How many forms do you do and why?

[daftyman]

How many different forms do you practice?

I have seen on many schools' sites, that their curriculums (curriculae? Curriculi?) contain all sorts of different forms.

I also see that quite a few folk cross train in other form-based arts (particularly Hsing-i and Pa Kua).

Do you feel that you need to do a large variety of forms, or just a couple? Why do you do so many/so few?

Curious to hear what you guys think about this.

[Shadowdh]

At the moment I only practice Chen style... I have dabbled with other MA in the past but find that Chen taiji fits me best... I will also look at doing Yang style (108 form) in another 6 months or so if I have a handle on laojia yi lu... I would think that practicing a couple of forms would give more depth to your knowledge of training and also you would have more variety... I wouldnt want to learn many more than 2 though as it may get confusing and also the time constraints to say the least would be huge... I feel that you could do fine with one but 2 or 3 perhaps at most would give better understanding and would also keep you flexible... you would also want to keep quality in your forms... too many forms and that may suffer... at least thats what I think... if you have five or six MA on the go which one does take precedence.. at least with 2 or 3 you are more able to devote time needed to train/practice... hope that makes sense...

[daftyman]

I am asking this to find out what other people think. Personally I do three different forms (CMC form, sword form and sabre) I also do push-hands, da lu and sword fencing) I have enough difficulty practicing all these, at the moment.

I've been practicing the solo for for about 5 years and the sword form for over three. The sabre was done more as a bit of fun and partly because there was a desire among the students to learn it (it was not part of the curriculum before). It had been mentioned during sword workshops and people got curious. I asked our teacher to teach it to us (he had learned it with a previous organisation).

I have no real desire to learn a new form, although I would attend a workshop to explore what other systems are like.

I am just curious to hear what other people think.

[RobP]

Traditionally in Yang style hand forms were split into large, middle or small frame. Each was the same form practiced in different ways to develop different things. Add to that sword, staff, broadsword, spear, halberd and that's about it.

To practice just one form for ever would be akin to staying in the same year at school (I was told). So perhaps the important thing is not how many forms you practice, but knowing why you practice each one.

[daftyman]

....To practice just one form for ever would be akin to staying in the same year at school (I was told). So perhaps the important thing is not how many forms you practice, but knowing why you practice each one.
I am curious about this opinion, I appreciate it is a view that was passed to you and not necessarily your own.

What is the minimum? This is a question for everybody.

[Shadowdh]

All the literature I have read points to a time line roughly like this... for Chen style lao jia yi lu it will take about 6-8 months for me to learn the whole form and then about 3-4 years to become profficient in it and then perhaps another 6-10 to become very good at it... of course this is a general time line...

[wutan]

I agree with Rob in that there is to me no point in just doing the forms so that they are basically a movement and having no theory (i.e.Tai Chi-If a Tai chi form) or substance to them.

I do often wonder where some people get the time to learn and practise many forms and it may be that they have managed to get the theory and concept in one art which has given them the basis to learn other arts employing the same theory and therefore manage to learn them much quicker.
The chinese have a saying that 'A thousand knives, but none of them sharp' which as you will gather is no good.
It is better to have 'one ' sharp knife!

Our style which is derived from the Wu family style has a teaching form which is called the square form,the round form which is the same moves from the square form but practised in a more free flowing manner.
The weapon forms which are the Spear,Broadsword and Straightsword.
Naturally we have the pushing hand sets of which there are 8 major sets.
We also do pushing or sticking spears.

So there is a fair bit to our curriculum and if you add the applications both on hand and weapons forms in to the mix then there is much to learn and practise and some would say to your dying day, without attempting to learn forms from other styles etc.

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has learned many different styles and forms.
Interestingly enough Adam Hsu who is a well known Chines Martial Art teacher and writer has said himself that although he learned Tai Chi,Bagua and other Chinese arts purely because this was a traditional thing for his family to do,he still feels that this is really not the way to practise and is not conducive to ultimately grasping a deep understanding of the chosen martial art.

