What Sword?

[pgm316]

After reading this months copy of What Sword? magazine which road tested Samurai, Ninja, Tai Chi and Chinese swords and now I’m a bit confused on which sword I like best! We could try and judge them on technical specifications on how good they’d be, but how important is this really? And anyway, theres good arguments for and against most swords. What I was trying to work out is which sword I think looks best. I’ve got a Chinese broadsword, its quite nice, but not as pretty looking as the Japanese swords or even the Tai Chi sword like the one from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Was wondering what other people thought?

[officer_fujita]

Although I might sound biased since I am a kendoka, I would have to say I appreciate Japanese swords more than their Chinese or European counterparts.

[pesilat]

Personally, I'm kinda partial to the Filipino Barong, but I also like the Kampilan, Pinute, Kris, and Bolo. But, in many ways, it would depend on the job I intended to use it for. Something to hang on a wall? I'd have to go with the Kris, I think they're the most aesthetically pleasing to me. For all around functionality (i.e.: hacking through brush, bush, and flesh equally), I'd go for the Barong.

But, really, if it does the job I need when I need it, I won't complain :)

Mike

[Sweeet]

It was inevitable for somebody to say it, so I might as well be the first... I love Katana's :) They're the most aethetically pleasing to me personally, and definitely the most culturally recognizable. All of the other swords mentioned may be recognized by some people - but if you whip out a Katana, everybody will know that it is a 'ninja sword' :D

I have a fairly nice one, forged in China (ironically) and it's made out of 440s steel.

[Andy Murray]

Nah, forget all that poncy stuff.

Get yourself a real mans sword.

Scottish Claymore. :D

[pgm316]

Its amazing how different the Scottish Claymore is to the Katana, would have been a real battle between speed and power!

Sounds like a nice Katana you have there Sweet! I thought the Ninja sword was slightly different, like a straight bladed and slightly shorter Katana[?]

For the most aethetically pleasing, I'm still tied between the Katana and some of the Tai Chi swords :)

[Spike]

KLINGON BATTLETH!

[Darzeka]

Yeah the Katana was the sword of the Samuri's - the enemy of the early ninjas.

The ninja's used to use a ninjito - mid length, straight, one sided blade.

I'm a fan of Sabers myself and rapiers too but my fav weapon of the bladed variety would be a footman's lance (3 foot of double edged sword on 2 and half feet of handle) or Kama - not really swords but still cool.

[iolair]

For recreational purposes, my favourite is definitely the epée (basically a modern development of the rapier, based on the principles of duelling to first blood).

If neither party is wearing armour, the lighter sword will always win against the heavier sword (presuming both parties are trained) because it is faster and easier to control. On the other hand, you can't get a strong enough blow with a light sword to pierce armour. The sword also needs to have a grip size suited to your hand, and be well balanced.

For aesthetics, I'd agree with Andy on the claymore :D though a crafted Katana (like the one in Highlander) comes a very close second.

http://www.replix.de/schwerter/filmschwerter/highduncan.jpg

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Barstard sword, absolutely lovely weapon.

Hand-and-a-half hilt, can be used either one or two handed depending on the situation, so it is possible to use both sides of the blade. Lot of weight behind it, but not so much that you can't fence to some degree with it.

[johndoch]

The scottish highlanders often fought with the targe (round shield) and dirk (dagger) in one hand and the claymore in the other. It was an effective method of fighting on the battlefield with a line of men fighting in unison. that was until the english discovered that there was a counter. The counter was when the two lines of each army got into close combat the english with bayonets stabbed the man diagonally in front of him rather than fight the guy directly in front. this was possible because the scots used the targe to clear the bayonet in front of them following up with a downwards diagonal strike inwards. when the targe cleared the bayonet all the englishman had to do was push forward and strike the scot that was next to his direct opponent.

Not sure what battle this tactic was first used it may have been Culloden??

[iolair]

http://www.brubakers.com/brubaker/swords/bruceclaymore/robert.jpg

(for those of you that were thinking of something smaller with a basket-style hilt, that's not actually a claymore though sometimes called one. Technically, it's a broadsword. The word "Claymore" is derived from the Gaelic "Claidh-mhor" which means "Great Sword".)

[pgm316]

http://www.bacakungfu.f9.co.uk/swords/swords-09.jpg

GREEN DESTINY

The Tai CHi sword from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon

Green Destiny has a dark olive green pattern on the blade which features dragons, the very spirit of China. The blade flexes through approximately 90 degrees, from centre to tip. Flexible blades are, it seems, a modern trend which is supposed to show one's ch'i skills as the sword is thrusted, making the blade quiver as the energy is passed into the sword itself! However, flexible blades will quiver by themselves if thrusted sharply and this blade type is favoured for demonstration or cometition work.

http://www.bacakungfu.f9.co.uk/swords/swords-10.jpg

I like it! :)

[Solane]

Hi All

Just a small point a lot of traditional Ninjas, used Katanas rather than the ninjito so that they would blend in easier. They would also shorten the katana by a few inches, as this would allow the blade to clear the sheath quicker than their opponent using a traditional length Katana so hopefully making the difference between life and death. Its not what you know or use, but what the other person thinks you know or are using.

Solane

[khafra]

For sheer effectiveness, I'd have to go for the Roman shortsword--ugly, but it sure worked for them. I do like Katanas for the aesthetic effect, as well as their personalities--the characterizations of them as Kami, or spirits, had some good foundation.

My favorite sword that I own, though, is my NCO sword I got in the Marines. If you have to ask, you'll never know :D

[Spike]

Claymore, an effective weapon, for killing oxen

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Solane
Hi All

Just a small point a lot of traditional Ninjas, used Katanas rather than the ninjito so that they would blend in easier. They would also shorten the katana by a few inches, as this would allow the blade to clear the sheath quicker than their opponent using a traditional length Katana so hopefully making the difference between life and death. Its not what you know or use, but what the other person thinks you know or are using.

Solane

I actually heard that the Ninja-To didn't even exist in feudal Japan, that it was a sword and myth created very recently. But I don't remember where I heard that, so take it with a grain of salt.

Mike

[Solane]

Hi Pesilat (Mike)
I have heard something similar as well but not sure where.
The straight bladed single edged sword is easier to make than a katana, Also the ninja did not revere their swords the same way as the samurai as it was just a tool to be used.
I seem to remember seeing a book by Hatsumi with a discussion on the weapons used and when they actually started to be used. I don’t own it my brother does so I will try and find out off him if he knows where he has put it in his new house. :)
Don’t hold your breath though. :)
I will put a post in the Ninjutsu forum as one of the senior Dans may have a better Idea or memory. :)

Solane

[officer_fujita]

Originally posted by pesilat


I actually heard that the Ninja-To didn't even exist in feudal Japan, that it was a sword and myth created very recently. But I don't remember where I heard that, so take it with a grain of salt.

Mike

The ninja sword, along with the notion that bad ninja always wear black as opposed to the good ninja who wears white and disappears in a cloud of smoke, seems to be a product of modern films and manga (boy's comics).

[Mr Heel Hook]

There is no sword better than the Katana. That is something you can ask any historian and he will tell you the same.
Why? because of several reasons really, but to name a few will be fine.

It's strength.
The sharpness of the weapon.
How it was made.

This is something that can be looked up on many different sites I would bet.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
There is no sword better than the Katana. That is something you can ask any historian and he will tell you the same.
Why? because of several reasons really, but to name a few will be fine.

It's strength.
The sharpness of the weapon.
How it was made.

This is something that can be looked up on many different sites I would bet.

Ahh ... but "better" for what?

If I'm chopping through vegetation, then a machete is "better". If I'm fighting someone in full plate mail, then a claymore might be "better."

Every tool has a place where it's the "best" and a place where it's the "worst."

Mike

[Mr Heel Hook]

If you state it like then: Better over all. No sword is stronger, nor sharper, nor weighted better.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
If you state it like then: Better over all. No sword is stronger, nor sharper, nor weighted better.

Scientifically, perhaps. But I've held a well-crafted katana (hand-made in Seiki City) and I didn't like the balance. I'd take a good bolo or barong over it any day.

Mike

[Mr Heel Hook]

That's a whole nother story all togather, my friend.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
That's a whole nother story all togather, my friend.

:) Yup.

And, as I've said before (not sure if I said it in this thread or not), but the absolute "best" weapon, sword or otherwise, is the one you have at hand when you need it. :)

Mike

[Mr Heel Hook]

Yeeeeeeaaaah, but now you are gettin all conjecturing like.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
Yeeeeeeaaaah, but now you are gettin all conjecturing like.

LOL. It's something I do well and I've always been told to play to my strengths ;)

Mike

[Mr Heel Hook]

Heh. Do you practice with any weapons?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
Heh. Do you practice with any weapons?

A little bit ;)

They are the spine of the Filipino martial arts and I'm an instructor in a couple of Filipino MA systems. I also teach some Indonesian Pentjak Silat which is also very weapon oriented.

And I train in a system called Sayoc Kali which is, as the advertisement goes, "all blade all the time."

I regularly train with sticks (of various lengths), swords, knives, whips, flexible weapons (which whips can be, but I enjoy working with clothing).

I also train with improvised weapons (i.e.: anything I can pick up) pretty regularly :)

Mike

[Mr Heel Hook]

I myself trained with Kendo and iaido. Both of which I loved deeeearly.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
I myself trained with Kendo and iaido. Both of which I loved deeeearly.

Cool. I've seen a little Kendo and Iaido. I'm particularly fond of Iaido. The economy of motion is beautiful.

On a sidenote, if you're interested in seeing me play some, I've got a vid clip of me doing some "carenza" (Filipino shadowboxing) with a stick on my website at http://www.impactacademy.com/videos

Mike

[Mr Heel Hook]

Heeeeey, you look sharp, amigo. I have always liked stick fighting. As for Iaido, I tottaly agree with you. I really loved it and it was a damn shame our school closed.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
Heeeeey, you look sharp, amigo. I have always liked stick fighting. As for Iaido, I tottaly agree with you. I really loved it and it was a damn shame our school closed.

:o Thank you.

Yeah, I've never studied Iaido or Kendo but had a friend who got his shodan in both while living in Japan. He was pretty impressive.

