No internal martial artists in ufc?

[AAAhmed46]

I respect internal martial arts, i have sparred with a guy who fights with hsing i, and i got my ass handed to me(In africa)

But why dont we see any of these warriors in the UFC or other full contact fights?

[nzric]

I think it's a bit of a combination. The IMA community tends to look down on people who are too flashy in their IMA teaching/ability - the culture is people should know you are a great fighter.. if you advertise yourself too much you're obviously no good. Also, there isn't a hugely competitive culture in the training of IMA. There are no belts (although there are some indoor/outdoor traditions) and the atmosphere in class is usually a cooperative one.

That may be a good or a bad thing. Because there's no freestyle sparring in traditional IMA training, the schools tend not to compete in these competitions, and many students of these styles don't get as confident of their abilities as they may do in an external style (especially if they don't have any fighting experience before).

If there is free sparring, it tends to be where both students are trying to use IMA techniques. That's not a good training method for open competition. Also, because there's a bit of a stigma among IMA stylists about external styles (and the other way around), there's not much opportunity to try your style in a friendly sparring environment (unless it's with a friend who happens to do an external style).

Also, the IMA teachers will say it's because IMA has a health/healing philosophy behind it, and no "real" IMA practitioner would go into these competitions.

Oh, and some folks say that once someone becomes an IMA master, they're serenely confident in their abilities and "don't need to prove anything to anybody".

[Kat]

Because there's no freestyle sparring in traditional IMA training,
I agree with almost everything you said except for the above.This, in my experience is a modern misconception promoted for various reasons.Schools of the early 20th century China regularly had full contact training.I would go so far as to say that any school serious about improvement and function had regular full contact training.

[cybermonk]

Where I train at some guys do internal while others do external styles but when it comes to sparring everyone spars together. In effect I would say those internal guys do have full contact sparring.

[AAAhmed46]

Where I train at some guys do internal while others do external styles but when it comes to sparring everyone spars together. In effect I would say those internal guys do have full contact sparring.

Well, i also guess its 'maturaraty' or a clubs 'atmosphere' counts. I mean, if you look at the first ufc, nobody was in there in any karate or kung-fu style that was above 3rd dan.
Also most of these guys were from north america,the best internal martial artsits are from thier home countries are they not?

[gerard]

Let me add my two $$.

In my Taiji group (Chen style) we always finish our lesson by applying the art to fighting.

Anyway in mainland China there are regular SanShou Boxing competitions on stage where Taiji fighters compete. There are also open competitions to all MA regardless of style.


Regards.

[SoKKlab]

I respect internal martial arts, i have sparred with a guy who fights with hsing i, and i got my ass handed to me(In africa)

But why dont we see any of these warriors in the UFC or other full contact fights? Maybe not the UFC, but Tim Cartmell who is a very accomplished Hsing-I, Pakua and Tai Chi Ch'uan Instructor is also a very highly ranked Brasilian Jiu Jitsu practioner and regularly competes at World Level.

[daftyman]

Maybe not the UFC, but Tim Cartmell who is a very accomplished Hsing-I, Pakua and Tai Chi Ch'uan Instructor is also a very highly ranked Brasilian Jiu Jitsu practioner and regularly competes at World Level.
DISCAIMER: I use the quote purely as an example and not as a slight on anyone. :)

I get the impression that any internal martial artist that would enter UFC would probably have a background in another style, a more 'external' style. So the question would then be, does he follow the principles of his IMA training? Or just mash the guy with his other knowledge? How could we tell?

there is a story, not totally unrelated to this.
In Taiwan there was a taiji student who entered a competition (taiji push-hands I think). He lost, very quickly. He asked his teacher why.
The teacher's response was along the lines of the following:
As soon as you entered the competition, you gave up your fearlessness to suffer loss. This made you tense up mentally/physically. That is why you lost.

Well, I thought it was related anyway! :D

[Scarlet Mist]

Because the UFC is only for meatheads that can hit hard.

[daftyman]

Because the UFC is only for meatheads that can hit hard.
I wouldn't say that! They might beat me up!
*sound of someone running away to hide under the sofa*

[Thomas]

Because the UFC is only for meatheads that can hit hard.

I don't really think "meathead" is a term I would use for polite discussion and open-minded sahring of ideas.

[YODA]

Because the UFC is only for meatheads that can hit hard.
Stop trolling please.

[Scarlet Mist]

Jeez. I'm not trolling, I'm just stating my views, how does someone with almost 1000 posts just troll around. Have some faith.
I don't think internal MAists are interested in competing in the UFC, because the UFC is mainly targeted at external martial artists it seems. You can see most of the UFC competitors are heavily muscled.