Cheers,

Mark.

[oldyangtaiji]

I also agree with RobP. In Yang TJQ you progress through Large Frame -> Middle Frame -> Small Frame. The form is almost the same but is practiced in different ways. :love:
Yang style has cca. 37 postures. You can do all the movements/forms you like but you always train this "37 postures". :Angel:
My opinion is that is not good to learn (different) forms from different schools. If you choose one school/style you must work only that! The worst thing is to mix TJQ with others martial arts (such Hsing-i and Pa Kua). :woo:

[daftyman]

I originally posed the question because there do seem to be form collectors out there, though none seem to be in this discussion. They always want to know more and more moves in the mistaken belief that knowing 20 different forms makes them 20 times better than someone knowing 1.

I find it gratifying that so many people are putting substance into their practice and working on principles as opposed to choreography.

This does lead me to ask one more question.

The Yang style is stated in numerous sources to have a variety of frame sizes. (I believe other styles have a similar idea to them). Is the change from the large to the medium fram sudden, or merely a progression as different principles come into play? I am thinking it must be a gradual process. Is this correct?

[Shadowdh]

I have read and heard that the change in size in the style comes gradually and is mainly due to the students ability... we start large to imprint the movement into our system, then the movements become more compact as our ability increases... of course you can also learn small frame from the get go... I am still too new at this to do anything other than large movements...

[RobP]

"I am thinking it must be a gradual process. Is this correct?"

Yes and no. It is gradual in that you will spend a certian amoint of time on large frame before moving to medium. It is not gradual inthat they are taught as separate forms rather than gradually "morphing" into each other.

There are also different sets of exercises to go with each form.

To further confuse the issue Yang forms can also be practiced in high, mid or low stance (crane, tiger, snake).

[ZillaBilla]

From what I learned from my master and our school is as follows.

The importance is in the ‘Qi’.

In our school before you start learning the first form, which is the 24 pattern. You must first spend around 50 hours practicing ‘Qi Gong’ to develop your health, ‘Qi’ and intent.

After the above, the form is learned, the ‘Qi Gong’ training never stops. Then after the form can be done naturally, the ‘Qi’/intent or internal movements are added to the form. The movements in this form externally and internally are flat, i.e. they don’t twist much. This level develops flat ‘jing’. The development of this internal energy is then tested by breaking bricks.

After the above has been learned, the ‘Qi Gong’ is upgraded to more spiralling practices, in order to teach how to spiral the ‘Qi’/intent. In order to facilitate the learning of spiralling ‘Qi’, the 108 broadsword form is learned. Externally this form contains a lot of twisting/spiralling movements, due to the broadsword being primarily a slashing weapon. Once the form is mastered externally, the spiralling ‘Qi’ that has been practiced alongside is added to the form. This develops spiralling ‘jing’ The development of this internal energy is then tested by breaking coconuts.

However, if you practice a lot of ‘Qi Gong’ and develop spiralling ‘Qi’/intent, You can put internally spiralling ‘Qi’ in to a flat movement, or any movement for that matter. The reason for this is that ‘Qi’ is internal and at high levels does not have to correspond with the nature of the external movement.

In other words, what I’m trying to say is that you can practice 10 forms everyday for 10 hours, and yet when they are tested they are empty/no ‘Qi’. The importance is in developing ‘Qi’, and certain forms will externally facilitate in developing specific movements of ‘Qi’. But at the end of the day it is better to know one form that is fully internalised than 10 that are empty. Then again it is also better to know 10 forms that are fully internalised than knowing only one.

[daftyman]

Yes and no. ...... It is not gradual in that they are taught as separate forms rather than gradually "morphing" into each other.
......
To further confuse the issue Yang forms can also be practiced in high, mid or low stance (crane, tiger, snake).
Does this mean that you have to unlearn the previous frame/stance before embarking on the next phase?

[daftyman]

The importance is in the ‘Qi’.
.... tested by breaking bricks.
.... tested by breaking coconuts.
....
Then again it is also better to know 10 forms that are fully internalised than knowing only one.
Apologies for the editing of the quote (just read the original post for the context.