Mike

[Mr Heel Hook]

All I have to say is I miss it...

[JediMasterChris]

I did train with a boken and prefered katana but not anymore.

"There is no sword better than the Katana. "


I prefer a Dai-Katana, It is slower but in my opinion it is harder to block and mainly it is longer, but the weak points are the lack of mobility with it, it is harder to swing if you are somewhat weak.:woo:

[Cudgel]

MUST
NOT
KILL
KATANA
FANBOYS




*foams at mouth and gnashes teeth*




Why is thjat every one who know only the katana thinks it is an uber weapon?

It isnt. A katana is no better any other wsel made sword. I like katan's they are quite nifty swords but my faves are longswords and later *******swords. Why? because most long swords adn ******* swords while they were hand and half weapons much like the katana they were longer and lighter. Lighter? you must be thinking. I thought katana's were super light weapons. Well they werent. What about their use against armor? i thought they were crap against armor and good against unarmored targets and the lager euro swords were made all heavey to fight against armor.
Bull longswords first evovled to fight against chain maille and light plate much similar to samurai armor ******* swords were made for fighting against plate but werent made heavier but moir rigidt to bash plate and sword to make an opening for a thrust.

What about the fact taht katans are razor sharp and western swords are just bludgeoning weapon that looks like a sword/
That is more bull. First Katanas arent razor sharp but sharp enough to cut flesh and bone over and over again. Second so are ******* and longswords sharpenogh to cut flesh and bone and chain maille but har enouh that the edge wouldnt get destroyed hiting a metal can over and over again.


IN the end its preference. All swords can be deadly weapons if you can use it. But dont go around saying that katans are some super weapon and that western swords suck. cause it aint true. If I could I go over and spoar with any who thought over wise using my ******* sword or even a light zweihander. I will still have speed and slightly more reach inaddtion to the blade desighned for thrusting.

[JediMasterChris]

Interesting post...I know more than just the katana by the way. :D

[Cudgel]

It just hate it when people go around saying that a katana is such a great weapon when it was in fact a back up weapon. From whne the samurai were soldiers in wars. It was a secondary weapon used after their naginata or no dachi or other such weapon of war.

and knowledge of more than more weapon is good. I know a few realted weapons.

[pgm316]

I'm sure the Samurai would have been first to say the kitana wasn't great. But their skill that made it great. It is just a tool for a job, like you say, different battles need different weopons.

What was the kitana a back up for?

[pgm316]

Sorry I'm not familier with the naginata or no dachi.

[JediMasterChris]

Samurai were generally horsback soldiers I think, so they used different weapons depending on the circumstances. :woo:

[Cudgel]

some samurai were foot men and used naginatas, no dachis and testubos. so it was back up for those. ON horse back they used bows and tachis

[JediMasterChris]

I see.....:o

[officer_fujita]

Originally posted by Cudgel
some samurai were foot men and used naginatas, no dachis and testubos. so it was back up for those. ON horse back they used bows and tachis

To some extent, yes. Until the sengouku jidai (age of warring states), the main weapon of Japan's warrior class was the yumi (bow). The spear was used by most footsoldiers, while the tachi or nodachi was used mainly by cavalry. Very few bushi used the naginata in the battlefield. The naginata was considered as a defensive weapon and was used more by women and sohei. As for the tetsubo, I read it was used more often after the carrying of swords were prohibited (Sokaku Takeda used to carry one), but I know very little of it so I can't say if it was also used widely before that.

But during the Tokugawa shogunate (right after the sengoku) and onwards, the katana did become the primary weapon for most bushi. One of the reasons is the edict proclaimed by the new government imposing a limit on the length of the swords to be carried by the warrior class. Also, bushi found it more practical to use and carry than the tachi or nodachi. Either, or a combination of these, are the reasons why many had their long swords shortened to the length of the katana.

Although many used other weapons besides the katana as their primary weapon (The spear, nodachi, and nagamaki being the most common), a very large number (if not most) used the katana.

;)

I agree that the weapon is only as good as the one who uses it. But if we'll also consider the effort exerted in crafting these weapons, it would be hard for one to find another which could match the katana or nihonto in this aspect. I think this is where its true beauty lies, not only in its ability or capacity as an effective weapon.

:)

[pgm316]

Very interesting, thanks fujita! :)

[officer_fujita]

just sharin' :D

[Cudgel]

thank for your greater knowledge of this aspect of history. *bows respectfully*
I still think that other weapons from different cultures were just as good as katanas. Because ther were still low quality katans manufactured as muntions just as there were some exceptionally made swords in europe or other places.

[totalkayos]

could someone explain to me what the measurement for strength of metal is. i've seen swords/knives measured in rockwell factors? what is it. and when something is 440 steel what is that? what should one look for when buying a functional sword? strengh, composition (steel, carbon steel, etc.)? and help would be greatly appriciated. thanks.

[Cudgel]

the rockwell scale measures hardness of the metal so the harder the metal the longer it holds an edge but it is also more brittle. So what is good Rcokwell for a knife in the mid 50s to low 60s would be terrible for a sword cause it wouldnt beable to withstand the strees of being struck.
Gee what makes a good sword. Sadly I know less about good swordmaking than I do about knives but there are wiser heads out here hopefully they will popup.

[Syd]

Personally I would stick with either a Taiji straight sword or a Dao... Broadsword of which there are a few different shapes, styles and variations. The Broadsword was good enough for huge Chinese armies back in the day's of real ugly combat and it was an accomplished weapon at doing it's deadly work.

At the end of the day if you were really smart you would match the weapon to the circumstance... not the other way around. But since we are just playing favourites, I've named mine.

[1druid1]

Hi, Just my pennys worth. I have the following swords, Katana's, Chinese Broad swords, claymore and even a rapier. I like all swords equaly for their functionality just a different way to use. As a point of note unlike the rapier, the Katana, Claymore and Chinese Broadsword were never designed as Dueling swords and most fights with these swords were over in the first strike. The whole purpose of the withdrawal of the katana was to kill on the first strike and where never designed for prolonged engaments. To me both the Chines Broad Sword and the Clyamore are more of a Swing and hack, more so of the claymore, I mean can you imagine fighting a 10 minute battle with a sword that weighs in excess of 20kg, umm not easy.

[Cudgel]

well i hate top break it you but your 'claymore' is piece of shiney crap no sword would weigh more than *does quick conversion in head* 3kg/ 6 pounds
and where do you get this idead tha fights with these swords would be over in one strike?
All teh weapons ,except teh rapier which I know you said already was a dueling weapon, were not for fighting but for battle and any lethal weapon can kill with one strike but thas in the hands of a skilled warrior versus a significantly less skilled or slower warrior.
a katana <b>was</b> designed for prolonged engagements if it wasnt there wouldnt be too many antique nihonto around still.

[Virtuous]

Originally posted by Cudgel
the rockwell scale measures hardness of the metal so the harder the metal the longer it holds an edge but it is also more brittle. So what is good Rcokwell for a knife in the mid 50s to low 60s would be terrible for a sword cause it wouldnt beable to withstand the strees of being struck.
Gee what makes a good sword. Sadly I know less about good swordmaking than I do about knives but there are wiser heads out here hopefully they will popup.

The ideal katana would have a rating along the hamon(temper line) and the rest of the blade would be a 40.

Im not sure what would be ideal for other blades though.

Id have to imagine pretty soft, probably 40ish. Most of the medival type swords cleaved and pierced, not a lot of cutting.

[47Ronin]

"I actually heard that the Ninja-To didn't even exist in feudal Japan, that it was a sword and myth created very recently. But I don't remember where I heard that, so take it with a grain of salt."

Pesilat- Sword forum international.

"I have a fairly nice one, forged in China (ironically) and it's made out of 440s steel."

Sweet- No offence but you waisted your money for forging 440 steel, you should at least use 1086 because 440 is extremely weak.

" The whole purpose of the withdrawal of the katana was to kill on the first strike and where never designed for prolonged engaments."

1druid1- This is totally not true, the Katana was meant to kill on each strike but not the first strike. They were meant for prolonged egagements I.E battlefields or the Hojo Masamune (passed down to each shogun). You should know things before you post them. Sorry if this comes off rude but there are many BSers on this site that are getting fairly annoying (I.E. IM A NINJA!! ANY OTHER NINJAS?? TALK TO ME!)

[Kanja]

Shogun Katana :D my fav weapon

[Cudgel]

Originally posted by Virtuous
The ideal katana would have a rating along the hamon(temper line) and the rest of the blade would be a 40.

Im not sure what would be ideal for other blades though.

Id have to imagine pretty soft, probably 40ish. Most of the medival type swords cleaved and pierced, not a lot of cutting.

For a through hardened and tempered sword the mid to high 50s.
If its soft it wont keep and edge whilest you bash on metal armor, cut chainmail, cut through leather, horses and peasants. ANd it will bend rather than flex.
What rating for the hamon(which is really a harden line not temper as katana are differentlly hardened not tempered)

Sweet- No offence but you waisted your money for forging 440 steel, you should at least use 1086 because 440 is extremely weak.

weak for what? a sword? probably but then again anything thats not heat treated will be weak my friends carbon steel sword is now in ruins because it wasnt hardened or tempered. the heat treat on a steel more imporatn than the steel itself.
BUt htne again you shouldnt really buy swords or weapons from China or Pakistan unless you like ugly heavey wallhangers.

[ns_oni]

it may not have been called a ninja to, but a straight blade with a crappy tsuba existed..

[Syd]

Druid

Chinese Broadswords when weilded by a skilled technician are very duel appropriate and infact I practice the Yang Shou Hou Broadsword form which has all the fajin and *real* combat applications within it. I do not perform this form with Wushu steel but rather a full weighted broadsword which is damned heavy but as part of our Taiji jiben gong it is essential!

Those who correctly peform Broadsword or any weapon within Yang Taijiquan are directing fajin through the weapon and use the same techniques as those empty handed techniques. When you have the conditioning in the wrists to be able to hold and weild it for various sets you will better understand how powerful and dangerous it is.

