Taijis originations... (continued from NZRics thread)...

[Shadowdh]

As NZRic said lets start another thread and not cloud his one with this topic...

and...... fight...lol... just kidding...

Firslty in response to Gerard...

First. You are still not providing any indications about the real origins of Taijiquan.

Second. The core subject is that one really knows. How do we know that it came from China. There is evidence that Shamanism (as an organised practice) was originated in Siberia and from there it spread to China, North America, Europe and Australia (Aboriginal people). And Qigong practices and Dao Yin forms are essentially Shamanic practices and precursors of Taiji and other Daoist alchemical practices. However there are also indications that Shamanism was also common in the Paleolithic Age. The fact is that in primitive societies around the world, people in need have sought to contact the spirit world to obtain assistance with the difficulties of daily life. When they have wanted to change the weather, foresee the future, control the movements of animals, and communicate with spirits and spirit animals, many have turned to shamans, who have the unique ability to enter a trance, travel into the spirit world, and accomplish these tasks. Daoism, amongst other oriental traditions, are simply a refined form of Shamanism.

If you take a look at the different names the Universal energy has in different parts of the world you'll understand much better: Qi in China, Prana in India, Pneuma in ancient Greece and Kupuri in Huichol civilisation (Mexico):

He wasnt actually offering any alternative in that statement... just the fact that if you believe thats how it happened thats fine and someone believing differently in no way belittles your belief... after all most of it is legend...

the whole thing about shamanism is ok but really people will believe in magic and the spirit world as they dont know or understand how something works and so will either call upon the spirits to help/guide them or make it look really cool to mystify something further...

Shamanism is a bit different from taiji and perhaps a bit far afield from what we are looking at here which is the origins of taiji... IMHO... I believe the historical texts which deal with taijis origins in Chen viliage... often the simplest answer is the right one... it started as a fighting style to defend the villiage created from bits and peices of alot of other systems and then refined by the Chen villagers over the years... there is no hocus pocus in taiji, and to mystify it further removes it from nearly all people... well thats my brief take... it would be good to get together to debate this perhaps over a coffee or a pint depending on tastes...

[daftyman]

... I believe the historical texts which deal with taijis origins in Chen viliage... often the simplest answer is the right one... it started as a fighting style to defend the villiage created from bits and peices of alot of other systems and then refined by the Chen villagers over the years... there is no hocus pocus in taiji, and to mystify it further removes it from nearly all people... well thats my brief take... it would be good to get together to debate this perhaps over a coffee or a pint depending on tastes...
or a pint of coffee!

I also feel that the origin of an art called 'taiji' is also in question.

It is documented that what Yang Lu Chan taught in Beijing was called soft or cotton boxing. If he came from the Chen village, did he change the name? Was it actually called taiji, or Chen family boxing?

On Peter Lim's tai chi page, he says in the history section that the name taiji was used only after a visiting Doist priest saw a demonstration by YLC and stated that it was taiji, i.e. it followed the priciples of yin and yang. Since taiji literally means 'supreme ultimate' what better name could you get?

(side note: I do find it odd when people go on about taiji being the supreme ultimate fist, when really what is meant is 'boxing that follows the supreme ultimate priciple of yin and yang'.)

[gerard]

the whole thing about shamanism is ok but really people will believe in magic and the spirit world as they dont know or understand how something works and so will either call upon the spirits to help/guide them or make it look really cool to mystify something further...


The problem is that the spiritual world is as real as this one. But to see it you must stop looking at the way you see this world. Long term intensive meditation will help you to see things beyond the defined lines of perception. There are also other ways which I don't follow

Shamanism is a bit different from taiji. Just a bit. If you look at Shamanic rites carried out by spiritual cultures, i.e. North American Indians, Aboriginal Australians, etc. you'll see that there are similarities. The Chinese just refined the diamond into silk


and perhaps a bit far afield from what we are looking at here which is the origins of taiji... IMHO... I believe the historical texts which deal with taijis origins in Chen viliage... often the simplest answer is the right one... it started as a fighting style to defend the villiage created from bits and peices of alot of other systems and then refined by the Chen villagers over the years... there is no hocus pocus in taiji, and to mystify it further removes it from nearly all people... well thats my brief take... it would be good to get together to debate this perhaps over a coffee or a pint depending on tastes...

I wouldn't put my heart in those texts. Martial arts are famous for appropriating and changing inherited styles for territorial and war figthing purposes. Initially Daoists Shamans devised Taiji as a purely spiritual exercise in order to speed up internal alchemy: qi-jing-shen. And you know the rest of the story: Chen-Zhao Bao-Yang-Sun-Sun-Wu. Again this is my perception after doing research on the subject. It seems logical but is not an absolute truth

:)

[Shadowdh]

The problem is that the spiritual world is as real as this one. But to see it you must stop looking at the way you see this world. Long term intensive meditation will help you to see things beyond the defined lines of perception. There are also other ways which I don't follow

I would like to disagree here.. what some call the spirit world is again a way of describing something we dont understand... alot of the taiji books I have read have all linked the findings of TCM with western medicine... all it shows is that the Chinese knew alot of things a long time before anyone else... its not mystical but real... Long term intensive meditation will help you hallucinate (sp) and then you can interpret those dreams into anything you like...

