True Story Regarding A "Reality Based" SD Course

[cxw]

I just thought I'd post a true story about one of those 2 hour RBSD courses.

Around 4 years ago, an email went around my work place about a 2 hour womens self defense course. The email contained the magical word "black belt" regarding the instructor. Anyhow, around 8 middle class women who clearly had never been in alteraction (or quite possibly never even seen one) went on the course.

The next day this women (lets call her P) started telling how she could now defend herself "against any man". Another workmate (call him R) I've mine started moking her. Now, I got off my computer and worked over to them "yes R, if you don't stop she'll give you a tremendous beating" and said "I believe you P, I think you're just like Mike Tyson". She gave me a look of disgust. Me: "No, I think you are. If R sneaks up to you and hits you in the teeth with a hammer, first you'll laugh for such a pathetic attempt to take you out, then you'll destroy him".

Then I said "but seriously, word it work against Mike Tyson?" - it then turned into being able to defend herself against any ordinary man. I then asked about above ordinary men, it then turned into most men, excluding highly trained men.

I then guessed her weight at 60kg (132 pounds), this offended her as she said she was only 48 kg (106 pounds), I then said "so you dainty, but also extremely powerful", then she said that strength doesn't matter.

At this point logic wasn't going anywhere, so I said "am I an ordinary man". And she said "yes". I replied with "why do you want to defend yourself against an ordinary man?" P: "Because I don't want to get raped". Me:"So you're calling me a rapist". P: "No, but if you were". Me:"Well let's show us your moves karate kid". P:"I don't want to hurt you". Me:"I''ll be ok". So then I get told to position behind her and put my arms around her so can should throw me. First attempt, I pull my arm away, I'm told that I'm cheating. Me:"There are no rules in real life, ok I won't pull my arms away", then whilst she's trying to throw me I pinch her left ear. Now the 3rd time I let her try and throw me, after about 20 seconds I push onto the ground.

Then she says how much rougher she'll be in real life. I say, go on knee me in the groin. So she throws a set of pathetic knees which I easily block.

I then say "give up, you can't even compete against an untrained, unfit, underweight 72kg guy, how are you going to go against a trained heavy weight?". Even then she was still in denial, I think after a few days logic kicked in and she realised she'd been had.

How gulligle are some people to believing you can get the earth for a penny?

PS. I have some magic beans to sell if anybody is interesed?

[YODA]

Unfortunately there is good money to be made in the false sense of security market.

Many people do not truly want to learn to fight. They just want to be told they can fight.

[RichieRich]

People are always looking for miracle quick-fixes - self defense, money making, diets...

Most things worth doing require time and effort.

[YODA]

Indeed they do.

Sadly, we live in a quick fix society.

[sky]

Because these methods work during traing, whilst there training partner stood in the correct position, and like you said never pinched her ear and so on, she may think she can defend herself against average joe but in actual fact she has no idea about a real scenario. As for the the trained heavy weight, if hes a real martial artist and dicsaplines, he would attack a lonley woman

[Mrs Owt]

I've seen this far too many times. Instructors teaching "self defence" when they haven't been in so much as a school yard fight themselves and are only going on what they have read about such events. Or the instructors teaching any sort of MA technique that they have never actually trained in but did a weekend seminar or, worse yet, watched some videos.

In the beginning of your post you said it had the magical words "black belt" in description of the instructor - that is all it takes. If we are all honest we probably all know of an instructor who attained their BB in one art but now wear it teaching something totally different because it is more marketable. Now it is fashionable to teach anti-terrorist courses, got a BB? Go for it, doesn't matter if you have only trained in ImaginaRyu.

[KickChick]

First of all a 2 hour womens self defense course is NOT going to instill even the basic BASICS it takes to defend oneself against an attacker... at most it will make the woman more aware of the need to train to learn the basics and train consistently so that is becomes second nature. Sometimes these 2 hr. courses are a tease in order to try to get women to sign on for longer.... and if not and they guarantee that you will learn all that you need to know to defend yourself from a possible attack, than they are indeed doing a disservice.

I have been involved in several womens SD classes ... one that I assisted in teaching at our school. (... and I've never been in a school yard fight ;) )
It was a 4 week/bi weekly class, that mainly taught awareness and VERY BASIC self defense techniques.... where & how to strike, what to do when taken to the ground or grabbed from behind, etc....

Personally I feel training consistently and keeping oneself physically fit to be able to defend oneself (even if it means running) would give you a far better advantage to defend yourself.

Most of the women who came to these classes were overweight, and totally clueless and unaggressive ... by the end of the classes they knew they needed to get in-shape, gained some awareness skills and learned to express themselves more outwardly than they did the first class. Many decided to begin martial art training.

I have "sat in" on several of these 2 hr women's SD programs given at our local community center. The teachers were lower black belt ranks than me.
I didn't let on that I was formally trained and had them "teach" me.
They sure were surprised when I knocked one of then clear n theiir arse when asked to "try" and kick the target they were holding.
It was truly a joke .... and I more or less expressed my concern with them following the program only to be told that they felt learning "something" was better than "nothing" .... no?

[RichieRich]

I think in 2 hours you could attain knowledge and situational awareness that might save you. Knowing to be vocal, etc...

[YODA]

I think in 2 hours you could attain knowledge and situational awareness that might save you. Knowing to be vocal, etc...
Aye.

I've taught corporate 2 hour "self defence" courses. The first thing I say is that there will be NO hands on trainig and NO martial arts in this 2 hours - we don't have time.

