Grappling Techniques

[Cougar_v203]

Are There Any Good Grapple Techs. that would work for sparring and street fights? if there are plz list them.

[Mr Heel Hook]

I'll sum it up: Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
I'll sum it up: Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

<g> While I've got nothing but respect for GJJ and BJJ, they're not the only grappling/groundfighting arts.

Others that I'd recommend would be Erik Paulson's Combat Submission Wrestling - http://www.combatsubmissionwrestling.com

And Harimau Silat
http://www.btinternet.com/~harimau/
http://www.jakothmansilat.com

But, also, the guy asked about "grappling" which isn't necessarily "groundfighting." All of the above (to the best of my knowledge) focus primarily on groundfighting though may also have standup grappling aspects, too.

Mike

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Cougar_v203
Are There Any Good Grapple Techs. that would work for sparring and street fights? if there are plz list them.

I'd say armbars have a high percentage rate. Personally, I like finger locks but they take some training to be able to find them. I'll take toe locks, too, if the guy's barefoot.

But I'd say that armbars (of all varieties) are probably some of the most commonly found grappling techniques in any situation.

Mike

[Darzeka]

In short - grab hold of them, trip or throw them (try to slam them into the ground), then twist something so that it hurts then breaks.

One thing - arm bars are a good way to get punched (face and chets both hurt).

For stand up - learn your own body mechanics and look for ways to move your opponent around. Specific techniques - calf/knee hook, all body drops/wheel drops, leg lift (gracie type takedowns where you control you body weight better also performed from closer range). And most locknig ideas can be done from standing.
Also try to stay standing/kneeling after whatever you have done, keeping a grip on them. This will allow you much more control later.

On ground - learn to move around and move your opponent. Find things that hurt on your body (generally it will hurt them too). Specific techniques - shoulder key hole locks, wrist key hole locks, ankle locks, fingers and toes. Try to avoid chokes/strangles in a real fight (they are illegal - intent to kill) but they work well.
Don't forget to strike. Armbars aren't that great on the street - they won't tap and you'll need to snap his elbow.
Go for a nice tight control hold where you can calm them down or immobilsize them.

Also Gracie JuJitsu appears (I can only go from what I've seen in UFC) very defensive and lacking in imagination. The lack of cohesive striking can make the takedowns harder to pull off smoothly.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Darzeka
One thing - arm bars are a good way to get punched (face and chets both hurt).

Can you elaborate on this?

Don't forget to strike.

Absolutely. "When In Doubt, Impact." (a saying my primary instructor has that I coopted for my school's motto)

Armbars aren't that great on the street - they won't tap and you'll need to snap his elbow.

2 things about this statement. In the street, I'm not going for the submission to begin with, and won't expect or acknowledge a tap. I'm either going to hyperexted/break his elbow or slam him into the ground with the armbar. I find armbars about the easiest technique to get hold of at speed and they set up a plethora of follow up options.

Even if I'm looking to restrain them, an armbar is a good starting point. If they hit the ground, I can step over the arm, maintain the armbar with my legs (or turn it into another lock) while leaving my hands free to deal with other attacks or to further restrain the person.

If they don't hit the ground from the arm bar then I can use it to keep them off balance and I can easily flow with any resistance to other locks (the figure 4 is a common one).

Personally, I'll end up with finger locks 9 times out of 10 and I'll use them in conjunction with everything else.

Mike

[Cougar_v203]

well whats the easiest to execute? and what moves are easy enough to knock out or immobilize the opponent?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Cougar_v203
well whats the easiest to execute? and what moves are easy enough to knock out or immobilize the opponent?

I don't think there's a global answer for this. What's easiest to execute will depend on you, your physical/mental makeup, your background/training/experience, and who you're trying to execute it on.

Mike

[pgm316]

An easy one I like for when you get close to an opponent;

Move into the side of an opponent (you could be ducking under a punch) slide your leg behind theres (behind just one leg should do) Then instead of grabbing and going for the standard Judo style throw; use your forearm to smash into their face/neck/upper body, and this should be enough to put em down and in a slightly dazed state from the strike for an easy follow up! :)

[pgm316]

Originally posted by pesilat


Personally, I'll end up with finger locks 9 times out of 10 and I'll use them in conjunction with everything else.

Mike

The smaller the joint, the easier it is to hurt ;)

I've never used finger locks to great success, I know they can be effective, but probably messier to get the lock on. Have you got a good example :confused: :)

Mainly I stick to the elbow because its easy to manipulate into arm bar/figure 4. Then the wrist second. Only times I've gone for a finger lock is after a grab..........

[Darzeka]

Sorry Pesilat I just pictured armbar as a ground grappling move where you are vulnerable to attack as you apply it.

Silly me assuming everyone else flows into the mould.

I feel the basic armbar (brace their wrist with your hand or on your shoulder then apply pressure to elbow) is difficult to get but other variations can allow for more control and garuantee of succes. Can remember getting my brother airborne with a couple - just use movement and momemtum when going into the lock.
I like using an armbar-ish move to get them onto or going toward the floor and winding it up into a shoulder lock/chicken wing.

I also like using a twisted wrist pressure move to good effect. Its very easy to do and you can do it from anywhere.
Step 1. grab opponents wrist.
Step 2. twist it with force.
This can be done from a range of positions and will generally flip the person onto the floor and with use of good positioning and use of takedowns/trips can be quite harmful to the other person.

Finger locks are good to get someone's hand off you and will work on nearly everyone - be careful though they will usually have another hand and two feet to beat you with so lead into another technique.