[YODA]

Yes - you can give your opinion. But please do so without referring to dedicated athletes as "meatheads."

[YODA]

I don't really think "meathead" is a term I would use for polite discussion and open-minded sahring of ideas.
Me neither.

[Scarlet Mist]

I was called "nerdy", ... I mean I wasn't a dedicated student by any means ... but I never took offense ... guess you just never know what offends some people

[Matt_Bernius]

There are a couple things going on. As people suggested, may IMA schools have all but totally eschewed any form of sparring beyond stylized push hands. I think this is one of the unforuntate legacies of Cheng Man-Ching.

However thereare people like Su Dong Chen and Peter Ralston who actively used IMA in full contact fighting. It can be done. The UFC, at least back in the day, was a pretty hand picked event. I would be surprised if they thought to approach any IMA folks (notice the fact they also failed to approach Judoka... hmmm I wonder why that was).

- Matt

[YODA]

(notice the fact they also failed to approach Judoka... hmmm I wonder why that was).

- Matt
Remco Pardoel? UFC2?

[notquitedead]

Yes all MMA fighters are 'meatheads'. :rolleyes:

Funny, because the guys in the lower weight classes usually have very little muscle and rely more on technique. BTW, small guys don't fight 'meatheads', they fight other small guys. That's the point of weight classes, so people don't use size as an excuse like it seems you are.

Also, this internal vs. external debate is getting severely annoying. All they mean is where they were developed. Internal= inside China. External= either outside of China or inside China but with external influence (shaolin styles supposedly had Indian influence, etc). It just so happens that the 'internal' styles are all taoist in nature (because if they were Buddhist in nature, they would be considered 'external' lol).

You guys should know this better than me, but internal styles aren't all meditation and qi gong. They have stances. They have footwork. They have strikes. Those things allow you to fight, don't make excuses about how "UFC is mainly for external stylists". MMA isn't racist, it allows Chinese styles too! ;)

Oh and all this stuff about how internal stylists don't care about competing because they have nothing to prove is BS. The style doesn't change the persons personality. "Meatheads" can do tai chi, too.

I'm sorry to say this, but some of the replies so far have sounded like excuses.

[AAAhmed46]

Yeah i agree, UFC fighters ARE skilled fighers, ALL of them.

[Ad McG]

Remco Pardoel? UFC2?



Hmmmm... Denied? :D

[notquitedead]

Yeah i agree, UFC fighters ARE skilled fighers, ALL of them.
This is just a guess, but I'm guessing that was sarcasm.

Yes, all these 'meatheads' have no skill whatsoever. They just train 5-7 days a week spending hours sparring and rolling everyday and then pull of a win with no skill AT ALL. Just brute force. No, grappling isn't about control or leverage, it's about being a huge meathead who can pick up your opponent over your head and throw him out of the ring. :rolleyes:

[alex_000]

Yeah i agree, UFC fighters ARE skilled fighers, ALL of them.
Lol a lot of things have been questioned in stupid threads but , if someone ever said that UFC fighters are not skilled fighters he should be banned. No talking no questioning no arguing, just bye bye. :D

That goes too far.

[AAAhmed46]

But really, im still curious on to WHY we never see this in the UFC.

HOw does one join and fight in these tournaments anyway?

[Matt_Bernius]

Remco Pardoel? UFC2?

Thought he was a ju jitsu man:
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=33

On a similar note, is there a place where they list the cards and results of past UFCs? I've been trying to find one for a bit.

There have been a few UFC fighters who haven't been overly skilled. Tank Abbott immediately springs to mind (I cannot express how much I was rooting for Taktaroff). However, by and large these are very skilled individuals.

Also, this internal vs. external debate is getting severely annoying. All they mean is where they were developed. Internal= inside China. External= either outside of China or inside China but with external influence (shaolin styles supposedly had Indian influence, etc). It just so happens that the 'internal' styles are all taoist in nature (because if they were Buddhist in nature, they would be considered 'external' lol).Can you cite a source for this? It's the first time I've ever heard anything like that.

Finally, it was my understanding that the fighters in the first few UFCs were selected/invited by the promoters. Currently there is a qualifing system if memory serves.

- Matt

[alex_000]

There have been a few UFC fighters who haven't been overly skilled. Tank Abbott immediately springs to mind


For me being skilled in something means:

To have a goal and achieve it through using the skill you posses. (provided that the goal is difficult to achieve)

So i think Tank was one of the most skilled fighters in the UFC even if he couldn't kick waist high.

[Yukimushu]

' Meatheads '

From what ive experianced, this term is loosly used by uneducated people who have seen a highlight clip of the KO's that are lying around the internet. The people who have watched a video and made a snap judgement...

He who says UFC? (mma) fighters have no skill obviously has no clue about MMA.