It should by no means be thought to be a weapon llimited to one strike, it is limitless within it's paradigm. Yes it is true that the Broadsword is a less delicate kind of weapon than some, but hack and chop are but two of it's energies. The form and work of the Broadsword is far more elegant than just some hacking weapon.

The 13 Broadsword techniques consist of:

1) Hack (Kan)
2) Chop (Duo)
3) Scratch (Hua)
4) Scrape (Gua)
5) Hold Up (Liao)
6) Bind (Zha)
7) Draw Back Diagonally (Lu)
8) Split (Pi)
9) Coil (Chan)
10) Incite (Shan)
11) Obstruct (Lan)
12) Intercept (Jie)
13) Slip (Hua)

Best, Syd

[ns_oni]

kanja, is the handle on the shogun as long as the musashi sword? how much?

[small guy]

rapier or longsword

[Cudgel]

longsword as the standard one handed sopwrd used with a shiel dor a longsword (historical term) as sowrd longerthana one handed sowrd useble with two hands easily or one hand just as well?

[Soete-tsuki]

I'm sorry, but I simply lack any respect for european swordsman aside from classical fencers, and even there they're rather weak compared to say, Jian. Claymores? ******* Swords? Bah! I’ve had plenty of experience with these styles, or at least what’s left of them and I certainly wasn’t impressed. Take an English ******* sword for example and compare it to a Katana:

The ******* sword is made of a single piece of metal. It attempts to strike a balance between holding it’s edge and not snapping in combat. A Katana on the other hand is made of up to 40,000 layers of steel, It’s extremely strong yet flexible, able to hold an edge much better than a European sword due to it’s composite nature, superb at cutting wood, bone, and even metal, and it’s been proven to be able to cut through European platemail (An English ******* sword doesn’t even come close, the armored combatant is bludgeoned to death rather than cut), and finally, no a ******* sword is not lighter than a Katana, a Katana and classical English rapier are about the same weight.

Now onto styles:

I’ve seen various methods of fighting with ******* swords, longswords, claymores, and the like. They utilize a system of eight slashes centering around the wielders torso, a few jabs and crossing blocks. Comparing Kenjutsu to European broadsword is much like comparing Karate to American Boxing. One is an extremely fast, powerful and effective martial art, honed over several hundred years of revision to a nearly perfect fighting system, the other is a slow, brutish, and generally weak “system” that only utilizes the hands and absolutely pathetic blocks that can’t even counter a crescent kick.

As for real sword styles, well, Kenjutsu is the strongest art I’m aware of for military application. In a duel situation without armor it’s much more debatable, being primarily trained in Kenjutsu, I’d tend to favor the Katana, it strikes an excellent balance between range, speed and power. However, I’m also quite fond of the Chinese Jian, though I’m not nearly as skilled with it.

Also, straight bladed Ninja sword was the Ninja-to, the bladed was shorter than the Katana, and straight to allow for easier transportation and concealment, as well as it’s ability to be drawn from the back(It’s hard as hell to draw a Katana from your back). Why the back? Well….ever try climbing a wall if a sword at your waist?

[ns_oni]

katanas weren't designed to be flexible

[Soete-tsuki]

Actually, they are. That's the point of using softer steel. In a situation where the blade would break, it bends. You wont be able to see a Katana bend, but it's flexible enough not to snap.

[47Ronin]

Katana were meant to be flexible for shock. If the blade is to hard it has more of a chance to break where as if it can flex it is soft and absorbs impact. Something like that ( I was reading a bunch of stuff on it tonight):)

[ns_oni]

k just thought u meant the same flexibility as some chinese swords

[Cudgel]

Well it looks some one knows much more than me about my own martial art so I gues I should shut up seeing how some one whos expereice with western swords appears limited to crap repros and not actuall swrods made for fighting, would have more knowledge of how a sworde works.

OH and I guess I should never had thought that anysword could ever come close to katana in awsome godlyness,please forgive me.
INcase you cant tell I am using sarcasm and laying it on as thick as I can, Normally I would be more forgiving and point the un knowledgeable to the proper places of knowledge, but I am so friggen sick of katana fan boys everywhere.
Yes a katana is bad ass weapon
yes a katana is usally made of more one hardness of steel
yes katana is made for cutting flesh and bone

And now for the nos
no a katana cannot cut through metal plate armors
No a b@stardsword can take or keep an edge, it can and cut as well as a katana while having more reach and better thrusting abilty than a katana while being on average LIGHTER than a katana. You see western swords are made with a thinner cross section so the metal in it is spread more along the length than in the cross section.
Adn well Ive seen manuals of ld style longsword training and ive compared them to modern kenjutsu traing and the guess waht the stances are identicle weird huh. who would have thought that Europeans would be smart enough to create their own styles of swordsmanship with identicle guards to that of kenjutsu.

All swords try to strike a balance between edge harness and shock resistance.
Did you know that the Norse created swords in a very similar way to the Japanese ie they made layered swords.
Do you know why the Norse as well as several other early Ironworking Cultures and the Japanese made layered sword?
Its becasue they had crap iron to work with. Yes taht right Japanese swords use very lowgrade iron in the steel they make the layering process is to evenly distibute teh inclusions of crap nad carbon in the metals used.
You dont beleive me? Fien you an either remain in your state or go to this wonderful place www.swordforum.com
It not only has people who study WSA but also JSA and CSA and some other culture as well. you can ask there and find out that Europeans didnt jsut bash about with crowbars in the shape of swords trying to bludgoen one another to death.
or you can go here www.geocities.com/e_ball_woolley/Links.html
I have some wonderful links to other WMA sites aswell some weird stuff I find.

[47Ronin]

No one was saying your stuff was crap dude. You call us "Katana fan boys" but just remember one thing- You study WMA so you enjoy your rapiers and B swords etc etc. We study JMA so we favor Katana and so on. YOU are exactly the same us, you know it, you are in love with the western blades and drool when you get ahold of a new blade and so do we. Just hope you realise we are more alike than you think ;)

[YODA]

Originally posted by Soete-tsuki
Comparing Kenjutsu to European broadsword is much like comparing Karate to American Boxing. One is an extremely fast, powerful and effective martial art, honed over several hundred years of revision to a nearly perfect fighting system, the other is a slow, brutish, and generally weak “system” that only utilizes the hands and absolutely pathetic blocks that can’t even counter a crescent kick.


ROFLMAO :D

[Coyote]

If we're talking about form over function, I would have to say that a good fencing sabre is potentially the s****est weapon out there....

[Soete-tsuki]

Well, I can see argument would get us nowhere. I'd ask you to duel me, but I doubt we live anywhere near each other.

YODA, I've sparred with boxers, they've yet to impress me in any way =/

[Coyote]

Incidentally, just to weigh in, the katana is an awesome weapon, but, Highlander mythology aside, I've never heard of a weapon being folded thousands of times-- after a point, the layering process actually weakens the blade. This is not a slur on the katana. It was and is a superior weapon.

By the same token, claymores, ******* swords, and other mass weapons could be truly devastating in the hands of a skilled warrior. You couldn't count on parrying with a lesser weapon, as the sheer force of the blow could easily disarm you. Additionally, even if the weapon didn't penetrate your armor (and remember, only the extremely wealthy even HAD armor,) it could easily break bones and cause internal injuries. Also, don't forget that western sword arts are as many and varied as asian forms. Even fencing has a variety of forms, including, but not limited to, epee, rapier, and sabre.

In short, don't let yourself get trapped into the idea that, just because a weapon is not the weapon that you study, it must be crap.

[Soete-tsuki]

There are swords on display in Japan, many Masamune come to mind, that have up to around forty thousand folds. Of course, this is rather extreme, and not best for all situations.

Yes, folding weakens the blade. This was done for a reason. The extremely hard metals used for the edge would break easily under impact. The edge was extremely hard, the rest of the blade was much softer, it was a composite. A Katana can stop an Odachi, I don't think It'd have much trouble with a ******* sword.

Certainly there are many surviving styles of both european and japanese two handed swordsmanship, though you'll find one kenjutsu ryu to be almost identical in most ways to another of around the same time peroid, I assume this is true with western swordsmanship as well, and from what I've seen the japanese style is stronger. I guess I just haven't seen a skilled ******* sword or claymore user.
As for the swords themselves, I don't see how you can deny a Katana is sharper, can hold an edge longer, is able to resist more impact without snapping, and is more adept at cutting. The design of a double edged straight bladed european sword is going to make for a better jabbing weapon, but jabs are easy as hell to dodge =/
I've handled well crafted Katana's, and what I believed to be well crafted ******* swords, claymores and longswords and I'm quite sure the Katanas were lighter than the european swords, including the ******* sword. Though of course it depends on the personal preferances of the smith.

[Coyote]

Of course the katana is a lighter sword. It is smaller. I don't think anyone would disagree with your assertion that the Katana is sharper and holds an edge longer. As for the others, that's a bit more questionable. Remember that a mass weapon isn't intended to be purely a cutting weapon. And, yes, you CAN block a claymore with a katana, but you'd probably better not count on doing it more than once, as the impact can shatter the small bones in your wrist if the angle is right. As for lighter swords, many fencing blades are of a similar length to the katana and are, in fact, lighter weapons-- and well balanced, to boot. I refer you once again to any quality sabre. Of course the balance of the weapon is dependent on it being designed for the wielder....

Please don't take this wrong, but even if the edge of the blade is extremely strong, hard, and sharp, a solid impact on the side of the blade by a claymore will leave you holding some very decorative hand weights. Of course the whole argument is irrelevant because the two weapons and styles were never intended to be used against each other. When the Europeans cowed the Japanese, they didn't use swords; they used guns, cannons, and a superior navy.

