The Infamous Taiji Belly

[Sandus]

Does anybody know why Taiji practitioners always get that beer gut? Where does it come from? And is there any way to avoid it or get rid of it once you've got it?

[nzric]

Breathing from the dantien.

In taiji you're taught the correct way to breathe is with your stomach, and not to raise the chest. There's some old chinese saying that says the older you are the higher your breath gets (or something like that).

Breathing from the stomach makes sense from a health pov because you strengthen your stomach muscles, develop more power, and of course get a lot more oxygen. Unfortunately, you also get the big gut.

Of course, as you get older your body settles and everyone naturally develops a pot belly. It just happens to be that while the idols of many other martial arts (with six pack stomachs) are in their early 30s to 40s, many taiji practitioners would never be considered a "master" until they're at least in their 60s.

I suppose you just have to choose - do you want a six pack or do you want to be healthier?

As for getting rid of it.. DON'T change your breathing. You'll never develop real internal power without learning correct breathing. But maybe you could try pilates and core strengthening exercises. Also, training yourself to have correct posture makes it a lot better (e.g. I've taken the back of my chair off and raised my monitor at work so I have to sit up straight when I work on the computer).

[KungFuGirl]

Um, you can't breathe with your stomach. You can swallow air...

Do you mean your diaphragm?! Breathing with your diaphragm is better for you as you take in more air. Deep breathers tend ot have better health than shallow breathers.

Also, I really don't think that has to do with the pot belly. I mean if you take a lot of air into your stomach you just get gas, which of course, can bloat you but it doesn't give you a pot belly!?!

I think your old age theory is more accurate.

[nzric]

Yep, of course you're breathing with your diaphram but the correct way is to relax your stomach muscles down so you feel like you're breathing deeply into your stomach (rather than raising your chest).

Just look at the tenors.

[YODA]

Just look at the tenors.

And there was me thinking it was a lack of hard athletic training
:rolleyes:

[TkdWarrior]

hmm did anyone saw chen xio wang or chen xio wing having pot belling? what about Grandmaster Yao chuan(yi quan)?

I think after practicing yrs after yrs masters get burned out n get lazy :D ;)

-TkdWarrior-

[gedhab]

lazy....i dont think so, although you cant ignore the ageing process :rolleyes:

[David]

A six-pack is, at best, a hindrance to many of the coolest styles. :( But you get that legendary Chinese health thing out of it and the internal power is real.

[notquitedead]

A six-pack is, at best, a hindrance...
Actually if most people could lose the final layer of fat from their stomach area, they would have six packs. All it takes is gravity and breathing. The reason you see a lot of body-builders with visible six packs is that they have very low body fat.

[nzric]

Everyone has a six pack. Mine's insulated :)

[d33pthought]

I wouldn't worry about getting rid of it. Just gotta keep it strong. No sense having a flat belly with little muscle. Besides: a big hard gut is like armor when you take hits :D

[cybermonk]

I wouldn't worry about getting rid of it. Just gotta keep it strong. No sense having a flat belly with little muscle. Besides: a big hard gut is like armor when you take hits :D

I agree, althought I have a six pack(didnt have a say in it, it just happened) I would rather have really strong abdominal muscles than just go for the weak six pack everybody wants now a days.

[d33pthought]

I agree, althought I have a six pack(didnt have a say in it, it just happened)....

It's not your fault! You can be redeemed!!!! :D

[ZillaBilla]

If you look at the body shape of other primates you will see that they do not have 'six packs', they have belly, and quite large at that, in fact the same sort of shape you get from training abdominal breathing. Another interesting fact is that these primates are a lot stronger and resilient than humans. Chimpanzees share 98% of our DNA, however at the age of seven a chimp is five times stronger than an average adult male, in the sense of how much force the animal can exert per Kg, and this goes up to seven at the age of twelve.

Abdominal breathing not only strengthens the whole of the abdominal wall, front sides and back, but increases the muscle mass of these muscles, this also lowers the centre of gravity. This group of muscles is very large, however, I would think most people have very small range of movement with them. Furthermore when an individual has a six pack, the organs are packed in together, in a relatively small space, amongst other things this can restrict their optimal blood supply.

However, if you practice abdominal breathing and get rid of fat, you can develop a six pack, because the abdominal breathing works and strengthens these muscles significantly, as I think someone has mentioned. But, when such a six pack is developed, it is not normally visible, unless the practitioner contracts these muscles inside, as opposed to outside, which is the point of abdominal breathing. So if one wishes to have a six pack one could keep his muscles tight, but that defies the point of doing these exercises in the first place.

[Shadowdh]

Also we are taught to relax the ab muscles when breathing which means that the belly will protrude as we are not tensing them...

[ZillaBilla]

I would just like add that when we expand the Tai Chi belly, such as in a reverse breath, it is not going solid because of muscular contraction, but because the the 'Qi' in the 'tan tien' is expanded, or you could say the breath has expanded the belly, much like a ball.

