Free McTaiChi classes a good thing?

[nzric]

There's a free tai chi session here every week in the middle of the city - I checked it out the other week as I thought I could find some people to push hands with, but it turned out to be a group of "urban professionals" with no obvious martial arts knowledge following along to some placid oriental music.

No offence to anyone from the school that runs these sessions (the instructor seemed to have a fair idea of what he was doing), but I was really disappointed. The same class has just appeared in a regional tv show tonight, where the presenter basically implied that all you have to do is listen to bad string music and wave your arms around slowly in this class, and you'll be doing tai chi. :bang:

My question is do you think that this kind of publicity spreads exactly the kind of stereotype of tai chi that kills people's perception of it as a serious art, or do you think I'm being an IMA snob and that tai chi needs any/all the publicity it can get??

[jokerlaughsatu]

possibly a little off topic , but when i visited my grandmother in the Alzheimer's wing of our nursing home i happened upon their free tai chi class. It was funny because these people are not mobile at all, and in fact were sitting through the whole thing , and waving thier arms back and forth. I honestly never thought my grandmother would take up ma. This Mc tai chi was a good thing. i'll get pictures next time :)

[Ikken Hisatsu]

i think this form of tai chi is great. it is very effective in helping to keep elderly people in a better state of health. as for the public perception, I know what you mean. more and more people are starting to associate the term kickboxing with taebo and not thai boxing. gotta learn not to care.

[imawimp]

I kinda think your being an IMA snob. As long as the people taking the class feel that their needs are met, why should you worry?

I can think of several good things about these type of classes:
1. Todays Urban professional waving his hands in the air to bad chinese music might be tomorrows student at a more focused school.
2. People can get a lot of things from tai-chi. If all they want is the stress reduction or even the chance to live out a Kwy Chang fantasy once a week - more power to them.
3. No one would argue that Tai Chi enjoys the reputation of being somewhat less then a martial art, but has anyone seen whats going on in Karate and TKD lately? Birthday parties? After school programs? Kids Karate? Id much rather see a Tai Chi instructor adding real benefit to peoples life by introducing the more meditative, healthful aspect of tai chi to people as opposed to simply being the deadliest baby sitter at the strip mall.

[Sandus]

The key word is "free." Had they paid for such useless activity then It'd be okay to be slighty miffed/bothered by what goes on, but as long as people aren't being taken advantage of then if the people who show up are comfortable with what they're doing, who are we to say they shouldn't? If the person giving the instruction isn't a taiji hack then all somebody needs to do is talk to him/her and sign up for a real class to get the true taiji experience. I actually think this kind of thing is (somewhat) good because it spreads the awareness of taiji (even if it's not actually taiji).

As long as people aren't being misled, let them wave their arms.

[gerard]

Rick, is that your name?

Don't worry about those people. Each to its own. I always liked the history of Taiji of an underground stuff well kept in Chinese Taoist monasteries only passed from adept to adept. You must think that it is neijia stuff, only taught to those who are spiritually ready for it. The Supreme Ultimate Fist 太極拳 vs. Tai-Chi for urban dwellers.

It's good for people to practice it in the Western way because it gives them to experience something from a millenarian culture and give them a bit of peace of mind

[Adc]

Each to its own.
Yep true words.Different strokes for different folks,if they are not hurting you others or themselves then it may not be your place to convince them otherwise.
I always liked the history of Taiji of an underground stuff well kept in Chinese Taoist monasteries only passed from adept to adept.
You may well like this version of its history,but in reality it never existed.

[daftyman]

It's all about how 'deep' into it they want to go.

If they do the class just to relax and de-stress then great. They might really need it.
If they are expecting more? Well, maybe the guy runs classes elsewhere and just does this for the general well being of his fellow man, or something like that.

Nothing wrong with doing taiji for purely health. A lot of people stick at that, but for those people who want to go deeper, they will find that as well.

Is it totally for free? He might be being paid by a company to 'just happen to be there'.

As for teaching taiji to people who are impared in some way, learning difficulties, old age, mobility problems etc?
I taught a class of adults with learning difficulties. It was just some of the movements, it was the 'moving yoga' taiji, but they got a lot from it, and I got a lot from teaching them.

Any tool that can be used to help improve peoples lives is a good thing.

For me, I like the martial thing, and happily pay for all the classes I do. I know that my teacher would not give out all the information he does to us in a free class. But he would still teach in such a way that may lead some people to ask for more and to go deeper into the art.