Never assume what you are doing will work, hope it will and prepare to move to another lock.

Excuse my closed mind and help enlighten me by showing what I should have seen.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by pgm316
An easy one I like for when you get close to an opponent;

Move into the side of an opponent (you could be ducking under a punch) slide your leg behind theres (behind just one leg should do) Then instead of grabbing and going for the standard Judo style throw; use your forearm to smash into their face/neck/upper body, and this should be enough to put em down and in a slightly dazed state from the strike for an easy follow up! :)

Yup. And if you use your hips to drive the forearm, and follow through, you should end up driving them back and to the side, continue turning as you drag your leg backward through theirs and you've got what we call a "Biset Luar" in Silat. It's a very nice throw :)

Mike

[pesilat]

Originally posted by pgm316


The smaller the joint, the easier it is to hurt ;)

I've never used finger locks to great success, I know they can be effective, but probably messier to get the lock on. Have you got a good example :confused: :)

Well, one that I caught the other day in sparring: I punched with my right hand. The guy parried it toward my left, but his hand was stiff so his fingers were sticking straight up in the air over my right arm. I brought my left hand up, caught the fingers and lifted his hand up to clear the line for my right, I hit him in the ribs with my right forearm while torquing his fingers back toward him and drawing the bottom of his palm into my chest (the palm against the chest gives me a good base to really apply the finger lock).


Mainly I stick to the elbow because its easy to manipulate into arm bar/figure 4. Then the wrist second. Only times I've gone for a finger lock is after a grab..........

This is where finger locks are most commonly gotten. After contact is made, maybe you've got a lock or are going for a lock and, in their effort to resist/counter, they hand you their finger(s).

Another place they can pretty easily be gotten (with a little timing) is if a guy goes to shove you. He'll usually hold his hands in such a way that he's begging you to grab his fingers.

Mike

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Darzeka
Sorry Pesilat I just pictured armbar as a ground grappling move where you are vulnerable to attack as you apply it.

Silly me assuming everyone else flows into the mould.

Shame on you :D

To me, the term armbar implies a whole world of possible techniques, both standing and on the ground.

I feel the basic armbar (brace their wrist with your hand or on your shoulder then apply pressure to elbow) is difficult to get but other variations can allow for more control and garuantee of succes. Can remember getting my brother airborne with a couple - just use movement and momemtum when going into the lock.

Absolutely.

I like using an armbar-ish move to get them onto or going toward the floor and winding it up into a shoulder lock/chicken wing.

I like this one, too. Though I usually apply the shoulder lock/chicken wing with my leg (as I vaguely described in a previous post).


I also like using a twisted wrist pressure move to good effect. Its very easy to do and you can do it from anywhere.
Step 1. grab opponents wrist.
Step 2. twist it with force.
This can be done from a range of positions and will generally flip the person onto the floor and with use of good positioning and use of takedowns/trips can be quite harmful to the other person.

Yup. And with a little attention paid to the lines you use, this can be devastating (and requires a lot less force in the twist).

Finger locks are good to get someone's hand off you and will work on nearly everyone - be careful though they will usually have another hand and two feet to beat you with so lead into another technique.

Never assume what you are doing will work, hope it will and prepare to move to another lock.


Always the case :) But, for me, it's been ingrained into me that when I do a lock, I automatically do balance disruption as well. The balance disruption often inhibits their ability to kick or to generate much power with their other hand. But I always lead into another technique. I never rely on anything to work.

In a fight, there are no guarantees. It's the physical embodiment of pure chaos. Even something as simple as a right cross can fail. I may miss. Or, on occasion, the guy may grunt and shrug off my hardest shot. Always continue the flow until you're sure that they're no longer a threat.


Excuse my closed mind and help enlighten me by showing what I should have seen.

LOL. We all get sidetracked on occasion. I think there are plenty of people around here who can, and will, give you a courteous nudge when you stray :) I know I need one on occasion.

Mike

[pgm316]

Good examples Mike, thats given me a few things to think about and try out :)

[pesilat]

Originally posted by pgm316
Good examples Mike, thats given me a few things to think about and try out :)

Good. Glad I could help :)

Mike

[Solane]

Hi

I would add that you always need to hit the opponent first be it a punch, kick or slap. It helps distract the opponent from what you are trying to do with the grapple generally before they can react. Then it’s to late.

I say this as if you try to grapple first the opponent will stiffen up and try and pull free or hit you. Where as if they are reeling from a hit their arm/wrist/hand will be more relaxed allowing the technique to be applied easier and with out having to use brut strength against them.

I will try and give some proper Ninjutsu technique names when I get home.

Solane

[Cougar_v203]

thank you :)

[Darzeka]

Or you can incorporate the strike into the grapple move. Punch your desired locking target then grab. This is a very simple example of it that can work but after playing with it you can see better targets than others.

Also the person stiffening up will aid you in going from one lock to another or to a throw. As they tense something to prevent your lock they forget about everything else so use that as the distraction from your real target.

Applying some locks quickly will produce a strike in them.
Imagine a lunge strike coming at you. Butterfly catch the hand so that you will be on their backside. As you catch the hand slam your elbow into theirs. You will then have a lock, their momentum going past you and alot of control on them.

That lock is a very contrived situation but the theory is a good one and useful against knife wielding oppnents.

A good way to find locks is to just tangle up your arms in theirs and squeeze and twist. This also leads into those striking locks.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Solane
Hi

I would add that you always need to hit the opponent first be it a punch, kick or slap. It helps distract the opponent from what you are trying to do with the grapple generally before they can react. Then it’s to late.