[cybermonk]

If you look at the body shape of other primates you will see that they do not have 'six packs', they have belly, and quite large at that, in fact the same sort of shape you get from training abdominal breathing. Another interesting fact is that these primates are a lot stronger and resilient than humans. Chimpanzees share 98% of our DNA, however at the age of seven a chimp is five times stronger than an average adult male, in the sense of how much force the animal can exert per Kg, and this goes up to seven at the age of twelve.


I am not sure that is a valid point, ants are a lot stronger than chimps and humans yet they dont have bellies. I think chimp's bellies are related to high ammounts of body fat, the same with other animals, its a survival mechanism.

[ZillaBilla]

Hey Cybermonk,

The great apes that I am referring to, live in tropical and subtropical climates, I don’t think they have high or even moderate amounts of body fat. Now I’m no Jane Goodall, at least I don’t think I am. But I’ve been to the zoo quite a few times, and if you have a close look and a feel of these animals, as I have, mainly due to people wanting me in the photo, you can feel that they are very bony, and you can quite clearly see and feel their sinews and bones. I don’t think this would be the case if they were fat, so to speak. Thus, I don’t think the shape of their bellies is due to fat, but to muscular structure. One reason for that is these animals are mostly plant eaters and have to consume large amounts of food, thus require large viscera. However, if we examine these animals closely, for example a Chimp or an Orangutan, we see that the belly is big, and what the media refers to as ‘unshapely’, yet the arms and legs are very slender and flexible. These animals can generate huge amounts of force, yet their bodies contradict the common Western belief that muscle size equals strength. One should also remember that IMA’s were in part derived from mimicking the internal principles within animal movements. As mentioned previously a Chimp shares 98% of our DNA, if you got an adult Chimp and a human, put them side by side, the human would generally be bigger and have more muscle mass, but the Chimp would be much stronger. I don’t think that it is a coincidence that from doing IMA’s, or in other words disciplines that use coordinated wholly body power, low centre of gravity and abdominal breathing, our bodies start to move like and resemble those of our much stronger and agile distant relatives, and with enough practice can also project huge amounts of force.

I think you would have a better idea of what I mean, if you went to the zoo and fought a chimp.. Na… just playing, if you basically went down there and had a look at these specific attributes of their bodies with the above concepts in mind.

Then again, maybe were both right, and one thing can serve more than one purpose in nature.

Cheers..

ZB

[cybermonk]

I think the way animals store fat is different to ours. Look at dogs for example, fat dogs have skinny legs and a big body and belly area. I dont think comparing the strength generated by other animals to the strength generated by humans is valid because animals have a different make up, even though if its only 2% difference. An ant also contradicts the western notion that muscle mass equals strength and so do spiders, some of which can jump 100 times their body's length but yet have very little muscle.

[ZillaBilla]

Hey Cybermonk,

In a sense that is sort of what I mean. The general human way of building strength through building muscle (working out) is not that effective, and animals do this naturally much better than us. Who is to say that we cant do the same, I think that is what IMA’s do.

I don’t really see the point of comparing us with dogs. They are a completely different sort of mammal than apes, though I am sure many principals are repeated in the structure of both apes and canines.

But with regards to insects, this does not apply at all. They live under completely different physical rules than mammals, primates especially. In other words the ‘Physics’ that effects us effects them much differently due to their size.

I’m not too sure what you mean by ‘animals have a different make up’, I hear they test quite a lot of human make up on animals. Na, really, could you elaborate please?

Cheers..

[cybermonk]

My point about animals' make up is that even if appes are very similar to humans we are still so vastly different that our species cannot reproduce with one another. Muscle composition of appes is also very different than muscle composition of humans, is a matter of different materials not a different way of building (i.e different muscles, not a different way of building strength)

[KungFuGirl]

If you look at the body shape of other primates you will see that they do not have 'six packs', they have belly, and quite large at that, in fact the same sort of shape you get from training abdominal breathing. Another interesting fact is that these primates are a lot stronger and resilient than humans. Chimpanzees share 98% of our DNA, however at the age of seven a chimp is five times stronger than an average adult male, in the sense of how much force the animal can exert per Kg, and this goes up to seven at the age of twelve.


Yeah and chimps also DIE a lot sooner; even in captivity. They're skeletons are also different. Besides you can't just attribute their strenght to having a gut. How do you know their strength doesn't come from genetics? Or the food they eat? etc. You can't just say "Oh look a chimp has a gut like this, obviously that's why it is so strong."



Furthermore when an individual has a six pack, the organs are packed in together, in a relatively small space, amongst other things this can restrict their optimal blood supply.



As a bio major, I can tell you that this is just flat out wrong. Having a six pack won't cause you to have a restricted blood supply to your organs!!! I don't know where you heard that!