[gerard]

Adc, this is what I know:

Taijiquan theory and practice is based on a long history that spans thousands of years. Its progress is attributed to many legendary figures including:

1. Long Fist of Hsa Suan Ming (618-905, Tang Dynasty)
2. Hsien-Tien (The stage before the universe is created pugilism)
3. Chang Chuan (Long Fist) of Li Tao Tze (618-905, Tang Dynasty)
4. Nine Little Heavens form of Hen Kon Yu (907-921, Liang Dynasty)
5. Hu Tien Fa ("Post-Heavenly Method") of Yi Li Peng
6. Wudang Taiji of Chang San Feng (1247 - 14??)
7. Wang Tsung Yueh (1736-1795)
8. Jiang Fa (1716-1795)
9. Chen Chou-Tung and Southern Taijiquan (1700 - 1800)

1. Theory one: Most people recognize Chang San Feng as the founder of Taijiquan. The Chang San Feng legend can be viewed as having three phases: phase I (prior to 1669) merely claims that Chang was a Daoist immortal; phase II (after 1669) claims that he founded the "internal" school of Chinese boxing; and phase III (post 1900) claims that Taijiquan originated with Chang. The Chang San Feng legend evolved during the Ming period (1368-1644), based on the close association of early Ming rulers with Daoism and Daoist priests, whose prophecies had supported the founder of the dynasty. Little is known about Chang except that he is described as an eccentric, itinerant hermit with magical powers, who died once, but came back to life, and whose life, based on varying accounts, spanned a period of over 300 years. According to legend, Chang San Feng created a new set of exercises now known as Taijiquan in the Wudang Mountains from observing the fighting between a crane and a snake. He noticed the soft movement of the snake was very effective in warding off the attack of the hard strike. Thereby the softness of Taiji. In Wudangzhang while on the steppes of San Feng Shan, the "Three Peaks Mountain", Chang practiced his Five Pleasures: Sword Dancing in Moonlight, which accumulates energy; playing Taijiquan on Dark Nights, which invigorates qi; Climbing Mountains on Blustery Nights, which elongates the breath; Studying Classics on Rainy Nights, which cleanses the mind; and Meditating at Midnight, which makes one's nature brilliant.


2. Theory two: Chang San Feng has a dream in which the immortal warrior taught him the Taijiquan. After one night of dream learning, he achieved mastery and used the Taiji to defeat the bands of bandits that surrounded his monastery.

3. Theory three: Chen village originated Taiji from their ancestor who was a small Ming general. On retirement he created Taiji based on another great Ming General's booklet on the Art of War. This claim gives rise to the idea that the oldest version of Taiji is from the Chen village.

4. Theory four: Dragon Gate Taijiquan: One of the oldest Daoist forms that has become an almost extinct style. Also called Wudang mountain Taijiquan. It has much jumping and stamping as well as many low crouch positions. Its rarity is due to the difficulty of finding a teacher, and also competent students to carry the lineage forward. The Dragon style is the proto Taiji, the "Great Grand Mother" of all Taiji forms. Its emphasis is on the opening of the Eight Extraordinary Channels of the body.

The lineage of this style says the following:

The Daoist Chang San Feng learned from Dragon Gate master, Fo-Leung (Fire Dragon). Clearly, then Taiji in this lineage derives from the Dragon Gate school. Whereas, the Chen Village elder developed the Taijiquan from an old Ming General's military training manual.

Within the Dragon Gate immortal cultivation, Taijiquan is relegated as the initial foundation building for meditation. Thus, a Taiji player who wants to master beyond the Taiji form should also cultivate a meditation practice in order to come to see the fundamental essence.

Taiji Dragon style correlates to the Three Realms in Daoist philosophy: Earth, Humans and Heaven. Within the Dragon Gate cultivation, one gathers and circulates three distinct energy of the Three Realm during the Taiji form. Thus, a master will move very differently in the Earth chapter than the Heaven chapter. From the I Ching, Earth energy is square and expansive while the Heaven energy is fluid, circular and never ceasing. By manifesting the unique signature qualities of the Three Realms, the Taiji master then can advance to a further stage of harmonizing the energy of the Three Realm. In the Taiji form, the Jade Maiden Weaving the Shuttle points to this possibility that humans can balance the energy between Heaven and Earth. This is Daoist Alchemy magic.

