrain in future from such postings.

I guess I wont get a 2nd chance to make a 1st impression, so I wish you guys good luck in your training.

Regards
Paul

Well that's a reasonably good recovery Paul. :D

I'm sure Mike will explain the circumstances the clips were taken in presently, and you'll find him an excellent source of information on FMA.

If I said what I actually thought every day, then the world would drown in it's own tears. The clever thing to do, is get people to understand your point of view, as opposed to shattering their own. Ask questions, and consider the answers carefully.

Apologies if that seems like a lecture, I have a tendency to say what I think.

Over to Mike........

[pesilat]

Hi Paul. Welcome to MAP. First, rest assured that I take no personal insult from your post. Your opinion is your opinion. I'm guessing that since you live in the UK and train in Minangkabau Silat, I would assume you're in the lineage of (if not a direct student of) Guru Richard de Bordes.

I've had the opportunity to train with him once at a seminar in Dallas. Very impressive :)

Now, let me address your comments about the vids. As I said, I take no personal insult from your post. So, please take my return reply in the same spirit - simply a sharing of knowledge/opinion.

First, bear in mind that video is not a great medium to see things. It's a 2 dimensinoal representation of 3 dimensional actions.

Second, as was previously mentioned, those clips (particularly the Sapu and Carenza vids) are very "off the cuff."

Now, before I continue, let me give you a brief overview of my MA background. I don't know how many years you've been training and I'm not trying to get into a "who's the senior practitioner" argument. I just want to give you an idea of my background so you know where I'm coming from. You can read my entire MA bio at my website: http://www.impactacademy.com/guru_mike_info.php

But here's a brief overview as specifically relates to my Silat background. I started training in Kali and Silat in 1995. The specific system is called "Sikal" and is a hybrid of elements from several systems of Filipino martial arts and several systems of Silat. The primary influences from the FMA are Lacoste/Inosanto, Balintawak, and Doce Pares Eskrima/Eskrido. My personal tastes run toward the Eskrido but it's all good :) On the Silat side, my instructor, Guru Ken Pannell, had trained for, I believe, 6 years with Paul de Thouars in Bukti Negara and about 10 years with Herman Suwanda in Mande Muda. So the Sikal blend drew from those heavily.

In 1998, I met Willem de Thouars and began training in his Kuntao Silat de Thouars, though I wasn't an "official" student until January of 2002. In 1999, Willem hooked my instructor up with his brother, Victor de Thouars, and our group began training in Pentjak Silat Serak.

I no longer train specifically in Silat Serak, but my exposure to it certainly affected my Silat work.

Originally posted by paulsilat
This is by no means meant as an insult, but the techniques were sloppy, and the lankha was nothing short of embarrasing.

Don't understand this comment at all. Could you elaborate?

What was sloppy or embarrassing about it?


On the "Depok to Sapu Luar" clip, the instructor has NO stabilty in his movement, and temporarily loses his balance after the 1st sweep, and he doesn't use a depok (cross-over leg) at all.

Refer to my comment on video. I assure you that I was completely stable. The "loss of balance" was me avoiding taking my student down. He has a bad knee that was acting up that day so I was trying to be careful. Also, feces occurs. Sometimes you lose your balance :)

As for no "depok" ... I don't know how you could miss it :) The kick to the knee is the depok. A depok needn't always go all the way to the floor.


On the video where he uses the clothing of the attacker, it fails to work even at slow speed, with a standing still opponent.

Eh?

Well, first, it was slow speed and he was standing still because I was teaching. If I did it at full speed, the people at the workshop would've had a hard time following what I was doing.

As far as it not working? I don't know what you mean by that at all.

I can only assume you mean the second thing shown in the clip where I start to go inside of his arm, then I switch and go outside.

If you listen to the audio, it's pretty evident (or at leat, I think so) that I'm simply showing 2 possible options. I can get to the choke from the inside or the outside of his arm - same, same.

This material comes from the Cipecut in Mande Muda. Traditionally, it's done with a sarong. But when I would show people the material with a sarong, they would say, "Cool. But I don't wear a sarong."

So I took the principles used and applied them to clothes that people do wear here in the US.