[cybermonk]

As a bio major, I can tell you that this is just flat out wrong. Having a six pack won't cause you to have a restricted blood supply to your organs!!! I don't know where you heard that!

My bio knowledge is limited but that is what I thought aswell, a six pack is just a sign of low body fat and developed muscles, I would think this will improve circulation.

[notquitedead]

I know very little about anatomy etc, but from what I've heard six packs are natural. If you had 0% body fat, even without ever having worked out or anything, you could have one. I'm not sure how true it is, but it does make some sense. You breathe 24 hours a day, and you have to fight gravity to do it.

Now, how wrong am I? :Angel:

[YODA]

I know very little about anatomy etc, but from what I've heard six packs are natural. If you had 0% body fat, even without ever having worked out or anything, you could have one. I'm not sure how true it is, but it does make some sense. You breathe 24 hours a day, and you have to fight gravity to do it.

Now, how wrong am I? :Angel:

If you had 0% body fat - you would die!

[YODA]

As a bio major, I can tell you that this is just flat out wrong. Having a six pack won't cause you to have a restricted blood supply to your organs!!! I don't know where you heard that!

He heard it from a fat bloke - obviously :Angel:

[OneDragons]

Just some facts for you all since you seem to 'know' so much about anatomy.

The 'natural' state of a human is not what the media would have you believe. Humans are well known for being called 'the naked ape' but we could equally be called 'the fat ape'. Now Im not talking about homer simpson style obesity which is highly unnatural, but we do have a higher body fat level than our primate siblings. If you are unconvinced and argue lifestyle have a look at a chimp baby and compare to a human one, you cant argue lifestyle there and the human will be fatter.

Secondly muscle structure, there are different types of muscle fibre (I wont go in to detail as it is not necessary) e.g. cardiac muscle is very different to all other muscle. Within a muscle e.g. bicep there are again different types of muscle e.g. fast and slow twitch, ever wondered if there is more to it than body weight and metabolism rate sepparating a 100M sprinter and a marathon runner, well there is. This difference can be seen more promenantly between humans and chimps, they just have different muscle fibres than us.

Lastly one important reason chimps are stronger is they are active all day long, have you ever been grabbed by a manual worker and tried to break their grip? In my bjj class there is this little old guy, quite frail and relatively weak generally but he was a plumber all his life and his grip strength is phenomenal!

[cybermonk]

You argue for and against lifestyle in the same post, what are you saying?

[Fallacio]

He argued for lifestyle in regards to strength and against it in body composition, I think. He sure can correct me and defend himself if I'm off.

But I agree with him even if I am completely uneducated on the matter. Being both active and a good ten or twenty pounds heavier and rounder than most folks, I can't see any fault in what he said.

[Solomon]

wow, nice thread, alot of useful information, i'll be picking this up later

peace:)

[notquitedead]

If you had 0% body fat - you would die!
That was a joke, YODA. ;) I'm just trying to say that if you had very little fat, you would probably have defined abs. Of course, I'm basing this off of stuff I've heard/read, not off of actual research or anything. Basically my point is this:

Breathing + Gravity - Too Many Donuts = Nice abs

[nzric]

If you want to help your taiji belly, do some bagua circle walking as well. The twisting action is great for your whole torso.

Also, try resistance exercise, anything where you need to coordinate the whole body will help your taiji as well, e.g. swimming, climbing, pilates. Don't use any weights.

[Shadowdh]

If you want to help your taiji belly, do some bagua circle walking as well. The twisting action is great for your whole torso.

Also, try resistance exercise, anything where you need to coordinate the whole body will help your taiji as well, e.g. swimming, climbing, pilates. Don't use any weights.

I really disagree with not using weights... I have lifted for about 15 years most of it trying to put weight on and I took up taiji (well partly) because I wanted to balance the weights work on my outer with working on my inner... you could say that the weights are my yang and taiji is my yin... if you put together a good all round program with weights they are as beneficial as any other program... totally agree you cannot compare different species in regards to muscle cross section and strength... some people are leaner than others and some are stronger... some have more fast twitch fibres and others more slow twitch... its pretty much all down to genetics what you get but you can develop this through training... or work...

[ZillaBilla]

Yeah and chimps also DIE a lot sooner; even in captivity. They're skeletons are also different. Besides you can't just attribute their strenght to having a gut. How do you know their strength doesn't come from genetics? Or the food they eat? etc. You can't just say "Oh look a chimp has a gut like this, obviously that's why it is so strong."

As a bio major, I can tell you that this is just flat out wrong. Having a six pack won't cause you to have a restricted blood supply to your organs!!! I don't know where you heard that!

Hey KungFuGirl,

I did not say 'Oh look a chimp has a gut like this, obviously that's why it is so strong', maybe you should read more carefully. I said a Chimp is allot stronger and has a gut, but it seems to me when you think gut, you think fat. A Tai Chi belly, is not fat, it may have fat over it, but it is abdominal muscles with increased muscle mass that can flex out as well as in. In my experience most people can only flex a six pack inwards.

