Limb desruction

[Bruce Lee]

I know what Limb destruction is but is there like techniques to it like more than 1 move for a limb destruction??:confused:

[dredleviathan]

In a word Yes. Limb destruction is a concept (you might have heard of "Defanging the Snake"?).

There are many ways of achieving the result.

For instance if you are talking weapons then one of your primary targets will be the hand of your opponent that is holding his weapon. Its an economical way of looking at things i.e. take away his ability to weild a weapon and you possibly take away some of the threat. Obviously you don't have to limit yourself to the hand either as essentially as long as the opponent is incapable of using his weapon you havbe achieved your result. So you can hit the shoulder, the bicpes, the triceps, nerve points, the funny bone (crazy bone in the US I think), the forearm, the wrist, the hand or indiviaul fingers.

If you want an empty hands example... the easiest destruction that I can think of is to raise your elbow into an oncoming punch (called a Secoh, Seko, Siko in some FMAs). You may also wish to use your free hand to guide their punch onto you elbow in order to maximize the damage.

Basically your elbow is likely to be harder than the guys fist, it will hopefully be really painful and discourage any further attack.

Other common limb destructions that I've come across are called Guntings (which I believe means Scissor or scissor motion). This relates to the motion of your attack. For instance against a jab you may parry with your rear hand and simultaneously strike his biceps with an inward motion with your lead hand.

But like I say these are specific techniques of which there are many but "limb destruction" is the concept.

My understanding of this comes from a Filipino slant but I'm sure it appears in other arts also... in different guises.

[dredleviathan]

I also meant to say that the other economical thing about the limb destructions is that you only need a few basics put into various orders to give you a large repetoire.

For example:

The elbow that I mentioned earlier can be vertical up, horizontal, diagonal up, diagonal down. So thats 4 variations already. You can do it with the lead or rear arm. So that's 8.

Add in a few guntings - inward, upward, inside, outside. Do these front and rear hand... now add these to the secohs in combination. Now target different parts of the anatomy...

suddenly you've exceeded my mathematical ability:D

[Bruce Lee]

Are these Limb destructions or interceptions?
A person trys to punch you,you kick is nuckles and it hurts.
Heres another one:
Your opponent kicks you, you block with your knee.

I think the first one isn't a limb destruction.
But thre second one could be I think....
Can somebody answer that question for me?
Thankyou.

[Andy Murray]

LMAO.

You know Bruce, it's almost going to be a shame deleting all your posts :D

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Bruce Lee
Are these Limb destructions or interceptions?
A person trys to punch you,you kick is nuckles and it hurts.
Heres another one:
Your opponent kicks you, you block with your knee.

I think the first one isn't a limb destruction.
But thre second one could be I think....
Can somebody answer that question for me?
Thankyou.

They're both limb destructions ... and interceptions.

Any time you attack the limb, it can be considered a "limb destruction." A lot of "interceptions" are also "limb destructions."

But "interception" goes a lot deeper than that, too. Now, a guy punches, I punch. My punch, though, cuts the line of his punch, deflects his punch, and my fist hits him in the face (all with my single punch). Now, this isn't a "limb destruction" (though might be done that way, too) because I'm not "attacking" the limb. I'm attacking his face, the limb just happens to be in my way. But this is definitely an "interception."

Mike

[Bruce Lee]

Andy Murray
what do you mean by deleting all my post?Are you going to delete it.

[Andy Murray]

A person trys to punch you,you kick is nuckles and it hurts.

Well start making some sense then!

[Bruce Lee]

To me it does make sense It is just the way I think.My mind is not like yours.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Bruce Lee
My mind is not like yours.

---- I think Andy figured that bit out for himself :D

[dredleviathan]

Bruce,

I conclude that your avatar is in fact a real X-ray... I suspect that if you joined a real MA class your class mates could practice Campanology with your head at the same time as training.

I realise that you don't think like the rest of us in that you are an individual but how do you continually manage to side-step what people offer you and completely miss the point?

I'm not entirely sure what a troll is and I'm assuming that it doesn't relate to huge amounts of spikey coloured hair etc but you have to be kidding at the very least?

[stump]

Bruce....

I'm going out on a limb here and hoping your not a ****.