I do not mean to personally attack anybody or any system, but I have seen many people give the art of Silat a bad name over the years, and have become very padantic about the importance of the basic principles in every technique.

This one borders on being insulting to me, but if I had watched the video clips and seen (or not seen) what you stated, then I would probably have the same opinion.

I represent Silat to the absolute best of my ability. I freely admit that I'm not the best Silat man around. In fact, with only 8 years of Silat, I'm a relative beginner compared to people like my instructor. Never mind people like Dan Inosanto or, especially, people like Willem de Thouars. Or, if my assumption on your lineage is correct, people like Guru de Bordes. My 8 years is a pretty paltry amount compared to their 20+, 30+, 40+, 50+ years (depending on which person you're referring to).

But to say that I'm a poor representation or embarrassment to Silat is pretty harsh. Especially when I have received personal compliments from various world-class Silat players like Herman Suwanda or Willem de Thouars on my ability and understanding in Silat. I know, I'm kinda tooting my own horn a little. Normally I'm a bit more modest. But you were honest with me, I'm being honest with you :)

Mike

[pesilat]

Originally posted by paulsilat
I guess I wont get a 2nd chance to make a 1st impression, so I wish you guys good luck in your training.

I don't think your 1st impression was all that bad. I have no problem with honesty.

Is the seminar being held in the UK (where I live), if so, I would be very interested in attending, as there are very few silat instructors here, and regardless of how my comments sounded, I am always open to learning new things from other people.

You'd be more than welcome to come. Nothing's been confirmed yet, except that I will be the UK in December. I'm talking to a couple of people trying to arrange a seminar or two while I'm over there but, as I said, nothing's been confirmed yet.

Now, let me ask you something, Paul. Do you have any comments on what has been discussed in this thread (vid clips aside)?

Mike

[paulsilat]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the concise and candid reply. Re-reading my post, it seems very over-the-top, and to be honest, I'm a little embarrassed to have posted it!:( . Never a good idea to post stuff after 2am local time!

FYI, I don't train with Guru Richard, although I am aware of his awsome reputation.

I would be interested in attending any seminars you may give in the UK, and will keep my eyes open for one.

I am also aware of the excellent lineague you have trained under.

I hope to partake in discussions within this board in the future, and wish you luck in your training.

Take care mate!

Paul

[pesilat]

Originally posted by paulsilat
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the concise and candid reply. Re-reading my post, it seems very over-the-top, and to be honest, I'm a little embarrassed to have posted it!:( . Never a good idea to post stuff after 2am local time!

LOL. Not to worry. I've made that mistake a few times myself in the past.

FYI, I don't train with Guru Richard, although I am aware of his awsome reputation.

OK. I'm curious, though, could you elaborate on your background. I'm not all that familiar with the Silat scene in the UK. The only one I'm aware of there at all is Guru de Bordes. Fill me in :)

I would be interested in attending any seminars you may give in the UK, and will keep my eyes open for one.

Cool. I'll be arriving in London on December 3. I leave on December 16.

I'm trying to get at least one, maybe two seminars set up during that time. Not sure what I'd be teaching, depends on what the host would want.

I'm traveling right now, finishing up a week of training with Willem de Thouars. When I get back home on Monday, I'll start getting in touch with people and try to pin down a date or two.

There's a guy in Birmingham I need to contact who may be interested. And a guy on another forum is looking into some possibilities for me.

My primary reason for coming over there is to meet some of the people I know from online (like Melanie, Yoda, and others from here and other forums that I'm on). If I can put together a seminar or two, then I could make some pocket change and write part of the trip off as a business expense. So much the better :)

Mike

[waya]

On the video where he uses the clothing of the attacker, it fails to work even at slow speed, with a standing still opponent.

I am not an FMA practitioner by any means, but I have to comment on this having been the subject of a few of Mike's clothing attacks (and very intimate with his living room floor :eek: ). They do work quite well. It was a new concept for me and I was impressed with how well they worked against a myriad of attacks.

Rob

[paulsilat]

Hi Mike,

Hope you've had a good week.

I was wondering, do you guys practice the Kembagan over there? What about Ilmu training? It's not something that you read about a lot, and wanted to see if it is trained on the other side of the pond!

Cheers
Paul

[pesilat]

Originally posted by paulsilat
Hi Mike,

Hope you've had a good week.

