Tai Chi is not easy

[goliath]

Shadow mentioned this when s/he started Chen style. Hopefully this topic has not been over done. Delete if it has :) but just cause your moving slow does not mean nothing is happening. All your needed muscles are working to keep your arms up. Normally your arm is never extend for a lengthy period of time.

Holding your arms out to the side for 20 deep breaths make look easy. Buy breath 12 or soon you start to be breath a lil faster. after you do that you bring your arms over to the front and work a different muscle group. Still going after that last set you muscles get worked quick.

I am 310 pounds, going from ground up from a twisted horse it not easy going real slow. It's a different kind of power. It's more torque rather then engine speed, I could not find a better analogy.

any refutes? supports? snide remarks?

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

No snide remarks from me! I study Tai Chi Chuan, and I know that it isn't easy. And we really sweat in our classes!

[goliath]

ever find you sweat more on certain stance then you do other stances. I dunno if it cause of an energy thing or some level of difficulty. But yeah Tai Chi can clean you out pretty good.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

ever find you sweat more on certain stance then you do other stances.
It's hard to tell, because we start class with a Tai Chi warmup (a really, really good warmup, by the way), and most of us are sweating by the end of that (it warms you up, head to toe). Then we do conditioning drills, then Fa Jing exercises, and then, the form (whatever form we're working on), so we stay heated up. I usually go through a full bottle of water in that class, and sometimes, more than one.

[d33pthought]

Wow! Never thought it could be so strenuous...all those people in video clips make it look too easy! :) Not to mention all the old people doing it. I'd like to try that, I think: It'd be a good test of patience.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

I'd like to try that, I think: It'd be a good test of patience.
That, it will! I've seen students come to class to try it out, stay for two or three classes, and then quit, because they got too antsy -- they wanted to move faster! Too bad they don't stay, because it is very rewarding.

It becomes more strenuous once you get into push hands, especially if you use it for sparring.

[d33pthought]

I hear you on that, KT :) When I did kung-fu they used to make us sit in a horse stance for about a minute. That was plenty rough on the will and body.

[goliath]

I wonder if the public association for tai chi is just to focused on this idea of soft and healthy. That softy and healthy means easy. Perhaps those people that leave are thrown off by their own ideas of what Tai Chi is.

Tai Chi looks aesthetically different from the other popular styles out there. But is it just as hard or as easy as all the others.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

The trick is to find a good class. One that teaches Tai Chi Chuan as a martial art. Sometimes you'll see two-month "adult education" Tai Chi classes -- these can be no more than an introduction. They usually focus just on the health side of Tai Chi, and that, just barely. That could contribute to the idea some people have that Tai Chi is just a bunch of old people exercising in the park. It takes years to learn Tai Chi properly. The "quicky" classes will sometimes prompt people to seek out the real thing, so in that respect, they are a good thing.

[cybermonk]

Although I like tai chi very much I dont think it is physically strenous. Comming from an "external" background the tai chi workouts dont really put too much stress on my arms or legs, specially since tai chi is more refined than my mother system. To me is harder on the mind that it is on the body, from an external perspective, when doing forms you visualize the move and you fire it and then the next and then the next and it could all happen very fast at times; with tai chi it has happened some times that I am doing a certain posture and then I visuallize the move that comes next but it takes me like 10 seconds to get to that move and by the time I do I have already forgotten what I was supposed to do. Then again I am new to tai chi :)

[goliath]

that makes me laugh that I am not the only one that has happened too. Sometimes I will be in the middle of form and start my my wondering meanwhile I am doing the rest of the form correctly then I realize I am wandering, I come back in and start screwing up...

I agree with you to an extent monk that there is not a lot of stress but at the same time it's different. It more... awe hell I dunno... I have two different ideas going on in my head and I think i'll stop before I get off topic..... if there was a topic.... HA

[Shadowdh]

Yeah man thats what I found... very strenuous in a slow motion sort of way...lol... (its a he btw)... also I weigh in at about 250lbs.. and I thought my legs were fairly strong but when I started taiji (esp the squat stance) I found that there was alot I had to learn about what I thought was strong...lol... I find that the warm ups get me warm and breathing harder but the chansijing exercises really make me sweat and the forms keep me sweating... my wife was really surprised by how much I sweat...

[goliath]

ha! yeah I sweat more in Tai Chi then I did in all the other martial arts I took.