Shamanism is a bit different from taiji.

Just a bit. If you look at Shamanic rites carried out by spiritual cultures, i.e. North American Indians, Aboriginal Australians, etc. you'll see that there are similarities. The Chinese just refined the diamond into silk

Quite alot really... shamanism requires the belief in something outside to help you or give you advice/guidance/information... taiji is all about self and the internal aspects of you... not spirits... Also having lived in Australia I dont see much in the way of similarities between the Aboriginal tribal dances etc and taiji... with quite a bit of research I may also be able to timeline taiji compared to US indians/Aus Aboriginal dances etc


I wouldn't put my heart in those texts. Martial arts are famous for appropriating and changing inherited styles for territorial and war figthing purposes. Initially Daoists Shamans devised Taiji as a purely spiritual exercise in order to speed up internal alchemy: qi-jing-shen. And you know the rest of the story: Chen-Zhao Bao-Yang-Sun-Sun-Wu. Again this is my perception after doing research on the subject. It seems logical but is not an absolute truth

I would trust the historical records alot more than legend... also we are not talking about that long ago history wise... so its quite easy to see the development and origin of modern taiji... also your take on taiji seems to be flawed... taiji is not a purely spiritual exercise... I have read that the shaolin monks were taught something which later they developed into gongfu as a means of exercising their physical bodies to combat the atrophy caused by too much meditation... and taiji is a further refinement perhaps of this... and I make no claims it wasnt taken from a number of styles (please see the red stuff below..)... but it was developed for both marial and internal health....

it started as a fighting style to defend the villiage created from bits and peices of alot of other systems and then refined by the Chen villagers over the years... there is no hocus pocus in taiji, and to mystify it further removes it from nearly all people...

[noblenicky]

gerard,
You mentioned you study from a teacher who trained closely to XiaoWang's family. What does he think about taiji's origins? Since he is the current standard-bearer, he or his family would have some view into this?

vampyre_rat,
The name taiji itself is given by a scholar who saw YLC's demonstration, not YLC's own definition. Also, Peter Lim's texts have been doubted because of the referencing system he is using (he doesnt associate specific parts of his text to specific references, but simply placing a reference at the end of each document, making it difficult to determine which is his opinions and which is obtained from those texts).

[daftyman]

vampyre_rat,
The name taiji itself is given by a scholar who saw YLC's demonstration, not YLC's own definition. Also, Peter Lim's texts have been doubted because of the referencing system he is using (he doesnt associate specific parts of his text to specific references, but simply placing a reference at the end of each document, making it difficult to determine which is his opinions and which is obtained from those texts).
That's what I was trying to get across.

I'm quite happy to think that the art I study has grown and evolved over the decades and centuries, but we cannot be sure when we get beyond a certain point due to the reliability of the texts involved. I like the idea of the name coming from 'outside' the art.

I've recently read Barbara Davis' book "The Taijiquan Classics: An Annotated Translation." At the start of that book she looks at the origins of both the classics and the art called taiji. There is a lot of information there and its quite interesting. Cannot remember if it backs up Peter Lim's stuff. It also made we want to get a couple of Douglas Wile's books that also look at the history of the classics and the art, from the scholarly point of view.

Mount Wudang might have influences some people during the evolution of the art. Chang San Feng might have also influenced this evolution. It could have come from a wide range of sources and gradually, gradually developed into 'taijiquan'.

When you get right down to it, it doesn't really matter where it came from. What really matters is where its going to.

To try to advertise your art as the only true taiji, is to my mind wrong. It is an advertising gimmick. Better to just get on with it and allow the quality to shine through.

[Shadowdh]

Another quality post from VR...

Hi NobleNicky... a good man from another board I visit and very helpful and knowledgeable... cheers...

[noblenicky]

vampyre,
I agree. I would not sell any MA (whether I do them or not) as being the only thing. MA is an art, and different individuals will have a different way of expressing it.

[gerard]

Hey wouldn't have a bloody clue mate. Many Chinese today have lost complete touch with ancient Chinese history and practices. Chen Xiao Wang doesn't care. He just focuses his life in his calligraphies and spreading Chen style, not doing a Thesis on proto-Taiji, internal neidan and esoteric Daoist practices. He is neither an scholar nor a mystic master living in a cave.

About the origins of Taijiquan:

I still support the theory that evolved from shamanism to fight disease. It started with prehistoric DaoYin forms.