I was wondering, do you guys practice the Kembagan over there? What about Ilmu training? It's not something that you read about a lot, and wanted to see if it is trained on the other side of the pond!

Cheers
Paul

Kembangan, yes. Though whether it's the same Kembangan as you do or not is a whole different matter :)

Some Kembangan are preset forms. Some are done in time to music. Some are freestyle.

Most of the Kembangan I do is of the freestyle version. I do have about half of a preset Kembangan form from Tjikalong (Paleredan) in Mande Muda. It's traditionally done in time to Gamelan music but I've only practiced it that way a few times.

Ilmu, I don't practice. I'm aware of it and have known some people who practice it ... and I've known some who claim it but are full of $#!@. And I've known some who know *a lot* about it and can do it, but choose not to practice it because they don't trust themselves with it.

Mike

[Cougar_v203]

they don't trust themselves? Explain.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Cougar_v203
they don't trust themselves? Explain.

The simplest explanation would probably be that ilmu might be considered the "dark side" or, at least, a gateway to it. At least, that's the impression that I've gotten from some of them. This may be in part because a lot of the Dutch-Indonesians are Christians and the ilmu comes more from the animistic roots of the Indonesian culture.

I had one guy (a Dutch-Indonesian) tell me, "A lot of the Indonesians think that we [Dutch-Indos] don't understand Ilmu or have a counter to it. But that's not the case. We grew up in the culture and understand it the same as they do. If I wanted to, I could make water run from my palm right now. But I'm not willing to pay the price it would cost in my energy."

Whether he really could make water pour from his palm or not, I don't know. But that's what he said. And, speaking purely theoretically, if someone had enough control over their bodily functions, they could cause the palm to sweat and open the pores in the palm enough to make the sweat "pour" out.

As I say, these are just the impressions that I've gotten from them on the subject.

I've heard some really interesting and bizarre stories about ilmu. I've not seen any definitive demonstrations. Though I've seen some interesting things (like a straight up telepath ... at least, he was able to convince me that he was, might have been parlor tricks, but if so, he was a heck of a magician). But these weren't related to ilmu (though an Indonesian might have considered them as such, I don't know).

Mike

[dredleviathan]

Hi Mike,

Many thanks for your great explanations - the videos really helped me to identify techniques that I have learned under a different name. I don't "do" Silat but I have no doubt that some of the stuff we learn looks Silat-like or could be due to my instructors being exposed to it.

Anyway it was great to get a technical insight into some Silat concepts.

As a matter of fact we have recently been playing with some drills ending in the Sapu (luar and dalam) that you mention (and previously the Biset). As you mention in your later post we weren't given a list of entries, transitions and finishes either but given a format to work in. i.e. for a drill you might have your opponent jab, cross to start with. Chose an inside, a split & an outside entry, a transition (as applicable) and then finsh with the sapu most applicable.

We were doing this under the guise of a Panantukan drill as it was the entries and transitions that we were really working... and especially the ability to read the most applicable entries/transition etc.

It was also explained that the Filipino way of doing the forward sweep was less constrained (by this I mean that the form was not so important as it is just seen as a way of getting the person down so that you can hit them some more). I understand that in Silat the form of the Sapu is considered to be very important. I don't know how true this distinction is.

The other thing that I found interesting was a sector count that my instructor used:

Sector 1: Outside of lead foot (luar by your definition I think)
Sector 2: Trapping lead foot
Sector 3: Inside lead foot (dalam)
Sector 4: Inside rear foot (dalam)
Sector 5: Trapping rear foot
Sector 6: Outside rear foot (luar)

I'd not come across this before but found it a useful structure to consider.

I'd like to learn more about Silat I think!

Yoda - what are sepok, dempok, and silaw then?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by dredleviathan
Hi Mike,

Many thanks for your great explanations - the videos really helped me to identify techniques that I have learned under a different name. I don't "do" Silat but I have no doubt that some of the stuff we learn looks Silat-like or could be due to my instructors being exposed to it.

Anyway it was great to get a technical insight into some Silat concepts.