Qi: such a personal thing, like one's relationship with God and I do not want to use this argument/reason. Too many topics in the IMA section discussing this already.

Breaking bricks and coconuts? Really? sounds painful.

I guess that there are incredibly few folk that will be able to fully internalise 10 forms. It all boils down to quality and not quantity.

[RobP]

"Does this mean that you have to unlearn the previous frame/stance before embarking on the next phase?"

Why would you have to un-learn them? You are just practicing them in a different way, like doing a different swimming stroke, or learning a new language, you don't unlearn what you already know.

ZIll Billa - that sounds very different from the trad family route. The large frame is seen as the foundation, building up the external body as it does. The 24 step is seen as a simplified form.

I also never heard of breaking bricks or coconuts as a test in taiji. The first weapon taught is the staff to develop jing.

Qigong training is inherent inthe forms, along with various supplementary exercises, standing post, nei gung, etc

[daftyman]

RobP thanks for clearing that up. I was curious to hear what the 'other side' did.

[ZillaBilla]

Our school seems to be quite different from what I know of other schools (which is not that much), I think it might be a combined art, though we do learn ‘Tai Chi’ specifically under that title, and there are other disciplines taught as well. The master who started our school and developed its training methods was the lineage disciple and adopted son of master Wu Tu Nan, who in turn was a student of Yang Shao Hou and Wu Chien Chuan. Furthermore, the founder Sim Po Ho was also a student of Ba Gua and Xin Yi, as well as some Shaolin arts from a very young age. So indeed it may have different training methods from the traditional ways. In fact I've noticed that, we spend much more time on 'Qi Gong' than most schools (from my limited knowledge), and our forms are not externally as circular and have a specific 'Qi Gong' based move in the transitional parts of the different movements in some forms. With regards to breaking bricks and coconuts, well I have not broken any coconuts, but when breaking bricks you don’t really feel anything other than the 'Qi', I hear its the same for the coconuts. Check out the website if you wish www.namwahpai.com .

[rosietai]

HI,

I do 6 taiji forms and 3 (+) qigong patterns

I do yang 24, tai chi arthritis, for diabetes and am in the process of learning 32 sword and one of the single fan routines.

I also do shibashi 1, pearl of immortality - a continuous ball routine, Mandarin duck (9 qigong moves) and rising dragon another continuous movement form. I can competently follow bamboo mountain, bone marrow washing, eight pieces of brocade and I break into hysterics at Ball 2 and mandarin duck 2 there are so many turns with out timing that I literally can end up facing the wrong direction.

Clearly I am not expert or even good at all of these. But I improve every time I practice - some days / weeks certain forms don't appeal - I stopped doing the 37 because I got dizzy on the turns.

Do I do them to the same depth as someone who only does one - unlikely.

I don't remember them all the time - but I have good notes and crib sheets. When I feel a form is going 'off' (I can feel it) I get out the book (mine words and poser illustrations) and check every step and posture for accuracy.

I like the variety - of sensations and moves. It keeps me on my toes and I don't get stuck in a rut repeating the same moves without thought or intent.

An entirely personal approach and not one suited to the ma world. I do it for health and relaxation - so don't have the added requirement of trying to stay alive (joke!)

[xuande]

My SiFu has always told us that there is no need to go beyond the first form or two. Is it nice to know them, yes. It won't make your Tai Chi better though. I currently only have (Yang) 5 Pattern, 5 Pattern Sword, 2 person 5 Pattern sword and the first 1/3 of Wudan fist. I have picked up quite a few chi gungs though, since each will focus on different areas of chi development I don't see it as just picking up another piece just for the sake of having another. Now the form I do want to learn just because it is so cool is 2 person 54 pattern sword.