Furthermore, I think, and yes this is my opinion and not a fact, that this abdominal muscle group has a much larger range of movement than most people can use, because they work their abdominals to be tight and immobile, whereas Tai Chi does the opposite, i.e. outward, relaxed and very mobile. It is my assumption that this factor, which from external observation seems to be present in other Primates could be responsible for generating a significant amount of power. I don’t expect anyone without knowledge of how Tai Chi and IMA’s generate power to be able to comprehend why this could be important, if you know nothing about IMA’s and how they work, I will not respect your opinion on this specific matter.

A bio major, congratulations, but Biology and most other sciences are limited to what they have researched, and even then allot of opinions are bias. In fact I would say that Science knows next to nothing about Internal Martial Arts. So Biologists don’t know Tai Chi better, than those who do Tai Chi. Thus, let me reiterate, I said a six pack that is flexed in, and tense due to working out, does not offer the same level of blood flow to the viscera as an abdominal wall that a Tai Chi Belly offers. This is not just my opinion, this is stated by allot of Tai Chi and Qi Gong masters who are more educated in various sciences including biology, than you. So keep your 'flat out wrong' to yourself. Furthermore, when we refer to a Tai Chi Belly, we must also take in to account its other attributes, most importantly Abdominal Breathing. Abdominal Breathing is imperative in Tai Chi, anyone who ignores this, is not doing Tai Chi, and I think the same goes with all IMA’s. Abdominal Breathing uses the diaphragm to draw more air in to the lungs, and at the same time massaging the viscera, this is why such exercise is beneficial to the internal organs. Since you’re a bio major, I would think you should know that massage increases blood flow.

[daftyman]

When we are afraid we tend to tighten our bellies. In taiji we try to relax our bellies. This is all part of trying to attain a 'relaxed' state. This is not the relaxation of a couch potato, but the loose and alive relaxation of a cat.

A way in which we try to relax our bellies is to think about breathing into our bellies. Now, we know that our breath does not actually go there, but the visualisation helps us to expand the belly on the in-breath.

I attended a yoga class where we started with some 'pranayama' (?) exercises, gradually working up to very deep breaths that utilised all the available expansions to allow the lungs to really fill up. Part of that was to visualise the belly expanding. We see this belly expansion in children, when they are out of breath. They have not 'learned' how to keep their belly tense so breath naturally. We are trying to re-learn what we have unlearned.

The media persuades us that the flat 6-pack abs doodah, is the ideal. We are told that this is the way to be. That's fine in a way, but if we keep our belly tense, we are using unnecessary tension. Generally if we relax our belly we won't suddenly become obese, just an inch or so bigger. We don't wonder around keeping our arms tense, or our neck, so why should we keep our belly tense?

Traditional Chinese Medicine believes that a relaxed belly is good for the internal organs. Now, while this may not have been explored fully by western science, this is still beeing advised and TCM is still being used to help with a wide range of medical problems. If they advise me to keep a relaxed belly and western science does not advise against it, then I'll keep my belly relaxed.

As for why so many taiji players have the taiji belly?

Pies are part of the answer. Also if taiji is the only exercise regime that they take part in, then you can see how the stomach muscles are not really used that much. Also it is not the most physical of exercises. But there are things within the practice that can give a greater workout. Cheng Man Ching is said to have put on weight whenever he went to Taiwan, because he did no fencing over there, whilst in his New York studio, he loved to race after the students. I know that after a serious fencing session (by that I mean long duration and not po-faced) I am out of breath and feeling the effect of the higher level of effort required.

I used to have the belly, but since I stopped the pies it has decreased quite a bit! :D

[nzric]

you could say that the weights are my yang and taiji is my yin... if you put together a good all round program with weights they are as beneficial as any other program...
We'll have to agree to disagree. I've read in many interviews (and from speaking to) taiji/IMA masters, that weights are a negative influence on your taiji.

In taiji you're taught whole body coordination. Any muscle mass you build is from "resistance training" against the rest of your body. Your body should be encouraged to develop in its own way - yep, that might not be the aesthetic way (a la six packs and v-shaped torso), but it's the healthiest way.

Weight training by its nature isolates muscle groups. You can try to develop an all-round weight training routine, but it won't be perfect (there are too many muscles in the body to develop a weights program to cover all of them), it won't develop them in the optimal rate (as you'll be relying on a training card instead of your own body) and it won't do much to develop the ligaments/tendons, at least at the same rate.

Also, by influencing some muscles (i.e. pumping them up), you will affect your sensitivity to your own balance, and your fine motor coordination will suffer. This might not be a problem with an external martial art, where the fast muscle contractions of a punch/kick cancel out most problems, but in IMA, where you're relying on motor coordination and whole body force rather than muscle strength, it'll be a negative.