My input is that serious students of Dao should undertake the teaching and history of the Dragon Gate Sect of the Complete Reality Taoist School. The Dragon Gate of the Complete Reality School focuses on energetic healing and mastery. Hopefully, such wonderful flame of ancient wisdom will be transmitted through the next generation. Otherwise, Taijiquan will fall into the mind numbing trap of either being a Martial Art or a New Age fitness program, because Taiji's approach should be that of Daoist philosophy.

I believe that the true origins are uncertain, but something is clear in its roots: It was developed by Daoists in the Chinese mountains in their quest of spiritual immortality. Therefore I am more inclined for theory four. Maybe I am a sentimental :Angel:


I hope this post has clarified a lot my vague previous post.

[Adc]

Adc, this is what I know:
This is what you have been told or you have read,which brings it to a matter of :this is what you believe to be true.Considerably different from knowing or knowledge in metaphysical matters or historical matters with such poor records available.
I am happy to acknowledge that sometimes for some people belief is enough.
I believe that the true origins are uncertain
Which brings us back to : each to his own.

[daftyman]

when you get right down to it, what does it matter where it originated?

What matters is what's happening today.

I personally feel that what we practice today evolved out of a number of different arts that are now labelled taiji.

When Yang Lu Chan first went to Beijing he taught cotton fist. Only later was the name changed.

[gerard]

Adc please as a fellow Daoist: get rid of your ego. You are not providing anything that will people to understand or to know, you seem to be like a cloud on top of the mountain.

Who cares about the origins? The important thing is that we know it.

[Adc]

Adc please as a fellow Daoist: get rid of your ego.
This is you labeling me.Perhaps you should question why you feel there is a issue of ego.
You are not providing anything that will people to understand or to know
I am providing an alternative in the form of questioning presented information rather then reliance on opinions presented as truths.This is not attacking you nor should it be considered a negative thing(as I feel your response indicates)
Who cares about the origins?.
This is one of the points of my posts which you seemed to have missed,you believing what you posted and another believing something else will not alter what it may mean to you or them.

The important thing is that we know it.
The "each to his own" may indicate that we truly do not know "it"

[Sandus]

I find it trivial to argue about ambiguous, unrecorded history. The fact is, gerard may be right, but it doesn't really matter. What is known is that Yang Lu Chan brought the art from the Chen village. Before that, any number of things could have happened. Believe what you want to believe, but don't waste time trying to reinforce a point that lacks concrete evidence beyond that of legends of immortal warriors.

[Adc]

I find it trivial to argue about ambiguous, unrecorded history.Believe what you want to believe, but don't waste time trying to reinforce a point that lacks concrete evidence beyond that of legends of immortal warriors.
Nicely put.
My question is do you think that this kind of publicity spreads exactly the kind of stereotype of tai chi that kills people's perception of it as a serious art, or do you think I'm being an IMA snob and that tai chi needs any/all the publicity it can get?
I take it you feel the current sterotype(that of a soft non combative mediative practise) of TJQ is a negative one or at least not serious enough.
There is alot of IMA out there,with many differing methods, let alone the different goals of practitioners who knows maybe what we practise is a pale shadow of what many know as TJQ.I have seen old men in china learning forms from a book and others being taught one to one standing next to each other in a park,which one is better,righter,more genuiune? :confused: I guess this is why I am still more concerned with the practitioner then the style,what you get out of it is what you are willing to put in.Style wise I'm sure someone can always say my this or my that is better blah blah, sounds like they have a desire to be recognized as the best. :rolleyes: (if you don't understand this is sarcasm as being good or the best at TJQ is missing the whole point in many teachings)As someone once said to me,find peace in your practise or don't practise.

[daftyman]

...I guess this is why I am still more concerned with the practitioner then the style,what you get out of it is what you are willing to put in.Style wise I sure someone can always say my this or my that is better blah blah, sounds like they have a desire to be recognized as the best :rolleyes: (if you don't understand this is sarcasm as being good or the best at TJQ is missing the whole point in many teachings)As someone once said to me,find peace in your practise or don't practise.
Excellent.

[Shadowdh]

Excellent.


What he said...

Also I am more inclined to follow the historical path to the origins of taiji... myths and legends are great but not to be taken as fact.. there may be elements of truth to them but unless solid historical evidence is found they always remain great bedtime stories...

