How long will it take for me to obtain a degree of competency?

[Pepe-2004]

I had my first boxing lesson last night and feel a little dispirited as it seems I have a mountain to climb - boxing's a lot harder than it looks. Is it natural to feel like you couldn't punch your way out of a paper bag afterwards?

I have a background in karate (5 years) but wanted something a little more 'streetwise', my first lesson was a mixture of fitness - press-ups, skipping, sit-ups, dips, jogging/sprinting and shadow boxing, as well as some basic boxing techniques - jab and reverse-punch.

I was planning on cross-training in judo or Muay Thai as well, but I'm not sure I'll be capable. Does anybody else cross-train?

:confused:

[greenfrog]

Take Muay Thai or Western Boxing but dont take both as a beginner. Theres different stances and footwork and you'll just confuse yourself. Cross-training in a ground art is a good idea. BJJ, Judo, whatever

[TheMachine]

I cross train in BJJ, muay thai and boxing. I have to agree that you have to have a certain level of knowledge in either muay thai or boxing before trying the other out. Boxing is a lot harder than most people think. I would suggest you cros train in BJJ, wrestling or judo aside from boxing.

[Freeform]

As the lads have already said, choose to start with Muay Thai or Boxing first, the hands in MT are quite different than boxing, and if your after 'streetwise' I'd start with boxing first (keep those feet on the ground). But once you feel proficient with boxing, sure take up the Thai.

Boxing hands, Thai feet. A vicious combo :D

[Ikken Hisatsu]

if you are purely doing it for self defense I would use boxing as a base, and work things like elbows and knees into your boxing. the thai boxing stance is designed with the idea that the other guy is going to kick the crap out of your legs, whereas in a self defense situation this will almost never happen. judo or wrestling with boxing is a very good combination.

[Pepe-2004]

Thanks guys! Yes your advice makes sense, perhaps I should cross-train in judo only until I've got the hang of boxing. Yes, I'm look for street arts only, arts that will work on the street - I've just finished reading Geoff Thompson's book 'Watch My Back' and he seems to think boxing is the way to go.

I'm still sore from Tuesday and I'll have to do it all again tomorrow! :eek: I'm 25 years old and as i mentioned have a karate background, but became disillusioned with it. I feel very awkward with boxing and was constantly told to 'lean forward' as I was still sitting in my karate stance. It strikes me that I'll have to 'unlearn' karate, which isn't a problem, but it just feels as though it'll take forever - the only consolation is that most beginners feel like this I suppose.

Does it take long to get the hang of boxing? As I said in my first post

[Freeform]

Really depends on what you mean by 'the hang'. (oo err ;))

It shouldn't take you long to get the gross motor function of punching and covering down, but it can take forever to get it fine tuned.

Then you have to learn your timing, spotting oppertunities etc. Pretty much the same as with your Karate sparring.

Col

[Dr.Syn]

It will depends on how hard you train..As the others have stated have a good base or working knowledge of one discipline before you try another..I satrted with Shorin-Ryu and stuck with it for about a year or so before I moved on to experience other styles..

[gakami]

I had my first boxing lesson last night and feel a little dispirited as it seems I have a mountain to climb - boxing's a lot harder than it looks. Is it natural to feel like you couldn't punch your way out of a paper bag afterwards?

I'm proud of you man. There are a lot of people out there who refuse to open minds and try different things, and the worst thing is what they're training in may not even be effective. I'm not saying karate is bad, but if you want the real deal in karate, you'd have to search high and low to find the genuine article. It's very hard to "fake" in boxing though as you can see.

As everyone has mentioned here, don't try to pick up too many martial arts at once. Pick one and start it first. The martial arts you mentioned are all very different from karate, it'll take time for you to re-train your body to move and react differently.

So.. just pick one and stick with it for a while until you get the hang of it.

[Pepe-2004]

I'm proud of you man. There are a lot of people out there who refuse to open minds and try different things, and the worst thing is what they're training in may not even be effective. I'm not saying karate is bad, but if you want the real deal in karate, you'd have to search high and low to find the genuine article. It's very hard to "fake" in boxing though as you can see.

As everyone has mentioned here, don't try to pick up too many martial arts at once. Pick one and start it first. The martial arts you mentioned are all very different from karate, it'll take time for you to re-train your body to move and react differently.

