Weapons?

[Tintin]

Nice and simple this one -

"What are your views on weapons training in Aikido"

In my style (Shodokan - or 'tomiki' for those that still want to use that name), weapons training is minimal, not really appearing in the syllabus until 3rd dan, when there are 26 techiques using various combinations of bokken / jo / unarmed. I personally like weapons work, and when done right they can look stunning for an observer.
From talking and training with instructors in other styles, I realise that weapons take on a far more integral role in, say, Iwama Ryu.

A nice quote I read somewhere went along the lines of:
"We may all climb the mountain along a different path, but when we reach the summit we all look upon the same moon" Or something like that anyway!

So there it is. Weapons in Aikido - Vital element or teaching aid?

[Freeform]

Both, training with weapons can help improve your empty hand work, and its always good knowing how to use something that gives you a bit of distance.

[Silver_no2]

I have to admit that I would like to do a bit more weapons training in class. I think that it helps with your basic hand and foot movements as well as your distances.

Besides, it always makes me laugh when you get strange looks for carrying weapons on the bus!!

[Freeform]

Or in the pub after training.

[waya]

I think weapons training is an important part of any art. Definitely something I wouldn't neglect if given a choice.

Rob

[YODA]

I'd say weapons training in Aikido is a fundemental element in understanding the roots of your art.

Anyone familiar with Chiba Sensei's Jo work?

[Kendo_Cougar]

I dont think Aikido use Weapons...

[Sc0tsg1t]

Bless you fella,

most of the techniques derive from weapons work. Either with a weapon or countering an assailant the techniques learned are bound together. I've found some clubs use a lot of weapon work and others virtually none at all. It will depend on instructor usually. I personally love the katana and bokken work but I'm not so hot on the jo (much prefer the eskrima to be honest :rolleyes: )
so my training tends to reflect that. I do occasionally revert back and attempt some intricate jo work but I'm not that great at it.

I think more aikido clubs should incorporate weapons training at an early stage of the students journey as it aids and complements the empty hand techniques immeasurably.

just my two cents worth

[Joe karate]

From what i know of aikido ( i don't practice it) waopons should be integral. I thought many techniques are based on circular sword movements? So why neglect the root of your art?

[officer_fujita]

Originally posted by Kendo_Cougar
I dont think Aikido use Weapons...

In many (if not all) aikido dojo, weapons training with the bokken/bokuto and/or jo is a part of the curriculum, especially for advanced practitioners.

Although it's a bit unlikely for someone to whip out a bokken in a dark alley to protect themselves, I still think that weapons training should still be included in an aikido dojo's curriculum. It can help improve a practitioner's form and technique, as well as give him more insight about the roots of his martial art.

[Tintin]

Just like in Kung-Fu (I think) where a lot of movement stem from animal movements, in Aikido, a lot of our movements come from wielding a weapon. The weapon is only an extention of yourself anyway. If you consider a bokken or a jo, there are no extra joints involved, just a bit more leverage/striking distance.

The question you have to ask yourself is why do we take our movements from a weapon to open hand?

[Sc0tsg1t]

Just in case I'm reading it wrong chap.

;)

If it isn't then consider that the samurai (or any other practioners) would have been very well versed in weapons combat. In the horror that is full scale battle then you have to consider the environmental effects they would have to contend with; the lay of the land, the elements and the blood on the battlefield. Any of these factors could and would attribute to them losing their weapon. The easiest way to counter this is act as if you still have the weapon and move as such with only slight modification. Less pyschological harm and more chance of the technique working.

Lets face it, the basic cuts in aido refer to strikes on the openings amongst armoured opponents. It makes sense for the empty hand techniques to focus on those self same weaknesses.

(told you I rant :o )

[Freeform]

To go off on a complete tangent.......


...... does anybody train with hanbo? I haven't seen any Aikido schools train with this and it is a 'traditional ' weapon.

Why don't we see it much?

Col

p.s I broke Tintins bokken, heeheeheehee! :D

[GrizzlyAdams]

Weapons are integral to Aikido. you must learn fundemental work with the Sword, and more indepth with the jo.

By all means practise tkaing weapons of people - but dont think you'd ever get it done for real. the taking techniques are more about comitting to the entry ( irimi ) and once inside the usefull range of a weapon - and into atemi range - hey presto.