[Soete-tsuki]

Europe has never won a war against Japan. Russia for instance, has had several conflicts with them, mainly the Russo-Japanese war, which they lost horribly. In WWI the Japanese were actually allied with the U.S, and campaigned against german forces in the pacific, which they easily won, though little was proven by that due to vastly larger Japanese forces. If you're refering to WWII, then that was not europe either, the U.S. was the only major power opposing Japan in the pacific, and this was not due to superior technology, the Japanese had a slight technological lead, and their pilots having had actual experience in the war with China easily outlcassed american pilots in terms of skill. The Japanese army rolled over our initial army in the pacific and held it for quite a while. There was plenty of fighting between european powers as well, Japan won every major encounter of WWII with europeans. Later into the war it was quite close technological and in terms of skill between the U.S. and Japan, they were simply out produced by America. While Japan produced around 52,000 aircarft in the last year of the war, the U.S. produced over 200,000. What's more, the U.S. military had been working hard for the last few years to create an effective counter to the A6M Resien(Zero Fighter). All in all the war was quite close. Japan had a technological lead throughout the war, pilot skill was debatable later in the war, and America had a large production lead. In Feudal times the largely isolationist Japan didn't war with Europe, though skill and technology aside, it still would have been impossible for europe. During the first Mongol invasion of around 1200 AD the Japanese had a collective standing army of around 400,000, 5,000 would have been huge for europe at the time.

[Soete-tsuki]

And yes, I agree a direct impact from large swords such as claymores can be quite damaging to your arm and shoulded during blocks, but Kenjutsu uses very few direct blocks, at least in my ryu, and most others I know of. the aim is to redirect force, not stop it. every time an enemy blade is stopped or redirected the motion is part of a counterattack as well. It's quite a complex and effective chain of actions.

[Soete-tsuki]

Hmmm. A sabre is a cavalry weapon, it's not meant for dueling and it certainly isn't very effective at it. Of course, a sabre CAN be used in a duel, but it's not going to work too well. A rapier on the other hand, would be a good match for a Katana, those wrist based attacks and stopping hits are quite fast =) Would be a very interesting match, the european fencer is certainly faster when it comes to the initial attacks, and has excellent range with jabs, though jabs are rather easy to dodge. Hmmm, very interesting matchup indeed.

[Coyote]

Okay. First of all, study your history a bit closer. It is true that Europe never won a war against Japan-- no war was declared. However, the first contact between Japan and Europe resulted in conflict after several european ambassadors were assassinated. The English took a dim view of this and sent their navy to attack coastal cities in Japan. The result? Japan very quickly said, "Oops! We made a big mistake! Better apologize and give the English every dang thing they want!" Don't believe me? Look it up. Actually, the sabre has been used as a fencing weapon as well as a cavalry weapon. A similar weapon-- virtually indistinguishable for most purposes-- is the cutlass, which was never used as a cavalry weapon. My point about the sabre, which holds true for the epee and the cutlass, as well, is that fencers were not limited to jabs and thrusts-- these weapons were bladed and used a variety of slashing attacks, as well as deflections and redirections. The art of fencing, especially historical fencing, is every bit as much a martial art as that of kenjutsu and iaido.

Now, before you start to think I am a total dolt, I do study both iaido and kenjutsu. They are extremely effective and I have no doubt that a good fighter in kenjutsu would be a good match for a good fencer. The styles are so different, however, it could easily come down to whoever made the first attack. In that case, I would put my money on the iaido master, as the focus of his training is to draw and kill in the same stroke. If, however, the fencer manages to draw first, then odds probably go to him, as he will be able to fight effectively at more ranges, starting at a longer range than the katana fighter.

As for other weapons, before you start making assumptions about how effective your katana is going to be against any other weapon, bear in mind how a competent and effective fighter uses the weapon. Your basic katana fighter has to close with his opponent the same as anyone else. If he's on foot, this means that your Scotsman gets at least one, possibly two good swings before katana-guy can even get close enough to attack. Those few extra inches can mean the difference between life and death.

[Cudgel]

Well first of all I am sorry if it seems I have a problem with all who love the nifty sowrd known as a katana. I dont, I hate those who think it is the BESTEST weapon around BETTERER than anything else.

Now to start refuting stuff.

THere is difference between folding the blade and the number of layers in it. you can fold the blade only a few times and end up with several hundred layers as each time you fold the steel the layer will double. So you can have blade taht has a thousand layers without being folded a thousand times. Becasuse as you forge steel it burns off in the fire. I know this casue I do metalwork.

YOu cannot call large western sword mass weapons casue that would imply great mass like an axe or a mace.
This is what a ******* sword is taken from <i>Medieval Swordsmanship Illustrated Methods and Techniques</i> BY Jhn Clements
These are exerpts from the section on *******swords
"Later in the mid-1400s a form of long-sword with specially made grips for one or both hands(a "hand-and-a-half" sword) became known as a ******* sword. This may because it was neither a true one handed sword or a greatsword/ twohanded one and thus not a member of either "family"...........*******swrod varied, and they might either a flat blade or a narrow hexagonal blade for fighting plate armor. Some were intended more for cutting and others were better for thrusting. Blade length were typically that of longswords, at 40 to 48 inches. At 3 to 3 1/2 pounds, they m,ight be slightly heaiver than longswrods with simple crossguard"
Here are excerpts form the other entries on swords in it

"THe typical Medieval sword was desighned for onehanded use and fighting with a sheild. Lenths varied from 35 to 43 inches long, with roughly 5 to 8 inches of this being hilt. THe average weight was between 2 and 3 1/2 pounds"

"Longswords, warswords, or great swords are characterisedby having <i>both</i> a long grip <i>and</i> a long blade.....We know that at the time they did distinguish war-swords and great-swords from 'stanadard' sowrd in general, but long-swords were really just those larger versionsof typical one-handedswords, except with stouter blades.......Long-sword blade lengths ranged from approximatly 40 to 48 inches long, with roughly 7 to 9 inches of this being hilt. Average weight could be from 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 pounds"

I have more on the great sowds and rennisance two-handed sword, but i hate typing out stuff from a book.

Thias is on the edge of a medieval sword
"A Medieval sword's edge is more like taht of a "chisel" than that of a modern butcher knife. On a blade of softer temper, an edge willl not usally "bite" (cut into) mail armor or even thick leather. And edge can be very sharp but still not be be hard enough. THe blade has to be well temperd and the edge kept properly polished."

ON the toughness of a MEdieval sword
"Although hey are obviously designed not to, all swords <i> can </i> break.....If hit exceptionally hard on the flat, a sword can bend too far and simply snap....Since many, if not most, blades after 900 A.D. were made by welding a sandwich of plain (softer) iron between tow steel skins, there would be a minute seem down the center edge. This seam could cause a blkade to break if the edge became to damaged. (Commemt: isnt there a style of making a Japanese sword that involved a similar process)...A good blade should be able to repeatedly flex out of line at least 3 inches and return perfectly. Viking blades were known to flex 6 inches or more."

On the Handleing of a sword
"A blade must be light an agile so that it can easily change directions, reverse momentum, and quickly recover from a strike or parry. A light, strong blade can simply out fight a heavier, slower one."
Duh

And why cant a calvary sword be used for dueling?
THe katana was a calvary sword. So by your staement that mean a katana wouldnt make a good dueling sword.
I know duels wee fought with calvary sabres.
Duesl were also fought with spears, pollaexs and towhanded swords. Any weapon can be used in a duel.

Please don't take this wrong, but even if the edge of the blade is extremely strong, hard, and sharp, a solid impact on the side of the blade by a claymore will leave you holding some very decorative hand weights. Of course the whole argument is irrelevant because the two weapons and styles were never intended to be used against each other. When the Europeans cowed the Japanese, they didn't use swords; they used guns, cannons, and a superior navy.
Ands this ture I ahve <i> heard</i> of street fights beteen saliors and samurai but taht jsut heresay I ahvent found any historical references.

Certainly there are many surviving styles of both european and japanese two handed swordsmanship, though you'll find one kenjutsu ryu to be almost identical in most ways to another of around the same time peroid, I assume this is true with western swordsmanship as well, and from what I've seen the japanese style is stronger. I guess I just haven't seen a skilled ******* sword or claymore user.

And that may be the problem there arnt too many good school sin existance so you might just be seeing fools who think they can fight. Ive seen some epoepl who are way beyond me right now and well seeing steel move that fast is scary and it was moving at maybe quarter speed.


A rapier was made to counter late cut and thrust swords and it wasnt until much later that they were used against eachother.

Epees, fencing sabres and foils arent weapons they are traing tools. if was attacked by some one with a foil I would laugh and snatch it from his hands. THe same as with afencing sabre. THe epee is slightly more dngerous as it is rigid but its still not sharp.
THe weapon the eppe and foil were used to teache was dangerous, the small sword. It was stil sharp even though not usd to muchfor cutting.

Is there anything else I need to say?

Oh yeah I said it earlier. I dont hate prcticioners of JSA as most of most of them are just swordnuts, I hate KAtana fanboys. There is difference.

[Coyote]

Hey, Cudgel

I yield to someone with superior knowledge. I have seen combat versions or both the sabre and the epee, however. I suspect it has more to do with people deciding to take the training tools out of the classroom and into the real world.

My original post, however, was in answer to the question of what is the best looking sword-- I still say the really fancy sabres kick butt.
If you'll check, my comment on mass weapons had more to do with the fact that large, heavy-bladed weapons (and most of the B-swords I've handled have fallen into this category-- maybe they should be classified as 2-hand swords with a 1-hand option?) generate a greater striking force when properly wielded. That's what they're intended to do.

I've never heard any verifiable stories of conflict between western and japanese swordsmen. Doesn't mean there aren't any, only that I'm not aware of them. The wee history lesson I did mention, however, is fairly easy to verify.

[Cudgel]

well they are both light longswords taht are made to be used one handed with the option of two hands and there are heavier ones made for two hand with the opiotn of using with one hand like if you got injure in one arm. But they still arnt mas weapons although some were designed to be tough enough to bash into plate and break bones through concussive force but they are also made to thrust though plate. BNut a sowd is nto usally the first choice against heavier armor hammers were and the most godly weapon the pollaxe.
But I would rather have a side sword ie a cut and thrust one hander for selfdefense a longsword is to long to draw quickly.

A combat epee is proabably a smallsword.


I dont have superior knowledge I jsut have lots of books and time.

[Coyote]

I meant superior to mine. :)

I know quite a bit about swords and sword styles, and I am fairly certain of the accuracy of most of my knowledge, because I do take the time to check what people tell me and what I read. Even so, your experience with actually working with metal supercedes my knowledge which comes just about entirely from reading. Doesn't bother me a bit.