So.. just pick one and stick with it for a while until you get the hang of it.

Thanks, I found during a confrontation that I wasn't as able as I thought and realised certain things just don't work 'live'. I then read this article by Geoff Thompson:

http://www.geoffthompson.com/articles/article_questions_for_geoff.htm

2) How relevant is it to learn the martial arts (or one particular art) in order to be able to look after yourself?

Geoff Thompson. It can be completely relevant and at the very same time not relevant at all. If you get the right system you could be capable of looking after your self in six months, if you get the wrong system you might be there 20 years and still be incapable of having a fight out side the chip shop. There is a lot more to martial art that having a fight off course, but if that is all you are after you'd be better going to a boxing class because they will give you that in a heart beat, but you'll pay the price. There is never a queue to train in boxing, and that's a good sign, and it'll cost you next to nothing in cash. But it is real forge training where you pay in blood sweat and often tears. Look for the clubs with broken noses and cauliflower ears and you'll be on the right track.

He holds a 7th dan in karate, but has also studied several other arts including boxing and spent nine years as a club doorman so I believe he knows what he's talking about.

[KaoChu]

Hi Pepe & everyone (yep, 1st post).

This thread caught my eye as the original question is one i have asked and continue to ask all the time as i started Boxing around 9 months ago at the ripe old age of 39!!.

What to say, except that the answer is purely down to you and as said above, how hard you train. I can only really let you know a bit of my story/progress as some sort of help.

I have done other arts before and was very fit already when I started the Boxing (have spent years lifting weights seriously etc), so this has helped enormously.
The first few lessons were very hard (private lessons btw) in that I was using muscles that were not really used before and perhaps more importantly, the arms and shoulders were being jarred badly (heavy bag) and this took some adapting. however, after about 3 months the body is well on its way to adapting and developing for so much punching, bobbing & weaving and all the other movements and excersises.

if you push yourself very hard every time without fail you should be getting quite reasonable at around 5 - 6 months. The 1st 3 months for me was all the heavy bag work, pad work, fitness and most importantly 'Core' work, the situps/crunches, having your coach slam the big medicine ball into your midsection etc, very important imho as this sets you up for taking the bodyshots when sparring.
There are always guys walking into the Boxing gym saying how they want to spar but dont really want to do anything else, well, these guys are normally turned down by the gym except for the odd occasion where they get into the ring to spar, take a hard body shot and never come back!!.

The real deal for me was when I started sparring, this is just so great, started with light to medium contact first (prob around 3 weeks or so) then progressed onto taking diabolical whacks :eek: , you get used to them very quickly, very important to stay relaxed. In my case, my coach is a young pro helping out the owner/his trainer and we get on very well now, we spar hard and I, now actually give him a very decent workout aswell (this is how i measure my progress). This does however mean spending a few weekends mildly concussed :cry: but I find it so addictive that i simply wouldnt want it any other way, when you spar full contact it is just so relaxing afterwards its hard to describe, keeps me relaxed for a day or so after aswell.

Now, re the sparring, depending on who you spar with/what standard, you will notice that it is incredibly hard to actually hit a pro Boxer, ridiculously difficult despite the fact that he is only a few feet away from you, you will see what i mean when you try, but you get hand speed up very quickly and will start connecting those punches within a few weeks, its all down to anticipation, ie. seeing the strikes coming, slipping the jabs, bare in mind that your coach or pro will have been training for years and they see your punches coming just from the way you move your body etc..

Finally, stick with it mate, its such a great activity to be doing, and it will definetely help for the street as any art/sport that spars full contact with non compliant partners will, imho.
you made a great choice and in some ways (this is from my personal point of view) maybe/possibly an even better choice than Muay Thai, I say this because of the sheer difference in movement/footwork/stances, Boxers move so very well and are very good at getting under or ducking punches, Muay Thai has so much emphasis on kicks, I am not comfortable using kicks in a dangerous street situation where it is very natural to punch. I did Muay Thai for a while and probably would have still been doing it if i hadnt moved house to a place where there is no MT but only western Boxing, anyways, good choice, stick at it and push yourself to the limit and you will get quite reasonable within 6 - 9 months.

ps, forgot to say, in my view, you must train at least twice per week (min) to improve where as only once per week is not too good.
hope this helps.........