Morihiro Saito taught weapons more so than Honbu/others.

id get hold of his tapes and speak to his students in the uk.

[Sonshu]

A good level with one weapon should cross over with almost any weapon, as many of the footwork etc and timing/awareness/defences are the same.

It is in my view to have some weapon training.

Besides it quality fun!

SONSHU

[Brad Ellin]

"To go off on a complete tangent.......


...... does anybody train with hanbo? I haven't seen any Aikido schools train with this and it is a 'traditional ' weapon."

In Ninjutsu, we train with a hanbo quite a lot. That, the knife and chain are the primary weapons we train with.
Hanbo and jo are my favorite long weapons. So many things lying around that can be used with the same principles applied.

[Sonshu]

So I am pretty handy with the hand-bo, Jo and Bo staff.

Knives are a favorite and pretty good with em.. All the Aikido I have done has only been Katana and Jo as these seem the more traditional weapons for em.

Some knife and impact defences but not really attacks!

SONSHU

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by YODA
I'd say weapons training in Aikido is a fundemental element in understanding the roots of your art.

Indeed. To be more specific, weapon instruction teaches you proper movement for empty-hand aikido. All of the empty-hand techniques come from the weapons (the sword mostly).

The beginning is the best place to begin.

[YODA]

All of the empty-hand techniques come from the weapons (the sword mostly).

Hmmm..... footwork, timing and body movement possibly - but ALL the techniques?

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by YODA
Hmmm..... footwork, timing and body movement possibly - but ALL the techniques?


That's the way I remember it from the John Stevens seminar. For three days we did something with the sword, and then we did the same thing without the sword. It was mind blowing. Maybe there is a basic technique that has no analog in sword fighting, but I can't think of it right now.

[Spike]

If not all the techniques then as near enough as makes no odds. In so far as I understand it. All the moves do look like someone with a weapon, I can`t think of one which doesn`t

[JediMasterChris]

If not all the techniques then as near enough as makes no odds. In so far as I understand it. All the moves do look like someone with a weapon, I can`t think of one which doesn`t


Some of the grappling moves don't resemble weapons. :D

[Sonshu]

:D

I would have said the atemi are the only parts of Aikido that resemble sword cuts as they are mostly shuto based, hence the cutting blades efect.

I find that weapon training is important but there needs to be an element of weapon sparing to just polish things a little more.

SONSHU

[Freeform]

How about Nikkio and Tenchi Nage, how do they relate to weapons?

Col

[Tintin]

Nikkyo is a control against someone making a grab for a sword still sheathed at your belt.

Tenchi nage - the upper hand ('ten') moves in a slight arc over the opponents shoulder, exactly the same as one of the movements from the 3rd set of tegatana doza (sorry for those non-Shodokan typed that probably have no idea what I'm talking about.) All the tegata doza come form sword cuts.

[Sonshu]

However there are much MUCH better defences from a sword grab than Nikkyo.

You could use it but there are other easier defences would you not agree?

SONSHU

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by JediMasterChris
Some of the grappling moves don't resemble weapons. :D

Maybe so, but a whole lot of them do.

Nikyo, sankyo, and kote-gaeshi are defenses against someone grabbing your sword, and you are cutting him at the same time.

Yonkyo is the proper way to hold and cut with a sword.

Sheo-nage is sword cuts against several attackers.

Kaiten-nage is a sequence of cuts with the sword.

The canonical forms of irimi-nage and kokyu-nage come from sword kata. You are moving around the attacker and cutting him.

That there is a good chunk of the basic techniques. My brain overloaded when I saw all this demonstrated. It was "wow" moment.

[Spike]

Some of the grappling moves don't resemble weapons.

Don`t get me started on you! ;)



I would have said the atemi are the only parts of Aikido that resemble sword cuts as they are mostly shuto based, hence the cutting blades efect.

Huh? I got your clip, thanks for that, couldn`t get it to play so I`m gonna go on Kaza and find it myself and then I shall return to discuss this. Since I really have to see what you thikn of as aikido, as it seems to differ very much from my opinion
to be continued dot dot dot

However there are much MUCH better defences from a sword grab than Nikkyo.