You'll actually notice that some of the fighters are intelligent people; but then what do i know... im a 'meathead'...

[Ikken Hisatsu]

hold on- you think tank isnt a good fighter? are you on the crack? he would kill most people. compared to the BEST FIGHTERS IN THE WORLD he may not be too hot, but compared to your or me he would be a nightmare.


oh and if its only based on strength, why does royce gracie win any fights? hes like 80kg and punches like a girl.

[Yukimushu]

The funny thing is, is that he actually does punch much like a girl; maybe even worse than a girl :) Royce really needs to work on standup more ;)

[Matt_Bernius]

For me being skilled in something means:

To have a goal and achieve it through using the skill you posses. (provided that the goal is difficult to achieve)

So i think Tank was one of the most skilled fighters in the UFC even if he couldn't kick waist high.

hold on- you think tank isnt a good fighter? are you on the crack? he would kill most people. compared to the BEST FIGHTERS IN THE WORLD he may not be too hot, but compared to your or me he would be a nightmare.

Alex, what you're describing is determination, not skill. There's no doubt of his determination. I think Tank is a powerful fighter. No question about that. But no, I haven't seen much to convince me he's a skilled fighter (at least by my view of it). And I think his record supports my view:
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=110

8 wins
10 losses

And of those wins most were from striking. The fact is he has good boxing fundiments, generates a lot of power, and can absorb a lot of punishment. However he doesn't have much of a grappling game (most of his losses are cases where he's out grappled) and he's also been out punched. Also note the fact that most of his losses have been at the hands of smaller (lighter) opponents.

And Ikken I didn't say he was a bad fighter. I said he is an unskilled fighter. They are not mutually exculsive terms. Quite frankly, because he's a pro he needs to be held to a higher standard. He would eat me for lunch. There's no question. But when compared against his peers (which are the only fair people to compare him against) he's towards the bottom of that barrel on skills.

- Matt

[daftyman]

It seems to me, that UFC has a lot to do with 'spirit', guts. I imaging, from reading this thread, that is why less skilled fighters do well.

I'd heard about a jujitsu guy doing well just using jujitsu, just couldn't remember his name. I think it was mentioned in this thread.

I've heard about the whole internal/external - indiginous/imported style of martial arts.

I think that a common thought is to view internal martial arts that come from a more relaxed standpoint. relaxation is focused on first. I believe that high level practitioners of so-called external styles try to improve their relaxation, I have also heard of high level karateka telling his students to study tai chi to help their own practice (increase fluidity and control, better use of the waist). How about trying out kicks etc at a tai chi pace? (I think BK Frantzis is quoted as saying that this type of practice helped him get much better control of his kicks.)

IMHO, there is a high level of philosophy/spirituality tied in to the internal styles. This could be Taoist, Confucian, Russian Orthodox Christianity etc. A lot of what these things say would tend to lead people away from UFC, or a similar type of arena.
Why would an 'internal' martial artist want to go in to UFC?

One of the things I like about the IMA is this:
Hard-style fighters say: you should have seen me when I was 30/younger I could really kick ass
'Soft-style' pratitioner: You should see me when I'm 80!

I practice IMA, I have no desire to enter competitions as I'm more likely to use the ancient art of Glesga F'u Kyu, than anything from my IMA.

Glesga F'u Kyu: Stick the heid in, nut the bam an' kick his baws 'till he caws oot fer 'is maw! :D

[alex_000]

Alex, what you're describing is determination, not skill. There's no doubt of his determination. I think Tank is a powerful fighter. No question about that. But no, I haven't seen much to convince me he's a skilled fighter (at least by my view of it). And I think his record supports my view:
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=110

8 wins
10 losses



If you trully believe that determination is enough for ufc then there is no point in arguing we just disagree. Determination has a lot to to do when your self is the opponent not when someone else is.

And about the stats , the guy is been around for 10 years. He had 3 looses in a row this year... come on.

[Matt_Bernius]

If you trully believe that determination is enough for ufc then there is no point in arguing we just disagree. Determination has a lot to to do when your self is the opponent not when someone else is.No determination alone didn't get him there. Training and practice did. He's got a lot of flight time. And as I stated he's a powerful fighter able to absorb a lot of damage. Butterbean can absorb a lot of damage. But I don't think he's a skilled fighter. Tank Abbot, doesn't have the same level of fight skills that other competitors on the same level do. Why is that so hard to accept?

And about the stats , the guy is been around for 10 years. He had 3 looses in a row this year... come on.And over those 10 years in these recorded matches he's lost more than he's won. And from the footage that I've seen, he's been able to dominate people who are less strong and aggressive (if you look at his wins on Sherdog you can't say he was beating the best of the best).