2 Hours gives JUST enough time to discuss general awareness and avoidance, non-verbal communication, management of aggressive behaviour etc.

[Knight_Errant]

Would it be useful to give a few pointers as to working out though- how to shadowbox, hit the bag, good running and weightlifting practice (i.e. HIIT, compound movements) etc. though?

[cybermonk]

People get too hung up in the "self defence" aspect of martial arts. Most schools I have been involved with put emphasis on that they are teaching you how to fight, NOT self defence, which I think is the way to go. The most effective self defence techniques are the ones that dont involve fighting and as such I see no need to add any "martial arts training" in a 2 hour self defence course.

[Taeho]

The only possible benefit to these 2 hours classes is to POSSIBLY give the woman a feeling of self confidence to walk a little differently, hold her head ever so slightly in a more confident manner and MAYBE just maybe a would be attacker might let her walk on by. If they were actually attacked, they would never remember a single thing they were "taught".

Otherwise as KC said, "at most it will make the woman more aware of the need to train to learn the basics and train consistently so that is becomes second nature."

TKDshane

[wrydolphin]

I think that the only thing of value that comes from those classes is the sense that a woman can defend herself. If that translates into a different posture and way of walking, that is. Muggers and rapists are predators, and predators choose the weak of the herd, not the strong. Sometimes, its not that you're strong, its that you seem strong. So, in effect, even though she couldn't defend herself in an office where she knows nothing bad could ever happen to her, you have taken away what little she gained from the course. That said, I hate those two hour courses and think them highly unresponsible and that they can take a woman's health and life into serious jepardy, if the instructor is not careful about what is being taught.

[E-Rocker]

My biggest issue with self-defense is people who think that you can just kick or knee the groin and you don't need to know anything else. Men are hard-wired to protect the groin and landing that kick or knee could be a lot harder than you think.

IMHO, best defense is to not be there in the first place.

[Matt_Bernius]

The above material isn't RBSD. In fact it's just about the opposite of it. As Yoda put it, a reputable 2 hour course focuses on awareness and verbal skills.

It might have been a self defense course, but please don't confuse it with the material taught by people like Tony Blauer, Geoff Thompson and others.

And the above example shouldn't be used to discredit the value of a good RBSD program. No more so than a Mc Dojo should be used to discredit a classical martial art or a poor brawler be used to discredit MMA.

- Matt

[E-Rocker]

And the above example should be used to discredit the value of a good RBSD program.
- Matt

I think you meant "shouldn't," not should.

[Matt_Bernius]

Correct, and I'm correcting the original post. That'll teach me to post while packing!

- Matt

[cxw]

I think that the only thing of value that comes from those classes is the sense that a woman can defend herself. If that translates into a different posture and way of walking, that is. Muggers and rapists are predators, and predators choose the weak of the herd, not the strong. Sometimes, its not that you're strong, its that you seem strong. So, in effect, even though she couldn't defend herself in an office where she knows nothing bad could ever happen to her, you have taken away what little she gained from the course. That said, I hate those two hour courses and think them highly unresponsible and that they can take a woman's health and life into serious jepardy, if the instructor is not careful about what is being taught.

At the time that didn't occur to me that the false sense of security would make her seem less of a target.

On the other hand, what if her false sense of security meant she took a shortcut home at night and got attacked? Perhaps it meant the next time somebody tried to rip her off, she would be more critical of what's given to her?

As Yoda wrote, a good SD course is about awareness, avoidance, body language etc - who's actually better at self defense? a) the person who's been attacked 1000 times, and 999 times has gotten out of the situation alright. Or b) the person who has never been attacked.

[ap Oweyn]

The next day this women (lets call her P) started telling how she could now defend herself "against any man". Another workmate (call him R) I've mine started moking her. Now, I got off my computer and worked over to them "yes R, if you don't stop she'll give you a tremendous beating" and said "I believe you P, I think you're just like Mike Tyson". She gave me a look of disgust. Me: "No, I think you are. If R sneaks up to you and hits you in the teeth with a hammer, first you'll laugh for such a pathetic attempt to take you out, then you'll destroy him".

Then I said "but seriously, word it work against Mike Tyson?" - it then turned into being able to defend herself against any ordinary man. I then asked about above ordinary men, it then turned into most men, excluding highly trained men.

I then guessed her weight at 60kg (132 pounds), this offended her as she said she was only 48 kg (106 pounds), I then said "so you dainty, but also extremely powerful", then she said that strength doesn't matter.

At this point logic wasn't going anywhere, so I said "am I an ordinary man". And she said "yes". I replied with "why do you want to defend yourself against an ordinary man?" P: "Because I don't want to get raped". Me:"So you're calling me a rapist". P: "No, but if you were". Me:"Well let's show us your moves karate kid". P:"I don't want to hurt you". Me:"I''ll be ok". So then I get told to position behind her and put my arms around her so can should throw me. First attempt, I pull my arm away, I'm told that I'm cheating. Me:"There are no rules in real life, ok I won't pull my arms away", then whilst she's trying to throw me I pinch her left ear. Now the 3rd time I let her try and throw me, after about 20 seconds I push onto the ground.

Then she says how much rougher she'll be in real life. I say, go on knee me in the groin. So she throws a set of pathetic knees which I easily block.

I then say "give up, you can't even compete against an untrained, unfit, underweight 72kg guy, how are you going to go against a trained heavy weight?". Even then she was still in denial, I think after a few days logic kicked in and she realised she'd been had.