Solane

This is a good point, but not entirely true.

I have in the past used grappling moves to avoid striking. If I was to hit first, why not just follow up with a few more hits to finish them off.

Sometimes putting a distractor (hit) in first will help, sometimes it will cause them to fight back harder. Although some drills we do include strike/lock/take down/strike etc. But I wouldn't say always strike....

What you can't do is reach for their arm, then start manipulating it and expect them not to resist.

You've got to be an opportunist with locks. They push you, put the arm into an arm lock. If they resist too much, don't struggle. They're probably just giving you a better opportunity for a wrist/finger lock.

If not, then smack em :woo:

[Freeform]

Armbar to me always impies that your straighting the arm, in general I would use the term armlock for a manipulation of the elbow/shoulder (although some of these I'd call shoulder locks ;) ).

People always forget the standing grappling game for some reason!?!

The first armlocks I learned were all from standing and I've used quite a few on the door to encourage people to leave. I believe they are a highly under rated tool of the MAist. People also forget that just cause your 'grappling/locking' that you can also hit. Every time you move your arm over a part of their body you should hit something, even if it doesn't really hurt!

If you've ever seen a real fight you'd be amazed at how many times the guys will clinch, this should really be emphasised in your training!

Col

[Solane]

Hi Cougar_v203

Here are 12 Ninjutsu Bujinkan techniques for grabs to your wrists.
These are taught facing each other when standing to start with.
These are taught at Hanchi Kyu (8th kyu)

Techniques 1, 2 & 3 are where the opponent grips your Left Wrist with his Right Hand, or your R Wrist with his L Hand.
Techniques 4, 5 & 6 are where the opponent grips your L Wrist with his L Hand, or your R Wrist with his R Hand.
Techniques 7 to 12 are where the opponent grips both of your Wrists at the same time.

Tehodoki 1

1. Uchi Mawashi
2. Soto Mawashi
3. Yahazu Gake
4. Hiji Kime
5. Soto Mawashi
6. Itami Jime
7. Soto Mawashi
8. Uchi Mawashi
9. Nakahiki
10. Sayu Mawashi Dori
11. Ogami Dori
12. Shuko Uchiate Dori

Solane

[Mr Heel Hook]

Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the best "Grappling" art around. There is nothing more to it.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the best "Grappling" art around. There is nothing more to it.

That's one opinion.

Mike

[Mr Heel Hook]

Perhaps, but is as close to fact as you can get. No other system has come close to dominating MMA as Gracie Jiu Jitsu...which happens to be a ground tech.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
Perhaps, but is as close to fact as you can get. No other system has come close to dominating MMA as Gracie Jiu Jitsu...which happens to be a ground tech.

Ahh ... but MMA is not a measure of arts. It's a measure of competitors.

Shoot has some very good groundfighting. Personally, I like Harimau Silat and, for me, Harimau is much "better" than BJJ. But that doesn't mean Harimau is "better" than BJJ or that it's the "best." Only that it's better for me. It suits my body, mindset, goals better.

BJJ may, in fact, be the "best" for you. Only you can make that call. But to say it's the "best" art is too much of a generalization.

It is a good groundfighting art. But so is Catch. So is Shoot. So is Harimau. And I'm sure there are at least a thousand other arts out there that specialize in groundfighting that I've never heard of that are good.

What's "best" or, really, even "good" can only be stated with finite parameters. It may be "best" in a particular environment. Or for a particular person. Or against a particular type of opponent. But for every "best" you can come up with, there is a "worst." It's true of everything.

Just trying to keep it all in perspective :)

Mike

[Cain]

........Shoot has some very good groundfighting........

Shoot?

Is it a style? Or maybe one of those secret arts which Andy mentioned ;)

Can you give a little info on this Mike? I'd appreciate that

|Cain|

[pesilat]

Originally posted by cain_charlie


Shoot?

Is it a style? Or maybe one of those secret arts which Andy mentioned ;)

Can you give a little info on this Mike? I'd appreciate that

|Cain|

These'll do a much better job of explaining than I could: http://www.2shoot.com/history.html
http://leicestershooters.tripod.com/shootfighting.html

Mike

[Cain]

Thanx, it seems pretty good, the muay thai/bjj combo I mean

|Cain|

[Mr Heel Hook]

MMA is not a measure of art? That seems odd to say. Of course it is; some styles clearly dominate others. If it was up to the competitors, then the larger guy would almost always win. After all, he is the more in shape and athletic competitor. It is clear that the techniques of BBJ are simply better. And until the win column Vs other styles takes a dramatic shift, it will remain that clear. So until it reaches that preverbal finite wall, BJJ will stand above other grappling arts a peg or two...times a 1000.:D

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
MMA is not a measure of art? That seems odd to say. Of course it is; some styles clearly dominate others. If it was up to the competitors, then the larger guy would almost always win. After all, he is the more in shape and athletic competitor. It is clear that the techniques of BBJ are simply better. And until the win column Vs other styles takes a dramatic shift, it will remain that clear. So until it reaches that preverbal finite wall, BJJ will stand above other grappling arts a peg or two...times a 1000.:D

Sure. Whatever you say.

When you put two men in a ring and have them fight, or people fight outside a ring, it's a measure of the men and their capabilities with their tools ... at that specific moment in time.

Also, the MMA competitions are only one environment. BJJ may well be the "best" art in that environment. That doesn't mean it's the "best" overall for everyone in every environent.