As for the rest, I suspect that what we're really disagreeing about comes down to a difference of intent (your posts) vs. ability (my posts.) You've been saying that B-Swords and 2-Hand Swords were not intended to be used as mass weapons. I've been indicating that, while they were not exclusively mass weapons, they were sometimes used in that manner-- and quite effectively, too.

And, yes, I know that the hammer and poleaxe-- and occasionally other long-handled can-openers-- were the preferred methods of peeling an armored foe. The thing is, swords have been used effectively against armor, and not exclusively by thrusting. Further, just as in Japanese MA, Westerners did not limit themselves to attacking with the blade. They also used the hilt, the cross-guard, and, in certain weapons, the scabbard. To practitioners of kenjutsu, this should all sound eerily familiar. :D

My main point has been that JMA and WMA were both complex and effective combat systems. The thing is, they were different-- not better, just different.

[Cudgel]

well gee.....

I had forgoten aobut hammering with the quillions so i guess yeah swords can be mass weapons if you want to use the whol sword. Sometime I forget little thing like that.
I thought you meant the blades themselves were mass weapons. Silly me.
\
And as to my knowledge of metal working. It is greater than a lot of people but its still not up where it should be.

My main point has been that JMA and WMA were both complex and effective combat systems. The thing is, they were different-- not better, just different

well then I see.............ofcourse they are *nods in agreement* If neither were good they wouldnt be here now then would they?
And I happen to like JSA alot but circumstances conspired to introduce me to WSA other wise I woild probably still be a lot more ignorant of medieval blades than I am now. And I plan on learning some JSA in the future.

[RubyMoon]

As I recall, claymores and other oversized swords were originally used to take down mounted soldiers by attacking the legs of their horses. Once a heavily armored opponent was dismounted they would be essentially helpless, easily dispatched with a final thrust of a sword or a whack with a hammer.

The rapier developed alongside gunpowder. Early muskets began to make heavy armor obsolete, and as armor lightened so did the swords. Without armor, speed and accuracy became much more important than penetrating power.

The ninja-to was basically whatever sword did the job. Function was paramount with little or no regard to form. Real ninjas didn't go online and order their stuff from Karate-Mart.com, they improvised with whatever was available.

Katanas, on the other hand, were the elite weapons of the aristocrats. No expense was spared to produce the best, most beautiful sword possible. The samurai who wielded them attributed supernatural qualities to their weapons.

[Rikimaru33]

Yep,
The katana was a long curved blade folded many times and made very strong (not lecturing cuz you prolly already know) but what most people underestimate is the ninja-to. The ninjas used the blades because they were short, meaning they would come out of the sheath faster, straight edged, meaning the blade could run along the back of they're arm and back for easier concealment and it could thrust and cut someones throat easier then a katana. It was also easily concealed in things. When a ninja had to go head to head with a fully trained samurai with only swords, 9/10 times the samurai would whip the ninja unless someone named Kinjo came by (for any of you who saw The Hunted with christopher lambert, best ninja movie, very authentic) but of course it wasn't the best sword. Every sword uses some different style that is countered by something else. So if your getting a sword to use then i would prolly recommend a katana but for decoration go all out and get a sweet @$$ lookin german zweihander type claymore. Really long wide claymore yeah they look cool

[Cudgel]

rapiers evolved for street combat to counter the cut and thrust swords of the late medieval early reneisance. They really werent used for battle.
And while large swords could be used to cut down a horse they were more usd to cut the rider down out of his horse. And to hammer into the the heavier armoer that was being used at the time. in case no one noticed as the swords and other weaposn got bigger the armor got heavier and tougher.
Adn armored wariors would not be helpless if dismounted. Even a full plate armor harness was not hat heavy nore encumbering. Knights were able to leap into their saddles unaided or at least vault up and the war horses were big horses thinks clysdale big they were used as war horses. But in the mid to late medieavl period more and more knights and other heavily armored warriors were fighitng dismounted so they could use two-handed weapons like pollaxes.

Adn if you are loolking for a sword to use get what you know. I know longswords so it would not a good idea from to get a katana now would it. It would be a better idea to get a light longsword or a great-sword somethign i know.

I am reminded of line from a movie
"What is steel compared to the hand that weilds it"
That was from Conan" The Barbarian and Thulsa Doom said it. One of the few good points of that movie. THat and the fact that is shows Conan traing with some kind of katana looking sword but he chooses some funky pseudo Euro fantasy barbarian sword.

[Stolenbjorn]

Originally posted by Mr Heel Hook
If you state it like then: Better over all. No sword is stronger, nor sharper, nor weighted better.

From what "my" swordsmith sais (and he's actually a japanese sword collector as well) the iron ores in Japan contained phosphour, a substance that acording to him made the japaneese swords a bit.. "crisp?!?" (sorry, english is my second language) ..easier to break, than say swords made of european iron. (Even today japan is hugely dependent on metal import from other countries and scrap metal)

[Stolenbjorn]

Originally posted by Soete-tsuki
[B]I'm sorry, but I simply lack any respect for european swordsman aside from classical fencers, and even there they're rather weak compared to say, Jian. Claymores? ******* Swords? Bah! I’ve had plenty of experience with these styles, or at least what’s left of them and I certainly wasn’t impressed. Take an English ******* sword for example and compare it to a Katana:

Now onto styles:



Well, I will respect your martial art, but I want to correct you.

Medieval swords were made of metal with better quality than japanese swords and thy were not made out of one piece of steel (Ever heard of damask?) In fact european swords can be made of 40000layers as well. It's just a question of banging out the metal, fold over, bang out, fold over, bang out, fold over, etc. It was even done in remote Norway by the primitive vikings!!!
(You can actually find the same type of storyies in the norse sagas about fantastically strong swords that could cut ambolts, as you find in Japan -which proves more about the blacksmith's status in those cultures than of the potential of the blades...) The medieval european swords were allso made of several different types of metal; one type for the core, one type for the peripheral parts and one type for the edges -just like katanas.

As for teqnices, you're right. The japanese fightingstyles can trace a direct line bact to the heydays of the Katana, the medieval longswordstyles cannot.

But just because you've seen or perhaps even sparred with some poor ******* that you've beaten to smitherens that only have some fragmented remains of a 600year old manual (like that of Fiore Del Libere, Talhoffer, silva or I-33) to work on mabye even without a teacher - doesn't nessecarily mean that medieval eurpean swordstecniqes were primitive. Two martial tecniqes that have been frequently used in europe that is met with success in the no-rule martial arts tournements is wresteling and boxing, so don't write off simplicity and brute efficiency.

When I see you easternmartialartists dancing around with your toes in the air, I allways think how many years I would have needed to come even close to achive the same thins; as of the unarmed combat presented by 1700 boxing, or fiore del liberes freesylewrestling (it actually have much in common with Tai-chi and aikido) from 1410 seems a much more sound system to me that is a bit fat and weigh 90 kg... That somthing is difficult to do doesn't nessecarily mean that it is practical to do in a real fight.

I think Hollywood have made the myth of the immortally divine perfectionness of the eastern martial arts. I don't want to say anything bad about eastern martial arts, I just think it is a bit overrated compared to other styles; I mean the human body have been the same for roughly 100 000 years, and there is only a limited number of things you can do with your body, so I have problems writing off other cultures in the world. I think martal arts around the world have more that unites them that separates them.

[Stolenbjorn]

Originally posted by Soete-tsuki
Europe has never won a war against Japan. Japan won every major encounter of WWII with europeans. Japan had a technological lead throughout the war, pilot skill was debatable later in the war, and America had a large production lead. In Feudal times the largely isolationist Japan didn't war with Europe, though skill and technology aside, it still would have been impossible for europe. During the first Mongol invasion of around 1200 AD the Japanese had a collective standing army of around 400,000, 5,000 would have been huge for europe at the time.


Probably off topic, but I have to...
You must read up on your history... Russia crushed japan completely in 44 -45 led by general Zukhow (I think it was him) They allso swept over the Kurils with no hard effort. you can say that by then Japan was allready defeated (that was the oppinion in USA , and that Soviet did it only to get better grounds for negotiations after the war) Japanese tanks were totally crap.
If they were superior to europe, why did they try to import jet fighters and material for atomic bombs from Germany?

in 1247 the mongols defeated 40 000 poles and germans alone...
Europe was not the leading nation in the 1200, neither were the japanese, but the Mongols! -The most successfull concuerers apart form GB and today;USA The reason the japanese prais the konsept of Kamikaze is that it was IN THEIR OWN OPPINION The Kamikaze only that saved Japan from invation back in the good ol' 1200's

[Cudgel]

WEll I aa glad some from NOrway could post aoubt the quality of Viking blades

Welcome

[Stolenbjorn]

Allthough I'm from Norway, I don't know particulary much about norwegian / norse vikingswords. There are interesting bits of info from the sagas (mostly written on Iceland in the 11 / 12th century) -conserning swords and their quality, where you have everything from scenes where fighters have to streighten their swords several times during one battle -to the one I've allready mentioned, about the blacksmith (I think he's a Dwarf) that could cut an ambolt with his sword. What I do know, is that the norwegian moars contain iron with good enough qualith that it was exported to Europe from the end of the bronze age and up to the 16th century. There is allso many swordfindings from scandinavia, and several of them is made the "Damask" way. I allso know that imported blades became very fancy in norway during and after the Viking age, but I don't actually know wether that was due to better swords from europe or plain fassion. The Normans were Vikings that was given Normandie in France to stop pestering Paris. They were if not the first so very eary in lengthening the swords (so they could be better used from the horseback on peasants and Saxons...)

To really learn about viking sword qualith, i recomend Swordforum.com, or to loock up in books in libraries.

[starstrife]

in regard to both the european (in fact Damascus,Syria those in Europe could not keep an edge and were quiet prone to breakeage) and Japanese Nihonto(blade)

The Europeans used folded (syria) and non folded blades. The folded blades were the best made short of wootz steel(from India in 2.3kg ingots called cakes) which came in both style. The damscus blade was layered and folded or was wootz steel that had certain impurities in the iron/steel the pattern left after tempering the blade is the impurities. The folding of the steel was the smith trying to match the impurity pattern.