How gulligle are some people to believing you can get the earth for a penny?


Good question. But do you really think that humiliating her in front of a coworker for believing something she was told by an authority is the way to help her? Or were you trying to help her?

She had no idea what she was doing. And someone who presented himself as an authority told her what to do. The woman was basically taken advantage of by a charlatan. And (if this exchange went down the way you describe) you disabused her of her notions in the harshest way possible.

If I were her, I'd be feeling helpless and stupid right around now. And I have a really hard time believing that's the way to get her on the right track.


Stuart

[RichieRich]

Would it be useful to give a few pointers as to working out though- how to shadowbox, hit the bag, good running and weightlifting practice (i.e. HIIT, compound movements) etc. though?

Thats a bit ambitious, they only have 2 hours and are unlikely to practice anything, otherwise they'd take up an MA.

[Knight_Errant]

In that case, probably the most useful piece of advice is 'I'm sorry, to be any good at fighting you are going to have to practice it quite a lot'- repeated again and again for two hours?

[RichieRich]

I think teaching to shout, run, resist, bite and to have a gameplan before hand would be 2 hours well spent.

[KickChick]

I'm going to move this thread over to the Women's Self-Defense sub-form ...

There is another thread there http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6529

Here in this thread we discussed how to structure a womens self defense course, which takes into consideration many of these practices to teach women

[kiaiki]

No, public humiliation is never aceptable. I've seen some men on the receiving end too: after a few months of MA some of them couldn't help the 'go on, punch me' test- the last one I saw was really funny as he picked a Shotokan Karate exponent. They didn't deserve public humiliation either, just a few quiet words about realism, maybe backed up with a private session or an intro to a better club.

Self Defence for Women? I have 2 daughters (18 and 22) and they have been trained by me and by others. Here in the UK each city and county has its own policy on this. There are some police forces who do not support short self defence courses for women for precisely the reason shown above - they may build too much confidence and too little skill to be useful. It's also a market that is wide open to total charlatans.

Our own (UKMAF) self defence course contained a few 'nasties' that would deal with most men if properly delivered, but it's sad that in the UK a woman who blinds or cripples a man to protect against rape may be deemed to have used excessive force unless the man was going to severely injure or kill her (as if she'd know!). Our police may arrest and charge her. If she has been 'trained' a court may assume that she should be calm enough to act within the law and skilled enough be controlled. Yes, few of our courts know enough to separate a beginner from a BB - admit you study a martial art and it will almost always be used against you.

On balance I would sooner train women than not, but I now advocate it as part of a package of 'streetwise' stuff, including info/advice on avoiding date rape drugs etc.

Both of my daughters study in Leeds, a city with plenty of street violence. I think they should ALL (boys and girls) receive some SD traning as part of their 'fresher's week'.

Let's risk the odd case of over-confidence for the good of the many. I have first hand experience that rapid training properly remembered really works. I took 16 UK students on a tour of India. The girls were getting a lot of groping and unwanted attention from Indian males. A few short lessons later and the next groper got very badly crunched wrist bones (grabbed a breast, got an aikido nikkajo wrist lock). Maybe an over-reaction, but this time HE got the VERY PUBLIC humiliation. Now that's more like it... :)

[KickChick]

The girls were getting a lot of groping and unwanted attention from Indian males. A few short lessons later and the next groper got very badly crunched wrist bones (grabbed a breast, got an aikido nikkajo wrist lock). Maybe an over-reaction, but this time HE got the VERY PUBLIC humiliation. Now that's more like it... :)


That'll be the day when a would-be groper thinks twice before acting on his impulse!

Hope I live to see it! :Angel:

[kiaiki]

I can't wait for the day when our dear old London Underground during rush hour is filled with the sounds of pain as the gropers and pickpockets get their bones crunched.

India was very unusual. In the last few years these guys, who may get beaten to death for groping a local Hindu girl, have been conned by satellite TV (yep, even in poor villages) into believing western girls positively welcome direct sexual advances. MTV and the Fashion Channel are their soft porn channels. Hey, doesn't that mean you yanks are to blame?? :)

[cxw]

No, public humiliation is never aceptable.

Fair point. Maybe I should have done it privately? My aim was to make her realise she got ripped off - and not to take shortcuts home at night etc. Maybe I didn't go about it the right way.

[ap Oweyn]

Fair point. Maybe I should have done it privately? My aim was to make her realise she got ripped off - and not to take shortcuts home at night etc. Maybe I didn't go about it the right way.

My worry is basically that you start with someone who's obviously feeling vulnerable (which is presumably why she signed up for the class) and make her feel foolish. And still vulnerable.

Yeah, I think that sort of thing is best done in private. Apart from anything else, if you attack what she's done, she'll fight back. So now she's more wed to this lackluster self defense thing and less inclined to listen to anything else you have to say.

That's my take anyway.


Stuart

[cxw]

Ok - I could've done things better. At the time I thought it was the best thing to do. The aim was not to embarass her.

I did mention at the end that there are crime prevention type courses around that will probably give useful information regarding avoidance.

At the end of the day, it's not me that was ripping people off.

[ap Oweyn]

Ok - I could've done things better. At the time I thought it was the best thing to do. The aim was not to embarass her.

I hear ya. I don't mean to be passing judgment. I can't promise I'd have handled it any more gracefully myself.

I did mention at the end that there are crime prevention type courses around that will probably give useful information regarding avoidance.

How'd she take it?

At the end of the day, it's not me that was ripping people off.

Amen!


