Thrusts:)

[br00ster]

ello`
Myself an a friend had a light spar yesterday with helms an gloves,we both had a laff an managed to try/remember new technique's footwork etc.
One thing that stuck in my head was the amount of times he was able to land thrusts to my face:eek:
It was somthing i was'nt even expecting being too busy avoiding his other hits.
Do you think if i never had a helmet on i'd be more aware of a stab/thrust?

Cheers... Ian

[YODA]

LOL!

I think if you hadn't had a helmet on you'd be MUCH more aware of the first thrust :D

Thrusts are WAY underated IMHO. Speaking from a fencing perspective I find that many people don't realise how fast & non-telegraphed a thrust from long range can be!

Thrusts are much easier to parry than most other strikes - but only if you see them coming! The use of thrusts and associated footwork in attack & defence is on my BIG list of stuff to research when I'm in LA with the Dog Brothers next month. Watch this space!

[Andrew Green]

Thrusts are very important, and very hard to defend against if they are done well. They can be rather ... sneaky.

Next time maybe try sparring with just thrusts, no other strikes. It will help get used to using and defending them. Reading a fencing book or taking a few fencing classes wouldn't hurt either.

[pgm316]

What do you mean by thrusts exactly? Is it a finger jab?

[Fergie Boy]

pgm316, you take a stick and poke someone with it; hard.

I find thrusts very hard to execute, very rarely do mine hit the target, but it is great when they do. They stop any forward momentum an attacker has if landed anywhere near the centre line and they take longer to recover from than other hits.

[pgm316]

Oh right, with a stick, I'm with you now!

I suppose they'd be effective after you've blocked, your opponent wouldn't expect it to be thrust in straight away! Especially the people that get into the rythem of blocking with one and striking with the other. I should practice more thrusts!

Good luck with the Dog Brothers Yoda, that'll be an experience! ;)

[dredleviathan]

Hey pgm,

Don't forget that the FMA view of things is that what can be done with a weapon applies to empty hand too. A thrust is a thrust whether from a staff, sword, stick, knife or arm/hand.

Of course the application varies but the principles remain the same.

Fergie boy - have you tried training your thrusts against hook & jab pads with centre-points on them? Its not something that we did in lessons but liek you I found that my thrusts never hit where I wanted. One of my trainign partners and I used the focus mitts to work this quite successfully.

Having said that we don't work on thrusts often enough in my opinion.

Who are you training with in LA Yoda? Lucky guy...

[pgm316]

Hi Dred, I don't know a great deal about FMA, but I've heard a lot about how they train with weapon first then learn empty hand. I think its a good idea. Training empty hand feels quite tame after months of stick fighting! ;)

[Fergie Boy]

Focus pads, huh? sounds like it could work. Thanks dredleviathan I'll try that out tomorrow.

[YODA]

Originally posted by dredleviathan


Who are you training with in LA Yoda? Lucky guy...

I'm going over for 5 days - I'll be training mainly with Marc Denny & Eric Knaus i.e. "The Dog Brothers"

Woof :D

Also planning on getting some time in at the Inosanto Academy & The Gracie Academy.

[dredleviathan]

Yoda, if you need a bag carrier just call!

Fergie boy, just go easy on your partner's writsts! :p The other alternative is to use those TKD-type paddles. Partner places it, you thrust... that kind of thing.

Do any of you do any accuracy training for any other parts of your stick work?

[michael]

brooster,

never take off you mask when you sparring with your friend arnis can be lethal, train hard train save!

[shortstick]

The great protective gear debate! For sure you will pay attention more to taking a shot without your head gear, but it could or will save you a tooth from a thurst shot. It also depends on the skill of the guy beating on you. Think about your eyes too. If you are going all out, then the head and eye protection are needed I think. When you do that it shoud be in short rounds so you and your partner can take note of strikes that are being landed to vital parts. Then go back an drill on def/counters to that area. Another way to go is with a lightly padded stick. You will still get bumps and bruises but less chance of doing real damage. Have fun!

[moromoro]

very strange, i think you just gotta keep practicing.

It was somthing i was'nt even expecting being too busy avoiding his other hits.
Do you think if i never had a helmet on i'd be more aware of a stab/thrust?

you should not be trying to expect anything just be able to react properly to his attacks....the speed and power of a stab to the face is far less than a slash....i think you where just expecting certain attacks and of course got surprised by the face stabs......keep training


terry

[Cudgel]

Originally posted by moromoro

you should not be trying to expect anything just be able to react properly to his attacks....the speed and power of a stab to the face is far less than a slash....i think you where just expecting certain attacks and of course got surprised by the face stabs......keep training


terry

I beg to difffer. while the power of a thrust is ofetn time lesser than a slash or cut it is quiet fast. And while a thrust to a lesser vital area will not instantly kill it can cripple or kill slowly. ANd a thrust to the heart or the eye or mouth or armpit can be instant death.

A slash on the other hand while being more telegraphed can be harder to block. And it can often end a fight quicker as it causes more tissue damage and trauma.