Mike

[Mr Heel Hook]

Tools should be thought of as their techniques of survival. AKA: Their style. As for one enviroment, that also is untrue. BJJ was born on the street and tested in a city/street enviroment for the past 50+ years between BJJ guys and Lutra livre guys in Brazil who had a very bloody rivalry.

[Cain]

Hey, it's been a long time since we had a 'my style dominates' thread :D

Now don't let me inturrept you guys, never mind me :)

Can't comment much since I ain't a grappler, but it does seem like the pretty big generalisation to a normal kid like me.......the 'best grappling art' thingy I mean :D

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

i hate ppl's ignorance they doesn't know how deadly a TKD kick to head is ;)
-TkdWarrior-

[Mr Heel Hook]

Wow, I didn't know TKD had the "instant death kick to the head attack." That's kinda cool, maybe I should start taking TKD:p

[TkdWarrior]

HA so much for the name of ignorance even ignorance felt ignored :D :p
-TkdWarrior-

[Mr Heel Hook]

I will be here for the next few hours trying to translate what you said.

...just so you know... :D

[TkdWarrior]

if u understand don't forget to tell me too ... i m still wondering myself :p
-TkdWarrior-

[Mr Heel Hook]

TKD warrior, someday I am coming to India and you and I are going to spar...to the death...? And then I will show you some grappling techniques. But wait, you will be dead...cause we are sparing to the death. :(

[Cain]

HA! I can whack all ur sorry a$$es with my legendary dim-mak strikes :D

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

yup Mr Heel Hook i'll be glad to be act as a good host n will not kill u ;)
if u don't know let me tell u i hav good background in Traditional Indian Wrestling not extensive as ur's in GJJ but i think TIW is good enuff to take on GJJ.
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

ya and our champion wrestler Hanuman can beat 10 Bruce Lees and Gracies packed together :D

Seriously speaking I'd go with Tkdwarrior on this one, the wrestlers here are quite compotent

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

<the wrestlers here are quite compotent>

LoL yea sure... compotent?? LMAO
-TkdWarrior-

[Mr Heel Hook]

Whats indian wrestling like?

[Jim]

Kinda like a combo of Thai and Chinese but they favour curry.

[TkdWarrior]

LoL... Jim is quite on the point...
it's very good mix of standup n ground wrestling and added lots of bone breaking chin-na/techniques plus massage therapy, bone setting...like those arts which provides u with techniques to harm n to heal... there is weapon too basically stick(6 feet, 11 feet and 14 feet) and sword too...

from my knowledge of Indian style is that it has been proved against single or multiple oppnt. just about 20+ yrs back wrestlers used to held competitions in which they were supposed to win against single/multiple oppnts...
after my grandpa no one from his family were intrested in wrestling except me so i couldn't get my family art :( but was always intrested in it that why i learnt wrestling.
-TkdWarrior-

[pgm316]

Style vs style again, always ends in tears :D

BJJ is a great art, developed for a purpose by a family of fighters. Also don't forget the Gracies would still be great fighters if it was karate/kung fu/judo they trained in.

I still don't think its the art that won the UFC's, but the way the Gracies trained. Almost like they trained from birth for these UFC style events.

I did train in Judo then a little jujitsu, even if it had been BJJ my grappling skills would still only be as good as the time I put in. Style is just one factor in becoming a good fighter. IMO ;)

[TkdWarrior]

yea that's why i m saying TKD rocks :D
-TkdWarrior-

[Cougar_v203]

*cough*right*cough* :) kidding
anyways Thanks for the info now i'm changing the subject to "where do you hit the person in the head to make them lose motor control?" good luck answering this :D

[TkdWarrior]

simple dude...
where it hurts the most :D

sorry for tearing up ur thread apart :)
-TkdWarrior-

[Andy Murray]

Well perhaps the specifics need to be on a TKD Vs BJJ thread, though this kind of thing has been hammered out so many times before on the web, I'm not sure I could be bothered moderating it.

BJJ guy enters TKD Tournament, he'd get his ass and head kicked.

TKD guy enters BJJ event, and he get's bounced on his head.

Neither of the above is real life.

Rules=Not real.

You could argue about which system is more realistic all day long, but at the end of the day;

A BJJ guy with no knowledge of striking systems, will get killed on the street. The big danger in going straight to the ground is that you may not be facing one opponent. Ipso facto, you need more than just BJJ. Enter MMA (not the 'be all and end all' either)

The TKD guy needs to be aware of what might happen, if his supporting leg gets taken away while he goes for that knockout roundhouse to the head. Not only be aware of the consequences, but be able to do something about them.

For the grapplers; try putting that lock on while I have my teeth on your nipple, a finger behind your eyeball, a finger up your ass and my mate is sticking a screwdriver in your kidneys.

For the TKD guys; TKD is one of the most visible arts, cos people can go and see it in every sports hall in the country and there will be 4 or 5 eleven year old BB's there. So if there is a more street effective side of it that most folks have missed, then surely you can understand why?

[TkdWarrior]

ok i keep my mouth shut :-X
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

Hehe well said Andy :D

I may also thing it depends on ur preffered range or the range at which the fight is happening, someone said this - Strike a grappler and grapple a striker :D

@Cougar

I had read somewhere that a good strike to the chin can easily knock down an opponent, it causes a vital part in the brain to bounce which leads to unconsciousness

It's called something like a 'Medula Oblongeta' .......I think

PS - excuse me for my bad spells :)

|Cain|

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Andy Murray

For the grapplers; try putting that lock on while I have my teeth on your nipple, a finger behind your eyeball, a finger up your ass and my mate is sticking a screwdriver in your kidneys.