[Jimmy Jitsu]

One of the beauties I find in boxing is it is entirely down to you to be effecient. There really is no quicky solutation. Some people are naturally talented but people to take up boxing must train extremely hard. In boxing there really is no second place. It really is down to hard training and listening to your coach for advice. One of the things I like about boxing is there is much more personal coaching and building a working relationship as opposed to being in another master art where there is large dogo and the coach is training everyone as a group. Keep it up the rewards will be worth it.

[gakami]

kaochu - amazing post man! Thanks for sharing that with us. Where are you located by the way??

[KaoChu]

kaochu - amazing post man! Thanks for sharing that with us. Where are you located by the way??hi gakami, thanks for your comments. I am a few miles from Peterborough at the moment (originally from Central London), I hope to move back to London next year :)

[gakami]

When you said "Finally, stick with it mate", I thought you were from Australia.

So why boxing at 39?

[KaoChu]

well gakami, I was training in Muay Thai for a while but moved area and there is only western boxing within travelling distance of me for now, so thats one reason, more importantly, I like to train in realistic full contact arts/sports rather than a traditional MA these days, so Boxing fits the bill nicely, I also like the conditioning and very hard style of training.

[gakami]

well gakami, I was training in Muay Thai for a while but moved area and there is only western boxing within travelling distance of me for now, so thats one reason, more importantly, I like to train in realistic full contact arts/sports rather than a traditional MA these days, so Boxing fits the bill nicely, I also like the conditioning and very hard style of training.

Oh right, I was thinking that you hadn't had contact sport experience before. But if you have a muay thai background, then you probably can already take a few hits as well as give a few.

Has it really been that hard for the transition from muay thai to boxing? Granted that straight out boxing is only a small part of muay thai.

I've always wanted to give muay thai a go, I have a little boxing experience but that's it.

[Pepe-2004]

Hi Pepe & everyone (yep, 1st post).

This thread caught my eye as the original question is one i have asked and continue to ask all the time as i started Boxing around 9 months ago at the ripe old age of 39!!.

What to say, except that the answer is purely down to you and as said above, how hard you train. I can only really let you know a bit of my story/progress as some sort of help.

I have done other arts before and was very fit already when I started the Boxing (have spent years lifting weights seriously etc), so this has helped enormously.
The first few lessons were very hard (private lessons btw) in that I was using muscles that were not really used before and perhaps more importantly, the arms and shoulders were being jarred badly (heavy bag) and this took some adapting. however, after about 3 months the body is well on its way to adapting and developing for so much punching, bobbing & weaving and all the other movements and excersises.

if you push yourself very hard every time without fail you should be getting quite reasonable at around 5 - 6 months. The 1st 3 months for me was all the heavy bag work, pad work, fitness and most importantly 'Core' work, the situps/crunches, having your coach slam the big medicine ball into your midsection etc, very important imho as this sets you up for taking the bodyshots when sparring.
There are always guys walking into the Boxing gym saying how they want to spar but dont really want to do anything else, well, these guys are normally turned down by the gym except for the odd occasion where they get into the ring to spar, take a hard body shot and never come back!!.

The real deal for me was when I started sparring, this is just so great, started with light to medium contact first (prob around 3 weeks or so) then progressed onto taking diabolical whacks :eek: , you get used to them very quickly, very important to stay relaxed. In my case, my coach is a young pro helping out the owner/his trainer and we get on very well now, we spar hard and I, now actually give him a very decent workout aswell (this is how i measure my progress). This does however mean spending a few weekends mildly concussed :cry: but I find it so addictive that i simply wouldnt want it any other way, when you spar full contact it is just so relaxing afterwards its hard to describe, keeps me relaxed for a day or so after aswell.

Now, re the sparring, depending on who you spar with/what standard, you will notice that it is incredibly hard to actually hit a pro Boxer, ridiculously difficult despite the fact that he is only a few feet away from you, you will see what i mean when you try, but you get hand speed up very quickly and will start connecting those punches within a few weeks, its all down to anticipation, ie. seeing the strikes coming, slipping the jabs, bare in mind that your coach or pro will have been training for years and they see your punches coming just from the way you move your body etc..