Have you ever tried to kick someones hand when it's travelling towards you very fast i.e. like a real punch..........I don't bleedin' think so. Don't believe me? Try it sometime. Most of what is taught as gunting is impractical but it teaches two important things. 1 is the principle of attacking the opponents weapons and the second related thing is the wide variety of ways this can be done. Most won't work......a few will and are very effective and the ones leviathon described are about the best of them.

You an also use knees adn elbows to destroy or more realistically damage legs and feet when defending against a kick

[pgm316]

How practical is limb destruction. I know the theory of how it works etc. But is it worth doing it in a fight. I wouldn't waste time risking trying to take an arm out, I can imagine it easily getting messy and not working to any great effect.

Taking a leg out would be much more effective with the Thai style kicks to back of knee/calf/ankle. Other than that I'd stick with the regualr targets.

aaahhhh stump said a naughty word! ;)
Everybody only thought it! :D

[pesilat]

Originally posted by pgm316
How practical is limb destruction. I know the theory of how it works etc. But is it worth doing it in a fight. I wouldn't waste time risking trying to take an arm out, I can imagine it easily getting messy and not working to any great effect.

Taking a leg out would be much more effective with the Thai style kicks to back of knee/calf/ankle. Other than that I'd stick with the regualr targets.

aaahhhh stump said a naughty word! ;)
Everybody only thought it! :D

Actually, it should be pointed out (lest anyone get the wrong idea) that "****" is the UK equivalent of "twit" in America. In America, "****" has a MUCH different meaning. I've recently learned this tidbit on another UK heavy forum I'm on.

Now, on to limb destruction, I think limb destruction is very valuable. But it should never be the goal. The limbs are "targets of opportunity." It's a bomber's escort strafing a troop transport while escorting the bombers to a munitions depot.

The best explanation of limb destruction I've ever heard came from a man named Dr. Andre KnutsGraichen of Pentjak Silat USA. He said that each of us has a "personal space." This space as two aspects. One is the non-attacking aspect which is our awareness and positioning.

The other is the attacking aspect. This aspect extends roughly a foot from your body all the way around (though the precise distance will vary from person to person). This space is where you have the most access to leverage and are able to bring the bulk of your large muscle groups into action. When you extend past this zone (and the zone is a little longer for legs than for hands), your strength/leverage starts to decline.

So, take this concept and imagine a box surrounding you about a foot out. Now, if you extend past that box, you run the risk of leaving yourself vulnerable and the possible beneifts of your actions will decline the further you extend past that box. So, you attack anything that enters your box. With this mindset, anytime the person attacks you, he's handing you a gift. He's putting something into your box that you can attack.

So, a guy punches, I attack his fist/arm because it's in my box. That's not a fight finisher. But as I attack it, I also close the distance. Now his head is in my box. Now his head is a good target.

What training this way gives you is the mindset that every single time you touch him, the guy should feel pain. Every time you parry, the guy should feel pain.

Every art that I've been exposed to or trained in has had this philosophy (though it's not always understood as such).

Take Karate, for instance. In the Karate that I trained, we had a saying that "every block is an attack; every attack is a block." This is an expression of the "limb destruction" philosophy.

Mike

[stump]

<<<aaahhhh stump said a naughty word!>>>

What??? Bleedin'????? :)

I meant it in the UK sense...honest guv ;) I could have said see you next tuesday, but I'd never do that. :D

I agree that many limb deestruction guntings are of only theoretical use...there's no way you're going to work some of them....most people (ok...me) won't have the reflexes to pull them off. But the ones where you allow the punch or kick to find your elbow??? Very usable and very efficiant. Think of taking shots on your forearms when you're holding a traditional high handed thai guard and you're got what I mean. The same can be done using knees into kicks....when done right it hurts like hell!!!

[pesilat]

Originally posted by stump
<<<aaahhhh stump said a naughty word!>>>

What??? Bleedin'????? :)

I meant it in the UK sense...honest guv ;) I could have said see you next tuesday, but I'd never do that. :D

I agree that many limb deestruction guntings are of only theoretical use...there's no way you're going to work some of them....most people (ok...me) won't have the reflexes to pull them off. But the ones where you allow the punch or kick to find your elbow??? Very usable and very efficiant. Think of taking shots on your forearms when you're holding a traditional high handed thai guard and you're got what I mean. The same can be done using knees into kicks....when done right it hurts like hell!!!

These destructions become even more reliable when you think of parrying the attack into your elbow/knee (which actually makes it a "gunting" in the strictest since of the word).