This is however IMHO

[YODA]

Hey Cudgel

I'd agree with you IF we were talking about sword fighting. However we are talking about stick fighting.

[Cudgel]

stick sword its all the same a long pokity thing.

*shrugs* you are right sorry
*gets back into his box*

[YODA]

LOL!

Similar? Yes.

The same? Nope.

Personally I find thrusts with a stick very useful - but I'm pretty sure that's down to my fencing background.

[Martelo3000]

Hey,

A hockey throat guard is worth considering if you and your sparring partner are including thrusts. Sometime the bibs of a different fencing mask isn't low enough.





:)

[Louie]

Personally I find thrusts with a stick very useful - but I'm pretty sure that's down to my fencing background.

In WMA some single sticks had a leather tube in the hilt which when using a strong thrust, the hilt/hand would slide forward along the stick.

Despite it's effectivness the thrust seems to have been considered too dangerous (to the throat/sternum) and thrusting in single-stick bouts was dropped from 'official' competitions in the late 1800's...
The Royal Navy's 1930's single-stick 'Calpe' (Gibralter) Rules, No.7 'As in the sabre, cuts should be either vertical or horizontal: but unlike sabre the point is dangerous in line and must not be held there or used at all. It follows that parries should be horizontal (to meet the vertical cut at head), or vertical in all other cases'.

Louie

[Martelo3000]

In WMA some single sticks had a leather tube in the hilt which when using a strong thrust, the hilt/hand would slide forward along the stick.

Despite it's effectivness the thrust seems to have been considered too dangerous (to the throat/sternum) and thrusting in single-stick bouts was dropped from 'official' competitions in the late 1800's...
The Royal Navy's 1930's single-stick 'Calpe' (Gibralter) Rules, No.7 'As in the sabre, cuts should be either vertical or horizontal: but unlike sabre the point is dangerous in line and must not be held there or used at all. It follows that parries should be horizontal (to meet the vertical cut at head), or vertical in all other cases'.

Louie

Hi Louie!

Pretty interesting stuff. In competitions, I guess the need for more stringent regulation is required, as the competitors are there to "win" and will not hold back.

In our club's full contact sparring, we are training each other and know each other, so we more or less pull thrusts, and rarely knee or punyo (short end of the stick). We also show reasonable restraint for throws and when it goes to the ground because there are no mats. Though we try to "win", ultimately, we are there to help each other become better fighters. So if someone is much better than another, instead of lambasting the person into gravy, the experienced fighter can safely try some newer techniques or tactics, and fight just a bit harder than the less experienced to help push the sparring partner to a higher level. When its equally matched, the fighting is generally much harder and fiercer, but both fighters are in agreement about intensity before the match starts. We ultimately follow the DB creed of being friends at the end of the day.

From another thread in the Filipino MA forum, there is the discussion regarding Kali in the SEA Games. What are your thoughts about the issues regarding martial arts "sportification" from your WMA perspective?

Cheers!

[shootodog]

thrusts are awfully underrated in fma. they're effective if you could get them into play. usually used to the throat, to the eyes, and the midsection.

done well, this could end it pretty quick. it's just not too applicable in sport because of all the protection on the eyes, and throat area.

[Louie]

Hi Martelo3000

We ultimately follow the DB creed of being friends at the end of the day.

I'm studying an older version of single-stick which includes disarms, trips & throws, etc. and am very interested in the DB philosophy.
I am also attempting to contact single-stick veterans who were involved in the art in the 60's, 70's, 80's & 90's and will be meeting a retired Naval commander this year who re-introduced singlestick back in the Royal Navy back in the 80's, and still claims the title of singlestick & cudgels champion!

From another thread in the Filipino MA forum, there is the discussion regarding Kali in the SEA Games. What are your thoughts about the issues regarding martial arts "sportification" from your WMA perspective?

Single-stick was in the Olympic Games at the turn of the last century, in 1904 the singlestick gold medal was won by an American fencer Albertson Van Zo Post, on loan to Cuba for the Games.
The "Sportification" of stick/sword fencing over such a long period of time has resulted in the view that western arts (including boxing) have lost much of the "martial" aspect.

Louie

[Martelo3000]

Regarding your interest in DB, my head instructor is a DB, so we play their rules for full contact. (The two other intructors are not DB affiliated but they fight full contact) I haven't attended a gathering (yet), so if you are interested in the details of DB philosophy then I guess YODA is your man.

Single-stick was in the Olympic Games at the turn of the last century, in 1904 the singlestick gold medal was won by an American fencer Albertson Van Zo Post, on loan to Cuba for the Games.
The "Sportification" of stick/sword fencing over such a long period of time has resulted in the view that western arts (including boxing) have lost much of the "martial" aspect.

Louie


Wow, Louie! That's very interesting. Do you know what the Olympic rules were and why it is no longer in the Olympic Games? Also, please share your views regarding the effects of "sportification", do you agree or disagree with the view that western arts have lost "martial" aspects and why?. Do you think this would be a danger to any martial art or do you think the negative effects can be avoided by the people who train/teach/care?