Put him up against a skilled opponent and he just doesn't have what it takes. Research the people who've beaten him:

1. They're almost all smaller than he is (he usually has them by at least 20 lbs).
2. They're percision fighters. They have better skills, better conditioning, and fankly better strategy.

Thake for example Vitor Belfort! Tank had almost 50 lbs on him and Vitor TKO'd him. He went to Tank's playground and beat him on it. That's skill.

Tank's a brawler. And that can only get him so far. When he runs up against a moderately skilled opponent he loses. Against a really skilled opponent he's taken apart.

I've yet to see anyone (especially him) offer conclusive evidence that his skills are not sub par for a pro.

- Matt

ps. Man this thread has been hijacked. Mod/Admins, any chance of a split?

[AAAhmed46]

So.....how do you get into the UFC? Maybe then we would see an internal guy join.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

So.....how do you get into the UFC? Maybe then we would see an internal guy join.

There are smaller MMA shows all over the country. Build a record and a reputation, join a good fight team, get a good manager, and BAM.

[alex_000]

LOL your sig made me go and see the clip 10 times :D

"its how a nigga eat" LOL ...

[notquitedead]

HOw does one join and fight in these tournaments anyway?
Not sure exactly, just talk to one of the promoters or find a fighter who can give you names and numbers of who to talk to about it. If they think you're good, they'll let you fight.

Can you cite a source for this? It's the first time I've ever heard anything like that.
No sorry, not sure if there even are any. However, I've read some VERY convincing cases that support this and it makes sense to me. How can 'internal' and 'external' be different? 'Internal' styles have everything that external styles do (stances, techniques, etc). Some people use the terms 'hard' and 'soft' which IMO are even worse. How can they be 'hard' or 'soft'? Soft styles have attackers, and hard styles still have circular movements, blocks, deflections, and evading techniques. They aren't mutually exclusive, and those categories just don't work.

There have been a few UFC fighters who haven't been overly skilled. Tank Abbott immediately springs to mind
The fighters have rapidly evolved since the early UFC's when Tank fought. He hasn't won a fight since '98. I don't doubt he has some skill, but from what I've read about him he mostly relied on strength.

Modern MMA fighters are certainly in good condition, but any serious athlete is. Do you consider all those people in the olympics 'meatheads' just because they aren't couch potatos? Some of the guys I train with are certainly strong, but one in particular is amazingly skilled in grappling. (I'm not trying to brag or anything, he hasn't fought pro much yet, just pointing out how strength and skill can go together)

And of those wins most were from striking. The fact is he has good boxing fundiments, generates a lot of power, and can absorb a lot of punishment. However he doesn't have much of a grappling game (most of his losses are cases where he's out grappled) and he's also been out punched. Also note the fact that most of his losses have been at the hands of smaller (lighter) opponents.
If someone out-strikes Tank, that's proof of skill over strength. That guy is HUGE.

It seems to me, that UFC has a lot to do with 'spirit', guts. I imaging, from reading this thread, that is why less skilled fighters do well.
You obviously don't know anything about MMA if you don't think skill plays a major part in it.

IMHO, there is a high level of philosophy/spirituality tied in to the internal styles.
zen and Chan Buddhism play a MAJOR role in many martial arts. Are they internal? No.

Matt Bernius, I think Alex is just trying to say that skill plays a major factor in MMA now, because some other people keep trying to say it's more about determination and being a 'meathead'.

[AAAhmed46]

No sorry, not sure if there even are any. However, I've read some VERY convincing cases that support this and it makes sense to me. How can 'internal' and 'external' be different? 'Internal' styles have everything that external styles do (stances, techniques, etc). Some people use the terms 'hard' and 'soft' which IMO are even worse. How can they be 'hard' or 'soft'? Soft styles have attackers, and hard styles still have circular movements, blocks, deflections, and evading techniques. They aren't mutually exclusive, and those categories just don't work.

Well i understand what your saying Hsing i(very direct and aggresive) is very different from tai chi and Pau kua.
The term 'internal' is used to describe techniques and punches that are completly focussed on breathing. I know breathing goes with alot of martial arts, but is the main soarce of power. Internal martail artists rarely focus on arm strength and mostly focus on breathing. I dont agree with this. Imagine haveing really really strong arms AND having breath generated punchs?
Internal means breathing focussed.

[Yukimushu]

Tank Abbot isn't a champion... he isn't the most skillful fighter in mma. If you can claim that there's no skill required in MMA tournaments then you've obviously not seen such fighters as Randy Coture, Cro cop, Jeremy Horn...

They're far from ' meat heads ' and are very skillful people, their good at what they do because they practise and are very skillful fighters.