Glad I could be of help :)


It was also explained that the Filipino way of doing the forward sweep was less constrained (by this I mean that the form was not so important as it is just seen as a way of getting the person down so that you can hit them some more). I understand that in Silat the form of the Sapu is considered to be very important. I don't know how true this distinction is.

The distinction is very apparent at the basic levels. But in the end, it becomes less apparent. In the Silat (at least as I've learned it), it starts rather stiff (almost robotic) but that's just a training mode to ingrain the principles of the movements into the body and mind. Over time, the form starts relaxing and, to the outside viewer, becomes less strict.

It's like your focus mitt work. At first, you're taught very precise body mechanics and you go through it rather slowly and robotically. Or, at least, this is the way I was first taught. Then, over time, it becomes second nature and you start getting more relaxed and fluid. To an inexperienced outside viewer, it may look like you're just flailing, but because you started slow and precise, your movements are still precise and economical, just much more fluid and dynamic. At this point, you'll find yourself doing things that are not technically "correct" but they are "proper" at that time with the energy you're presented. Your body is just going with the flow.

The sweeps, in my experience, are the same. A lot of the FMA sweeping is, at the beginning, less precise than the Silat sweeping. But, over time, the Silat player loosens up and maintains the precision. The FMA player, over time, gains that precision. And, in the end, they end up in basically the same place.




The other thing that I found interesting was a sector count that my instructor used:

Sector 1: Outside of lead foot (luar by your definition I think)
Sector 2: Trapping lead foot
Sector 3: Inside lead foot (dalam)
Sector 4: Inside rear foot (dalam)
Sector 5: Trapping rear foot
Sector 6: Outside rear foot (luar)

I'd not come across this before but found it a useful structure to consider.

Yup. We use those sectors, too, in the FMA section of our curriculum.

[YODA]

Yup - we use the same sectors too.

Not supprising as there's quite a lot of common source between the thre of us.

[dredleviathan]

Well I find that very encouraging that there is quite a lot of common material as it means that when I finally get around to meeting and trainign with you I won't be totally lost! Although I'm guessing that the depth of understanding and experience that you guys have between you will probably leave me reeling.

Mike that was interesting what you said about the techniques becoming freer over time. Of course whether taught this way or not this happens anyway throught just regularly training a technique... I really like make these comparisons between arts only to find out that whilst the road was different the destination was the same.

I'm not sure I explained the bit about the differences in Silat and FMA particulalry well. I think that the implication that my instructor was trying to make was that in Silat if you didn't do the technique with the correct form it was almost offensive or sacriligious (his word)... is that the case? In contrast the FMA approach was more "job done". The reason that this came about actually was that my training partner was getting a bit narky with me when I was trying out different approaches to the sweep (slightly less expereinced and wanted to stick with the lesson). Like we're all keen on saying here - different horses for different courses.

So Yoda are you gonna finish our e-Silat course... sepok, dempok, and silaw?

:D

[dredleviathan]

Also thinking about it I was curious about other parts of Silat training such as the different forms/kata. The names have slipped my mind at the moment but isn't there a bunch of footwork patterns and then a bunch of hand patterns?

Anyone?

[YODA]

So Yoda are you gonna finish our e-Silat course... sepok, dempok, and silaw?

Hmmmm...... assuming you mean Sempok, Depok, & Siloh :D

Sempok & Depok are cross stepping - Sempok is a cross step back - Depok is a cross step forward. Sthese can be done high, all the way to a seated posture, or without the foot touching down (as in a cross stamp into the knee.)

If the sempok or depok is continued into a sitting posture - that is siloh.

Mike I'm sure will give better input - my level of Silat knowledge is basic at best. I wouldn't say I "do Silat" - I use some Silat techniques that I have been taught.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by dredleviathan
Mike that was interesting what you said about the techniques becoming freer over time. Of course whether taught this way or not this happens anyway throught just regularly training a technique... I really like make these comparisons between arts only to find out that whilst the road was different the destination was the same.

Yup. That's how it is with all MA that I've been exposed to. The flavor may be different, but the end result is pretty much the same.

I'm not sure I explained the bit about the differences in Silat and FMA particulalry well. I think that the implication that my instructor was trying to make was that in Silat if you didn't do the technique with the correct form it was almost offensive or sacriligious (his word)... is that the case?