Stuart

[RichieRich]

Ok - I could've done things better. At the time I thought it was the best thing to do. The aim was not to embarass her.

I did mention at the end that there are crime prevention type courses around that will probably give useful information regarding avoidance.

At the end of the day, it's not me that was ripping people off.

I don't want to get in trouble (again) - but you'd feel worse if she'd gone out over confident and paid a price. But as Stuart says, there are ways and means.

[ap Oweyn]

That's an excellent point though. A harsh eye opener beats having the course fail when she's actually being attacked.

[cxw]

That's an excellent point though. A harsh eye opener beats having the course fail when she's actually being attacked.

That was the aim.

This was 4 years ago. I'm quite a bit more mature now and would handle things different. I'm feeling a little bit bad after reading the posts.

[RichieRich]

That was the aim.

This was 4 years ago. I'm quite a bit more mature now and would handle things different. I'm feeling a little bit bad after reading the posts.


*RichieRich pelts cxw with rotten fruit* :p

[wrydolphin]

I know that it was a minimal improvement as far as self defense goes, but it was still better then nothing. And criminals really are oportunistic. I can travel realatively unmolested based on how I carry myself alone. I don't need to carry a neon sign that states "I am a MAist and will rip out your throat if you look at me wrong". Ok, I exagerate. But you get the gist. I am left alone because I walk upright and observe the people around me.
My main concern is if she was then too embarassed to ever go into a "real" self defense course. It is so easy to scare women away from these courses and many would rather not ever prepare for an attack. Its sort of a "if you don't see it, its not there" type reaction. When you are trying to get women into these classes, especially older women who have been told that it is unlady-like to get yourself all mussy in a fight, you really have to walk a delicate balance. You want them to leave with useful skills and confidence, but you can't scare them away by being too agressive, either. And just try to get them on the ground. It is a very hard tight-rope to walk and it is made even harder by outside and thoughtless (though well-meaning) occurances such as you described.
Ok, ok... no more soapbox. Though I can't promise that I will stay off of it for an extended period of time. :)

[ap Oweyn]

That was the aim.

This was 4 years ago. I'm quite a bit more mature now and would handle things different. I'm feeling a little bit bad after reading the posts.

Well, I think Richie Rich has an excellent point. You may not have handled it perfectly. But you were trying to spare her something worse down the road. And that's obviously a good thing in the long run. I have to respect the motive. Delivery is something that gets better with practice.

(I think part of why this strikes home with me is that I did something very similar myself as part of a self-defense course I assisted with in college. I even undermined the instructor in front of her students. And that was a stupid thing for me to do. Part of this is my regrets spilling over, I'm sure.)


Stuart

[cybermonk]

(I think part of why this strikes home with me is that I did something very similar myself as part of a self-defense course I assisted with in college. I even undermined the instructor in front of her students. And that was a stupid thing for me to do. Part of this is my regrets spilling over, I'm sure.)



Dont worry about it guys, I am embarassed to say this but our grandmaster challenged the police department's defence instructor in front of the whole class when he was a cop and beat him. I can honestly say that I would have done it very very differently and when we spoke about it he said something along the lines of "yes, I would too, but things just dont happen like we want them to sometimes." Sometimes we do things because we think they are going to help people but in the end it doesnt turn out as well as we want them to. :Angel:

[ap Oweyn]

Well said.

[KungFuGirl]

I also think this guy was wrong in the way he treated his co-worker.

You don't teach a grade 2 student math by yelling at him and calling his stupid everytime he gets an answer wrong, do you?


Also, it is not entirely her fault. I've seen many cases in class where the guy just falls how he is suposed to. I think that's stupid. I don't want anyone to just "fall" for me (lol double meaning).

It's like those people in class that don't really "punch" when your sparring. It prevents you from learning the blocks properly. I know this girl who's blocks are TERRIBLE but everyone just kind of stops their punches for her. It's stupid because here she is thinking she knows how to block when really I can collapse all her blocks so easily and we are the same size.

Okay I'm done ranting now.

[juan ramirez]

the average woman has no chance against a typical rapist.
lets not even pretend rapists are average men.
he wont have the inhibitions of an average man, he doesnt care if he hurts you!
rapists are typicaly violent. agressive. cunning,strong, fast, and armed. They attack victims at their weakest moments. hollywood likes to portray them as thugish and stupid..WRONG! they are often very charming and intelligent/the perfect man/Thats why they succeed!
here are some REAl tips
Know that you are weak..YES you are weak.
Park as close to your work as possible, with your freinds in a well lit area and come and go in groups.
avoid suspect areas
suspect all areas
NEVER confront suspect individuals..leave and.get help.
practice situational awarness. Look out your office window and scan the lot before you even leave the building.
get an escort when ever possible
if you go to work in a suit. carry a pair of old jeans, old t shirt, an old hoody, and a pair of tennis shoes or light hiking boots,, change before you leave the office. you wont draw as much attention and you can run in these clothes. running in a skirt and pumps, doesnt work!
carry pepper spray, order the pepper spray used for bears. look it up on the internet.
REMEMBER the best defense is to avoid the situation. if you fully understand the reality of your situation you wont be so cavalier and youll realize there isnt a karate chop in the world that will save you. only your brain will. master your mind and you will be a true martial artist.

[KungFuGirl]

Know that you are weak..YES you are weak.



I find this insultory. You could have just said "Know that you are vulnerable" You didn't have to put women down.


I know you can't see it, but I'm glaring at you.

carry pepper spray,

I disagree, most of the time, you'll drop it and it will be used against you.