[AAAhmed46]

yeah, that cant be denied. I would hate to get into the ring with one of those guys......

[daftyman]

You obviously don't know anything about MMA if you don't think skill plays a major part in it.
.....
zen and Chan Buddhism play a MAJOR role in many martial arts. Are they internal? No.
Ok, first I was not saying that skill does not play a major part in MMA tournaments. What I was saying is:
If you have two fighters with equal skill squaring off, the one with the most 'spirit' is more likely to win. Taken a step further, this would lead us to think that if a skilled fighter with not a lot of 'spirit' went up against a fighter with not quite so much skill (but nearly the same, the underdog) but this guy has a ton of guts and 'spirit' then is it not true that he could win?
Clearly without skill, you have no chance of winning. But if you have both skill and 'spirit' then I think you can really succeed.
I also do not claim to know a lot/anything about MMA, but I believe that the above couple of paragraphs would hold true in almost any arena.

Secondly, I do not believe that I was saying that the 'internal' martial arts hold a monopoly on religious/philosophical ties. But I believe that these doctrines would tend to lead us away from these tournaments and not towards them.

[notquitedead]

But I believe that these doctrines would tend to lead us away from these tournaments and not towards them.
I've never seen anything in taoism about not fighting...yet many branches of Buddhism are against it. Wouldn't it make more sense if the Buddhist martial arts were more against competing than the taoist ones? ;)

The history of an art doesn't necessarily change a person's personality, so the style shouldn't determine whether they compete or not.

[AAAhmed46]

But the question is still barely answered, WHY arnt there any Internal(Im talking the 'big' three, hsing-i, Pau kua, tai chi) in MMA tournaments? I know many of these styles adopt the softer 'push hands' exersizes, but in china, and in ANY country were you cant sue randomly(the third world) there is alot of contact when they fight.

Is it because full contact Internal styles are rare in north america? I mean, most UFC fighters seem very north american.

[notquitedead]

Is it because full contact Internal styles are rare in north america? I mean, most UFC fighters seem very north american.
Not sure, but look at Pride FC. People from Japan, Korea, Brazil, Russia, Ukraine, etc all compete there. If a good Chinese fighter wanted to get in, he probably could.

The reason a lot of the UFC fighters are from the US is because we have lots of smaller shows all over the country, so when they need 'filler' people (people aside from the main events) they can look around and see who has been fighting well and ask them to fight.

[Knight_Errant]

I imaging, from reading this thread, that is why less skilled fighters do well.
From that point forward, this thread ceased to be about positive contribution. Therefore:
http://www.clarity.net/~adam/images/misc/humor/comics/stupid2.gif

[daftyman]

From that point forward, this thread ceased to be about positive contribution. Therefore:
http://www.clarity.net/~adam/images/misc/humor/comics/stupid2.gif
What!?! I am assuming that you did not read the follow-up post?
In the entirety of this thread, this has got to be the most negative statement.
The quote is also taken out of context. You could get a job in the tabloids.

Do you have anything positive to add? Or are you just here to throw insults? Tell us your views on the matter.

[Knight_Errant]

What!?! I am assuming that you did not read the follow-up post?
In the entirety of this thread, this has got to be the most negative statement.
The quote is also taken out of context. You could get a job in the tabloids.

Do you have anything positive to add? Or are you just here to throw insults? Tell us your views on the matter.

I think you have great difficulty accepting that real fighting looks like that- boring, brutal and ugly. Applying 'good' technique is very difficult when you're under the pressure of fighting an opponent who is actually resisting you. Furthermore, this thread is about trolling, i.e. Bashing either IMA or UFC. There is no way in hell this topic can produce anything positive. Furthermore, I think you could probably find some UFC people who do a bit of internal martial arts on the side.

[daftyman]

I think you have great difficulty accepting that real fighting looks like that- boring, brutal and ugly.
No, I quite agree that real fights look rubbish compared to the movies. :)
There is no way in hell this topic can produce anything positive.
True it does seem to have descended a bit too far into trollish regions. :(
Thank you for your more reasoned response. :)

The following is as a reply to an earlier post regarding Taoism and competition:

The Good Life. The Taoist ideal, the good life, is a community living a natural, harmonious, simple life without the pressures of war and competition. "Being" not "having" becomes the enlightened style of life. Contented individuals, simple, whole and alert possess the necessary leisure to engage in a life of harmony with others and with nature. The result is a sense of personal spontaneity ('tzu-jan' [dzuh-rahm], spontaneity, nature, naturalness) which comes from within, in concert with the ebb and flow of nature itself.