My Jujitsu friend had that problem! :D

He's probably a better crappler, but he was a bit shocked when I bit his ear! And he struggled against fingers to pressure points beacuse it was not part of his game, its easy to get pretty nasty in grappling situations, fingers to eyes, throat, ears etc can hurt far more than any lock! ;)

[Cougar_v203]

lmao. ahhh good times ;)
so hit the dude square in the chin and he will fall?

[Cain]

Well the thing is not always, you just have to hit hard enuff, a good uppercut to the chin will do it, but then again it requires practise

|Cain|

[Mr Heel Hook]

If someone bit my nipple, the fight would not end with the broken arm they recieved from me. :D

[YODA]

For the grapplers; try putting that lock on while I have my teeth on your nipple

Promises, promises... :D

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
If someone bit my nipple, the fight would not end with the broken arm they recieved from me. :D

Is that because you'd apply some kind of 'Rectal Suplex' to the finger I had up your Ass Mr HH? :D



Oh and Yoda, keep your sleazy fantasies to yourself :D

[Cain]

For some reason Andy, I change my vote and would prefer to fight with Yoda instead :D

|Cain|

[Andy Murray]

I understand Cain, and I take no personal offence. I have no real Proctological background, so the implications are potentially very serious. :D

My only experience of proper grappling was Yoda laying his weight on top of me till I took an Asthma attack, then getting triangle choked by one of his students. On second innings, I managed to get a couple of neck-crank submissions on one of the other guys, but ground fighting is not my forte.

If I found myself in that situation for real, then I would do whatever I could, and that includes all of the above, plus nastier stuff too.

I recognise that it is something I need to work on, but I am focussing on other things right now.
I have a few ideas about 'not' going to the ground, and they are 'not' based on round kicks to the jaw!
They are also not things I would be prepared to do in anything other than a life threatening encounter.

(Dave, I was told that you have a notorious biter in your club!)

[YODA]

(Dave, I was told that you have a notorious biter in your club!)

Sadly that's true - never does it to me for some reason though.

[Andy Murray]

Dave (maybe you taste bad!), I have to say;

If I was working out with you guys and someone started biting me, I'd find it hard not to lose the plot and 'go haggis'. Not to say I'd come out on top, but I'd be throwing the rulebook out of the window.

[TkdWarrior]

u guys sometimes scares me :D
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

u guys sometimes scares me :D

LOL! That be rite reaction dude :D

Andy, don't be offended by that, I definitely don't look forward to getting bit by someone :eek: besides it happes that I have a nasty reputation for dealing with the sparring rule breakers :woo:

And don't worry, my vote is still on you 'cause big bear scares the livin' snot outta me :D

|Cain|

[Mr Heel Hook]

Someone goes for my butt they are in real trouble. I can crack coconuts between my cheeks. This technique takes years to master, so don't try this at home.

[Andy Murray]

You say this in theory Mr HH, but have you ever tested yourself against an experienced prober???

(On second thought's, maybe you don't want to answer that!)

[Mr Heel Hook]

I plead the 5th, my good friend!

[TkdWarrior]

LMAO...
just wondering if u could crak the screw driver too :D ;)
-TkdWarrior-

[Mr Heel Hook]

Crack, no? Bend it into the shape of a pentagon: yes. :D Im telling you, those "Buns of Steel" tapes work.

[Solane]

I am just wondering how the hell you guys managed to change a request for Grappling Techniques in the Ninjutsu forum, into a bloody discussion on which is better BJJ or TKD.

I think it was very improper of Mr HH to come into our forum and say my art is the best. When I am posting in your forums I try to keep my posts to constructive comments or advise. It would be very easy for me to say Ninjutsu is better than the rest and probably end up doing the same by blowing the original request out of the water and high jacking the discussion.

I did Judo for 8 years and have a good knowledge of it, and Ninjutsu has some very effective and decisive techniques that would not be allowed in a competition environment. Their names slip my mind but I have been on the receiving end of them enough times from my instructor to know they work.

So if you want a BJJ is better than TKD discussion, then take it into your own forum if you have nothing constructive to add.

Solane

[TkdWarrior]

I am just wondering how the hell you guys managed to change a request for Grappling Techniques in the Ninjutsu forum, into a bloody discussion on which is better BJJ or TKD.

don't wonder my freind it always happen... :D get used to it..
-TkdWarrior-

[Brad Ellin]

Ain't that the truth. Probably ask what your favorite color is and it would end up a "my style is better than yours" argument.

[Andy Murray]

No it would'nt, cos Black is the best ok!

For the millionth time!

Look at the writing at the top of the screen to see which forum you are on before you reply, and bloody well respect the idiocy of the comments posted there, regardless of how superior your opinion is!

If you want to contend any issues, then do it in 'General Discussion'

Don't make me say this again!

Gnash Gnash

[Solane]

Originally posted by Andy Murray

For the millionth time!

Look at the writing at the top of the screen to see which forum you are on before you reply, and bloody well respect the idiocy of the comments posted there, regardless of how superior your opinion is!

If you want to contend any issues, then do it in 'General Discussion'

Thanks Andy I think that was backing up what I said not sure though. :)
Is this a constructive comment? (Respect the idiocy of the comments posted there). Well if not I’m not arguing with a moderator or am I. Oh god I’m doing it now. :)

I think constructive comments from other styles of MA are fine, I have no problem with someone saying I think we have good techniques of that in our style have a look. But just walking in and saying my MA is the best so there. Sounds childish and is not helpful for the person asking the original question.