The Japanese took a more intense route from ritual purifications to special robes. the blades them selves are in nine known patterns in blad construction from the most common Maru(weakest) to the Soshu Kitae(Best)
The Maru was just plain folded and tempered the Soshu Kitae was laminated steel a soft center sandwhiched between the hardest steel of the Ha(edge) and Mune(back) which is in turn sandwhich between two medium hardened layers and again sandwhiched between two more extremely hardened outer plates
x xtreme
s soft
m medium

xxx
xmsmx
xmsmx
xmsmx
xmxmx
mxm
x

now as far as the steel was concerned the true damasus steel can and will hold a better edge but in the same shape can not with stand the same stress as Nihonto(Soshu Kitae) blades, but in its own shape is roughly 20% more limber(with stands more stress) where as the Nihonto was not shaped like the damascus forged weapons(mainly the fuller or bloodletter). which makes the blades equal is the tempering.

They each have their strong points(european against armor/shield and the Nihonto against another edge).

they are of equal weight.

the real advantage goes to the european or even the chinese sword because of the double edge(ie more attack options)

as Far as style goes the Europeans placed a lot on shield and shield work where as the Japanese do not(P.S. they preferred the use of dual blades and yes some in europe did also but not much).

so the real and only way to see which is truelly better is to match two swordmasters of each school to see.

The old saying a good offence is the best defence(bosh it is ,not to be there when the blow arrives or have something between you and it)just study your history and you will see that Japan had reason to fear the mainland(invasion)
yet the tsunami's saved them,I believe twice please don't quote me on this.

longsword(p.s. was not called this at the time it is a dramatization of fiction from the present. the greatsword, hand and a half[*******], and the short sword are the names for the types of european swords.

[shootodog]

what the bolo batallions used! (half leafs, tabacs, puting guhits, kalis, barongs, krises, ginuntings)

[seraf]

Personally love katanas. Nothing I have held can compete with the balance and smoothness when working with the katana. Of course it has to be a well made katana, not some cheap copy.

[Anthony Shore]

Its amazing how different the Scottish Claymore is to the Katana, would have been a real battle between speed and power!

Sounds like a nice Katana you have there Sweet! I thought the Ninja sword was slightly different, like a straight bladed and slightly shorter Katana[?]

For the most aethetically pleasing, I'm still tied between the Katana and some of the Tai Chi swords :)


There is no actual historical justification for the "Ninja" straight sword...it is the stuff of movie fantasy and fictions. As for Katana v. Claymore. There is no comparrison. These are two distinctly different weapons with equally distinct styles of use. The claymore was not the "speedy" finesse weapon the Katana is but, in it's own right and used in the manner it was intended and the styles that were devolped for it, it was a fairly nasty weapon in compbat and on the whole, great swords were just as effective as the Katana if used properly in their own styles.

[Anthony Shore]

Claymore, an effective weapon, for killing oxen

Now why would you say such at thing?

[Anthony Shore]

in regard to both the european (in fact Damascus,Syria those in Europe could not keep an edge and were quiet prone to breakeage) and Japanese Nihonto(blade)

Where do you get this information from, please cite a source I can verify.

The Europeans used folded (syria) and non folded blades. The folded blades were the best made short of wootz steel(from India in 2.3kg ingots called cakes) which came in both style. The damscus blade was layered and folded or was wootz steel that had certain impurities in the iron/steel the pattern left after tempering the blade is the impurities. The folding of the steel was the smith trying to match the impurity pattern.

You are somewhat mistaken on this point. Wootz "was" Damascus and what you are calling Damascus was actully called Pattern-Welding. This is a common misconception.

Please see: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html

The Japanese took a more intense route from ritual purifications to special robes. the blades them selves are in nine known patterns in blad construction from the most common Maru(weakest) to the Soshu Kitae(Best)
The Maru was just plain folded and tempered the Soshu Kitae was laminated steel a soft center sandwhiched between the hardest steel of the Ha(edge) and Mune(back) which is in turn sandwhich between two medium hardened layers and again sandwhiched between two more extremely hardened outer plates
x xtreme
s soft
m medium

xxx
xmsmx
xmsmx
xmsmx
xmxmx
mxm
x

now as far as the steel was concerned the true damasus steel can and will hold a better edge but in the same shape can not with stand the same stress as Nihonto(Soshu Kitae) blades, but in its own shape is roughly 20% more limber(with stands more stress) where as the Nihonto was not shaped like the damascus forged weapons(mainly the fuller or bloodletter). which makes the blades equal is the tempering.

---Perhaps this will help a bit:

http://www2.memenet.or.jp/kinugawa/english/sword/sword100.htm

[Cudgel]

Now whie, I may agre withg someof what u said er posted... but I will have to disagree on ur statemnt that a claymor, assuming this is the greatsword not the broadsword,is not a finesse weapon. NOw after spenidng about 2 years working with greatswords, nothing big just mock ups in with my sparring group that are fairly close in weight and balance to what I belive is how they were back in the days, and whil eit does take some muscle to use it greatswords are fairly nimble and quick as long as U let the swrd fight and not fight the sword. And since it is larger and weightier than what all my old sparring group used i had to use a lot more finesse.

And why use a claymore to kill an ox why notuse i duno a gun or a hammer or an axe all would do the job much better.

[Anthony Shore]

Now whie, I may agre withg someof what u said er posted... but I will have to disagree on ur statemnt that a claymor, assuming this is the greatsword not the broadsword,is not a finesse weapon. NOw after spenidng about 2 years working with greatswords, nothing big just mock ups in with my sparring group that are fairly close in weight and balance to what I belive is how they were back in the days, and whil eit does take some muscle to use it greatswords are fairly nimble and quick as long as U let the swrd fight and not fight the sword. And since it is larger and weightier than what all my old sparring group used i had to use a lot more finesse.

And why use a claymore to kill an ox why notuse i duno a gun or a hammer or an axe all would do the job much better.


You misread the statement Cudgel...I said the Claymore was not the "speedy", finesse weapon the Katana is"...not "the claymore is not the speedy, finesse weapon..."and" the Katana is! The emphasis here is on the adjective "speedy".

What I meant by that is simply this, the Claymore, in its own right...is an incredibly deadly tool if used in the way it was meant to be used and in the styles that were adapted and developed for it, and I believe I also said that it was just as effective as the Katana if used properly in said same manners that were again, developed for it.

I was not saying that the Claymore is NOT a finesse weapon, but the Katana is! I was saying that each, in their own right are very deadly and very effective given their own respective styles...What I was aiming at here is, that when it comes down to it, no two ways about it...I'm gonna get where I need to go much faster with a Japanese weapon given the styles that were developed for it, than I will with the Scotty...

Heck man! that was one of the big issues in my research essay on the two handers...do ya think I would backpeddle now?

[Cudgel]

OOPS........
Forgive me for misreading. I must have had a headache or something or been tired when i read your post.

[Anthony Shore]

OOPS........
Forgive me for misreading. I must have had a headache or something or been tired when i read your post.

no worries man...if I say something that needs clarification, I am more than happy to explain..

[Anthony Shore]

OOPS........
Forgive me for misreading. I must have had a headache or something or been tired when i read your post.

Amazingly enough Cudgel, I just re-read an email I had sent to John Clements of the ARMA in which i wrote:

John Clements:

“I understand that you have likely encountered as I have a lot of rubbish claims revolving around Jap blades and ignorant claims re medieval ones, but this article is not the place to address it---or at the least, the paragraph you used does not do so sufficiently yet distract the reader in the process. “

Anthony Shore:

John…this is precisely the entire point of the article…to refute the rubbish claims of Japanese blades and the ignorant claims of Medieval/Renaissance weapons. The point was, assertions have been made that this was a massively heavy weapon when we know it was not, that the Europeans did not possess the capability to make lightweight steel weapons as some folks think that only modern steel manufacturing techniques can do so. That the Japanese were not the only people on the planet to work with techniques that involved multilayered and folded steels and, finally that this was a weapon of finesse and skill, not a big metal club with a point. All of these points I feel I made extremely well with the data I presented, in the format I presented it.

There you have it. The point I was trying to make comparing Japanese and Scottish was simply in regards to how quickly the weapon could be wielded. The japanese blade by virtue of being anywere between 3-5 lbs lighter than the scotty will naturally be the faster blade. Each weapon in it's own right requires a fair bit of "finesse" in handling, but! the fact that the katana is a lighter weapon and used in a different style, enables it to be used to attack at a much faster rate.

Anthony

[Stolenbjorn]

Hmmm, exactly what do you mean by greatswords?
I define a greatsword as somthing bigger than the longsword (at least 1,4m long) If that's what we're discussing (or if claymores were much heavier than italian and german longswords) I can agree that the katana will be the fastest weapon, and frankly I find it very hard to draw similarities between zweihenders/greatswords and the relatively short katanas.
If you're discussing longswords, then I do not agree that the katana nessecarily is any faster (or slower) -only a bit shorter, and with less handprotection :D
Do there exist any combat manuals for greatswords? -I haven't seen any.

[Anthony Shore]

I'm sorry, but I simply lack any respect for european swordsman aside from classical fencers, and even there they're rather weak compared to say, Jian. Claymores? ******* Swords? Bah! I’ve had plenty of experience with these styles, or at least what’s left of them and I certainly wasn’t impressed. Take an English ******* sword for example and compare it to a Katana:

The ******* sword is made of a single piece of metal. It attempts to strike a balance between holding it’s edge and not snapping in combat. A Katana on the other hand is made of up to 40,000 layers of steel, It’s extremely strong yet flexible, able to hold an edge much better than a European sword due to it’s composite nature, superb at cutting wood, bone, and even metal, and it’s been proven to be able to cut through European platemail (An English ******* sword doesn’t even come close, the armored combatant is bludgeoned to death rather than cut), and finally, no a ******* sword is not lighter than a Katana, a Katana and classical English rapier are about the same weight.

