Ninjutsu

[Bruce Lee]

Hi i was browsing by and saw ninjustsu.I was curious and made a thread.I don't know anything about it but I know 2 thing its a martial arts and its like fo ninjas.If I ask too much dont get mad.:Angel: :Alien:

[pgm316]

I know ninja's main enemy is the samurai and there always kicking each others asses. What style of martial arts do samurai use?

[Darzeka]

Bu-Do.

The same thing as the ninja's learnt - kind of. The Samurai also had the Budokan code which limited much of thier possible potential in fighting situations.

The Samurai also based much of thier lives around swords and used them for as much meditation as actual sword play.

[pgm316]

So what is Bu-Do and what happened to these martial arts? Did they evolve to become things like Karate/Jujitsu or is that a totally seperate evolution of the arts?

[Darzeka]

Well the Samurai cast were disbanded by the American govenrment when they "occupied" Japan at the end of WWII.

Bu-Do was the way they learned to teach themselves to fight. It included throws, locking/joint manipulation, striking/kicking/ grappling, weaponary, etc.

A few bright sparks in Japan didn't want to see all that culture and an entire piece of the Japanese society and haistory vanish, so they formed "sports" specialising in an area of Bu-Do. We got Judo, Karate, Aikido, Kendo, etc., all those "original" and now mainstream arts as a broken down, sport activity, rather than a way of living that prodused a caste of people who were walking deadly weapons.

As Bu-Do the name is more than a long essay in translation, it was roughly translated to "martial art". It is probably more correctly translated to "human spontaneity in repsonse to Do or nature" (paraphrased from the ninjukai website).
This is more of what a Martial Art is - not a series of strikes, a stance but the way you move your body in a fighting sense. What we now call a martial art is better termed as a "martial training style" where each "art" is differed from by its training practises and angle of fighting.

Bu-Do is the way the Samurai responded to a fighting situation.

[pgm316]

Good post! Thanks for the info Darzeka!

[Juzo]

The Samurai class was actually disbanded at the beginning of the Meiji restoration era (1868), as were all military ranks such as Taiko, Shogun, or Daimyo.

Budo best translates into "Martial Way". It is made up of 2 kanji, the first one being Bu (pronounced Wu in Chinese, or Mu in Korean), which is usually translated as warfare, military, or martial, though the meaning goes deeper than that. "Do" is best translated as path or way. Bujutsu is the word that means Martial Art, therefore Budo would imply the higher level of the art than just the technique forms.

Budo wasnt studied just by Samurai. Other high rank military leaders studied it too. Also, Ninpo is now seen as Budo, hence the reason for the change of Bujinkan being called Ninpo Taijutsu to Budo Taijutsu, because Soke Hatsumi wanted it to be recognised as Budo.

[Juzo]

Forgot to mention. The plural of Ninja is Ninja, not "Ninjas". Japanese nouns tend to stay the same in singular and plural form because kanji isnt pluralised.

[Freeform]

Doh! You beat me to it. Although the Samurai class still existed albeit in a different form, as administrators and such like. kinda like an upper working class, or lower upper class type of status.

Also, most of the arts that end in do, originated in the era 1910 - 1930. The way (do) generally implies a higher way and more spiritual activity, whilst Jitsu stresses technique over spirituality, and Jutsu implies the practice of purely hommicidal activities.

Col

[Cougar_v203]

no one cares about the samurai GOD!!! syke kidding :)

[Bruce Lee]

Anyways when you are learnimg ninjutsu or bu-do, do they teach you stuff like running on walls and jumping to roof tops to roof tops.I wasjust wondering because everybody seems to like ninjutsu because of these.I just think it is cool even though I dont know that much stuff about ninjutsu or bu do and did the ninja and the samaurai ever fought they seem like they are the same to me .

[SilentNightfall]

Okay, here's a clarification. First, there actually is a technique in ninjutsu for running up/scaling walls. No, we do not practice jumping from rooftop to rooftop. Ninjutsu is not based on acrobatic moves like Hollywood and videogames would have you believe. Second, it is doubtful that the ninja and samurai did not fight back in the warring period of Japan. You have to remember that various people were fighting to control Japan and each had his own army of samurai, as well as possible hired ninja. If the samurai of one lord came across the ninja of another, there would obviously be a conflict. Also I believe at one point in the history of the various ninja families living in the mountainous regions of Honshu (central), samurai were sent to try and exterminate them, but I am unsure as to this. Obviously if this is factual, there would have bee a clash of ninja and samurai. Hope this helps. If you have any other questions, simply ask.