[RichieRich]

Always use your best judgement to avoid a situation and use your skills to there fullest to escape a situation.

[MarioBro]

My biggest issue with self-defense is people who think that you can just kick or knee the groin and you don't need to know anything else. Men are hard-wired to protect the groin and landing that kick or knee could be a lot harder than you think.

IMHO, best defense is to not be there in the first place.
I agree...I say kick to the groin while in the same instant, attack the eyes with thumbs or fingers or keys. In most cases if they are blocking the groin that means their hands are busy and their face is clear, as well as slightly forward. If they are not blocking the groin...well then they will be hurting and then it is a good time to either go for the eyes or run like heck while screaming like a banshee.

[KungFuGirl]

I agree...I say kick to the groin while in the same instant, attack the eyes with thumbs or fingers or keys. In most cases if they are blocking the groin that means their hands are busy and their face is clear, as well as slightly forward. If they are not blocking the groin...well then they will be hurting and then it is a good time to either go for the eyes or run like heck while screaming like a banshee.


I've always thought this as well. Better to go for the eyes and groin at once. Afterall, I have good balance. It would be hard to block both, especially when not expecting it.

[wrydolphin]

Two things Juan Ramirez, most rapests don't attack you. The majority of women raped know their attacker. Most rapes are date rapes or done by a friend or family member. All that stuff you hear in movies and on TV shows is pretty much a blow up of a few situations. What you are describing is a media stereotype. The other point, guys are always telling women that they need to not dress so nice or wear make up when out running or other truely stupid advice. Rape is not about sexuality. If it were about sexuality, then little old women would be safe. But they aren't. Neither are young boys, girls, women etc, etc, etc. We just had a rash of rapes and assaults here. One was a 72 year old woman, another a junior high student (male). Rape is about power and the relatively few violent attacks that do occur the victim is picked in the same way any predator picks any prey. The weak are attacked, the strong are not. Yes, this is a generalization, but one that stands well enough that I am pretty comfortable with it.

[kenpoguy]

REMEMBER the best defense is to avoid the situation. if you fully understand the reality of your situation you wont be so cavalier and youll realize there isnt a karate chop in the world that will save you. only your brain will. master your mind and you will be a true martial artist.

Yes, the best solution is of course to avoid the situation :) No arguments there whatsoever. Although, there are certantily martial arts manuevers that can save you. The point being, they take time and dedication to learn. They are not something you can learn from one seminar. The average female would not be able to defend herself from the average male/would be rapist but the female with a history of martial arts(for an extended period of time) would learn what to do if it came to that. Now there is no guarentee it would work, but it is certnatily better to have that possiblity of knowing what to at least try to do, rather than just standing there allowing it to happen or screaming where she cant be heard. It goes for all males as well. If males are not trained in the martail arts and are sent to a one hour seminar on how to kill anyone they want to, they will the next day proclaim they can do just that and start pickign fights, only to lose and be embarassed. This also , contary to waht someone earlier said, is nothing like math class in many ways but in many ways is. This is real life, not a class that counts for a grade. If you think you can protect yourself against ANYONE and go around bragging about it, the only right thing to do is prove them wrong in one way or another. In public or not. Being nice about it isnt always the best thing by telling her, "im sure you are very good! Wow you can sure hit hard! I dont know what you jsut did with your hands but that sure looked like u knew what u were doing, could you teach me some!!!" Thus leading to her atempting to teach others, therebye causing others the same problem. Further false senses of security, until the one tragic person is forced to defend herself and actually cant. And for all of you, thinking about flaming me on this one(and I dont blame you, some of my words may be considered rather harsh)but it is what i feel to the truth. I will leave you with some wise words that have been said in the past.

You cannot say to yourself if your not the following, for purposes of motivation....

"I am a champion"
"I am a bull"
"I am undefeatable"
"I am a tiger"
"I am the supreme ruler of my world"

YOU CAN ONLY SAY...

"I want to be a champion"
"I want to be a bull"
"I want to be undefeatable"
"I want to be a tiger"
"I want to be the supreme ruler of my world"(would have some issues if this was the case :D )

NOW IF YOU START OUT WITH THE "I WANT..." AND ACTUALLY MANAGE TO OBTAIN IT THEN THERE IS NO NEED TO SAY ANYTHING! BECAUSE YOU ARE AND THAT SHOULD BE GOOD ENOUGH!

just my 2 cents on all of this

[Judderman]

Two things Juan Ramirez, most rapests don't attack you. The majority of women raped know their attacker. Most rapes are date rapes or done by a friend or family member. All that stuff you hear in movies and on TV shows is pretty much a blow up of a few situations. What you are describing is a media stereotype. The other point, guys are always telling women that they need to not dress so nice or wear make up when out running or other truely stupid advice. Rape is not about sexuality. If it were about sexuality, then little old women would be safe. But they aren't. Neither are young boys, girls, women etc, etc, etc. We just had a rash of rapes and assaults here. One was a 72 year old woman, another a junior high student (male). Rape is about power and the relatively few violent attacks that do occur the victim is picked in the same way any predator picks any prey. The weak are attacked, the strong are not. Yes, this is a generalization, but one that stands well enough that I am pretty comfortable with it.

Wise words.

I've had the pleasure of locking up some rapists in my time. I know little about how they commit their crimes, but as Wrydolphin points out they tend to go for people who are weak, or in situations where they can gain the upper hand easily.