[daftyman]

nzric,
I'm with you there. I was going to a gym and lifting heavy things and putting them down again. I felt it was not having an adverse affect on my taiji, but when I stopped and my teacher found out that I had stopped going, he said:
Good!

I guess it was a hinderance, but I could not see it. Saves me a lot of money in gym fees anyway!

My thinking was: what if you lead a very physical lifestyle? i.e. working in a physical environment, or doing physical things in your spare time (gardening for example, just try digging up an entire garden and tell me that isn't physical!:D). Would this be an obstacleto progress in taiji? I guess they would be more general exercises and not 'focused' ones.

[KungFuGirl]

A bio major, congratulations, but Biology and most other sciences are limited to what they have researched, and even then allot of opinions are bias. In fact I would say that Science knows next to nothing about Internal Martial Arts. So Biologists don’t know Tai Chi better, than those who do Tai Chi. Thus, let me reiterate, I said a six pack that is flexed in, and tense due to working out, does not offer the same level of blood flow to the viscera as an abdominal wall that a Tai Chi Belly offers.

You are so full of it! This is not what you said at all! Nice try! You said, that a six pack restricts blood flow to the organs. You did not say "a flexed in six pack" you did not say a "tense six pack" You just said a six pack. So stop trying to weasel your way out.


This is not just my opinion, this is stated by allot of Tai Chi and Qi Gong masters who are more educated in various sciences including biology, than you. So keep your 'flat out wrong' to yourself.

Sorry, but when someone makes outrageous false scientific claims I'm going to call them on it. But you can continue to try to intimidate if you want...but it won't work.

As well, I never said that Tai Chi did not increase blood flow and I never once claimed to be an expert on Tai Chi. I just said that you were wrong that six packs restrict blood flow to the organs. BECAUSE YOU WERE WRONG. Not my fault you have a problem admitting it. You can continue to try and argue but it's pointless a) because I am oh so obviously right b) you are oh so obviously wrong and c) I am the most stubburn human being on the planet. You don't know what you're up against. However if you want to continue I'm all up for it and I can pull up every circulatory chart in the world to show you that a six pack doesn't hinder blood flow to the organs. It's your call really.


edit: I edited this post to remove the word "liar" as I decided it was too harsh even though his reply to me was rude.

[ZillaBilla]

You are so full of it! This is not what you said at all! Nice try liar! You said, that a six pack restricts blood flow to the organs. You did not say "a flexed in six pack" you did not say a "tense six pack" You just said a six pack. So stop trying to weasel your way out.

Sorry, but when someone makes outrageous scientific claims I'm going to call them on it. But you can continue to try to intimidate me not to...but it won't work.

As well, I never said that Tai Chi did not increase blood flow. I just said that you were wrong that six packs restricted it. BECAUSE YOU WERE WRONG. Not my fault you have a problem admitting it.


I guess you have problems reading and understanding, if you know nothing about Tai Chi and IMA's perhaps this is not the right forum for you. Or maybe you should do some Tai Chi it will help you control you emotions.

In addition you can keep your Biology based circulatory charts, they have little meaning here, but you could study the TCM Qi circulation charts and learn something new.

[ZillaBilla]

I definatelly agree with ya'll - V Rat and Nzric,

When I first started training Tai Chi I was told to stop working out, I did not listen at first, then gave it a shot for a few weeks, I have since sold my weights. In IMA’s we stretch and lengthen the sinews, and make the muscles soft and sensitive. Weight Training your muscles does the exact opposite, the two cannot be combined positively.

[KungFuGirl]

I guess you have problems reading and understanding, if you know nothing about Tai Chi and IMA's perhaps this is not the right forum for you. Or maybe you should do some Tai Chi it will help you control you emotions.


Actually I have taken Tai Chi classes Mr.Knowitall. I just said that I am not an expert because I am not.

Also, you're just upset that I was right and you were wrong. As well, the only reason I acted "emotionally" as you said was because your reply post was insultory. So naturally, it angered me and I acted in kind. What did you expect to happen?

[nzric]

vampyre_rat - I'll always remember something one of my teachers told me. Look at two people in "peak physical condition" - One is a professional body builder and the other one is a lumberjack (yeah yeah, we've all heard the song).

While the body builder will be able to pick up and put down a heavier weight from a static position, who would you say has the most "strength" or "power"?

The lumberjack of course. He'd beat the body builder in a test of endurance, any cardio exercise, any strength test matched with coordination, etc. And it's also a good bet that while the body builder will be getting lower back operations and hernias operated on when he's in his 40s, the lumberjack will be swigging back the whiskey and chopping wood well into his 70s.

[ZillaBilla]

Actually I have taken Tai Chi classes Mr.Knowitall. I just said that I am not an expert because I am not.

Also, you're just upset that I was right and you were wrong. As well, the only reason I acted "emotionally" as you said was because your reply post was insultory. So naturally, it angered me and I acted in kind. What did you expect to happen?

tisk tisk tisk .. need I say more.