Finally, stick with it mate, its such a great activity to be doing, and it will definetely help for the street as any art/sport that spars full contact with non compliant partners will, imho.
you made a great choice and in some ways (this is from my personal point of view) maybe/possibly an even better choice than Muay Thai, I say this because of the sheer difference in movement/footwork/stances, Boxers move so very well and are very good at getting under or ducking punches, Muay Thai has so much emphasis on kicks, I am not comfortable using kicks in a dangerous street situation where it is very natural to punch. I did Muay Thai for a while and probably would have still been doing it if i hadnt moved house to a place where there is no MT but only western Boxing, anyways, good choice, stick at it and push yourself to the limit and you will get quite reasonable within 6 - 9 months.

ps, forgot to say, in my view, you must train at least twice per week (min) to improve where as only once per week is not too good.
hope this helps.........

Excellent post, thanks pal. ;)

[KaoChu]

Excellent post, thanks pal. ;)you are welcome, hope its of benefit :)

[silentwarrior]

hello all, i take shinbudo ( cross training program dealing with boxing, kung fu, muay thai and bjj) however bjj is the only complete style taught on top of this i take Inayan Eskrima which deals with some boxing combos and what not. but i was wonderin if you guys think this is to much of a heavy case load to be taking on at one time. The instructor for shinbudo does stress the importance of good boxing techniqueand speed (it was the first thing he trained in) but we dont deal with jump ropes, speed bags and i dont think it focuses on it that much but then again ive only been thier for 2 months.

[Darting Viper]

Greetings!

I am currently a practioner of kuro-bushi kai karate-do kempo, Shotokan, and Western boxing. Here is where boxing can really complement the martial arts.

THE GOOD:

-- boxing trains full contact, so you will know what it is like to get hit, unlike arts such as Shotokan, and you will also know how effective your hits are. After all, we all like to think that we have knock out punching power.

-- boxing teaches you how to work the clinch. If any of you have ever been in a real fight or seen real fights, you will know that clinches, regardless if it is in the form of a bear hug or of someone grabbing your sleeve with one hand and pummeling you with the other, are commonplace. In boxing, you will know how to work the clinch and use it to your advantage.

-- boxers focus of combo training which, contrary to Shotokan experts and their likes, is very important. Boxing combos are scientifically constructed to take advantage of the movement of the human body. This science is known as autokinetics. For example, one of the best combos in boxing is the jab/cross/fore-hook combo. This combo works because one will usually raise his/her arm across one's face during the jab/cross portion of the combo, thus leaving the side of the face open for the fore-hook ending of the combo.

-- boxers know how to respond to a hit. This is perhaps the MOST important lesson in boxing. Let me demonstrate with an example. On one episode of the reality tv show, "The Next Great Champ, two great boxers were paired up against each other, Otis and Paul. During the first round, Paul threw a beautiful combo at Otis, backing Otis against the ropes. Finally, Paul lands a straight right on Otis. As Otis turns his face away due to the impact of the straight right, he simutaneously cocks back his right arm and right hip and unleashes his own straight right. Most people, Shotokan experts included, will more than likely touch their own face, feeling for blood, etc, after being punched in the face. Yet, unless someone dazes a boxer, a boxer will continue fighting as if he has never been hit.

THE BAD

-- although boxing combos are beautiful, they are not as efficient as they can be due to a lack of a few techniques. For example, here is one combo in kempo that I find extremely effective. After throwing a fore-hook (my name for a hook thrown with the leading hand), immediately follow it with a hammer fist with the same arm simply by reversing the rotation of your hips and extend your hooking arm. Here is the autokinetic/psychological illustrations behind this combo. If I throw a fore-hook at you, you are likely to either duck it or roll backwards from it. Although you are out of range for a fore-hook a hammerfist has a much longer range and is usually unexpected. I have gotten more than one person with this combo during sparring matches :).

-- boxers do not use checking. Checking is a great, simple, and very effective technique in a streetfight. Checking, as defined in several styles of kempo, is simply temporarily immobilizing a person's weapons so that you can unleash your punishing combos. Here's my favorite example. During sparring matches, I often like to fake a jab so that I can step on the leading foot of my opponent with my leading foot, thereby checking him. Then, I unleash my combo on him. Here's another variation that I have tried successfully. Fake a jab and, as your opponent raises his arm up for defense, grab that arm, shove him backwards, and just keep attacking him with straight rights and hooks.