[d33pthought]

Good classes, then. In that vein, then, what style is the "real" tai chi? The martial art one, as opposed to the "old people in the park" method?

[KungFuGirl]

ha! yeah I sweat more in Tai Chi then I did in all the other martial arts I took.


I didn't sweat when I took Tai Chi but my muscles sure quivered!!!

So I agree that it is harder than people think because moving slowly is actually harder than moving fast sometimes. Like just holding your arms out makes them really tired.

However, Tai Chi wasn't very good for someone like me with ADHD (attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder) as I have mucho problems sitting and standing still. So I didn't stay in it for very long at all!!!

[cybermonk]

Good classes, then. In that vein, then, what style is the "real" tai chi? The martial art one, as opposed to the "old people in the park" method?

I believe you are most likely to find a martial school of Chen style than many others.

[goliath]

not sure what you mean by real tai chi? is there a fake one?
i am not trying to be a smart ass i am asking a legit question :)

[d33pthought]

I mean the martial tai chi, if there is such a thing. The style of it in that, if you wanted to, could speed it up and actually fight with it. I've seen the intro tai chi classes that are taught at YMCAs and the like, and it's basically yoga in motion; not bad for what it is, but not what I'm interested in at the moment.

[goliath]

You know what I think I will start a new thread on this and hope that it has been been over done. My experience on the martial aspect of tai chi.

[cybermonk]

I dont know much about tai chi since im kind of new at it but I know that Yang style is one that is widely used just for health and the instructors throw away the martial aplications. You are better off looking for Chen or other styles for fighting.

[d33pthought]

cool thanks.

[wutan]

not sure what you mean by real tai chi? is there a fake one?
i am not trying to be a smart ass i am asking a legit question :)

Good question!
There may very well be Fake Tai Chi Chuan.

We have to bear in mind that Tai Chi Chuan is a martial art-If we are practising anything else then it is not Tai Chi.
The difference between Chi Gong and Tai Chi is that CG is a method(s) of utilising and expanding our energy (Chi).
Tai Chi Chuan is a Chinese martial art -That's the fundemental difference.

Depending on what style and who your teacher is one may very well only be practising the Yin health giving aspect-One will then only have less than half the art.
If one only get's the Yang Martial hard aspect then again there will be a large chunk of the art missing.

It is not only the Chen style that has a balance of both.
If you are in the UK then check out Nigel Sutton's club-Zhong Ding,Dan Docherty's club-Practical Tai Chi Chuan, Ian Cameron-Five Winds Tai Chi,Carl Burgess-Shadowand.co.uk and Neil Rosiak-fightingtaichi.co.uk.
None of the above are Chen.

All of the above classes/clubs will give you a good workout and yes,your legs will be sore.

Regards,

Mark.

[cybermonk]

I was just saying you are more likely to find martial schools of Chen than Yang or other styles. I wasnt saying the other styles dont have the balance, just stating that Chen is very widely being taught as a martial art rather than health, which seems to be the opposite for Yang style.

Edit-Doesnt Dan Docherty do Chen style?

[wutan]

I was just saying you are more likely to find martial schools of Chen than Yang or other styles. I wasnt saying the other styles dont have the balance, just stating that Chen is very widely being taught as a martial art rather than health, which seems to be the opposite for Yang style.

Edit-Doesnt Dan Docherty do Chen style?


I agree that Chen style will most probably have a good balance of the soft and hard aspects but there are not too many Chen practitioners in the UK compared to other styles.
I'm aware of Michael Tse, Leming yue and a few others.

Dan Docherty practises and teaches Wudang style from the Cheng Tin Hung lineage and it may be why you though of Chen style.
It is the style that I practise and it is derived fro the Wu family style.
www.taichichuan.co.uk

Mark.

[cybermonk]

Dan Docherty practises and teaches Wudang style from the Cheng Tin Hung lineage and it may be why you though of Chen style.
It is the style that I practise and it is derived fro the Wu family style.
www.taichichuan.co.uk

Mark.

Oh, my mistake. Thanks for the info, an offtopic question--have you met Mr. Docherty? From his articles it seems he is quite an interesting character.

[wutan]

Oh, my mistake. Thanks for the info, an offtopic question--have you met Mr. Docherty? From his articles it seems he is quite an interesting character.


Yes, I have met Dan and you are correct he is an interesting character!
I'm attending a two day seminar held by Dan next week.