[KungFuGirl]

tisk tisk tisk .. need I say more.


Whatever. I'm over this argument now. I'm willing to let bygones be bygones. (if that is how it's spelt which I am pretty sure it is not)

[ZillaBilla]

Whatever. I'm over this argument now. I'm willing to let bygones be bygones. (if that is how it's spelt which I am pretty sure it is not)

I’m glad you’re over it now, have some hot coco, Mommy will tuck you in and you have a nice dream about gnomes and fairies.

[KungFuGirl]

I’m glad you’re over it now, have some hot coco, Mommy will tuck you in and you have a nice dream about gnomes and fairies.


Whatever. :rolleyes: It takes two to tango.

[ZillaBilla]

But it only takes one to invite another to tango.

[Kwajman]

Hello, this is your friendly local moderator joining in. This thread is close to being a bit much on the "attack" scale so lower the tone a bit okay folks. As much as I like a good argument, we watch the personal attacks pretty closely here. :)

[daftyman]

*applause*

[ZillaBilla]

Yes, I think it would be nice to get back to a civilized discussion without interruptions *Borderline personal atack deleted in the interests of world peace :rolleyes: *

Anyways, I would like to raise the topic of which one either 'Tai Chi Belly' or 'Six Pack' is better for defending your body.

I believe the 'Tai Chi Belly' has several advantages.

Firstly at high levels it can be used to not merely take hits but to absorb them, and redirect the force.

Secondly, when expanded, the protection offered is greater as there is a larger barrier between the oncoming force and the internal organs.

Thirdly, the 'Tai Chi Belly' is not only localized at the belly but expands to protect the ribs, solar plexus, lower and middle back. I'm not sure but I think at higher levels the whole of the back can be protected. (this clip may help demonstrate http://www.energyarts.com/shared/library/videogallery/breathemov.html , but its only a side view)

Fourthly, I think a 'Tai Chi Belly' can also absorb much higher amounts of force. The grand master at our school had the front left tire of a 3 ton truck with 28 soldiers on board roll over his abdomen, advanced students/disciples at our school have to go through a similar test but with a pick up truck. I don’t think a 'Six Pack' could handle that.

Finally, As mentioned previously, the internal organs are not compacted together in to a small space, thus encouraging greater blood flow and circulation. Lowers the centre of gravity. Facilitates in absorbing greater amounts of air, encouraging greater health, and power.

[Shadowdh]

Weight training by its nature isolates muscle groups. You can try to develop an all-round weight training routine, but it won't be perfect (there are too many muscles in the body to develop a weights program to cover all of them), it won't develop them in the optimal rate (as you'll be relying on a training card instead of your own body) and it won't do much to develop the ligaments/tendons, at least at the same rate.

Also, by influencing some muscles (i.e. pumping them up), you will affect your sensitivity to your own balance, and your fine motor coordination will suffer. This might not be a problem with an external martial art, where the fast muscle contractions of a punch/kick cancel out most problems, but in IMA, where you're relying on motor coordination and whole body force rather than muscle strength, it'll be a negative.

Yep I will certainly agree to disagree with you there... the way you have described weight training (above) is from a very layman point of view... firstly I should point out I am talking from a free weights point of view and that this particular type of weight training does not isolate muscle groups completely, but will in fact work lots of the other smaller groups around the muscle you are working... eg bench press does not only work chest but also shoulders, triceps, and if you really want to break it down to even the smallest amount of work it generally works the whole body... same with squats (which btw I fully believe has helped me with my stances)... deadlifts are another good all over body ex... there are many of them... the body does indeed have many muscles (216 or so cant remember the exact number) but with a very good program they can generally all be worked to some extent... and how hard you go is up to you... also there is an instinctive way to work outs... so you listen to your body and not just whats written on the sheet in front of you... something I do all the time... weight training does in fact develop ligament and tendon strength, although I agree depending on the program not to the same speed as muscle strength is developed initially, but again you can develop a program to target tendons/ligaments...

I dont really agree with you on the motor coordination point either... especially where free weights are concerned... if youre not coordinated or dont learn coordination then you will injure your self and in fact you really need to fine tune your balance and whole body coordination the more advanced you become in weight lifting... again I will state that one of the reasons I have taken up taiji is for balance... to develop my internal strength along with my external... yin and yang... cant have one with out the other I found out at last...

You also make the comparison with a lumber jack and bber... well I was talking about general weight lifting but... bbers are as healthy as anybody and a good deal healthier than most... its true they train for pretty much one purpose and thats to get big... and strong... but size and symmetry are first and foremost in their line of work... of course you forgot to say the lumber jack will suffer from major joint pain and surgery due to the repetative chopping... arthritis... and back pain due to his work... also a bber may have more power and endurance depending on type of training... you just cant generalise like that... (although I do agree that a lumber jack will beat a bber hands down in a treefelling exercise... I would put the money on the bber in a benchpressing ex...)