As for the type of man that attacks women, I can honestly say that there are only two characteristics that I have found (note: this is NOT a statistical study) that typify a rapist. 1) Arrogance 2) Aggressive. That's it. Not much to go on is it? It is interesting to note that the statistics (UK) indicate that you are more likely to be raped by your partner, who, interestingly, is more likely to inflict physical injury. Of course serial stranger rapists, who will more likely kill you afterwards, are out there, but they are few and far between.

As far as carrying a weapon is concerned, I believe you should treat them in the same way you do your natural weapons (ie your body). In order to use them effectively you must become comfortable with them and learn how to use them. Pepper sprays are all well and good but don't act instantly. Given an attack will occur by surprise, I don't think you are going to have time to deploy and use it effectively.

If you are in doubt then pressure test it. Use something like salt water, which at best should be uncomfortable, then stage an attack. Tell us your results.

[Rebecca]

running in a skirt and pumps, doesnt work!

Your post contained quite a bit of error, but this is utter nonsense. I know this from experience. I am a slow and akward runner, yet I managed to sprint across a college campus quite effectively in 4 inch heels, nylons, and a skirt. And the high heeled shoes didn't even have backs or ankle-straps.

[Rebecca]

I agree that we should not instill false confidence in people. No one here was arguing that we should. However, I also don't see the point in telling women that it would take them years upon years of practice to be able to learn techniques that might be effective against an attacker. The truth of the matter is that women---small, untrained, physically unfit women---do fend off attackers. You rarely hear about it. Those stories don't make the news.

For example, not that long ago in our area, there was a really bizarre story in the news. Some guy broke into a woman's home while she was asleep in bed, jumped on top of her, pinned her down and tried to rape her. Now for the bizarre part: he suddenly stopped and ran away. News reports shed no light on this mystery. It turns out she defended herself so effectively that he fled.

My mother, as a tiny little girl, around 5 or 6 and very small for her age, escaped a child murderer---and rescued her sister as well.

I could go on with story after story. I love the book "Beauty Bites Beast", because it's full of practical and inspiring self-defense real-life stories.

As a small girl and woman, I've been told my entire life that I was weak and helpless. Self-defense? Laughably impossible. Resistance, by someone like me, was futile. So I was told.

Wrong.

I know that now.

What I don't get is why so many men seem to find a need to tell women how weak they are, especially women they've never seen. Try sparring my sister-in-law. Heheh.

Seriously, the guy who decided to publicly humiliate the woman who'd taken a quicky self-defense course should be glad she hadn't taken a class from my instructor years ago. (He now warns women not to get involved in these silly encounters.) One of his students was taunted after class by her husband. "You could never defend yourself! You probably don't remember anything from your class! What would you do if I grabbed you like this?" She remembered, all right. She broke the instep of his foot. Oops. She didn't mean to...

Once it healed, he came to the dojo. Suddenly he decided that maybe a novice could learn a few effective self-defense techniques.

And he never called his wife "weak" again.

[shotokanwarrior]

I also think this guy was wrong in the way he treated his co-worker.

[QUOTE]You don't teach a grade 2 student math by yelling at him and calling his stupid everytime he gets an answer wrong, do you?


Also, it is not entirely her fault. I've seen many cases in class where the guy just falls how he is suposed to. I think that's stupid. I don't want anyone to just "fall" for me (lol double meaning).

It's like those people in class that don't really "punch" when your sparring. It prevents you from learning the blocks properly. I know this girl who's blocks are TERRIBLE but everyone just kind of stops their punches for her. It's stupid because here she is thinking she knows how to block when really I can collapse all her blocks so easily and we are the same size.

You're right. That was a really arrogant and low thing to do.

Hey, and the girl that you're on about...there used to be someone like that at our dojo. I was about to fight her once and she actually said 'Don't hit me.' Can you believe it??? I also once gave her a (very) controlled kick to the abdomen and she whined really loudly, 'Yerk, you kicked me in the stomach!' Like I wasn't supposed to kick her in the stomach! So I always used to land my shots about six inches from her body, leaving her with the illusion that she could fight when in reality one well placed powerful kick/punch would would make short work of her. Sad.


the average woman has no chance against a typical rapist...
Know that you are weak..YES you are weak.

Don't talk such a load of crap. Why are you so determined that women are defenseless? It's not like their empowerment is an insult to you. You can still train your ass off and become a fighting machine. Keeping someone else down won't make you any better.

And by the way, not all women wear skirts and pumps.

The truth of the matter is that women---small, untrained, physically unfit women---do fend off attackers

Hell, yeah. I am a delicately built girl of 8st. I was once attacked by a bunch of local guys who thought it was funny to surround me against a wall. I ran to one side to the group to avoid being inundated, punched one in the face, kicked another one in the balls and ran off.
Obviously I have succumbed to some brain-washing process that planted a memory that really doesn't exist. What really happened of course was I tried pathetically to resist and ended up lying on the pavement wondering dimly what I was doing with my viscera ripped out on the floor.

Anyone who says women are defenceless, badly needs to listen to Rage Against the Machine.

WAAAAAAAAAKE UUUUUUUUUUUUUUP!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Scarlet Mist]

Women aren't defenseless, really, but a man surrounded by a bunch (let's say 10) of guys trying to kick his ass will get his ass kicked. Just as a woman surrounded by a bunch of guys trying to rape her will be raped, most probably anyway.

As for the cat who "spoke" to the woman in the workplace. I think he was totally justified in his methods. First of all, the woman is not a 2 year old, and chances are simply speaking to her would have no impact. One must learn somehow right?