I last spoke to him at an event called Tai Chi Caledonia where he asked me to help him demonstrate an application of a straight kick defence.
I applied my straight kick and found myself flying through the air onto a terracota tennis court floor!
It is a great way to learn-Flying through the air!

I'm glad that I have practised break falls with a fellow Tai Chi colleague who is second Dan in Aikido.

Have a look at Dan's website www.taichichuan.co.uk and read some of his articles and newsletters to give you a flavour of his character.

Regards,

Mark.

[daftyman]

I mean the martial tai chi, if there is such a thing. The style of it in that, if you wanted to, could speed it up and actually fight with it. I've seen the intro tai chi classes that are taught at YMCAs and the like, and it's basically yoga in motion; not bad for what it is, but not what I'm interested in at the moment.
If you are in too much of a hurry to speed up taiji for fighting, you won't be doing taiji. It would be more similar to shaolin. A lot of the postures are incredibly similar.

If you are in too much of a hurry, you will not relax. You will not be fluid and sensitive enough.

A lot of taiji martial applications suffer the problem of instilling the 'set response' to an attack. Unfortunately an assailant will not know how to attack you in such a way as to allow the application to work.

It teaches us to be relaxed in the face of an attack so that we can flow and redirect that attack to maximum effect. Unfortunately the ability to read the attack so that we can deal with it in a relaxed and flowing manner takes time. The amount of time this takes depends on your natural ability, the teaching that you get and your willingness to persevere. Some say that the amount of time required ends up being in the region of 10 years. Others disagree, they say it takes longer!

This means that you have to do the 'moving yoga' and all the rest so that you can develop the sensitivety and relaxation necessary. You cannot get one without the other.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

I dont know much about tai chi since im kind of new at it but I know that Yang style is one that is widely used just for health and the instructors throw away the martial aplications. You are better off looking for Chen or other styles for fighting.
This depends on the teacher. It's true that a six-week course at the YMCA will most likely focus only on the health benefits, but any good Yang-style class (in a real school of Yang style Tai Chi Chuan) should give at least equal time to the martial side of it.


(I agree with vampyre rat's post, by the way; he makes a lot of good points).

[cybermonk]

This depends on the teacher. It's true that a six-week course at the YMCA will most likely focus only on the health benefits, but any good Yang-style class (in a real school of Yang style Tai Chi Chuan) should give at least equal time to the martial side of it.


(I agree with vampyre rat's post, by the way; he makes a lot of good points).

Yes, that is correct, I do Yang style and we are taught the "full system" with martial applications, push hands, etc. But I have looked around other schools and 90% of the time I hear Yang style I find myself in an olds people health class, which I have found is not the case with other styles.

I agree with vampyre_rat's post aswell, im probably a good 6 years away of actually being able to free spar using tai chi but im not in a hurry, may aswell enjoy the ride :)

[Stingrae789]

ok i am a fine one to speak since i cant get to tai chi classes but i was watching mind, body and kick ass moves on BBC 3 and you wont believe me but the old people in the park actually learn to use their techniques. so way i see it is that most yang styles , chen style and wu dang are martially orientated, while i belive lee style isnt as much. Speeding up tai chi is ok if you know it well, but it takes about 10 years to be that good :D or so i have heard

[daftyman]

Thanks for the compliments guys. I am humbled. :)

....but im not in a hurry, may aswell enjoy the ride :)
The ride's the best bit!


As regards to the old guys in the classes....

Well our class has a fair few oldsters. They've been going for a few years now, and clearly they are getting a lot from it. For those of us who want to take it further we do push hands, da lu, weapons etc.

The simple truth is that most classes are going to get 'older' people in them. Simply because it is so damn good for you. We should in no way stop them either. I am sure that we would encourage our parents and/or gransparents to take it up as the only real scientific studies look at the reduction of falls due to increased sense of balance, reduced blood pressure, improved leg strength and hip movement.

The older folk at my school tend to only go to the beginners classes, and not to the advanced classes, and I think its great that they keep going to class, they would be welcome to the advanced class, but they are just as happy to stick with the beginners and keep going back through the form. Hell, I do that. It's a great place to break down the form to really examine each of the postures anew. Some of my best breakthroughs have happened in a beginners class.

Tai Chi is different things to different people. We may want to explore the full range of possibilities, including the martial, but others just want to chill out, or just do it for the health benefits (which are great less we forget). A lot of schools have to cater for everybody, to allow the 'health' and 'chill' folk to practice as well as the 'martial' folk.