[Seperoth3333]

The samurai are cool but ninjas are the more seperiour. They can disapear in front of your eyes, jump realy high and other cool stuff. The samurai are more weapon based but they have some realy cool lookin swords.

[Seperoth3333]

Just to imform u former ninjas/samurais/students/killers lol. The last ninja didnt die in 1968. If you think so think how the goverment likes to cover things up. Realy there something worse now. Something we all have. Its are iner chi. Every one has it. If you realy do martial arts your teacher tell you about focous from your center. Heres something to try at home. Lets take a journey, to find your self if you say your arm feet face. Your wrong. your energy. Deep with in your self. So try this focous on bring your energy out of your hands. just fosous. After a while your hands get real warm. If u dont belive me try it your self. Thats as far as I have gotten. There are 7 energy bars with in your body that are different colors. Color in this case is light traveling at different frequencys. This inables you to tape into doing thing like the matrix. Dodge bollets, jump realy high. How do u think Bruce lee cought a bullet in his mouth. All of you martial art masters out there should try it to because you proably have a better chance to do this because of all the martial arts you been doing all of your life. Well if you want me to answer any questions just e-mail me.

[SilentNightfall]

LoL. Curse you Hollywood! Actually no, ninja cannot and never could disappear right in front of someone. The more practical thing to say would be that ninja could/can escape if given the chance by "disappearing" into the environment (for example, by using camouflaging techniques). Also, the ninja used just as many, if not more, weapons than the samurai. Also, the ninja actually used the same swords as the samurai (which were expensive and finely made, and out of the budget of your typical ninja as well) since they would search battlefields for the discarded swords of dead warriors. As far as the last ninja dying in 1968, this is indeed not true. O'Sensei Takamatsu, who is thought to be the last true living ninja, died in 1972. Now, whether or not you believe that others today can be true ninja is strictly your opinion. I'd like to believe that it is possible for any of us to earn such a title, however, I don't believe any of us will ever deserve it in the sense that Takamatsu-sensei did. After all, no one exactly goes around fighting death matches in China anymore as he did. Though again this isn't exactly what made a ninja a ninja now is it? Oi... I've confused myself yet again. I'd better be off before I get a headache. Until later, all.

[SilentNightfall]

Oh, and before I forget... Yes, chi/inner energy is good. No, it will not enable you to do things like in the Matrix if you think that you will begin stopping bullets in mid-air or dodging a bunch of shots fired at you. And did Bruce Lee really catch a bullet between his teeth? That one is new to me. Anyone else heard of this? Anyway... Channeling your inner energy is definitely a good practice if you know how. Personally, I'm ways off before I will be able to do anything truly effective with mine. I'll stick to just getting the physical aspect down before I go into the complete mental/spiritual concept of channeling energy and focusing the mind. That's not to say that my training does not involve any mental/spiritual training, but I just don't work on it extensively, mostly because I'm extremely limited in what I can do. But enough rambling. It's 2:20 a.m. Night, everyone!

[Seperoth3333]

Silent Night Fall the only thing Im saying is you have 7 main types of energy in you. All different colors. But Color in this maner is light traveling at different frquencys. If you could tape into your one color that slowes every thing down then you could dodge bullets. Not stop them in mid air. Just think of it like spiderman the movie were he gets in that fight. He sees the guys arm moving all slow but to the guy hes moving normal speed. Thats all I'm trying to say.

[Seperoth3333]

All ya theres a couple of theres on why ninjas can jump so high. One is they tye boards on the back of there legs and jump every day. They do so for years. Then after so long they take them off and the bend of the knee gives them more levrege. The other is they plant a seed of corn and jump it every day till it breaks then they have to start over. This one takes years to do though.

[JediMasterChris]

If you could tape into your one color that slowes every thing down then you could dodge bullets

Uh......where did you hear that???

Also about ninja disappearing in front of your face....I am not so sure about that really......:confused:


I guess you are entitled to your opinion though of course......:love:

[JediMasterChris]

So try this focous on bring your energy out of your hands.