I thikn what Martin means is Nikkyo is one of the classic defences from someone grabbing your wrist to stop you drawing your sword in which case a cheeky little nikkyo is one of the easiest and most effective techniques I think

[YODA]

I find a good smack in the face works wonders if someone tries to grab my weapon (fnaar fnaar)

[Freeform]

You wouldn't have that problem if you didn't wear lycra........

.....ooohhheeerrrr! :)

[YODA]

Originally posted by Freeform
You wouldn't have that problem if you didn't wear lycra........

.....ooohhheeerrrr! :)


LOL! That's ok then 'cos I won't be wearing any for a while LOL!

[Sonshu]

I would just draw the sword.

Lots of people mention about not being able to draw a Katana if someone grabs your wrist. You just change the draw!

Its easy and instead of the Nikkyo I would just cut em with the sword!

If you have it use it.

SONSHU

[Freeform]

But I don't, have a Katana that is! ;)

[Sonshu]

The real ones have a scabbard as well!

:D

SONSHU

[Spike]

How do you mean "change the draw"?

[Freeform]

Could I hit them with the scabbard as well? :D

Col

[Spike]

That was Colin "Freeform" Stewart.

Edinburgh`s spokesman for "The Way of Harmony"

[Sonshu]

If only to block with!

When people grab your wrist instead of powering the draw out, if the person is stronger than you, step back and bring the draw out at an angle that is closer to you.

The blade will cut the neck or if you can get back far enough it cuts the offending hand. It is just a natural movement that will alow the draw to come free irrispective of the grab to the sword arm and also as the draw is done it cuts its target - NICE!

SONSHU

[Spike]

If the person is stronger than you, they`ll pin your hand to your stomach, won`t they?

[Sonshu]

Step back into stance and just draw the hand away from you and it works.

Try it!

SONSHU

[Spike]

Won`t they just step forward with you?

[Spike]

We are, that`s why we don`t have to take a step to stop the opponent

Won`t they just step forward with you?

[Sonshu]

Like the ideals of Aikido it is one move, as soon as someone grabs you move and draw.

give it a go as it works, only time it will fail is if you do the move as 2 sections, then the other person can react - or if the person knows you are gonna do it - like any move I guess.

SONSHU

[aikiscotsman]

all i can say on this mater is that in the founders home and dojo in iwama,were he developed what he called aikido or takemusu aiki,in his words +aiki ken+aiki jo +taijutsu=aikido. also the founder would always say in iwama that aikido should be a mix of 70%bukiwaza(weapons) 30%taijutsu. althogh many of osenseis students were not in iwama at all or very little so they never so this .

[Mr Blobby]

"The best sword is the one that remains sheathed" is a well-worn adage, but one which works on several levels and applies especially, I think, to Aikido.

At the most literal level, it means that a swordsman can defeat an opponent with a drawn sword using his sword while it is in the scabbard - and the bokken, or bokuto, is in effect an undrawable sword. A legend recounts Miyamoto Musashi defeating an opponent using a bokken he was carving while the attacker came, and the bokken is a weapon in its own right, not just a 'practice sword.'

At a more sublime level, it means that the best swordsman should not need to draw his sword, but should be able to diffuse a confrontation without violence. Aikido also teaches this - 'the best defence against a knife is a taxi,' as my former sensei used to say.

But it also implies that the best swordsman should be able to confront an armed swordsman unarmed. The Muto-ryu (no sword school) of Kenjitsu was systematised by Tesshu in the 1800s, teaching students eventually how to defend themselves without a sword, by anticipating the attack and entering into it (like Aikido's irimi).

But before one can learn to use no sword, as with so many of the Zen-influenced contradictions of Japanese martial arts, one must be able to use it. This is one of the important historical reasons for studying ken kata in Aikido - not because you are going to face an opponent with a sword nowadays, but because the training in maai (distance), atemi, breathing and irimi movement is integral to empty-handed techniques. The more circular movement is largely related to jo suburi.

[Spike]

"the best defence against a knife is a taxi"

I like that, Kudos to your Sensei

[littlebird]

Check out the video "The staff of Aikido"

Pretty impressive.

Remember friends that this is an imperfect world and our "perfect art" might not suffice.

Sometimes we need a little extra. Perhaps help against multiple attackers or against a weapon or to reach across a distance quickly. Heck there might be a mean dog or two we must neutralize.

Versatility is its own reward.

CROSS TRAIN!