I can see the threat of how thrusts can be forgotten because they aren't used as much in active sparring, and not because they are not effective but because of the danger to your partner. However, you can train thrusts against a tire by adding it into the mix when you practice full power hits and targeting (against a swinging tire). Another special kind of thrust is two handed grip thrusts, used at medium or close range. I see it as possible to pull long range thrusts in sparring, but its kinda tricky to pull off the closer ranger thrusts safely, because of the full body torque in execution necessary at close range.

[Louie]

[QUOTE=Martelo3000]if you are interested in the details of DB philosophy then I guess YODA is your man.

Yes, I've had the good fortune of meeting Yoda and experiencing his great hospitality, before a Marc Denny seminar, so l'm looking forward to Yoda's own up n' coming seminar in the next few months. Whenever I get the opportunity I also cross sticks with Elhiggito who is a CEA instructor under Yoda....

Wow, Louie! That's very interesting. Do you know what the Olympic rules were and why it is no longer in the Olympic Games?

I have the British Army & Navy Rules and the one's in use for the Highland Games but have yet to come across the olympic version or any additional info regarding this 'sport' at the games.

Do you think this would be a danger to any martial art or do you think the negative effects can be avoided by the people who train/teach/care?

Not all western arts have lost their "martial" aspects, there are still a few "Classical" Fencing instructors with a lineage to former masters, who simulate as closely as possible a real fight with sharp swords, many of them see the "olympic style" of fencing as a high-tech game bearing little resemblance to an actual duel.

Unfortunately, the negative effect of "sportification" has been that an entire generation of Europeans have grown up having seen nothing and known nothing of WMA but olympic style and theatrical 'movie' fencing....

Despite the damage, a few individuals, groups and military establishments have maintained some of the combative aspects of WMA, the danger is (from my experience) many of the people involved are in retirement age....

Louie

[Louie]

These Singlestick Rules from “Cassell’s Book of Sports and Pastimes”, c. 1880 - 1900 are from around the same period as the Olympic matches....

The rules laid down for independent practice with sticks should be adhered to as strictly as possible; though it is difficult always to combine a light hand with rapidity.

RULES:

1 – The cut and thrust must not be given too strongly, so as to cause irritation and anger.

2 – Each cut or thrust to be acknowledged by the person touched, passing the stick into the left hand, the opponent recovering to an engaging guard.

3 – The combat to be renewed out of distance, the parties coming within it cautiously.

4 – No two cuts or thrusts to be given upon the same lunge. In the case of a mutual hit, the cut given in the third position to be reckoned only.

5 – All cuts being made from a defensive position, such must be returned to after a successful cut or thrust is made.

6 – No practice to be allowed without masks; and as the stick is the substitute for the sword, the cut can only be considered effective when given with that part which corresponds with the edge, nor should any movement be attempted with the stick which would not be risked in a combat with swords.

Louie

[Airyu]

Hello All,

Thrusting is an important and overlooked aspect of your fighting tactics. A good thrust to the face(mask) will snap your opponent's head back with jarring force, and open them up for many follow up strikes. When training with Ray Floro, (who also has a large fencing background) he would slip my strike and successful score a hit. He would also use the stick in the reverse position and still score tremendous strikes (very deceptive). Be wary of your training equipment when practicing thrusting to the head, sticks tend to fray and pieces can easily penetrate the masks. Currently we have been using combinations of hockey helmets, pvc/and foam padded sticks, as well as fencing masks, or WEKAF helmets and rattan for this type of practice.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net

[shootodog]

500th post and i still make no sense.

as for the equipment, just a couple of thoughts...

1) a fencing mask is good for the face and head but does not protect the collarbone (which can be broken by a simple abanico/ pintok).

2) the arnisador mask is good but blocks some of the peripheral vision. it also stifles head mobility (in contrast to a fencing mask). it is really heavy too.

3) a hockey mask has no throat protection.

4) you can tape the ends (the tips that hit) of the baston to retard fraying.

[Plywood]

500th post and i still make no sense.
Actually you make a lot of sense sometimes. Congrats on the 500 posts.

as for the equipment, just a couple of thoughts...

1) a fencing mask is good for the face and head but does not protect the collarbone (which can be broken by a simple abanico/ pintok).

Yes, I've experienced this too. But usually by accident with oddly co-ordinated training partners.

3) a hockey mask has no throat protection.

Well, except for a goalie mask. They also have a wrap around throat protector that is worn under the helmet/facemask's built in throat protector. ITech makes good products. The problem, however, lies with the wire face mask. The holes are too big and will easily allow in any kind of saksak or piercing thrust. The plastic shields are better.

[shootodog]

thanks plywood.

as they say, compliments enhance our sense of hearing!

just another thought: fencing masks don't protect the back of your head. it might bad if you're all angled out and your sparring partner goes for a head shot.

[Airyu]

Hello Guys,

All sparring gear has some limitations, that is why a blended variety of gear will help enhance your training. Fencing, Hockey, WEKAF helmets, all have their quirks, so train with all of them and train safe!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net