I think this depends on the instructor. My instructors are more of the "if it works, it ain't wrong" philosophy. They may point out things that would improve it, make it work with less effort, but if it works, it works.

Mike

[pesilat]

Originally posted by YODA


Hmmmm...... assuming you mean Sempok, Depok, & Siloh :D

Sempok & Depok are cross stepping - Sempok is a cross step back - Depok is a cross step forward. Sthese can be done high, all the way to a seated posture, or without the foot touching down (as in a cross stamp into the knee.)

If the sempok or depok is continued into a sitting posture - that is siloh.

Mike I'm sure will give better input - my level of Silat knowledge is basic at best. I wouldn't say I "do Silat" - I use some Silat techniques that I have been taught.

Pretty good :)

Yes, those are the terms. I've seen them spelled and heard them pronounced a variety of ways (as is pretty common in the Souteast Asian arts due to the wide variety of dialects and influences the languages have had over the centuries).

My explanations are basically the same as Yoda's, but not quite (especially on the siloh).

Mine are:
Sempok - stepping behind your standing leg
Depok - stepping in front of your standing leg
Siloh - pivot/corkscrew (i.e.: your feet don't move, you simply corkscrew down into position or back up) - hope that makes sense

I've heard the resulting positions described as any of the three. So, if you show a Silat player a picture of a person at the final position (i.e.: sitting on the ground, or somewhere in between), the description of the position you get in return may be "sempok", "depok", or "siloh."

Mike

[pesilat]

Originally posted by dredleviathan
Also thinking about it I was curious about other parts of Silat training such as the different forms/kata. The names have slipped my mind at the moment but isn't there a bunch of footwork patterns and then a bunch of hand patterns?

Anyone?

Juru = hand form
Langkah = foot path

The actual jurus and langkahs, and the number of them, will vary from system to system.

I've heard of some systems that don't have jurus at all. Some have dozens (or even hundreds) of jurus. Some have just a couple of langkahs and others have more.

There's also "kembangan" (mentioned earlier in this thread). Kembangan literally means "to flower." Kembangan are longer forms. They may be comprised of the jurus/langkahs of the system strung together. Or they may be preset motions derived from the jurus/langkahs. They may be completely freeform. They may be done to music, or independent of music. All of this depends on the system.

There are also "sambuts" in some systems. Sambut literally translates to "answer." Generally, sambuts are applications to the jurus. However, they may be long strings of applications or they may be a single application. But, either way, they are intended to bridge the gap between running a form and applying what's learned in the form.

Basically, the form (whether juru, langkah, or kembangan) is "bunga" (which means "flower"). And the sambut is "buah" (fruit). Some systems just use the term "buah" instead of "sambut." And, I'm sure, other systems use other terms depending on their regional dialect or preferences.

Mike

[dredleviathan]

Mike/Dave,

Thank you both sincerely. You've cleared up a whole bunch of stuff that was litered with question marks in my notes and in pieces I had cribbed together in regard to Silat.

Like Dave I think that I probably won't be studying Silat but definitely have noticed that there are techniques littered through the stuff I have been taught. Who knows though maybe its something I'll go on to investigate further.

Hmmmm...... assuming you mean Sempok, Depok, & Siloh

Bad Yoda... opening a can of linguistic worms like that! :D

This is one of those threads that needs archiving for future reference!!!

[pesilat]

Originally posted by dredleviathan

Bad Yoda... opening a can of linguistic worms like that! :D


LOL. That can of worms is particularly easy to open when dealing with the Indonesian martial arts (and SEA arts in general).

Take the word "juru" for instance.

"juru" is the modern Bahasa Indonesia spelling.
"djoeroe" was the Dutch colonial spelling.

But I've seen variants like this on occasion "djuru"

Also, due to pronunciation differences, you end up with western spellings.

So, like the word "Serak." I've seen Sera, Serah, Serak. All three are correct and refer to the same art. But the "k" on the end isn't really a "hard" sound. It's more of a glottal stop. So it gets interpreted by various people as in the above examples. And all three of the above examples are pretty much pronounced the same.