As you can see, boxing is a great art. Recently, though, there are many new breeds of martial arts styles that have adapted the full contact training and combo based training philosophies of boxing. Here are two, for example: kyokushinkai karate, created by Mas Oyama and Kuzen Kempo (aka Hawaiian Kempo aka The Pit Kempo), created by Grandmaster John Hackleman, 10th degree black belt in Kajukenbo. Grandmaster Hackleman's most famous student is UFC Champion Sensei Chuck "The Iceman" Liddell, 4th degree black belt in Kuzen Kempo.

By the way, I have not listed all of the advantages and disadvantages of boxing over the martial arts. I welcome anyone to add more. Also, I welcome comments and complaints as well.

Boxers and martial artists unite!

Your brother in the martial arts,
Darting Viper

[Ikken Hisatsu]

-- boxing teaches you how to work the clinch. If any of you have ever been in a real fight or seen real fights, you will know that clinches, regardless if it is in the form of a bear hug or of someone grabbing your sleeve with one hand and pummeling you with the other, are commonplace. In boxing, you will know how to work the clinch and use it to your advantage.
I dont agree with this. boxing will teach you how to use the boxing clinch in the ring, but the boxing clinch is not an effective tool to use for self defense. if you want to learn how to clinch, go greco roman or thai boxing.

-- boxers focus of combo training which, contrary to Shotokan experts and their likes, is very important. Boxing combos are scientifically constructed to take advantage of the movement of the human body. This science is known as autokinetics. For example, one of the best combos in boxing is the jab/cross/fore-hook combo. This combo works because one will usually raise his/her arm across one's face during the jab/cross portion of the combo, thus leaving the side of the face open for the fore-hook ending of the combo. I think shotokan karates biggest flaw is the lack of "flow" in the punching techniques. the first punch probably won't land, the second one has more chance, the third more, etc. accurracy by volume might not sound pretty but fights arent supposed to be.

[alex_000]

Greetings!
-- boxing teaches you how to work the clinch. If any of you have ever been in a real fight or seen real fights, you will know that clinches, regardless if it is in the form of a bear hug or of someone grabbing your sleeve with one hand and pummeling you with the other, are commonplace. In boxing, you will know how to work the clinch and use it to your advantage.


Your post was ok and I agree with most of it but i think you are mistaken here. Boxing teaches the clinch in a bad way (Hug the opponent if you're tired or get too close nothing else apart from that). You learn how to "control" an opponent (but rather ineffectively) you learn the correct timing to grab him but that's not near enough.

Working the clinch means you must hold or control the attacher by holding him tight and be able to hit him or throw him at the same time.

Muay thai works the clinch well (elbowing/kneeing). Judo works the clinch well (throwing). Boxing doesn't.

[Darting Viper]

Greetings!

I dont agree with this. boxing will teach you how to use the boxing clinch in the ring, but the boxing clinch is not an effective tool to use for self defense. if you want to learn how to clinch, go greco roman or thai boxing.


Hisatsu, I totally agree with you. I never said that boxing clinches were the best. Yet, they sure beat the hell out of not learning how to clinch at all ;). As you have said, a good Thai boxer will destroy you once he/she has you in a clinch.


Boxing teaches the clinch in a bad way (Hug the opponent if you're tired or get too close nothing else apart from that). You learn how to "control" an opponent (but rather ineffectively) you learn the correct timing to grab him but that's not near enough.

Working the clinch means you must hold or control the attacher by holding him tight and be able to hit him or throw him at the same time.


alex_000, excellent point! I would, nevertheless, like to add the following. Most martials arts styles, such as Shotokan karate, teaches one to back away from one's opponent if one's opponent were charging at him/her. If any of you have ever done 3-step sparring, then you will know what I mean. This is the wrong mentality. If a person charges into you and you back up, that just fuels their charge. Boxing, on the hand, would teach you either to side-step your opponent, if possible or, since it is rarely possible once your opponent is already in the middle of a very fast combo, clinch him/her. At the very least, you will not develop the wrong mentality of running backwards and fleeing from a rush.

Yet, to emphasize your point, it is definitely much more prudent to be able to, for example, clinch your opponent, grab his shirt, and throw him using a judo-style cross-buttocks throw than to simply hold your opponent. Nevertheless, a boxer's clinch will purchase you a little time to think.