A lot of people poo-poo this technique because they think we're trying to "aim our elbow at the oncoming fist." No way. When I explain it this way:

Me: "Can you parry a punch?"
Them: "Yes."
Me: "Can you slap your own elbow?"
Them: "Yes."
Me: "OK. So parry their fist, then slap your elbow. Voila, you've just done an elbow gunting to their fist."

I love the look on their faces after that :)

Mike

[pgm316]

I'm curious what it means in America? I've lost interest in the limb destruction thing.

But, limb destruction has never been a big part of my training apart from the thai style kicks. I can see its benefits with Mike's descriptions. If your out of range to hurt the body, hurt their limbs instead :)

I've trained in various styles of Kung Fu, Hsing I will attack limbs then body as you smash into them, whereas wing chun will aim to deflect limbs with little impact going straight for a body shot. There's arguments for both, I dunno. Its probably a good tool to have, but I don't think it should be something you look for, just take when you get the oportunity.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by pgm316
I'm curious what it means in America? I've lost interest in the limb destruction thing.

Not for polite company. But, in very PC terms, it's a derogatory term for a woman's genetalia.

Mike

[dredleviathan]

Hey then it means the same in the UK too! Its one of those words that we tend to use tonally. If you're calling one of your mates a **** then it tends to be slightly more jovial...


...but then a **** is a **** is a ****. :D

We have a deeply complex vocabulary of profanity in the UK which is added by all the lovely regional variations we have. For instance a few of my Scottish relatives (think aunties and grannies) have been know to make me blush in general conversation :o

By the way Mike nice explantion. As a few of you have pointed out limb destructions or specific limb destructions are weapons of opportunity rather than the final goal. You can train them but they won't be useful in every situation. Like everything else they're just tools not the holy grail of MAs. Recently I've been putting these to use in groundwork - some are very effective as your opponent can't move away quite so quickly.

My intro wass through the empty hands FMA which my instructor calls Panantukan (I don't mean he coined the phrase but this reflects his own lineage). There's a lot of debate as to whether this is an art in itself or just a name made up by money hungry Filipino masters wanting to attract rich western clients. Ohters believe it is a phrase that westerners inflicted on themselves as we love to classify everything down to the n'th degree. Whatever it is I really enjoy learning it as it has great concepts.

In terms of sparring the only ones I've used against the arms successfully are the elbows to the fist, elbows to the arms and the horizontal gunting (although this loses alot of its potential due to the gloves). The vertical gunting used with an outside slip also works but its hard to maintain the connection with a resisting opponent... but I don't want to start the live training debate again... well maybe!

As for legs then of course the Thai style crush is awesome but then we all knew that. I've also managed to pull of a few elbows to legs especially when combined with underhooking an incoming kick (but you have ot be careful or you end up with no training partners or getting your head kicked in for irritating the wrong guy).

You see some boxers using techniques that could be classified as limb destructions also... the name of a good example has slipped my mind for the time being... anyway you see some boxers hitting their opponent's biceps, triceps and shoulders when they're in close. It weakens the arm of course and therefore follows the limb destruction principle but if you walked in to a boxing gym and asked what limb destructions they practiced I'm pretty certain you see a lot of blank looks.

So Stump you're based in Brighton huh? I studied at Sussex Uni oa few years ago and still consider Brighton my spiritual home... as with most people in London I plan to move back one day! Where and what do you train?

[stump]

And a very "spirits" based home it can be!!!!!!! I've been living here for almot 18 months now and still loving it.

I train at Sussex Uni with the Shotokan club....they do Arnis as well...along with our esteemed Supermoderator....eh hi Mel !!!!

Aswell as that I do FMA, Lau Gar, and Vale Tudo in Worthing.... and Kickboxing whenever I can fit it in. Who do you train Stix with?

[johndoch]

Is the guntang when u pak to the inside line and hit the inside of the attackers arm just above the elbow joint?

If it is I always thought of this as a knife fighting technique that aims to cut the tendons on the attackers knife arm.

[stump]

That's one of many john. Many of the guntings are from knife fighting like the one you mentioned. Instead of the knife blade they use the knuckles to do damage. Personally speaking the more effective ones involve you intercepting a punch or kick with a hard part of your body....your knee or elbow for instance....as the ones mentioned above.