VR... you make a good point there... maybe a good topic for discussion... how much work/exercise would be considered detrimental to taiji...??? I mean I have just finished our garden, took me a few weeks with some very physical work, did this hinder my progress... sure gave me back pain and was really only working my back and arms...... with the ethos that isolating a muscle group is detrimental to taiji that means I was doing more harm than good... (of course there is NO WAY I would tell my wife I wont do the garden as it will be affecting my taiji... then I really would be a shadow...:D..)

[Shadowdh]

Re Taiji belly... well I think it is certainly good for breathing and relaxation... and think that the more relaxed we become the more taiji belly we will get... (I must be pretty damned relaxed...lol)... but one thing... the prevalent thing about 6 packs here has been that they must always be tense and in an inwards direction.. that is not true... many bbers today have 6 packs and look pregnant ie they have very relaxed bellys.. due to belly breathing proving its value in exercises like squats and so forth..... (its become a hot topic of debate on bbing forums)... so you can still have a 6 pack as long as the bf (bodyfat) is low enough and still be relaxed to have a taiji belly... also some people have tighter mid sections than others... mine isnt particularly tight but my friend (who has been practicing taiji alot longer than me consequently) has quite a tight midsection... and he breathes from the belly.. go figure...

[ZillaBilla]

When I first started training Tai Chi I was told to stop working out, I did not listen at first, then gave it a shot for a few weeks, I have since sold my weights. In IMA’s we stretch and lengthen the sinews, and make the muscles soft and sensitive. Weight Training your muscles does the exact opposite, the two cannot be combined positively.

Don’t normally quote myself. Anyway, I think that after doing heavy physical activity, Tai Chi and Qi Gong will help your body recover faster and realign any internal structures that may have been displaced by lifting heavy weights. But, constant physical exertion such as required with weight training is detrimental as mentioned above. Another theme you may want to look in to is 'Qi Dispersion', this is caused by the muscles becoming too tense and large, which makes your Qi disperse as opposed to flow, thus preventing you from feeling the subtle energies either wholly or partly, and in turn prevents one from applying Tai Chi principles in action. I’m not saying that you cant weight train and do Tai Chi, but I think that Tai Chi may enhance your weight training, whereas you weight training will hinder your Tai Chi.

I think that if you really want to be a Tai Chi player, you have to decide which is most important to you ‘Tai Chi’ or ‘Weight Training’ I’ve been in the same boat, and went with Tai Chi. As a result I lost two stone in muscle, but have much greater feeling, balance, coordination, energy, speed, perception and various other subtle phenomenon. Just recently I decided to lift some weights to see how much weaker I have gotten, and to my surprise the difference is only about 25%, and I worked out rigorously for a good 3 years, reaching a maximum bench of 110 kg. Generally I think the gains from Tai Chi outweigh the sacrifices by far. Furthermore it is something that you can train well in to old age, but with weight lifting, sooner or later your joints and ligaments are going to start wearing thin, after which your in for a life of pain, I would think.

[ZillaBilla]

Yes, I think it would be nice to get back to a civilized discussion without interruptions *Borderline personal atack deleted in the interests of world peace :rolleyes: *


Yep, I am quoting my own post again..

I assume my comment was deleted by Kwajman, anyway mate I though it was more of a compliment than a personal attack.

[cybermonk]

Theres a lot of different topics being thrown in at the same time here. I would like to say that I have been at the "external" martial arts for a few years and have just recently picked up tai chi on the side. My sifu has a "taji belly" when his shirt is on but when he takes his shirt off you can clearly see a well defined abdominal section, round six packs kind of. Having low percentage of body fat should have no effect on how much you can develop your diaphragm and other muscles. I for one dont see why six packs and having tensed abs are related here either, I always have a six pack, when Im sleeping, when im running, when Im eating, why is there a need to tense it? The same with biceps, quadricepts and all other muscles, they just show.

[ZillaBilla]

Hey Cybermonk,

From my personal experience, when I used to work out, I would always flex my abs inwards during sit-ups. From this I believe my abs were tight even when they were not flexed, in the same way if you work out your biceps, your muscles remain hard long after you stop. Personally this is what I mean when I say having a six pack. In other words the abdominal wall is tense due to constant exercise. But like you say, for a six pack to be visible all you need is less body fat. But what I am trying to demonstrate is that on average a six pack is tense and not very mobile due to post work out tension, additionally from my experience it can only be flexed inwards. Whereas a ‘Tai Ji Belly’, irregardless of whether a six pack can be seen or not, can be flexed in or expanded out, maintains softness, flexibility and a full range of movement if incorporated correctly in to Tai Chi forms.

[cybermonk]

From seeing your post I then cant see the discussion with taiji belly vs six pack if you are able to obtain a taiji belly and a sixpack. I really dont see the use of body fat to generate force, maybe for better impact absorbtion.