Other personal traits within the tradition include reverent humility, and an avoidance of strident, aggressive behavior with others and nature. Selflessness, cleanliness and emotional calm characterize the fulfilled individual.
(taken from http://wrc.lingnet.org/taoism.htm)

I would also add that a fervent buddhist would, I feel, avoid UFC because of the compassionate nature of the religion.

Anyway I've now said my £0.34 so I will drag myself away from this thread. Ta-ta! :D

[Matt_Bernius]

The fighters have rapidly evolved since the early UFC's when Tank fought. He hasn't won a fight since '98. I don't doubt he has some skill, but from what I've read about him he mostly relied on strength.

*snip*

If someone out-strikes Tank, that's proof of skill over strength. That guy is HUGE.

*snip*

Matt Bernius, I think Alex is just trying to say that skill plays a major factor in MMA now, because some other people keep trying to say it's more about determination and being a 'meathead'.Tank Abbot isn't a champion... he isn't the most skillful fighter in mma. If you can claim that there's no skill required in MMA tournaments then you've obviously not seen such fighters as Randy Coture, Cro cop, Jeremy Horn.There have been a few UFC fighters who haven't been overly skilled. Tank Abbott immediately springs to mind (I cannot express how much I was rooting for Taktaroff). However, by and large these are very skilled individuals.Geez folks, please read complete posts. My citing of Tank Abbott and my attack on his "skills" was simply to assert that simply being in the UFC or K1 or ETC doesn't necessarily make one skilled (especially on the level of many of the other competitors). I did state that by and large the folks in these competitions are very skilled. There's no question about it. The proof is on the tape. However, Mr Abbott doesn't place into that elite group. Can he brawl? Yes. Is he on an equal skill level? No. In fact if you go through the early UFC records there were a lot of dubiously skilled fighters in there. Not so much the case any more. Again (once more for the people in the back row and feel free to quote me for what it's worth) There are a lot of skilled folk in the UFC, Pride, K1, etc! To state otherwise is just ignorant.

BTW Pankration90 can you get me a reference on that bit you posted about the internal martial arts earlier on the thread.

- Matt

[wuwei]

I think this is a very valid question. The question I want to ask even more is how well a good internal partitioner will fare in a MMA competition?

I don't believe there is any difference in approach to going into real fights, testing your skills against another partitioner and entering competitions between internal styles and external styles. If you take out real fighting from an art, then it is not martial art, as simple as that.

Now a bit of historical anecdote. After the establishment of the Chinese Republic, wushu was finally being selected to be promoted as a national sports (after being banned for 3 hundred years during the Qing Dynasty). So to recruit capable martial artists to revitalise the art, a national no hold barred full contact competition was held in 1929 in Nanjing. This was the famous "First National Guoshu Exam in Nanjing". The competition was so fiece and injuries was so often that they had to stop the competition midway and announced the last 15 people still standing as winners. I don't have the full list of the 15 finalists here but I recall lots of internal stylists especially Xingyi and Baji people. So internal stylists did exceptionally well in those days although I don't know the exact rules of that competition either. Now fast forward to 70+ years later in a global arena, I would like to see internal stylists involve in modern competitions. And it is my big frustration to not see this happening.

[wutan]

Neil Rosiak from the Wudang style of tai chi Chuan in the UK has competed in a UFC type competition and it is recorded on video-Night of the samurai.
Neil has set up a new website www.fightingtaichi.com where you can see his training methods.
His students now compete in freestyle competitions.
Neil is a student of Dan Docherty who himself competed in the Asian Full contact open in the 1980's and won the heavyweight division.

Mark.

[notquitedead]

Matt, I seriously doubt that there is any evidence to support my opinion on the meaning of 'internal'. I don't even know what form that evidence would need to be in. :p It just makes sense to me.

All the martial arts have fighting techniques. Many of them have meditation and talk of 'ki', 'qi', or 'chi'. The only thing about tai chi, xing yi, and bagua (which seem to be the main three IMA) that is different is that they are based on taoism (Tao Te Ching, I Ching, the eight trigrams which I *think* are in the I Ching anyways, yin and yang, etc).

Some say that aikido is internal, but there are styles of karate that talk about ki almost or as much as aikido, and still aren't considered 'internal'. I think what they are trying to do is confused "internal and external" with "hard and soft". I still don't like using hard and soft to classify martial arts, either. 'Hard' and 'soft' may be a good way to describe how a person fights (defensive and evasive or aggressive and direct for example), but there is a difference between a person and a style.

[ZillaBilla]

"First National Guoshu Exam in Nanjing". The competition was so fiece and injuries was so often that they had to stop the competition midway and announced the last 15 people still standing as winners. I don't have the full list of the 15 finalists here but I recall lots of internal stylists especially Xingyi and Baji people. So internal stylists did exceptionally well in those days although I don't know the exact rules of that competition either.