Ok, well...first I learned to find the energy,then I learned to hold it in my lower abdomen, then from there spread it out to other parts of my body... I think what you are doing is just the blood rushing away from your hand or something???:D

[Freeform]

I might take him seriously if his spelling wasn't so bad :D

Or maybe the blood rush is making his keyboard all swirly (is this even a real word?)!

Col

[kensai]

Just a correction,

The characters Bu Do dont tranlate literarly into the "Martial Way". They are both Chinese characters that translate more correctly to:

Bu - "Against many spears"

Do - "Way"

Budo arts dont just focus on the external abilitys but also try to hone you as a person.

But more importantly Samurai kick Ninja ass!

MWHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[JediMasterChris]

I might take him seriously if his spelling wasn't so bad


That is what I was thinking....:love:

[JediMasterChris]

But more importantly Samurai kick Ninja ass!


Yes! And without dislocating everything and using poison!

[kensai]

Exactly, us Samurai types are just generally better than those Ninja peasants. lol.

Just joking.

*Wonders if he will wake up in the morning.*

[Brad Ellin]

Do you know what the word "samurai" meant? Servant. Hmm... I'd rather be a fee range ninja, than a servant samurai.

[SilentNightfall]

Amen to that one, Kurohana. :D

[JediMasterChris]

But samurai were serving royalty were they not? I see much more honor in serving somebody else.

[SilentNightfall]

There is an old proverb that says, "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." I believe that that is somewhat relevant here. But not to take anything away from the samurai, really. This is all in fun. They were a great group of warriors. I believe that their code of bushido limited their capabilities in combat, however. Also, samurai might have had honor, but many abused their power and committed many unspeakable acts. For instance, samurai would test out the cutting ability of their new sword on innocent villagers. Ninja typically only killed when necessary. It's the whole idea of harmony once again. I would still bet on the ninja to win in a true battle, however. Samurai just couldn't handle guerilla warfare tactics that the ninja often employed. No poisons or dislocations. Just ambushing and true combat. Oh yeah!

[JediMasterChris]

Ninja would always draw their swords faster because they had them slightly shorter than the samurai.

[Brad Ellin]

Actually, that's a bit of Hollywood sneaking in. The typical sword carried by the ninja were katana either a) handed down thru the family b) taken from dead/defeated foes or c) stolen. The ninja-to, short straight edge sword was a utilitarian tool mass produced and meant to be discarded if neccesary. It was not the main fighting sword. Personally, I don't think it could have handled the stress of going up against a katana, my opinion though, take it for what it's worth.

[SilentNightfall]

I agree with you Brad. As I stated somewhere before on these boards, the ninja would often search battlefields for the discarded katana of dead samurai. I also don't believe that a ninja-to would hold up to a katana as it was no where near as finely crafted. The ninja simply could not afford such things. So anyway, yes, the sword used mostly by the ninja for battle were the katana of the samurai, or a katana passed down through the family, though I think it would be rare that a ninja family would have possession of such a thing; unless of course it was first stolen/found and then handed down. Well, that's all for now. Have a good one.

[Juzo]

Ninja usually stole swords from fallen Samurai, or other places as you guys mentioned, and modified them to make Shinobigatana, which were generally shorter bladed katana with lengthened tsuka. The reason for the shortened blade was for quick drawing, and the tsuka was lengthened for reasons that i dont know (maybe you guys can help? :D ). In Shinobi No Mono, they showed them using the Shinobigatana in conjunction with the Kusari Gama, though im not sure if its the actual reason for it being lengthened.

Here are a couple of examples of Shinobigatana.

http://www.geociities.com/kage_no_mono/shinobigatana.jpg
http://www.geociities.com/kage_no_mono/shinobigatana2.jpg

If the links dont work, copy and paste them into a new IE window.

[Juzo]

Hmm....... Well it would help if i spelt "geocities" right. Whoops........

http://www.geocities.com/kage_no_mono/shinobigatana.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/kage_no_mono/shinobigatana2.jpg

[Brad Ellin]

Keep in mind, Shinobi no Mono, though Hatsumi was technical advisor, was still just a movie. Entertainment. I doubt that that swords collected from fallen samurai were shortened, after all, these were'are some of the best blades ever produced. The ninja-to was usually made out of a single piece of forged steel. Scrap would be a likely source, because these swords were meant to be expendable. Now, if a katana was found and it was broken, then I could see it being modified i.e. shortened. You see a regular sized scabbard, you think regular size blade not suspecting the bottom of scabbard contained a metsubishi of some type. As for the tsuka, I don't know either. Best guess? Allowed for more freedom in using. Keep in mind all parts of the sword can and should be used as a weapon. I'll have to research this a bit more.