[MartialArtsSnob]

There are as many thoughts on this as there are teachers. Personally I have a very large number of forms and to make matters worse I have discarded more than I now know. Knowing 1 form very well is a very good way to train. Knowing many forms well is another very good way to train. I have found that every form has a "flavor" to it, some principal that it tries to emphasize. Since these principals are in every form one can choose what to work on by the choice of form. Then apply that training to another form. I can take a movement in a Karate or Wing Chun form and see that same movements in a Tai Chi form this will help understand the application. Similarly I will see how I am supposed to do a Karate technique with proper body dynamics by my understanding of the same movement in Hsing-I etc...

[moononthewater]

My teacher Nigel Sutton gives us a new form to play with every time he comes over but it is up to the individual if you want to keep practising it. We have some basic forms to work with CMC, Fast Tai Chi form, San Shou, Walking stick, straight sword and broadsword forms. Not every one will do all these forms but they tend to be the basics for those of us who are anoraks he will teach us what we have an interest in. I also like a 64 step ba gua form he taught me. I also practise a san feng sword and pole form. He has shown us a few other forms a san feng slow form which i really like but was a bit much amongst them. I am hoping he might show me some silat next time. As for getting the time i make it even if i only have 20 minutes i will go out in the back garden and practise. I dont want loads of forms but each form has its own learning experiences. As to if i will ever make them perfect if i do that why would i carry on training.

[Syd]

Great thread gents, nice to see everyone out of the woodwork. I agree with those who suggest that there are as many ideas on what should be taught, when and how, as there are forms themselves; it does tend to vary. There are the traditional or classical views within the Yang family which are rarely adhered to anymore, teaching Jian after ten years of empty hand training for instance and not a day before. This does not take the student on merit and allow for individual progress. Some may achieve great skill in five years rather than ten and be ready by five or even less in some cases. Certainly, some may never be ready.

Personally I train in the Yang Cheng Fu 108, Yang Sabre/Dao, Yang Jian/Sword, Yang Short Staff, Old Yang Style set, Small San Sau, Push Hands, Lung Har Chuan, Chin Na, Dim Mak, Shuia Jiao various Qigongs and many varying drills, applications and training techniques within the Yang family tradition. I am looking at Xing Yi as my companion art and know many who study Yang Taiji who have taken Bagua due to the fact that my main teacher also studies Bagua. I see no problem or conflict of interest with studying a second internal art and infact this is common among internal stylists.

All of the above keeps me flat out busy but these are all aspects or subsets of my Taijiquan and are a part of a larger whole. If the question was why do I train these, I'd merely state that I see them as an important part of my natural skill set and training curriculum as a Yang Style practitioner and nothing more. I certainly don't feel a need to collect forms to feel like I'm achieving anything. The weapons forms are a vital part of jing training in Yang Style and they are an extention of the open hand forms which also begin the process of learning to issue Qi at more advanced stages as well as fajin through extention.

Thats me, Syd.

[Shadowdh]

After rereading this thread and having a think (ouch it hurts :)...) I see that most would consider the different forms in each style to be wholly seperate and not just a part of the whole... eg in Chen you can do Lao jia yi lu and er lu, sword, staff etc etc... but I would consider them not to be wholly seperate and thus counted as say 4 but one style with variations... I would more consider that doing Chen, Yang and say CMC would or should be counted as 3...

[daftyman]

I like the way you put that shadowdh, I am beginning to feel that it does not matter what movements you do, but the principles driving those movements.

So, if you are studying yang, or one of its offshoots, then you should be able to do any or all of the forms of that style, without any difficulty. As you say its when you try to mix styles that things could get a bit tricky.

My only consideration is that the student should get a firm base in the solo form, before rushing off to do weapons, additional solo forms etc. Get the principles working, and then go and explore the rest of the art. I feel that there are some people out there who forget this, so only end up knowing lots of mechanical movements, but there's just no 'substance' to their taiji. It's just fluff.

[Shadowdh]

I like the way you put that shadowdh, I am beginning to feel that it does not matter what movements you do, but the principles driving those movements.