Hey Wuwei,

I know of a few people that were involved in that competition. Firstly there was B. K. Frantzis's master - Liu Hung Chieh , and my great grand master Wu Tu Nan.

Here is a little bio in the former: www.energyarts.com/hires/library/masters/liuhung.html

and a bit on the latter:
www.namwahpai.com

Cheers.

ZB

[dustIn credible]

Because the UFC is only for meatheads that can hit hard.
The onlything close to a "meathead" ive seen in the UFC is Tank Abbott, only because he really had not style, he could, well, just hit hard.


ps

tank and genki sudo are my heros! I stive to look like tank and fight like genki :bang:

[wuwei]

Hi ZillaBilla, I can't figure out the chinese name of Liu Hung Chieh so couldn't look up information of him but I usually feel very uncomfortable when someone attributes supernatural power to a IMA master. Sign of a charlatan. I do heard about Wu Tu Nan as a famous Taiqi master thou.

[Matt_Bernius]

All the martial arts have fighting techniques. Many of them have meditation and talk of 'ki', 'qi', or 'chi'. The only thing about tai chi, xing yi, and bagua (which seem to be the main three IMA) that is different is that they are based on taoism (Tao Te Ching, I Ching, the eight trigrams which I *think* are in the I Ching anyways, yin and yang, etc).

Some say that aikido is internal, but there are styles of karate that talk about ki almost or as much as aikido, and still aren't considered 'internal'. I think what they are trying to do is confused "internal and external" with "hard and soft". I still don't like using hard and soft to classify martial arts, either. 'Hard' and 'soft' may be a good way to describe how a person fights (defensive and evasive or aggressive and direct for example), but there is a difference between a person and a style.
There is definitely a Taoist aspect in many of those arts. However, the aspect that seems far more important to the classification of Internal v. External is the arts implementation of the concept of "Fa Jing" and "Sung." Ki/Chi has nothing in my mind to do with whether an art is internal or external (though new age Guro's who have latched on to Tai Chi as a health art would disagree.... not that I give a hoot).

I do agree that at high levels I think there is not an easily discernable line between internal and external in most art as those practioners achive a high level of relaxed power in thier implementation of the arts.

- Matt

[alex_000]

Matt Bernius, I think Alex is just trying to say that skill plays a major factor in MMA now, because some other people keep trying to say it's more about determination and being a 'meathead'.

Yes most definitely. (who would say that being a meathead with determination is enough. There are thousands of meatheads with determination in my town , I don't see anyone fighting in the UFC). We just disagreed with Matt in whether Tank is a skilled fighter or not.

I still believe that Tank has skill. There are kinds of skills other people don't classify as "skills" . Tank's biggest skill is his balls and his toughness (in hitting and receiving). Maybe those are skills that have little to do with training, but i still count them as important skills. Matt probably classifies skill as perfection in a sertaing technique or style that is purely achieved by training (witch is also correct off course ), ..

Maybe we didn't quite disagree , we just disagree in the elements that make a skilled fighter , that classify as "skills".

[ZillaBilla]

I usually feel very uncomfortable when someone attributes supernatural power to a IMA master.

Hey Wuwei,

I feel the same on that, but I don't see what gives you that impression from the article.

Cheers.

[wuwei]

"Liu was able, by having his mind nonphysically contact my body, to use the energy in my body for literally moving me around the room when I practiced Walking the Circle."

Hey I would love to do that too! Sounds more like psychokinesis than MA to me.

[nzric]

Cool, walking the circle while you're floating 2ft off the ground!

[ZillaBilla]

Hey Wuwei,

I see what you mean. However, let me share an interesting experience with you, when I was teaching on of my friends Qi Gong. This form of Qi Gong I was teaching is quite complex and requires one to keep some very precise alignments while moving. I was watching my student to ascertain that he was doing things correctly. During one of these sessions I started to notice that while I was instructing my friend, and he was performing the Qi Gong, I would as I was giving instructions for specific Qi movement, very lightly repeat the movements within myself, these movements consisting of Qi and Yi. Though, doing this my Yi/intent was more with my friend as I was watching him to make sure he was doing things correctly. To my surprise I started to notice that when my intent would fall on one of his mistakes, my friend would correct this mistake without any signal from me. I specifically tried the same on several occasions and got the same results. I don’t think this sort of experience can be proven scientifically, especially in my case, I am just a beginner. It made me think though , that Qi/Yi can be moved from person to person, though this requires one to have a surplus of Qi & Yi. But I have also seen people go for Qi Gong therapy and be physically moved by the Qi Gong Master. Also during my training, when my Master was explaining how Qi moves in accordance with the eight internal energies, I think he may have done something similar to what is described above, to help me feel what each energies should feel like. Also (you may want to read my post in B.K.F. Fa Jing thread, though I did not include the info below there) when I got 'Fa Jinge'd', after the initial 'lift off' so to speak, I could feel as if I was being propelled further in the direction I was thrown, by a soft wave, which literally feels like a soft wave hitting you when you standing on the beach, except much softer but stronger.