Now onto styles:

I’ve seen various methods of fighting with ******* swords, longswords, claymores, and the like. They utilize a system of eight slashes centering around the wielders torso, a few jabs and crossing blocks. Comparing Kenjutsu to European broadsword is much like comparing Karate to American Boxing. One is an extremely fast, powerful and effective martial art, honed over several hundred years of revision to a nearly perfect fighting system, the other is a slow, brutish, and generally weak “system” that only utilizes the hands and absolutely pathetic blocks that can’t even counter a crescent kick.

As for real sword styles, well, Kenjutsu is the strongest art I’m aware of for military application. In a duel situation without armor it’s much more debatable, being primarily trained in Kenjutsu, I’d tend to favor the Katana, it strikes an excellent balance between range, speed and power. However, I’m also quite fond of the Chinese Jian, though I’m not nearly as skilled with it.

Also, straight bladed Ninja sword was the Ninja-to, the bladed was shorter than the Katana, and straight to allow for easier transportation and concealment, as well as it’s ability to be drawn from the back(It’s hard as hell to draw a Katana from your back). Why the back? Well….ever try climbing a wall if a sword at your waist?


Oh gods...here we go with the "my katana is superior to your European sword" debate again...ok, lets nip this in the bud shall we? first off, I believe I discussed the whole "fold forging" thing...not only were the Japanese not the first to be utilizing that technolgy but, the Vikings were doing it a full 200 years prior to the Japanese.

http://www.ejmas.com/jwma/jwmaframe.htm

http://www.vikingsword.com/serpent.html

Second, as has also been discussed, the Europeans did not construct swords that were simply big iron bars with an edge and a point. Firstly, Iron does not hold an edge very well and tends to be very heavy...you attribute the skills of the European smiths as being capable of pounding out rough hewn iron blades when if you look at European weapons production in the middle ages, there were entire towns and villages (yes, I am quoting my own work) whos only industry was production of weapons and armor. Solingen and Passau in Germany, Toledo Spain...

The Vikings were working with Pattern Welded steel in the 6th Century A.D. and before that, the Celts...examples of low grade steel could be found througout Europe as early as 700 years B.C.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html

http://www.galatia.com/~fer/sword/mishina/lecture.html


Now, while we all fully admit that the Japanese blades are excellent cutting tools, there are limitations to their durability and cutting power...as I said, very good at "slicing" through flesh...will meet moderate resistance cutting thorugh bone and will find a fair degree of difficulty cutting through Japanese armor and damn near impossible without damaging the blade when trying to cut through European armor. The Japanese blades are not magic, they are steel and will behave as such.

You cannot compare European combat technique and blades with Japanese...these are distinctly different weapons with equally distinct styles of use, hell! you cant even compare European weapons with themselves....the Broadsword is used in a different manner than the greatsword, is used differently than the bastard sword, is used diffenently than the sabre, the rapier, the Russian Kidjal <SP?>. This does not make Japanese blades or styles any more superior to European styles and blades...

and as far as construction goes...again, the Katana is very good at what it does and for what it was designed to do...Slashing "draw" cuts. The fold forge method is hardly unique to Japan and as stated, other cultures were doing similar things hundreds of years before Japan began using this method. Most European blades were designed for cutting and/or thrusting but not the same way the Japanes blades were except for those with curved blades...very good for "slashing". If you are to compare weapons, compare them within their own class, not with a weapon that is ethnographically and geographically distinct from the one you are comparing it to.

I am not entirely certain where you get your information that the greatsword and the like (including the claymore, longsword, etc...) were nothing more than bludgeons with points but, you have been grossly misinformed.

Please refer to an article by Hank Reinhardt on this subject.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/nobest.htm

Also:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/hype.htm

[Anthony Shore]

Hmmm, exactly what do you mean by greatswords?
I define a greatsword as somthing bigger than the longsword (at least 1,4m long) If that's what we're discussing (or if claymores were much heavier than italian and german longswords) I can agree that the katana will be the fastest weapon, and frankly I find it very hard to draw similarities between zweihenders/greatswords and the relatively short katanas.
If you're discussing longswords, then I do not agree that the katana nessecarily is any faster (or slower) -only a bit shorter, and with less handprotection :D
Do there exist any combat manuals for greatswords? -I haven't seen any.

Stolenbjorn,

I'm not sure if that was meant for me but I will comment anyway. By Greatswords I meant the class for sword applied to the Zweihander and similar...larger "two handed" weapons. The only similarities involved were in respects to the concept of "weapons of finesse"...as stated, each weapon, in its own right, holds a certain amount of "finesse" to wield...the greatsword class of weapon was NOT NOT NOT a lumbering bludgeon with a point that it is so frequently ascribed...these people come off as thinking that ONLY the Japanese could produce blades of ANY intrinsic value or merrit. This is simply NOT true. What is true is that the Japanese were isolated from pretty much the rest of the world and did not have the "arms race" that was happening in the European countries...the Japanese did not have 3-4 dozen countries influencing each other in regards to culture, styles of fighting, closely guarded methods of bladesmithing that were passed on from master to apprencitce in secret. What the Japanese had was a culture with very little outside influence with weapons that were crafted by the religious sects and were fairly well documented.

As for greatsword manuals...the Royal Armourers at Leeds said in a peice done for the History Channel that they had found a "greatsword" manual in their vaults and had choreographed a fight sequence from the plate by plate "positions" in the book. You may want to talk to them about it. Other than that, I really cant say as I am not really up on my fight manuals these days.

[Cudgel]

ONe the topic of greatsword manuals I was under the impression that the German Fechter Bucher were for larger twohanded longswords...one of the reaons ive been studying it. ANd even if not it woulndt be taht hard to apply the various diferent Manulas to Zweihander use, u can use spear, pollaxe and longswords techniques qith m which are strangly enough very simlar to one another espcially halfswording with longsword and the use of the pollaxe.
And I pesonally class anything thing that is ,less than chest high as a longsword and less than hip high a single handed sword.

[Anthony Shore]

ONe the topic of greatsword manuals I was under the impression that the German Fechter Bucher were for larger twohanded longswords...one of the reaons ive been studying it. ANd even if not it woulndt be taht hard to apply the various diferent Manulas to Zweihander use, u can use spear, pollaxe and longswords techniques qith m which are strangly enough very simlar to one another espcially halfswording with longsword and the use of the pollaxe.
And I pesonally class anything thing that is ,less than chest high as a longsword and less than hip high a single handed sword.

Here is an absolutely smashing article on "Oakeschott Typology"

http://www.ejmas.com/jwma/jwmaframe.htm

[Anthony Shore]

I found this in a simple web search that "anyone" could have found...including those bent on believing the superiority of the Japanese swordsmiths and their product and that the Europeans were incapable of producing anything more complex than a sharpened bar of iron.

Before you make such statements...be sure you have done the homework and have not simply gone on "what you heard from your sensei" or what "seems right" or from a biased "only the Japanese could do it" point of view.

and if you have ever seen any pix from the Landeszeughaus in Graz Austria...you would not make such statements at all.


http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/armor/atli/index.htm

[Cudgel]

Good now I know where to look up Oakeschott Typology.
Lol You said smashing.....

and Ive read that article on Anvilfire many a time.

[Bellator Manus]

Later into the war it was quite close technological and in terms of skill between the U.S. and Japan, they were simply out produced by America. While Japan produced around 52,000 aircarft in the last year of the war, the U.S. produced over 200,000. What's more, the U.S. military had been working hard for the last few years to create an effective counter to the A6M Resien(Zero Fighter). All in all the war was quite close. Japan had a technological lead throughout the war, pilot skill was debatable later in the war, and America had a large production lead. .Umm, no. The US always had a technological advantage over the Japanese. We sold them the Zero for goodness sakes. The P-38 and other such craft had ratios of 3 to 1 (I think that's the Corrsair's ratio though). Anyways. I think we might have been even in our naval ships, but I stess the word might. The Japanese had constucted larger ships then were allowed (some consession everyone agreed to).

To answer the original question, I like Zweihanders. My favorite is a Naganata or Doa though they aren't actually swords.

[Anthony Shore]

Actually, they are. That's the point of using softer steel. In a situation where the blade would break, it bends. You wont be able to see a Katana bend, but it's flexible enough not to snap.

You confuse flexibility with resiliencey...The outer shell of the Katana is a higher carbon content and is very stiff...that would present a problem with the blade being brittle and breakable...the outer shell is wrapped around a softer inner core of high grade iron or lower grade steel and this gives the blade "resiliency" not flexibilty...Flexibility would mean you would be able to "bend" the blade of the Katana to a certain point and it would return to true. Resiliency is the ability of the blade to absorb shock without breaking.

If you think you can bend a 1/4 inch thick at the spine Katana and have it return to true, even a slight bend...please do try and let me know the results. I would be most impressed if you were able to do it.

Now, on to comparing Katanas with Greatsword and other of it's class...why would you do such a thing...that's sort of like comparing a cadillac with a porche and stating that the porche is superior to the cadillac because it has better handling in corners at 60 miles per hour...there is no comparrison to the Kat and any European sword let alone the European greatsword class of weapon...each has it's own distinctive style and use...the Greatswords were not designed for "slashing" draw cuts, they were designed for defending againts pole arms and for dealing with plate armour...the greatsword blades were stiffer than their smaller cousins as they were designed for "thrusting" as well as cutting. Greatswords are excellent for disabling a line of pikemen as well as for defending relatively enclosed areas like archways and castle gates because of the versatility of the way the weapon can be used...I would like to see you use a Katana to make an attack with the blade, invert the weapon and smash the the pommel, choke up on the ricasso and use as a staff and in turn as a spear...very versatile weapons these were..can your beloved Katana do all that? NO!

your Katana was designed to make very good slashing draw cuts and that was about it. now, for the Ninja-to! There is no, I repeat, NO! historical evidence to support the straight bladed Ninja sword...if you can produce such, please do, I will be willing to be corrected if you can find information from at least 2 reputable sources.

[Anthony Shore]

Well, I can see argument would get us nowhere. I'd ask you to duel me, but I doubt we live anywhere near each other.