[YODA]

Women aren't defenseless, really, but a man surrounded by a bunch (let's say 10) of guys trying to ...
Guys?

Man?

No cats?

YAY! :D

[cybermonk]

Guys?

Man?

No cats?

YAY!



As for the cat who "spoke" to the woman in the workplace. I think he was totally justified in his methods. First of all, the woman is not a 2 year old, and chances are simply speaking to her would have no impact. One must learn somehow right?

:p

[shotokanwarrior]

Guys?

Man?

No cats?

YAY!

Oh, poor Scarlet. That looked really painful.

*Watches Scarlet keel over clutching his "idiom"*

[Scarlet Mist]

Oh, poor Scarlet. That assault on his ethnic colloquialisms looked really painful.

*Watches Scarlet keel over clutching his "idiom"*

Idiom?

[shotokanwarrior]

1 a : the language peculiar to a people or to a district, community, or class : dialect b : the syntactical, grammatical, or structural form peculiar to a language
2 : an expression in the usage of a language that is peculiar to itself either grammatically (as no, it wasn't me) or in having a meaning that cannot be derived from the conjoined meanings of its elements (as Monday week for »the Monday a week after next Monday¼)
3 : a style or form of artistic expression that is characteristic of an individual, a period or movement, or a medium or instrument ²the modern jazz idiom³; broadly : manner, style ²a new culinary idiom³

[cybermonk]

I think a simple "slang" would have done the trick a bit better...dont you?

[shotokanwarrior]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It won't do because 1) Most importantly the word slang doesn't 'encapsulate' the meaning of idiom and 2) it won't do because I make a point of being an intellectual snob to counter the stereotype of young people as mindless thugs.

[Dr NinjaBellydance]

As Yoda wrote, a good SD course is about awareness, avoidance, body language etc - who's actually better at self defense? a) the person who's been attacked 1000 times, and 999 times has gotten out of the situation alright. Or b) the person who has never been attacked.

I agree with your point, but its also worth keeping in mind that the person who's never been attacked realistically has NO IDEA how they will react if it actually happens. We can all talk the talk, but it's really all just so much hot air if you've never actually been there. :rolleyes:

PS: Good on you Rebecca, because I can barely walk in 4 inch heels, let alone run! ;)

And shotokan warrior, however you justify your 'intellectual snobbery', be careful, it's worth keeping in mind that it may be viewed as 'smart-arsery', which is another 'young person's stereotype'. :rolleyes:

[cybermonk]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It won't do because 1) Most importantly the word slang doesn't 'encapsulate' the meaning of idiom and 2) it won't do because I make a point of being an intellectual snob to counter the stereotype of young people as mindless thugs.

Hmmmm... :cool:

:D

[Scarlet Mist]

I agree with your point, but its also worth keeping in mind that the person who's never been attacked realistically has NO IDEA how they will react if it actually happens. We can all talk the talk, but it's really all just so much hot air if you've never actually been there.


Exactly! People say, I would have done this and I would have done that, when really they would have gotten hit with a baseball bat.
But, although I've never been attacked, I can guess from previous experience how I may react. I usually see myself running at high speed in a panicky fervour (at least that's what happened when a bunch of dogs attacked me when I was a kid).

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It won't do because 1) Most importantly the word slang doesn't 'encapsulate' the meaning of idiom and 2) it won't do because I make a point of being an intellectual snob to counter the stereotype of young people as mindless thugs.

Indeed, most of the young people are mindless thugs, the others in the minority are underread dictionary beaters who chuck words around like faster than they can catch them, flying in the face of simple communication! Oh my Gosh, the youth are severely misguided! :D How about we take it one step back? Do people understand you when you talk? If they don't and it's because you are deliberately using language to make you seem better than them, then you are a) not communicating effectively b)making people ask unnecessary questions and c) being a serious waste of time.
Of course, I could lecture you on why high rhetoric in normal, day to day communication is not cool, but I figure you'll understand when you're older ;) ;)

[shotokanwarrior]

because you are deliberately using language to make you seem better than them

Well, being articulate is also an inveterate habit I have(my mother does it too) but I have been deliberately cultivating it lately. So I guess I'm not that misguided.

[Scarlet Mist]

Well, being articulate is also an inveterate habit I have(my mother does it too) but I have been deliberately cultivating it lately. So I guess I'm not that misguided.

No, not articulate. Articulate means clear, easily understood/well explained. Throwing infrequent words around is pretentious.

[gedhab]

Throwing infrequent words around is pretentious.

HAHAHAHAHA! LOL! Damn true mate..couldn't agree more! :D

[ap Oweyn]

We're way off topic now. But for whatever it's worth, I think shotokanwarrior is right on this one. "Idiom" and "slang" are similar. But not identical. And it's the subtle differences in word use that mark expression.

Slang describes a set of words not in common use but in common enough use that a select population will get it. So if I said someone got "sacked" (which I did in class recently), Brits would get it. The population at large where I live (the United States) did not.

An idiom is more personalized than that. It doesn't imply the shared element that slang does. It implies a stylized, individualized mode of expression. In this case, Scarlet Mist's individualized mode of expression (which I dig, by the way).

So Scarlet's use of the word "cat" for example, is both slang and idiomatic. But I think the way shotokanwarrior used "idiom" was accurate, appropriate, and intentional.