Sometimes my friends and I like to simulate NHB fights using light contact. I find that, due to my training in boxing, I tend to rush in and immobilize my opponent's arms when the going gets rough. Since I have no judo training, I have no idea how to execute throws and such. Yet, I would normally wait for the opportunity to arrive in my sparring match that will allow me to convert a boxing clinch into a kempo's check. All I'd have to do is, while I am in the clinch, I would try to step on the foot of my opponent and, at the same time, grab onto the wrist of my opponent's right arm with my left. Then, I would throw right hooks directed to the ear and temple to get my opponent's head to move back. Once he moves back, I squeeze my right arm into the vacant space and start executing hammerfists onto his nose. Usually, the result would be my opponent trying to get out of my clinch and swerve away from the nose/eye blows. Once again, although my way of working the clinch is not as effective as a sweep or a throw, it is, nevertheless, more effective than a Shotokan expert running backwards and waiting for an opening that never materializes within a blizzard of blows.

That's just my thought. Once again, great posts, you guys!

Your brother in the martial arts,
Darting Viper

[alex_000]

Greetings!
Most martials arts styles, such as Shotokan karate, teaches one to back away from one's opponent if one's opponent were charging at him/her. If any of you have ever done 3-step sparring, then you will know what I mean. This is the wrong mentality. If a person charges into you and you back up, that just fuels their charge. Boxing, on the hand, would teach you either to side-step your opponent, if possible or, since it is rarely possible once your opponent is already in the middle of a very fast combo, clinch him/her. At the very least, you will not develop the wrong mentality of running backwards and fleeing from a rush.


Ι Haven't done any 3-step sparring. Only boxing and kickboxing (and started judo a week ago)

If you compare boxing with karate the way clinch works in boxing can be an advantage, and I agree with what you say. But as I said earlier if you compare boxing with MT , Judo , MMA , JiuJitsu, greco-roman or whatever the clinch work in boxing would be a dissadvantage.

But i just think that boxing doesn't qualify for the phrase "boxing teaches you how to work the clinch" you mentioned. Does It teach you to grab an opponent even if he's attacking ? Yes. Evading his punches and grabing him ? Yes , Counter ang grab ? Yes. But it stops there. You can say that it teaches you to grab someone or not to back up when you're attacked, but actually boxing doen't work the clinch even a bit.

[Yukimushu]

One thing i have gained since starting boxing is confidence when fighting at close distance. Before i started, i was very leg orientated, and began to panic when the opponent closed the distance. But since starting boxing, i've become alot better simply because i do not panic and have the confidence when fighting at close distances.

[Darting Viper]

Greetings!


If you compare boxing with karate the way clinch works in boxing can be an advantage, and I agree with what you say. But as I said earlier if you compare boxing with MT , Judo , MMA , JiuJitsu, greco-roman or whatever the clinch work in boxing would be a dissadvantage.

But i just think that boxing doesn't qualify for the phrase "boxing teaches you how to work the clinch" you mentioned. Does It teach you to grab an opponent even if he's attacking ? Yes. Evading his punches and grabing him ? Yes , Counter ang grab ? Yes. But it stops there. You can say that it teaches you to grab someone or not to back up when you're attacked, but actually boxing doen't work the clinch even a bit.


alex_000, you have made an excellent point! So, to rectify my mistake, here is my revised comment: boxing teaches you not to be afraid of fighting in close. Boxing also teaches you how to enter the clinch. I do apologize for committing such a specious remark.

By the way, the only reason why I speak of boxing clinches more than all the others is not because I am in a boxing class and can't get out of it. Rather, I am being trained in boxing by a friend of mine. See, I am a college student too poor for formal training in just about any combat art. I studied Shotokan for two semesters at the University of New Orleans. UNO and LSU are two of a few schools around here that actually offers two semesters of Shotokan training for semester credit hours through their physical education programs. I was taught kempo by a friend of mine and a little bit of ninjitsu by another friend of mine. Now, I need a friend who studies Muay Thai or Greco-Roman wrestling :).

alex_000, thanks for your input. I welcome them at any time.

Your brother in the martial arts,
Darting Viper

[alex_000]

I do apologize for committing such a specious remark.


lol take it easy its no big deal, I liked your post a lot in general.

Keep on training !!