Anyway this is what I've come across so far. So in my perspective I would not think that what is mentioned in B.K.F’s article is that bizarre, particularly when such phenomenon is going on between two apparently high level IMA’ists.

[nzric]

Back to the thread - I don't think an IMA UFC bout will ever happen for this simple reason:

If an IMA guy goes in and loses, the IMA crowd will always be able to say "he wasn't experienced enough/he didn't use the principles of IMA", and the only people who command real respect in the IMA world are grandmasters who are at least 60 years old.

The grandmasters have too much self respect to go into a competition like that, and even if they did, I think the EMA/MMA opponent would be a bit hesitant (and so would the sponsors) about trying to body tackle a 60yo and punch him repeatedly in the head.

[notquitedead]

and the only people who command real respect in the IMA world are grandmasters who are at least 60 years old.
Maybe if people started competing using IMA then they wouldn't have to train for 50 years to get some respect? :)

[daftyman]

Maybe if people started competing using IMA then they wouldn't have to train for 50 years to get some respect? :)
lol :)

I think you're missing the point.
A lot of traditional MAs are more than just fighting systems, they are also a means for self cultivation. Part of that being the avoidance of conflict.
The spiritual/philosophical side of these arts (and I am referring to both external and internal) changes how the person feels about fighting.

By starting to train in an art which does not compete in this way (UFC etc) you will not be driven towards it. There are other arts out there that are more geared towards UFC and its ilk. I realise that this is a generalisation, but the majority of these guys seem to be MMAists.

How about having and over 60 UFC? :D
actually, I doubt the IMA 'masters' would go for that either as they would not feel the need to prove themselves.

[notquitedead]

I don't know about 60 year olds competing in MMA. However, Dan Severn is over 50 I think he still actively competes (and wins). Randy Couture is 41, and I think there are some more up there in that range. They aren't really old or anything, but that's proof that you don't have to be twenty in order to compete.

What style you study doesn't completely change your personality. I've heard of IMA 'masters' who compete in full contact Lei Tai fights in China. You just don't see any competing on a high level against people who study other arts (as in other styles besides CMA).

[serious harm]

And Couture even shows that his experience and age, can be advantageous, over younger opponents. He did however, have a few problems with bigger opponents, but he was kicking Ricco's ass for the first 2 rounds, and Ricco's elbow to the eyeball victory was cheap. Barnett however, beat Couture. Who saw Barnett vs. Couture?

[notquitedead]

Dan Severn has won six of his eleven matches this year alone. He sure isn't letting age slow him down.

[Diego_Vega]

Well, actually an IMA guy did compete in one of the early UFC's. Thomas Ramirez, mid 40's and 300+ pounds, said that the UFC was afraid to allow "real kung-fu" into their matches. Advertising himself as a red sash in pa kua chang (sic), he claimed over 300 wins in no rules full contact matches in Puerto Rico and that his favourite technique was "slamming." He promptly got ko'd with a weak Don Frye jab in about 5 seconds. Was he any good? Couldn't tell, the fight didn't last long enough.

A former teacher of mine who was the grand daughter of Wang Ziping, told me that internal arts were for health and external arts were for fighting. She taught both. I asked about the tournaments in China which were won by internal artists and she said that the external artists always won but that the rich internal guys had the foreign students who wrote the books so they came off as the winner.

Could IMA do well in mma events? I honestly can't think of one IMA player I know or have heard of, who can use nothing but IMA techniques to do well in that type of event. It might not be the art, but instead the type of students that they attract.

[wuwei]

Zillabilla, I don't actually see your personal incident as too bizarre. My explanation (if you really want one) is that during the practice of your qigong, your friend and you acheived a high degree of concentration and awareness and so your friend were able to pick up very subtle muscular movement or "cues" from you and corrected his movement accordingly. You know, something along those lines. I just don't believe people can be moved by "qi" and I think it is unnecessary to "mystify" your master.

OK back to our topic. I just hate to see IMA going the pathway that it is leading now. That it is beyond all competitions and testing of real skills. That is just complete non-sense and plain bad excuses to me. IMA is no difference to other MA apart from a slight difference in philosophy, its approach to training and power generation. Just less than a century ago, no self-respecting IMAist would turn down the chance to test his skills. And as I said before, the 3 landmark full contact competitions held before the WWII were filled with winners doing IMA.