A general question relating to Judo.

[Dave Humm]

Hi all,

I'm a long term student of Aikido, and was wondering if you'd care to answer a question.

I live very close to a Judo School that has in the past produced Olympic medal winners, I don't doubt they are good at what they do however, what they do doesn't resemble a 'martial' discipline. What I mean by this, is that what they are training for is to score points as aposed to training for a martial situation.

Now I fully relalise that sport has become a large part of many martial systems however, i'd like to respectfully canvas Judoka's opinion directly on the differences between Sport Judo, and Judo that is perhaps more martial in principle.

Many thanks in advance of your comments and please excuse my ignorance of your discipline, I am not here to start a flame war, merely genuinely want to know more about what I've seen.

Dave

[Aegis]

From my personal experience I've come to the conclusion that if you want to train in Judo for self defence, the best bet is to look in to Jujutsu instead. There are some clubs that teach self defence Judo, but for the most part clubs are only interested in the competetive side of things, which on its own is not enough in my opinion. It can't hurt to have experience in competetive Judo, and in some situations it will be really effective (like an attacker grabbing hold of you), but there is generally too much missing for it to be a complete self defence art.

[Linguo]

I think the martial applications are still present in sport Judo. A lot of Muay Thai fighters train for the ring, but that doesn't mean their art lacks martial applications. Whether you grab a person or a person grabs you, a throw is a throw. The sport side might lead to some potentially dangerous habits (like turtling), but, because the full contact nature of the art provides an opportunity for you to develop your skills against resisting opponents. I think if you have the opportunity to work with some Olympic medal winners, you should definitely take it.

[Dave Humm]

Thanks fellas for your initial replys... Let me expand a little on the theme of my thread.

If I wear a Judo-Gi this gives my opponent somthing to grab hold of, sufficiant to perfom the techniques required of sport Judo. Now this is where my limited knowledge of the sport kicks in. What techniques (Nage Waza) does the Judoka have for effectively throwing an opponent who isn't wearing a Judo- Gi ? IE What techniques have contact with the person rather than through their clothing ?

Thanks

Dave

[Linguo]

Thanks fellas for your initial replys... Let me expand a little on the theme of my thread.

If I wear a Judo-Gi this gives my opponent somthing to grab hold of, sufficiant to perfom the techniques required of sport Judo. Now this is where my limited knowledge of the sport kicks in. What techniques (Nage Waza) does the Judoka have for effectively throwing an opponent who isn't wearing a Judo- Gi ? IE What techniques have contact with the person rather than through their clothing ?

Thanks

Dave

Naked chokes immediately come to mind. From personal experience (and many others will say the same) you can make quite a few throws work without a gi. I like doing koshi garuma to my younger, yet taller, brother. Lightly of course ;)

[Dave Humm]

Naked chokes immediately come to mind. From personal experience (and many others will say the same) you can make quite a few throws work without a gi. I like doing koshi garuma to my younger, yet taller, brother. Lightly of course ;)Do sport Judoka train in Shime waza ? I've never seen it performed in competition.

[Spookey]

Dear Mr. Humm,

Traditional Judo as originally created by Jigoro Kano Sensei and taught by the Kodokan consists of specified waza...

1. Nage-waza (throwing techniques)

2. Katame-waza (grappling techniques)
I. Osae-komi-waza (hold down techniques)
II. Shime-waza (strangulation techniques)
III. Kansetsu-waza (joint locking or destruction techniques)

3. Atemi-waza (striking techniques)

These are the specific fundamental classifications of techniques as created by Jigoro Kano!

Unfortunately, these techniques are often not trained in there entire spectrum. These cut backs are do to shave cirricullum based on competitive needs.

The Korean Art known as Yudo (which I practice) is known to be the original teachings of Jigoro Kano (pure Judo). Judo of today is Kano sensei's modified, "safer", version used in sport competitions today. To give creadance to this comment; Korea has one governing body for "pure Judo" (Yudo) and yet a second KJF (Korean Judo Federation) which oversees all competitive, sporting venues, including the Olympic trials!