It's a principle rather than a technique or group of techniques

[pgm316]

Originally posted by pesilat


Not for polite company. But, in very PC terms, it's a derogatory term for a woman's genetalia.

Mike

Same as uk then! :D

With the guntang you mentioned Mike, was the parry inside or outside and is it the parrying hand which also strikes with the elbow or the opposite arm.

I suppose it doesn't matter how its done exactly with being a pronciple rather than a technique, just want to remember a a few good examples! :)

[johndoch]

Thats interesting stump I didnt realise there were so many variations to the gunting.

I'm still nursing a sore thumb from an elbow interception and that was over a month ago. Our instructor calls it a kali salute when you sort of bring your guard up with your elbow almost pointing forwards.

So what is the definition of a gunting? (hmm, we call it Guntang or is this a different technique?).

[YODA]

Gunting means "Scissors" and describes the general motion.

A more accurate term would be gununting which means "In a scissor motion"

[stump]

Gunting (or guinunting I believe is the correct word) meaning scissors or a scissoring action. Never heard the specific term guntang, but seeing as many of these concepts go on the phoenetic rather than the spelling it's not wise to get too hung up on specifics!

The salute your talking about is also referred to as verticle elbow or some equally descriptive name :)

Guntings can be done hand (or elbow) to any part of the opponents hand or arm provided the target is tender (inside the arm is a treat it can work wonders. Or directing the little bones of teh hand to teh big bone of the elbow!!!!! As Mike said earlier, think parrying your opponents punch into your elbow and hey presto one gunting!!!! :)

It can be done against kicks too either attacking teh foot with the hands or again attacking the incoming kick with the knee or elbow.

Admittedly some stretch the boundary or reality as to what would work...but they are a nice little tool to have in your arsenal. They work on a pychological level too....imagine every time you tried to hit someone you hurt yourself without them actually hitting you back....pour a lot of cold water on your confidence wouldn't it!!!!!!

[johndoch]

Quote "As Mike said earlier, think parrying your opponents punch into your elbow and hey presto one gunting!!!!"

hehe, thats how I knackered my thumb. simple but damn sore when its done to you.

once again cheers for the definition guys.

[dredleviathan]

Johndoch,

In the Filipino MA there isn't really a list of 'knife techniques' and list of 'hand' techniques etc etc.

The reason that principles and concepts are taught is that they are supposed to be interchangeable depending upon what situation that you find yourself in.

Sword = stick=-knife=empty hand

Well that's the theory of course :D

Having said that the deployment of your tools is obviously different.

So much of the empty hands stuff is the same as knife stuff especially. We train angles of attack and your responses will be similar if you have a knife or not. So using these guntings as an example if you have a blade you will try to cut, slash and stab but with no knife you can only strike (i.e. its a blunt object). The moves from knife and empty hand are also directly applicable to other weapons such as the palm stick (and hence things things more likely to be in your hand like a pen or keys).

This is one reason that the FMAs are seen as being so pragmatic. The reason that weapons trainging starts from the get-go is that the concepts are the same and in fact training with weapons is thaught to enhance your empty hands fighiting.

From what I've experienced and heard about the Japanese and Chinese systems they tend to add weapons in at higher level and you have to start to learn new stuff.

"Guntang" sounds like it might be a bit 'street'... thinking Wu Tang etc... one think you find is that there is no consitency of terminology in the FMAs for sure. Elbow = siko, seko, secoh and thats just the romanisation of one Filipino dialect. Is a stick a olisi, a baston (I'm pretty certain its not an Escrima)?

Yoda is the Gununting also the name of a sword that they use in Pekiti?

Oh yeah and these aren't only done to limbs either... you can gunting the head and body too. There are loads... which is why its the concept that's important not the list of techniques. As demo my instructor put a bunch of basic panantukan moves into a list and then had Excel put them into various combinations against various attacks - the list was huge. I think 10 produced a list of over 200 combinations and then he got bored.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by johndoch
Is the guntang when u pak to the inside line and hit the inside of the attackers arm just above the elbow joint?

If it is I always thought of this as a knife fighting technique that aims to cut the tendons on the attackers knife arm.

Yoda and dred have covered this well. But I want to extend what dred said a little.

Sword = stick=-knife=empty hand

At a basic level, the stick can be thought of as a training tool for the sword. And the empty hand can be thought of as a training tool for knife.

But, while using the training tool, you also learn to use it as a weapon.