[SilentNightfall]

Brad's absolutely right about what he has said. No one in their right mind would break down a fully functional katana to make a ninja-to. Only broken blades would have been used for this, if at all. It is true that the ninja-to was expendable and Brad's comment about it being forged of scrap metal is pretty accurate from what I've read. The ninja-to was a tool. For a weapon, the ninja would rely on the intact katana that they found on the battlefields or wherever they might have obtained one. I have heard, however, that longer tsuka were, in fact, preferrable to shorter tsuka. If katana were modified to make the tsuka longer, I don't know, but certainly katana weren't turned into ninja-to unless already broken.

[ichiro katsumor]

alrught i didnt even read the second page so if someone already cleared this up srry
the samurai was a class of warrior aristocrats very similar to the knights of england ,it was something passed on through the family not simply picked up as an art .speaking of art alot of samurai didnt practise a martail art infact some thought martail artists were just that artists not warriors.they did ovcourse not get along with ninja thinking they were dishonorable.they were outlawed after the meiji(forgive me if i spelled it wrong)era after a band of samurai raised an army and attempted to overthrough the new government.josh it is true that samurai did at one point go to war with all ninja that was when nobunaga attempted to gain control of the country.what a punk.there were a few samurai that hung around for awhile as outlaws but they eventually died out.how sad.however my friend claims to be a samurai and i beleive him hes a good friend.but atleast that proves that samurai dont always fight with ninja.lol!!!!
-ichiro katsumori

[JediMasterChris]

No one in their right mind would break down a fully functional katana to make a ninja-to


But I thought they shortened the end by a few inches in order to draw their swords faster????? Mabey I am wrong but I have read this from over 5 sources. A few other sources say some other stuff too, so I am not really sure.

[ichiro katsumor]

they probably did sometimes however it is very difficult to alter a blade without ruining it and i doubt that unless they had some free time would bother cutting up a perfectly fine sword for that

[JediMasterChris]

I would cut up a perfectly fine sword if it meant walking away from a battle alive.

[Brad Ellin]

There may have been some that shortened the sword by a few inches, but they would be the exception rather than the rule. From my training, the length of the blade has little to do with how fast you draw, the "secret" being that you also pull your scabbard back from the blade as you draw. Since the ninja made their own swords, they could make the blade as long (or short) as the desired. The same with the scabbard.
A quick history of the ninja-to can be found in Hatsumi's book "Ninjutsu, History and Tradition", page 93. And in Stephen Hayes' book "The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art" pages 88-93.

On a side note: My own quick draw skills have something to be desired since I haven't had a sword of my own to practice with in awhile. But, by observing those with beautiful technique, both speed and accuracy, I have noticed they pull back the scabbard as they draw. This goes hand-in-hand with what I was taught. Also. the drawing of the blade is also the first cut. In any case, the timing of the drawing and the distance from your opponent were just as important a factor as the speed of the draw.

[JediMasterChris]

Yeah I know...my brother has practiced iaijutsu for almost 10 years...very fast drawing...he has helped me alot with drawing...I've noticed pulling back the scabbard as well...but I have also noticed a few inches can save alot of time too... but I guess you are right,I will check out those books. :D

[ichiro katsumor]

very good books just got history and tradition its one of the best books ive come accross

[JediMasterChris]

Okay...I can't find anywhere to get them, but when I do I will read on that.

[ichiro katsumor]

make an internet search for them if you cant afford them tell me and ill copy the books onto the comp and email them to you

[JediMasterChris]

Thanks,today I bought Ninjitsu history and tradition...I have only read a few pages but it seems interesting.

[ichiro katsumor]

good its very informative

[Kagebushi]

About a bigger Tsuka, they were often used as steps for short walls,(but only if you mean handguard, i have always heard it referred to as a "tsuba") and the blades were shorter so they would fit through tight spaces, although more speed was likely a reason too.

[Juzo]

Tsuka is handle, Tsuba is hand guard.

[Kagebushi]

oh thanx for correcting that (not sarcastic)