Finally, I wish to thank you for the ways in which you addressed your initial questions. Hats off!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[Freeform]

Hi Dave (fancy seeing you here ;))

Kano originally intended randori to be kept to about 1/4 of a Judokas training, as a training tool, not an end to itself. Although he did want to see Judo become a sport (after all, he was the first Japanese on the IOC). Unfortunately most Judo schools see randori as the end point of Judo, not a training aid, I think this isn't how Kano would have ideally see Judo develop.

As to no-gi throws, there are many. If a Judoka can grab the wrist instead of a sleave, I reckon they'd only loose about 1/3 of their offensive throws, though it is true that the jacket offers more oppertunities for kuzushi. There are a large variety of leg throws and sweeps that many foget about.

Col

[Linguo]

Do sport Judoka train in Shime waza ? I've never seen it performed in competition.

My school trains primarily for sport, and choke techniques appear quite frequently. I've had a few teachers mention being choked out in competitions, so I assume other sport-oriented schools train in Shime waza.

[Dave Humm]

Hi Dave (fancy seeing you here ;)) As to no-gi throws, there are many. If a Judoka can grab the wrist instead of a sleave, I reckon they'd only loose about 1/3 of their offensive throws, though it is true that the jacket offers more oppertunities for kuzushi. There are a large variety of leg throws and sweeps that many forget about.Col Well this is of course my point. I'm not having a POP at Judo, merely wanting to know what the "Sport Judoka" has to offer technique wise in a 'fight' where they cannot rely upon a Do-gi top to use as their primary means of contact with their opponent.

Bearing in mind of course, that "sport" is based upon a strict set of rules for scoring points. So, I pose another question... If a "Sport Judoka" trains pretty much exclusively within the relms of the 'rules' of competition, where or *IF* are the martial aspects taught?

Kind regards to all as always.

Dave

[Dave Humm]

My school trains primarily for sport, and choke techniques appear quite frequently. I've had a few teachers mention being choked out in competitions, so I assume other sport-oriented schools train in Shime waza.
Hi Linguo.. You mention chokes, at what point are these choke holds applied? Presumably on the ground?

I ask this from the perspective of opportunity. If I were to allow myself to be choked, then yes I can see the validity of the technique in Sport Judo having a practical application, however; if the sport judoka hasn't the technique available to him/her to drop a person in a "no rules" environment (IE not sports based) what good is the choke in the first place?

My point is this... Do Sports based Judo dojo still consider their 'art' "martial" or is it now no more martial than any other form of say gymnastics?

Kind regards

Dave

[Linguo]

Hi Linguo.. You mention chokes, at what point are these choke holds applied? Presumably on the ground?

I ask this from the perspective of opportunity. If I were to allow myself to be choked, then yes I can see the validity of the technique in Sport Judo having a practical application, however; if the sport judoka hasn't the technique available to him/her to drop a person in a "no rules" environment (IE not sports based) what good is the choke in the first place?

My point is this... Do Sports based Judo dojo still consider their 'art' "martial" or is it now no more martial than any other form of say gymnastics?

Kind regards

Dave

A botched throw, especially forward throws, can easily lead into a choke. Screwing up ippon seionage or performing a sloppy one, for example, can leave you pretty open to a haddake jime (please excuse the terrible spelling of Japanese terms). Working a choke from the guard or in a mount position isn't uncommon either. Don't let the point system fool you. While the point system leaves much to be desired, it isn't a grappling version of point sparring.

I think most sports based Judo clubs still consider their art to have martial applications. A good judoka, and fighter in general, understands the value of adapability. I think this is most apparent when practicing gripping attacks. You take what grip you can get and use it. I think the concept translates into self-defense situations. Sports training has its limitations, but I don't think self-defense applications is one of them.

[Dave Humm]

Thank your for your replys guys :) always appreciated


Dave