Solane

[Cain]

Yes, Master Andy, sorry for my bad behaviour, please give me another chance :)

Solane, you are probably rite there, sorry for hijacking the thread

Now just in case as to keep this post on topic, I come back to Cougar's question, the weakest possible part to hit on the face are probably the eyes, but you can't spar like that and most people are very touchy about striking the eyes, my advice is to use this ONLY as a last resort, or you could end up in serious legal trouble ;)

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

<No it would'nt, cos Black is the best ok!>
hey andy how could that happens? KF doesn't use that color :D
if u like black then u must be doing TKD :D
LMAO...
see how easy?

PS: sorry guys i m just having fun, but i think in the starting of thread Mike hav given some good answers. n solane pointed out some specifically moves in NJ, cougar was asking for street oriented grappling which was very much sure to get towards my style vs ur style. :)
-TkdWarrior-

[Solane]

Lol

Yes there have been some very helpful posts for him.
I was a bit ratty still this morning had to be in work for 6.30am on a sunday sucks. So was catching up on the posts and thought where the hell was the post heading. So posted my earlier comments. I still stand by what I said, just probably wouldnt have been so blunt if it wasnt so early when I posted. :)

later

Solane

[Mr Heel Hook]

Ummm, you might want to get your facts right before getting your undies in a bunch. There was no point that I said Gracie Jiu Jitsu was the best MA over all. The threads question is "Are there any good grappling techniques for the streets." So I answered the question. If it started to sound different it was because people said that was more of a ring style and whatnot then a "street" style. So In turn I explain that Gracie Jiu Jitsu was born for the concept of street fighting. Again, answering the question of the thread. So, as is, if the question is "what are the best...blah blah blah" my answer is Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. So if people want to argue with me over that, I am going to argue back. However i didn't start anything. So calm yourself and excuse me for "littering" your thread or what ever trite little thing you might have to say.

Oh, and to stay on post subject: Yes, a good solid punch to the chin will typicaly drop someone. But most people fight with their chin down keeping it a bit shielded. Another good way to ring someones bell is an open palm slap right to the ear...almost as though you were kinda cupping the ear. It's a bit of a surprise technique (as in they wern't expecting it) but works very well.

[Cougar_v203]

hell yea you go mr.heel lol.
thanks for the help.

[Solane]

LOL
I should get my facts straight. Fair enough I know very little about Gracie Jiu-Jitsu so cannot comment on it and that’s why I didn’t. But your first post you said.

1(I'll sum it up: Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.)
Your Second you said
2.(Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the best "Grappling" art around. There is nothing more to it.)

I thought it was a bit presumptuous. But the others got you discussing why, then others took it off at a tangent that I thought was more relevant to another forum, and not really relevant to Cougar_v203 original post. So I may not have got you 100% word perfect the first time but I wasn’t far off as shown above.

Happy training

Solane

[Mr Heel Hook]

Yes, best as in the "most proven" thus why I would say best in that sense...the GRAPPLING sense. Again, Cougers post was "Are there any good grappling techniques for the streets." again, I was just answering it. As for it turning into a Style Vs style thread, it wasn't clear there was some joking around going there? I guess not if you had to "step" in and say your piece about message board etiquette. We have had that little (keep in mind joking ) rivalry since the "Whats wrong with high kicks?" thread.

Try again,
Thanks for playing. :D

[pgm316]

If its getting into a style v style debate, can I just say;

BJJ vs Stavit, I very short fight I think!?!

[Solane]

Hmm
I don’t remember suggesting that the messages were not funny; I have noticed the friendly rivalry between you all and find them quite amusing.
But whether they were funny or not they were wandering off the topic and into the hills. So I said what I did.

I never said you weren’t entitled to think the way you do. As to whether you are right or not I didn’t say you weren’t, as some of your later explanations were more helpful in explaining your point of view. I think, you saying it was the best grappling and leaving it at that wasn’t very helpful to the general conversation. But that is what I think.

I think we need to agree to disagree on certain points of view. Otherwise we could continue this on, and I would be doing what I said the others were doing in taking the topic off into the hills. I am sorry if my earlier comments offended you.

I hope we can lock horns and trade techniques in further posts.

Back on topic: You need to be careful with the ear slap as it can burst their eardrum very nasty for them but good for you. :)

Another is to punch the nose straight on or swipe from the side with your knuckles this will most often bring tears to their eyes but the added side effect can be lots of blood. While this is often not a bad injury the amount of blood can be very off putting for the opponent and his or her fellow attackers. If it is enough to make some hesitate or back off all the better for you. I don’t believe this will make them lose motor control but it has a good effect.

Train safe

Solane

[pgm316]

But there not really grappling techniques solane ;)

Without getting into style vs style I'd stull like to hear about some of the BJJ stuff :)

[Mr Heel Hook]

Well, anyhoot it doesnt matter much to me anymore. The argument over that is over. But if you do have questions about GJJ, just ask away.

[YODA]

Hi mr HH

I have a question on your BJJ - who do you train with & what level of experience are you at with it?

[Mr Heel Hook]

Ryron is the head of my association and is actualy coming out to us on April 5th and 6th. (cheap plug to come train with us!) The head of our association (as in the state itself) has been training for 6 years. I myself a year and a half perhaps but have been in the "scene" for about 3 years.