YODA, I've sparred with boxers, they've yet to impress me in any way =/

Question...you've sparred with boxers! what exactly were you doing? were you boxing with them? or where you letting them use boxing technique which involves connection only with the hands and footwork for positioning while you used your feet to kick them? I'm pretty sure if you were limited to interaction with a boxer on their terms...i.e. Marquis of Queensbury rules boxing...i'm pretty sure you would get your butt whopped big time. Sparring with boxers who "only" know boxing and fighting them with an art where you are allowed to kick is not much of a comparrison.

If you want to fight with boxers...box with them. if you want to fight with "kick" boxers...then you have something to say about your art vs. their art. And anyone who gives up on their argument by "challenging a duel" show a very large amount of immaturity.

[Anthony Shore]

Here is an absolutely smashing article on "Oakeschott Typology"

http://www.ejmas.com/jwma/jwmaframe.htm

The actual article is listed in the Archives under Vol. 2000.

[Cudgel]

yes giving directions to is wise it tooke me a few inutes to find it the otehr day.

[Anthony Shore]

The ninja sword, along with the notion that bad ninja always wear black as opposed to the good ninja who wears white and disappears in a cloud of smoke, seems to be a product of modern films and manga (boy's comics).

This would be especially true since in Japanese culture, white is the color of death.

here is a really good site for all things relating to the Japanese sword, including some information on the "mythical" Ninjato sword...which seems to be generally regarded as a product of Hollywood fiction and has no real basis in history.

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

[Anthony Shore]

I'm sorry, but I simply lack any respect for european swordsman aside from classical fencers, and even there they're rather weak compared to say, Jian. Claymores? ******* Swords? Bah! I’ve had plenty of experience with these styles, or at least what’s left of them and I certainly wasn’t impressed. Take an English ******* sword for example and compare it to a Katana:


--->Comparing classical fencers...presumabley using the Rapier, with the Chinese "Jian"? which is BTW in the greatsword class of weapon. Hmmm, plenty of experience with styles designed for the greatsword...really? Who was your instructor? Did he/she have enough experience with WMA or did you simply look something up in a borrowed copy Talhoffers Fechtbuch and try to imitate what you saw...perhaps you learned from "Conan"? whos movements were based on katas designed for the Katana.

The ******* sword is made of a single piece of metal. It attempts to strike a balance between holding it’s edge and not snapping in combat. A Katana on the other hand is made of up to 40,000 layers of steel, It’s extremely strong yet flexible, able to hold an edge much better than a European sword due to it’s composite nature, superb at cutting wood, bone, and even metal, and it’s been proven to be able to cut through European platemail (An English ******* sword doesn’t even come close, the armored combatant is bludgeoned to death rather than cut), and finally, no a ******* sword is not lighter than a Katana, a Katana and classical English rapier are about the same weight.

--->I personally would investigate that statement if I were you...oh, but I'm not so I will investigate it myself anyway. Again with the Japanese fold forge vs. European methods...please look up the history of Pattern-Welding, I believe I gave you enough links for that already. It was rather sarcastically pointed out on another board when combatting similar comments you have made concerning European sword technologies, what you are implying is the Europeans were simply not smart enough to produce quality steel...does nearly 10,000 years of warfare between the various cultures account for nothing? If a combatant were simply to be bludgeoned to death, there are a varitey of tools that are better suited to the task suchas warhammers, maces, flails, axes, etc...all of which would be cheaper to repair and harder to damage...the physics of the European blades were such that they were not designed for "smashing" but for cutting...a sharp blade does this better than a dull one and the Euro blades were MORE than capable of sustaining an edge for more than a single blow.

--->Katana cutting through Plate mail? please, oh please...I beg of you to prove that...please cite me some material, ANY material of "historical" evidence that a Katana can cleave through plate mail and survive...The Steel in Plate mail, while not as high a carbon content as the edge of the Katana, is still fairly hard not to mention thick enough to stop a Katana dead in it's tracks and will more than likely chip and shatter the edge of the Kat which is a very high carbon content and somewhat brittle...good for holding an edge and for cutting flesh...very bad for cleaving through armor...Then there is the problem of "mass displacement"...a Katana is a sharp beveled blade that must "push aside" a great deal of material due to the thickness of the blade, I doubt sincerely that it would stand up to anthing harder than Laquered leather let alone a casehardened steel breast plate.
Now onto styles:

I’ve seen various methods of fighting with ******* swords, longswords, claymores, and the like. They utilize a system of eight slashes centering around the wielders torso, a few jabs and crossing blocks. Comparing Kenjutsu to European broadsword is much like comparing Karate to American Boxing. One is an extremely fast, powerful and effective martial art, honed over several hundred years of revision to a nearly perfect fighting system, the other is a slow, brutish, and generally weak “system” that only utilizes the hands and absolutely pathetic blocks that can’t even counter a crescent kick.

---Again, why would you compare the two arts and proclaim one superior over the other...if you were to let a group of boxers loose in a Shinto temple and told them to take the temple, I am certain that they would all get their tooshies kicked...literally! however, this does not count for much when comparing arts...if you were to go toe to toe with Mike Tyson, I am fairly certain YOU would get your butte kicked in a matter of seconds if you were to use the same techniques he was using and not your feet except for positioning on the floor.


As for real sword styles, well, Kenjutsu is the strongest art I’m aware of for military application. In a duel situation without armor it’s much more debatable, being primarily trained in Kenjutsu, I’d tend to favor the Katana, it strikes an excellent balance between range, speed and power. However, I’m also quite fond of the Chinese Jian, though I’m not nearly as skilled with it.

---> what exactly did you mean by "real" sword styles? are you saying that any style NOT Japanese or at least Asian is not a "real" sword style? or that the Europeans did not make "real" swords and therefore have no real teqhniques for useing them. Have you actually studied any Western Martial Arts at all? or are your "opinions" based solely on what the media has presented to you in the movies and what you "think" you know of the styles and methods of European warfare and combat techniques.

Also, straight bladed Ninja sword was the Ninja-to, the bladed was shorter than the Katana, and straight to allow for easier transportation and concealment, as well as it’s ability to be drawn from the back(It’s hard as hell to draw a Katana from your back). Why the back? Well….ever try climbing a wall if a sword at your waist?

--->Again, there is no documented evidence of the straigh bladed "ninja" sword, it was a product of the "kung Fu" movies of the 70's and 80's....if they were carrying any swords at all it was a standard kat which can be worn from the back and drawn easily but, that was not a common thing either for any sword as far as I know, heck! even in the movie Conan the Barbarian, when they kidnapped the princess from the temple, Conan removed the sword strapped to his back and affixed it to his side before hand.

[Timmy Boy]

I don't know very much about how swords are made, but I feel I have to come in to defend the western swords. Both the eastern and western swords developed the way they did because of how warfare developed in their respective cultures. I therefore don't see how western swords can be considered inferior or ineffective, since they were obviously developed and used successfully for their purpose.

I read somewhere that as soon as you say "it's a well known fact", you'll be unable to back it up. Whenever I see actual weapons historians talk about this topic, I see no evidence or argument that European swords were just glorified meat cleavers.

Having said that, I'm not saying that European swords are necessarily superior to those used by the Japanese. People didn't develop these weapons for duelling, they developed them for war with a specific purpose in mind. Comparing a katana against a western sword just because they're both bladed weapons is surely like comparing an interceptor to a bomber.

[silksword]

its not the sword but the skill of the weilder. all weapons are the same in essence, heavy weapons light weapons. no difference. a skilled swordsman can fight with a blade of grass.

[davethekodiak]

sure, a skilled swordsman can fight with a blade of grass, but he will get his grass kicked :D

[Stolenbjorn]

I think all parties should try to respect eachother. When someone posts that they kick ass and everybody else (and their equipment) suck, I think that tells more about the poster than anything else. It would be interresting if mr. Soete-tsuki could cough up some hard evidence for his rather rash and if I might say so totally unfounded fables. It will be fun to tear his "evidence" apart :cool:

[catharsis]

"Well-known facts" are amusing.

Europeans forged steel into exceptional armour with mail backing, cunning lobstering, and plates and joints specifically angled to deflect blows. The armour was well enough balanced that people trained in its use could run, fight and ride horseback despite its weight.

And yet, people are convinced Europeans couldn't handle forging a decent sword.

:bang:

[Domenico]

Welcome to our cause... ;)

[Cudgel]

its almost enough to drive a man to drink.

[Stolenbjorn]

its almost enough to drive a man to drink.My mother bought me some beer(?) called "viking blood" for my 30 year birthday. Some day, I will paste all the worst posts preaching misunderstanings conserning WMA together, print them out and read them while emptying my viking blood-bottle :cool:

[Cudgel]

you should like publish a book on that and call it the " Viking Drinking Book"

[catharsis]

Oo, I have one:

"Battle armour was so heavy knights who fell off their horses needed cranes to get back on!"

[Cudgel]

"And samurai armor is made of super light but strong wood"

[Stolenbjorn]

"And samurai armor is made of super light but strong wood" -yea, but that comment is to be put into the other great book; EMA; the gospell!

With other comments, like "Karate was invented so that you learned to punch through samurai armor with your fists"...


"Battle armour was so heavy knights who fell off their horses needed cranes to get back on!" -and still you can cut through both plate and chainmail armor; especially with a "behold-bow-to-the-sword-God-KATANA", but allso even with an european sword (that of course weighs at least 40 pounds and is inferior to any eastern weapon what so ever) :Alien:

[Cudgel]

yeah because inorder for a european sword to be effective it has to be at least 40 pounds to make up for its sofft sponge like metal that hasnt been foldeed million times and isnt differntally tempered.

[Domenico]

I can't believe you guys don't buy that the specific gravity, mettalurgical properties, and general makeup of Steel is vastly superior when it comes from Japan... ;)

Catharsis, in case you're in the mood for a few rants along these lines, Cudgel, Stolenbjorn, Anthony Shore and myself have been lured into a few doozies, may you find them entertaining...

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=342876#post342876

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=373070#post373070

And perhaps my best all-out assualt on logic, my very first post:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=333873#post333873

<sniff> Damn, I miss the good 'ol days.... :)

[catharsis]

Good stuff !

Of course, it doesn't seem like people actually LISTEN so much, but it's nice to try ;)

[Cudgel]

It seems that some people are just stupid. So sad seeing how one of the virtues of western civillization is intelligence and what not.