[Shadowdh]

Hey Cybermonk,

From my personal experience, when I used to work out, I would always flex my abs inwards during sit-ups. From this I believe my abs were tight even when they were not flexed, in the same way if you work out your biceps, your muscles remain hard long after you stop. Personally this is what I mean when I say having a six pack. In other words the abdominal wall is tense due to constant exercise. But like you say, for a six pack to be visible all you need is less body fat. But what I am trying to demonstrate is that on average a six pack is tense and not very mobile due to post work out tension, additionally from my experience it can only be flexed inwards. Whereas a ‘Tai Ji Belly’, irregardless of whether a six pack can be seen or not, can be flexed in or expanded out, maintains softness, flexibility and a full range of movement if incorporated correctly in to Tai Chi forms.


The muscle may be harder after training it but that is in the main part due to blood flowing into the area... its not necessarily tense... but I do agree with Cybermonk here and think that the misconception is that if you have muscles showing then you must be tense...

[notquitedead]

The media persuades us that the flat 6-pack abs doodah, is the ideal. We are told that this is the way to be. That's fine in a way, but if we keep our belly tense, we are using unnecessary tension. Generally if we relax our belly we won't suddenly become obese, just an inch or so bigger. We don't wonder around keeping our arms tense, or our neck, so why should we keep our belly tense?
Having a six pack doesn't mean you are tensing up your abs. You can have muscle definition (which means you can actually see the muscle, as in a six pack) without 'flexing', it's just there. Like I said, gravity and breathing develop your abdominal muscles. Low body fat will allow you to see it.

[daftyman]

I agree with you, but there are a lot of folk out there who don't get it, so wonder around sucking their gut in. Tensing their belly.

Conversely there are a lot of people who have the six pack and are relaxed. There are those with low body fat, with a naturally occuring 6-pack.

So what I was trying to say was that people tend to try to make themselves look thinner/more tones by sucking their gut in and tensing their belly. Maybe the use of the 6-pack term was not really appropriate.

[ZillaBilla]

Yeah, I think this discussion is sort of irrelevant unless we define exactly what we mean by six pack and tai chi belly.

[Shadowdh]

VR spot on there mate... I laugh when I see that sort of sucked in tense stomach thing...

Zilla... good point...

6 pack... muscles showing in the abdomin area, but not necessarily tense

Taiji Belly, relaxed and free moving

But I think instead of 6 pack we should use tensed belly vs taiji belly... cos in both cases you can have a 6 pack its just better if it was in the taiji belly case... (of course in my case its more like 12 pack.. :D)

[daftyman]

what you REALLY want is a keg! :D

[Shadowdh]

what you REALLY want is a keg! :D


LMAO... :D

[Knight_Errant]

It could also be down to a simple cultural misunderstanding- in preindustrial countries, such as pre-19th century china, having a big belly(within reason) is interpreted as being a sign of being on top of your game, due to the excess fat put on by being a succesful farmer/aristocrat.

[OneDragons]

You argue for and against lifestyle in the same post, what are you saying?

Im simply stating the facts as I see them. Some argue for 'its all lifestyle/training' others argue for 'its just the natural way of things' or 'you are what you are. The simple truth is both sides are not wrong but neither is totally correct.

Look a the actual facts and then balance your view based on them! There are very few things that happen in the biological world (yes Im talking about you!) that is due to just one factor.

[ZillaBilla]

Do you mean your talking to me ?

Na, I know what you mean mate, its not all black and white..

[wutan]

Breathing from the dantien.

In taiji you're taught the correct way to breathe is with your stomach, and not to raise the chest. There's some old chinese saying that says the older you are the higher your breath gets (or something like that).

Breathing from the stomach makes sense from a health pov because you strengthen your stomach muscles, develop more power, and of course get a lot more oxygen. Unfortunately, you also get the big gut.

Of course, as you get older your body settles and everyone naturally develops a pot belly. It just happens to be that while the idols of many other martial arts (with six pack stomachs) are in their early 30s to 40s, many taiji practitioners would never be considered a "master" until they're at least in their 60s.

I suppose you just have to choose - do you want a six pack or do you want to be healthier?

As for getting rid of it.. DON'T change your breathing. You'll never develop real internal power without learning correct breathing. But maybe you could try pilates and core strengthening exercises. Also, training yourself to have correct posture makes it a lot better (e.g. I've taken the back of my chair off and raised my monitor at work so I have to sit up straight when I work on the computer).

Look at the way a baby breathes.
He /She will breath using it's abdomen.

You can see the belly going out on the in breath and in on the outward breath.
It is only through bad experiences,frightening situations (like having to pay the mortgage,not getting a job etc) that we 'forget' how to breath properly.
So in essence we are not learning how to breath using the abdomen, we are trying to remember how to.

Mark.