And then there are other slippery slopes for westerners to navigate when dealing with the language. I was talking to one Silat player and I mentioned "Bukti Negara" but I didn't pronounce it well and what she heard was "Putih Negara." One means "witness of a continent." The other means "white continent." So now I'm always very conscious of pronouncing the "k" sound on the rare occasions that I say "Bukti Negara" around a Malay speaker.

It's a pretty convoluted (and sometimes treacherous) language for us non-native speakers to deal with.

Mike

[Cougar_v203]

djoeroe? pronunciation Plz :D

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Cougar_v203
djoeroe? pronunciation Plz :D

"djoeroe" = Dutch Colonial version of "juru."

The "oe" is pronounced like the "o" in "move" and the "dj" is pronounced like a "j".

Mike

[Cougar_v203]

thanks.

[paulsilat]

For those of you in the UK who are interested, there is a seminar that is hosted by the UK's top Martial Arts magazine 'Martial Arts Illustrated' called the MAI Super Seminar 2003.

This year it features a Silat instructor called Steve Benitez.

To find out more, click on the link below.

http://www.martialartsltd.co.uk/mai/seminar03.htm

This may be worth attending, as there are very few Silat demonstrations, seminars, etc... here in the UK.

[dredleviathan]

Thanks for the heads-up Paulsilat! I've heard very good things about Steve Benitez (in fact great things). Do you train with him?

I believe that he's opening a dedicated academy (for want of a better word) soon near Hendon Central in London. Hopefully he might hold a few open seminars there so that I can come along?

[paulsilat]

I have trained with him on several occassions in the past, years ago, and attented a few of his seminar, but don't train with him currently.

I heard read about his Academy in MAI, and will have a look after it opens.

Have you trained with him before? I saw from your profile you are based in London. Where do you train?

[Nubreed]

Kuntao Silat De Thouars

This will give you a general idea of the requirements in Uncle Bill's Arts

1. Jurus Satu (medium bassin)

Application : the entries (the most important learning)

follow up(striking)free flow
takedown: throw: puter kepala
reverse puter kepala
hip throw
thigh trow
Kengit
neck twist
arm drag
leg drag
sweep sapu & beset
joint lock wrist lock
arm bar
figure 4, etc.
Next from here you learn some application but you workout with a opponent who attacks you. And you use a free flow attitude (defense we play),

You begin the latihan tiga (sweep sapu/beset)

Jurus satu Low bassin
application to low attack to leg & takedown groundfighting

Jurus Satu(hight bassin)
more street self defense in upright position

you begin Jurus Satu in the monkey attitude...from hight to medium to low
bassin you express the monkey.... free flowing, unpredictable moves you can flow
from the first part of the jurus to the third part ....no pattern now just free
flowing...

You develop the jurus in the tiga pattern


Jurus Satu with knifes ( solo knife or two knifes)

you workout with an opponent you play!

Kuntao Waves hands drills

Monkey line: 2 opponent go back/forward using trapping, sweep legs exercise


2. Bai Hung (kuntao form & applications) platform footwork pattern exercises
3. Tang lang pai (kuntao)
4. Jurus Dua / sticking hands drills
5. Pai yune(kuntao)
6. Langhas Monjet
7. Ling Sing Toe ( kuntao)
8. Bagua green dragon (form) & a lot of applications


Each form is learned and you develop your technique from the form and most
important are the entries...you play with a opponent (workout)

Basic first Jurus Satu....after training in the basic form, some student go to Baih
Hung other to Jurus Dua, no real structure based on the individual physical make up!

Guru Steeve Malette is my Instructor in Kuntao Silat

[nat]

That's a pretty difficult question to answer categorically, there are over 160 official systems of Silat in Indonesia, not to mention those in Malaysia etc. Each with their own techniques. One of the things that could certainly be noted is the fact that most styles of silat utilise fast and elusive footwork, which is possibly the reason why Silat is so effective.

[Cougar_v203]

well i was looking for some of the basics and the intermediates.

[butterfly_knf]

It's pretty hard--

I hope it helps if I say that:
Well, don't worry- just learn whatever you can get-
Actually, MA develop based on your likeness towards the art.

It might be hard in finding the right places at first- but if you really like it then I'm sure you'll definitely find what you've been searching for.

It always like that.

Just remember to make peace with your mind.

[Cougar_v203]

thanks for all the help even though this topic is over a year old :P