So, if you are studying yang, or one of its offshoots, then you should be able to do any or all of the forms of that style, without any difficulty. As you say its when you try to mix styles that things could get a bit tricky.

My only consideration is that the student should get a firm base in the solo form, before rushing off to do weapons, additional solo forms etc. Get the principles working, and then go and explore the rest of the art. I feel that there are some people out there who forget this, so only end up knowing lots of mechanical movements, but there's just no 'substance' to their taiji. It's just fluff.


I am glad you understood what I meant... I was worried I didnt make sense...

I totally agree with you on the issue of learning the solo form before moving on though... a building is only as good as its foundation after all...

[Mut Sao]

tai chi is tai chi... regardless of style the principles remain the same... look at push hands yang, chen or wu(hao) all look different in form but in push hands display the same principles. while i believe learning a great number of forms impedes understanding principles it is not for the differences(or similarities for that matter) that i believe this. it is for the time required to simply remember the order of the form... this time IMO serves far better understanding principles of the form. having said this my tai chi teacher teachs both chen and wu(hao) styles... he has been training only these 2 styles for 40 years.

[noblenicky]

And thus I would only go to teachers who specialises his training in a certain style. I never quite buy into schools who teach more than 5-6 styles.

[Mut Sao]

ditto... through my kung fu training i realise the difficulty of training a plethora of forms. it really becomes more a workout for your memory than for you skill cultivation

[cloudz]

I agree that to know and practice too many forms is pretty hard and ultimately comes down to time and how much you can give to it. Practice being the most important factor as many of you will know how quickly and easily your form suffers/ doen't improve when you don't practice regularly.

It took me a shade under 2 years to finish learning the old yang style, and now that I have been regularly practicing it and after lots of corrections now feel ready to go for learnig a new form. Some of my senior classmates learnt the New Yang form previously (before I started) and my teacher has indicated that I will at some point also learn this form. Which he also indicated I would not find too difficult to learn after doing the old yang form. Also in the pipeline (not too far away I hope), we will also learn the yang jian (straight sword) form.

In the meantime I have taken it upon myself (after having read of the benefits) to learn my form to the opposite side. And may I say WOW! I can't begin to say how worthwhile I am finding this practice. Without going into too much details, its a great experience- its something you can teach yourself. In a lot of ways it is like being a beginner again, only you are teaching yourself something you already 'know'. The new sensations are pretty strong, some movements/postures feel more comfortable/natural the 'other' way and some harder and more awkward. I think the biggest benefit though is balance and bringing both ying and yang to different areas. Its good for the health aspect and also martial. Highly recommended

Sorry I've digressed enough, back to the point, for me (regular job/girlfriend family/friends etc.) just practicing the above well would probably be more than enough (I also practice japanese sword) to handle.

to sum up definitely go for quality over quantity and do what you can well in the time you have, and if you haven't got the time to do something justice don't do it ( i'm aiming this at internal forms practice- due to their nature) remember you will be also going for different speeds/stances etc. which also adds to the practice requirements.

[axelb]

I practise many forms, all help me with different things

The 24 short Yang form is the only Taichi form I've learnt,

I started Chen style also, but it was mainly for the qigong practises in the lesson, I didn't particularly want to learn another form at this stage.

In kungfu I practise many different styles of forms,
lohan, nothern shaolin, southern shaolin, long stick, short stick. Northen 2 person forms, southern 2 person forms.
All help me with different aspects of my techniques.
The basics cross over in some forms so it is easy to get the hang of some forms quickly.

There was a stage when I was doing WuShu forms also:
NanQuan, NanGun, QiangShu, GunShu.
I found they helped alot with my flexibility and endurance which helped my fighting in many ways. I've not practised them for a long time now, and I'm saving the space in my brain for the traditional forms. I think much more and my head would explode. :cry:

I have a few forms that I practise often as well as many other techniques, and the rest of the forms I practise not as often as I don't have that much time for it.

I tend to concentrate on one or 2 form(s) mostly for a session then I can get most out of what I'm doing, then another time I will practise those forms breifly and go over other forms.