[Solane]

Originally posted by Cougar_v203
Thanks for the info now i'm changing the subject to "where do you hit the person in the head to make them lose motor control?" good luck answering this :D

Correct PGM316 But he changed the tread on page 3 or 4 to this.
But you already new that. :)

Solane

[pgm316]

mmmmmm that makes good sense..........

Thread changed to "What is your favourite sandwich?" :D

[YODA]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
Ryron is the head of my association and is actualy coming out to us on April 5th and 6th. (cheap plug to come train with us!) The head of our association (as in the state itself) has been training for 6 years. I myself a year and a half perhaps but have been in the "scene" for about 3 years.

Cool - what %age of your training time do you devote to Gi / No Gi? And what do you feel are the major differences in your game in these areas? Does the emphasis of your game change much for no Gi?

[Mr Heel Hook]

Originally posted by YODA


Cool - what %age of your training time do you devote to Gi / No Gi? And what do you feel are the major differences in your game in these areas? Does the emphasis of your game change much for no Gi?


Interesting questions. I saw from your site you do a lot of no GI training. As for me, I would say maybe 30% at most no GI training. In truth I don't see too too much difference in GI and no GI. Of course there are things apparent such as less to grab and more slippery, but not much else. I think training with the GI will make you better over all. How? Well, when you have a GI your overall balance has to be better. Which is the major difference, in my opinion. When you have a GI on you will be more susceptible to sweeps. So the more you train in that one particular environment, it forces your awareness to become heightened. When I do train without the GI the few differences are: I don't (or can't really) go for collar chokes, and there is far less to grab on so you wrap up and hook limbs more. But like said, I don't think there is that much difference in my overall game. What about you? How long have you been training and under who? What are your thoughts on the GI question?

[YODA]

You're right - the vast majority of my grappling is done no Gi - we really should use the Gi more.

I find that without a Gi I have to be more aware of taking away spaces in control positions - as I don't have the Gi to grip he can move more freely. No Gi for me seems to lead to a faster game with less "stalemate" positions.

I've ben training martial arts seriously for the last 20 years - and training functional BJJ / Shooto based grappling for the last 10 of those. Currently I'm an Associate Instructor under Marc McFann - one of the premiere grapplers in the "JKDC Family" and a 4th Grade Black Belt in Doce Pares Eskrima.

[Mr Heel Hook]

Yeah, that is true about space. But either way you have to be more aware about it. But I do agree with you, you probly have to be more...for lack of a better word for it...aware.

Have you trained with a Gracie?

[YODA]

I trained with Roger Gracie last November. Very cool guy and VERY good!

Some of my students have trained with Royce & Renzo and had a great time.

I don't hang too much importance on a name. The best exponent of BJJ I've trained with is Mauricio Gomez - not a Gracie but at 7th Degree Black Belt sure knows his stuff! He was one of the few people who got their Black Belt from the legendary Rolls Gracie.

[Mr Heel Hook]

Oh very true about the name thing. It just so happens the name comes with so much. I myself would like to train with Mario Sperry and Marco Ruas. Just to see what their mind set is on things. Last weekend I had a seminar with Royce. I believe he is heading to Europe, maybe you should check his site to see if he is in the area. Perhaps if you contact him he will stop by. He is a very easy going fellow. We just mentioned to him we would like to have him stop by. He responed "If you get 20 people to come, I'll stop by in July." I dunno, maybe something you might try?

[YODA]

I've had Marco Ruas at my club twice for seminars - nice guy & excellent martial athlete.

Royce was just here - but i was in the USA training my stickfighting! I'll catch him next time around.

[Mr Heel Hook]

Wow, great. How was marco's seminar? Like, what were they like? He is a machine.

[YODA]

Narco was great - obviously very good at what he does and applies his stuff very errr..... positively LOL!

A real Gentleman though - no sign of ego or "hard man" - just a nice guy with lots of skill!

There are some photos on our website if you look through the galleries.

[Mr Heel Hook]

They don't seem to be coming up. I click the picture and then get an error. Perhaps internet build up. Thats good to hear about Marco. Rumors I have heard is he has a big ego. I am glad to hear other wise.

[YODA]

Yikes you're right - some of the pix seem to be missing. I'll get on the case & fix that. This one works though...

(Better not let Melanie see this one)

http://www.cea.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ceaweb/images/marco.jpg

[Mr Heel Hook]

Hey, thanks! :D Yeash, like I said: "He's a machine."

[Solane]

When I did Judo we always used the GI in class but I practiced at home with my brother no GI. The same with my Ninjutsu Instructor in class GI at his home no GI or on rare occasions no GI in lessons for a bit of reality training.

I think learning a technique needs to be done with a GI especially grappling/throws as on occasions the technique goes well with the clothes but the person is left standing.
Handy to know how to sow at this point. :)
You can control the person better with a GI on as already said.

But training no GI shows you where you need to place your hands and how much grip you can expect.

One of the students forgot his GI top and was training in a tee shirt. His partner was complaining that he could not do the Technique we had shown him because he had no collar to grab and if he did he would rip the tee shirt. So I demonstrated the same technique by gripping the back of his partner’s neck. He was amazed by what I thought was a simple and obvious solution and the lesson continued.

Solane

[Cougar_v203]

I want his pecs :D

[Freeform]

Then get to the gym, ya little runt! ;)

On, you go! :D

Gi/no Gi, have to practice with both, as in a scrap the Gi skills translate well into using an opps jacket against him!