Also I am of the same opinion that its your practice you should be concerned with and if people like the purely health aspect then they can wave their arms all they like... I go to a class that is pretty much all about the health and "new age" side of taiji... but my Shifu surely knows his stuff and also passes on some martial aspect (when the others arent looking lol)... I also attend another class where the Shifu teaches the martial aspect as the base of taiji... I like both as they both help my form... although I do find some of the interpretations by the "arm waving" crowd a bit jarring I know that my form isnt suffering because of it... (plus the Shifu really is very good...)

[gerard]

This is one of the points of my posts which you seemed to have missed,you believing what you posted and another believing something else will not alter what it may mean to you or them

First. You are still not providing any indications about the real origins of Taijiquan.

Second. The core subject is that one really knows. How do we know that it came from China. There is evidence that Shamanism (as an organised practice) was originated in Siberia and from there it spread to China, North America, Europe and Australia (Aboriginal people). And Qigong practices and Dao Yin forms are essentially Shamanic practices and precursors of Taiji and other Daoist alchemical practices. However there are also indications that Shamanism was also common in the Paleolithic Age. The fact is that in primitive societies around the world, people in need have sought to contact the spirit world to obtain assistance with the difficulties of daily life. When they have wanted to change the weather, foresee the future, control the movements of animals, and communicate with spirits and spirit animals, many have turned to shamans, who have the unique ability to enter a trance, travel into the spirit world, and accomplish these tasks. Daoism, amongst other oriental traditions, are simply a refined form of Shamanism.

If you take a look at the different names the Universal energy has in different parts of the world you'll understand much better: Qi in China, Prana in India, Pneuma in ancient Greece and Kupuri in Huichol civilisation (Mexico):

http://www.entheology.org/edoto/anmviewer.asp?a=131&z=4

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/beekeeper/plants.html (sorry for this popped-up link).


Let me finish with some nice words composed by the Huichol culture that indeed are spiritually moving:

"The Earth is sick and dying. The lands of the Huichol Indians,
hidden high in the remote Sierra Madre mountains of northwestern Mexico,
are dying. The forests are shrinking, water is becoming scarce,
and the animals are disappearing.

Mankind must be a steward of the Earth;
Caretakers for all that dwells upon it;
To be of one heart with all things.

Human beings must learn to share the tears of every living thing,
To feel in his heart the pain of the wounded animal, each crushed blade of grass;

Mother Earth is our flesh; the rocks, our bones;
The rivers are the blood of our veins."

The Huichol Wise man, the Grand Shaman, knows why.


:)

[nzric]

Please stick to the topic. If you want to talk about the history, how about beginning another thread?

Seems like a lot of people are for the free tai chi. But don't you think in order for the art to survive/reach the west in any longterm way, those who practice it should be true to the real meaning of the arts?

I can see the benefits of introducing tai chi to people in a "dummies guide" sort of way, but it's like saying anybody who puts a cloth over their head and says "hey, I'm a ninja" is doing justice to the art of ninjutsu.

[Shadowdh]

Please stick to the topic. If you want to talk about the history, how about beginning another thread?

Seems like a lot of people are for the free tai chi. But don't you think in order for the art to survive/reach the west in any longterm way, those who practice it should be true to the real meaning of the arts?

I can see the benefits of introducing tai chi to people in a "dummies guide" sort of way, but it's like saying anybody who puts a cloth over their head and says "hey, I'm a ninja" is doing justice to the art of ninjutsu.

I guess I prefer the traditional way... ie learning the whole thing... theory and application both martial and health... but if they want to do it the way they are and they are happy then thats up to them... personally I would look for a class that actually teaches what I want to know... I go to two purely for this reason... my first Shifu is very good and knows both sides of taiji but the students are all of the "hippy" bent and wish to learn it for the new age reason... like I said... he is very good though and when I ask him questions or when he corrects my position he shows me the martial application also... (which is what I am after more)... my other Shifu teaches taiji with the maritial applications having the same or more weight than the health... plus they are friends and teach very similarly... but yes I think that it doesnt do the art any good and in fact will dilute it to the point of yoga in some cases... (or taebo as someone mentioned...)..

[Adc]

First. You are still not providing any indications about the real origins of Taijiquan.
Yep, thats because I can truly say that I do not know the real origins of TJQ nor would it alter my practice if I did know a truth behind the beliefs of origin stories.All I could do is hypothesize.
As said
I find it trivial to argue about ambiguous, unrecorded history
Each to its own.

[Shadowdh]

Hi there all... as NZRic as requested lets keep this thread on topic... I have started a new one if you wish to post something on the origins etc... starting from Gerards post above NZRics...