Besides, it ain't an insult to be idiomatic. It just looks like "idiotic." :)


Stuart

[Matt_Bernius]

I agree with your point, but its also worth keeping in mind that the person who's never been attacked realistically has NO IDEA how they will react if it actually happens. We can all talk the talk, but it's really all just so much hot air if you've never actually been there. :rolleyes:For the sake of arguement I'm going to disagree in part. While someone might never be involved in a fight I still think fight dynamics (I'll use the term to equate self defense scenario) can be simulated with chilling accuracy. I've seen RBSD systems that do this quite well. Its also rather stressful for everyone involved. But still it can be done and from observed results within a small group it seems like it works quite well. Of course further testing is required before we can be completely sure.

- Matt

[Dr NinjaBellydance]

That's true, and I think stuff like that is a good thing, but at the end of the day, it's not REAL. However stressfull it is it's not the same as the actual possibility that you might be raped or killed. It's like being a first aider, you know all the stuff, you know what to do if this happens or that happens, you've even done some scenarios with fake blood, but when it's your loved one who is lying there in a pool of real blood, or not breathing and the adrenaline kicks in you dont really know how much you're gonna panic. :)

[shotokanwarrior]

I wouldn't have used the word slang anyway, because I have taken to operating on a principle of doing everything whole-heartedly, or as my sensei says:

'Even if you're scratching your bum, do it big, do it strong, do it with intensity.'

Hey, Scarlet....this is a total non sequitur, but where did you get the name Scarlet Mist? It's my mum who wants to know not me - I mentioned to her I had been conversing over the net with a guy called Scarlet Mist and she's curious as to why you use this monicker. Don't take this badly if it's too personal. My mum also says you can tell her to sod off if you like.

[Defender]

E- Rocker, sometimes you are there, and knowing what to do when you are in that situation is vital, don't you agree? Shouldn't martial arts prepare us for real life situations? What are they there for if not for the discipline and knowledge to defend yourself?

[cybermonk]

My personal take is that you should be in danger before you experience martial arts. If you have never trained anything but have violent encounters on a regular basis once you find martial arts you have half of the self defence equation figured out. What do you think?

[Scarlet Mist]

Hey, Scarlet....this is a total non sequitur, but where did you get the name Scarlet Mist? It's my mum who wants to know not me - I mentioned to her I had been conversing over the net with a guy called Scarlet Mist and she's curious as to why you use this monicker. Don't take this badly if it's too personal. My mum also says you can tell her to sod off if you like.

Well, because I tend to show up in one place and then vanish, just like a mist. Scarlet, because when you see Scarlet, you know it's Scarlet. And when Scarlet's in the house, you KNOW Scarlet's in the house!! :D

[Matt_Bernius]

That's true, and I think stuff like that is a good thing, but at the end of the day, it's not REAL. However stressfull it is it's not the same as the actual possibility that you might be raped or killed. It's like being a first aider, you know all the stuff, you know what to do if this happens or that happens, you've even done some scenarios with fake blood, but when it's your loved one who is lying there in a pool of real blood, or not breathing and the adrenaline kicks in you dont really know how much you're gonna panic. :)Agreed. But what concerns me about this type of statement is that it can be used to suggest that training can't get you a long way to an understand of how to preform and where the stresses may be.

I refuse to believe that we can't develop better and better methods to allow us to reasonably project how we will perform. You're right, we can never be completely sure. But if we can even be mostly sure, that's going to help.

- Matt

[Dr NinjaBellydance]

I guess the point I'm trying to make with this is that many people seem to think that just because they have MA training and are great in competitions automatically means that they will be the world's greatest street fighter whilst never having been in a truly dangerous situation in their lives. Yes, training methods can go a long way towards preparing people for that, and it's a good thing, but I also think that people need to be aware of the 'reality factor' which means that even if you do manage to react according to your training it's never gonna be the Jackie Chan scene you think it is! Plus it can also give people an unwarranted arrogance 'I know MA therefore I can deal with any street situation', when it should be 'I know MA so I am better equipped than I would otherwise be and I hope that I would be able to deal with any street situation'.
To be honest, I dont think we're really disagreeing that much with this! ;)

[cybermonk]

I have always been of the oppinion that martial arts teach you how to fight, not self defence.

[Knight_Errant]

They're one and the same thing.

[Freeform]

They're one and the same thing.

I'd have to disagree with you KE, If I was defending myself against someone I'd be happy to knock them other and then leg it.

If I was fighting them, I'd stomp the crap out of them (then maybe run ;) ).

[cybermonk]

Its definately not the same thing, you could be a great fighter without having a clue about self defence, self defence includes guns, gangs and all sorts of tricks people can try to weaken you before an attack, knowing how to fight will definately not help you in every self defence situation.

[Rebecca]

PS: Good on you Rebecca, because I can barely walk in 4 inch heels, let alone run! ;)



Well, now that I rarely wear 4 inch heels, I'd probably have a much harder time running in them!

[shotokanwarrior]

Thanks for the explanation Scarlet. It's a cool name...nice powerful image

[Scarlet Mist]

They're one and the same thing.

Well the fact that you are alive means that a) you have never had to defend yourself or b) you are one hell of a good fighter

But it's so painfully obvious that I don't understand why you don't get it.
Running away from big man trying to kill you = self defence, but not fighting
Punching big man trying to kill you in the face and knocking him unconscious = self defence and fighting.

Not all self defence is fighting and not all fighting is self defence. They are therefore not the same thing.

[enquirer]

Just goes to show ... assume nothing .... I thought it was to do with the "scarlet mist" you are supposed to see when you are in a towering blood-crazed killing rage. Well I'll be.