Maurico Gomes is the best! Was at a seminar of his a few years ago and his stuff was awesome! Shame most of its illegal in Judo training though :(

Col

[Cain]

Hmm new to grappling but how does having a gi and having no gi makes a difference?

Thanx,

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

do one thing do grappling while clothes on...
then later put off ur clothes get urself all oily n then try ur grappling stuff, then tell us here wat happened??
Ok Cain. ;)
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

then later put off ur clothes

Umm.....I will pass that :D

But I see wat u r getting at, it will be hell of a lot more tough to get a grip

BTW I know Indian wrestlers oil themselves but wat bout American? I never seen one like that......

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

americans...??
well with sweat it's not easy to grip...
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

Oh, I see, grappling sure is'nt my thing, guess I will stick to hitting people and trapping rather than rolling on the floor with some big burly, hairy and smelly guy :D

Thanx,

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

No Grappling is fun n challenging when u don't hav good grip...

frankly if u start spending more time on mat u'll start enjoying it too...

-TkdWarrior-

[YODA]

Yeah - plus, you get the wear Lycra in No Gi grappling :D

[Cain]

LOL! no I think I will stick with 'yes gi' grappling :D

|Cain|

[Cougar_v203]

hmmm..i guess i'll grapple with a girl ;)

[Cain]

Cougar, I really like u :D

|Cain|

[Mr Heel Hook]

We have a few girls in our class, I bet they could whoop ya.

[Cougar_v203]

I'm sure but have they ever faced a ninja before? :D

[Solane]

It's funny the difference when training with women. Both in judo and Ninjutsu.
I have found the women don't hold back when fighting you.

When I have fought them though I have sometimes found myself switching a technique at the last minute to avoid an inappropriate hold. This is generally with the newer members, as the senior females realize you aren’t out to grope them.

I remember one of the senior women in our Judo club telling off one of the 16 year old lads because he would not grip her GI properly near her chest due to embarrassment. So he could not do the technique properly and kept losing in the sparing sessions. She threatened to bounce him round the room for an hour if he didn’t get a good grip. He stuck at it and became very good at Judo.

Solane

[Cougar_v203]

hmmm i wanted to that guy..lol sike umm i never noticed that but ok.
I treat everyone equally on or off the mat but for the girls i tend to not put so much strength into the punch, kick, or whatever.
For the Guys I don't hold back I will do anything to win.

[TkdWarrior]

<For the Guys I don't hold back I will do anything to win>

stupid, baised and (^#*&^(#$ :p
-TkdWarrior-

[Cougar_v203]

:D
i'm not biased.:|

[Mr Heel Hook]

Here is the true site of the Ninja :D http://www.realultimatepower.net/

[Solane]

Oh dear god no.
Yes the site is funny in that it’s so wrong about everything. It’s good for a lunchtime laugh; it’s just scary that some kids may actually believe some of this stuff. Lets hope the poor delusional little reprobates find their collective way to such sites as MAP. For a sound dose of true MA’s discussions.

Mummy there’s a scary man on the internet that seems to believe the stuff in the links that he posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

Only kidding mate the site is good for a lunch time laugh. :)

Solane

[Cougar_v203]

yea I discovered that site after 4 hours of typing .com after another hour i finally did it right lol

[Mr Heel Hook]

Yup, just a good site for a good laugh. Christ though, imagine if people actualy thought that was all real....

[YODA]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
Yup, just a good site for a good laugh. Christ though, imagine if people actualy thought that was all real....


You mean?

Ack!!


It's not REAL?

Nooooo.....................

[Cougar_v203]

muahahahaha!! we have destroyed your hopes :D

[YODA]

(((sob)))

[Cougar_v203]

:P

[Mr Heel Hook]

Sorry, my friend. We all wish those kind of Ninja's were real, but sadly they are not..............................................

[YODA]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....................

[pgm316]

Of course theres Ninja's!

http://www.msu.edu/~couilla3/ninja/ninjaparty.jpg

As the author says;

Ninjas are sooooooooooo sweet that I want to crap my pants. I can't believe it sometimes, but I feel it inside my heart. These guys are totally awesome and that's a fact. Ninjas are fast, smooth, cool, strong, powerful, and sweet. I can't wait to start yoga next year. I love ninjas with all of my body (including my pee pee).


Wise words!

[Cain]

Yes there are ninjas and then there are Dragonballz too :p

I am a real ninja cross training in the dragonballz :D



|Cain|

[Cougar_v203]

where did dragonball z come in?

Anyways back to topic!
Whats the throw where you grab your opponents arm and flip them over your shoulder?

[YODA]

Originally posted by Cougar_v203
where did dragonball z come in?

Anyways back to topic!
Whats the throw where you grab your opponents arm and flip them over your shoulder?


I can think of several that fit that description - from several arts. I'll take a guess and go for the Judo throw called Ippon seoinage...


http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.gif

[Cougar_v203]

thats the one i was thinking of!
Yea I did that to my friend in school the other day :D
she later on kicked my ass :)

[SilentNightfall]

You know, that picture of the ninja a few posts up has to be totally fake. I mean, if ninja are never seen then how did someone get a picture of them? It's obviously the result of some Adobe Photoshop genius who is trying to make ninja look bad. Ok... I'm sorry, but even I have to crack a ninja joke every once in a while and so I figured tonight, while reading all the past threads that I haven't gone through yet, I would make one. I mean, come on. Ninja wannabes... Who wouldn't want to have a laugh at their expense? :D

[Cougar_v203]

good point.