[Adc]

Please stick to the topic. If you want to talk about the history, how about beginning another thread?
A little flexibility for the flow of conversation,but I will try to stay on topic.
But don't you think in order for the art to survive/reach the west in any longterm way, those who practice it should be true to the real meaning of the arts?.
I guess the key here is what is the real meaning/basis of these arts? Can not arts or anything evolve or deteriorate(depending on persceptive) over time?
I believe that you are approaching this from the traditional is superior side,in which case the debate is already well and truly decided.I don't feel what we practice is particularly traditional to begin with so I have a problem with condemning other styles or formats.Thus separation occurs with schools(or in the past families) teaching this and others teaching that,all claiming some level above the last or next.Is any of this really a positive image for TJQ?

[daftyman]

...I can see the benefits of introducing tai chi to people in a "dummies guide" sort of way, but it's like saying anybody who puts a cloth over their head and says "hey, I'm a ninja" is doing justice to the art of ninjutsu.
I don't think so. I realise that some classes may tout themselves as being'complete' while only delving ontothe shallows of the art.

A lot of people come to taiji for non-martial reasons, as I did, but find out more along the way. At my school a new beginners class can have about 40 people in it. By the time the class finishes, there is normally only a handful. Even those who 'stay the course' are not always wanting to go into the martial side.

Let's not forget that taiji is an incredibly valuable method for health and meditation. The glory is that it can be martial as well. Three arts for the price of one!

For every 50 people starting taiji, you may only get one person who wants to go 'martial', but if the class was not so open at the start, they may never have made the discovery at all.

If the free class is being sold as a meditative de-stressing health exercise, then fine. If the guy running the class let's people know about the wader range of the art, better. If the guy is able to teach the wider aspects of the art, or at least knows someone who can, better still.

The only way for an art to survive is to have people practicing the art. The more the merrier. Eventually a section of those people will go 'deep' into the art and keep it alive, the others will paddle in the shallows telling people how lovely it is. More people start, more people go 'deep'.

[Syd]

I remember going and seeing a keeper of the style ( Wu Style ) in Sydney some time ago. This gentleman was very nice and had an impeccable lineage that was direct through his father back to the head of the branch in mainland China. He wasn't exactly giving the classes away and he had it price structured.

I was very excited by the prospect of learning from this guy given all I had read and come to expect. I turned up at 6am one morning where he trained, a local community centre, and found a large group of misfits and elderly people butchering empty hand forms and weapons forms. Sword tips were literally banging on the ground and people were hopping. No continuous flow or movement and just about every rule of Taijiquan broken.

This was all before the Sifu who I had arranged to meet had arrived. I decided to wait and see what the master of the style looked like and tried to keep an open mind. When he began the class it was really not very impressive. He broke the very same rules that his students broke and there was no attempt to correct anybodies form, let alone his own!

Worse still was the addition of the tape recorder which went on to play Chinese classical music and the game for me was by then well and truly up. There were people there that had been with this class for 5 years! These same people were banging swords on the wooden floors and hopping around during weighted turns!

At the end of the day I think it all depends on what you are looking for. I think free classes or classes like the one I have described above are perhaps beneficial for people who want nothing more than a bit of movement with some manner of meditation There are people who want more than that and then others who really want the martial and internal aspects brought to union through exceptional expression. I was looking for the latter and did not find it.

I think Taiji in the modern age is like eating at a restaurant. There are good ones and bad ones. Some people eat at bad ones and enjoy it while others will eat nowhere else but the established venues who offer a full menu. Personally I like the little places tucked away in the alley that only a very few people are ever likely to find. The places that don't advertise but whose clientele know that every meal leaves them full and wanting more; this chef is a master who feeds his patrons the very best with little fanfare.

[Shadowdh]

Hey Syd... very good post and I love the analogy re eating at the bottom... something close to my heart eating...lol... anyway I used to live in Springwood in the Blue Mountains... small world...

[Syd]

Hey Shad! :)

Thanks for your comments. I live between Katoomba and Blackheath and we had snow in our yard this year. Most people never realize we get that 2 hours west of Sydney. Springwood eh? Are you an Aussie or were you a Pom living here for a while? Bad time to talk restaurants too... damn I'm hungry. :D

[Shadowdh]

I am actually a kiwi living in the UK married to an aussie who went to Aus to get married... well its a long story...lol...