And, as you progress, you begin to realize that anything you pick up - whether short or long, bladed or blunt, heavy or light - you can use because the concepts and principles of movement and, specifically, movement with a weapon in-hand, have been ingrained into your body. Your body will reflexively find a comfortable way to hold the tool and feel the proper method of deployment. It'll happen in the 100th of a second after you pick up the item.

A common statement made by FMA critics (usually people with no weapon training at all) is, "That's all really cool, but do you carry your stick around with you all the time? It's better to train empty hands because you always have your body."

While there is something to this concept, it overlooks a whole lot of material.

I actually had a guy say that very thing to me this weekend at the Arnold. He was a TKD instructor. His student is very interested in FMA. He got in and competed in our forms and fighting with no prior training or experience. He didn't win anything, but he earned a lot of respect from all of us because he got in there and did it with nothing but pure heart behind him. He's going to come and train with me once his leg heals (injured in the stickfight by a lot of Thai kicks).

Anyway, he and his instructor were talking to me and I wasn't doing anything so I grabbed a stick and an uke and demonstrated a few things like disarms and locks. The instructor said, "That's really cool, but do you carry your sticks around all the time?" -- Note, he said it very politely and not in an insulting manner at all. I grabbed a half-full bottle of Pepsi and did the same material with it that I had done with the stick. Then I explained that the same movements and, more specifically, principles can be applied to anything. Then one of our guys tossed me his baseball cap and I proceeded to beat my uke with that, then locked him up with it, and took him down. I think the instructor was suitably impressed and he may even come train with me. And I didn't even get into the empty hand aspects :)

Anyway, to bring this back on track, everything in the FMA (at least in my experience) is weapon oriented. It all comes from the weapon and goes back to the weapon. With blades, you're targets (whether on limbs or otherwise) are veins/arteries, tendons, ligaments, muscles. With blunt weapons, your targets are nerves, bones, and, of course, choice soft targets. But the motions and target areas remain largely the same.

In the basic "gunting" example, for instance, with a blade, you're targeting the brachial artery that runs through the inside of the upper arm. With a blunt weapon (which includes your fist), you're targeting the brachial nerve which runs through the same area as the brachial artery. So the target area is the same. The movement is the same. Only the effect is different, based on the weapon.

But every limb destruction I've ever seen is like this. The target area is the same. You use the same movements to achieve it. You let the weapon follow its nature when it connects to the target. And then you keep attacking because a limb destruction - short of hamstringing the guy, taking out his knee, or something else to affect mobility - will almost never finish a fight.

Mike

[Solane]

Well the south of England must have a different understanding of the word to the north of England and Scotland, because if you say that up here you would find yourself flat on your back with a broken nose or arrested if you were silly enough to say it to a police officer.
If you mean twit say twit and stay away from words that could land you in hot water.

Bruce Lee I think Andy Murray was saying your sentence has bad grammar i.e. “kick is nuckles”
Should have been “kick his knuckles”

Later all play safe

Solane

[Solane]

Doh Must remeber to read second page before posting :)

[dredleviathan]

Mike,

Thanks for explaining what I meant to say. I was trying to explain this very same idea to someone I am mentoring at the moment just a couple of days ago and judging from her blank face I didn't get the point across. She was saying that stick class was too hard and that she might just do the empty hands - no no no no no... bad beginner...

Sometimes I know what I mean but can't explain it or othertimes I over-explain... anyway this is where this forum is of great value!

[pesilat]

Originally posted by dredleviathan
Mike,

Thanks for explaining what I meant to say. I was trying to explain this very same idea to someone I am mentoring at the moment just a couple of days ago and judging from her blank face I didn't get the point across. She was saying that stick class was too hard and that she might just do the empty hands - no no no no no... bad beginner...

Sometimes I know what I mean but can't explain it or othertimes I over-explain... anyway this is where this forum is of great value!

Glad to be of help :)

Mike

[Bruce Lee]

Is limb destruction part of Jeet Kune Do?

[dredleviathan]

Not just 'empty' but no cup at all..!

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Bruce Lee
Is limb destruction part of Jeet Kune Do?

You need to read through some of the JKD threads!

JKD is more of a philosophy/process than a martial art, you have to train in it and decide yourself if you want limb destruction to be part of YOUR Jeet Kune Do.

[HKD]

i think death has slowed bruce lee's mind. it's a shame
HKD