So, what are you?

[Freeform]

Right I've been prompted to start these thread by the discussion on competition in the aikido forum.

How many of you have read Musashi's Book of Five Rings? In the opening chapters he describes the difference between a Martial Artist and a Martialist. For modern times I'd like to include on of my own the 'Martial Athlete'.

Martialist: one who's life is their training, somebody who can cut their opponent down without thinking. A warrior.

Martial Artist: someone who trains for health/self defence, the taking of a life is at best an extreme action done only when nothing else can be done.

Martial Athlete: a sporting person, who views martial arts in the same context as football, volley ball etc. Who's aim is to compete and prove themselves against others.

I've got my views, now I'd like to hear yours.

Thanx

[pesilat]

By the definitions you give, I'd consider myself somewhere between a "Martial Artist" and a "Martialist" ... my training is my first priority in life (aside from friends/family, of course) ... but I also consider my training to be for health and self defense. I wouldn't hesitate to take someone's life I felt it was necessary ... but it would be a last resort.

Mike

[waya]

I would have to say Martialist. I do nothing but work and train other than what time I spend on here. And even then I am learning about more training..

[Melanie]

Martialist: one who's life is their training, somebody who can cut their opponent down without thinking. A warrior.

Martial Artist: someone who trains for health/self defence, the taking of a life is at best an extreme action done only when nothing else can be done.

I'm a Martial Artist wanting to be a Martialist? Not quite a warrior yet though :(

Melanie

[Chazz]

I would think i am a full Mix of a Martial Artist and a Martialist.
I hate fighting more than any thing. I do what i can to stay out of one. I think the dumbest thing you can do in life is to fight over stupid things, But i train so that if i HAVE to get into a fight my mind works without me thinking and i end what they have started quickly.

-Chazz

[Andy Murray]

Sorry freeform, but I can't put myself in any of these categories.

What about Martian?

[Freeform]

I would like to think of myself as a martialist, but how many of us could actually cut down someone with no thought or hesitation? Is it something you would strive to be? Wouldn't the responsibilty of your own abilities be a burden?

[waya]

It's not a way you can train as a hobby or extra activity. It has to become a way of life. I find myself looking at everything differently than most people. I will avoid any confrontation if I can, but if I cannot I will do what is necessary to end it as well. I don't think being of the warrior mind is so much about eliminating your opponent as it is about knowing your skill and using that knowledge to diffuse a possibly hostile situation without violent means and staying calm and mentally composed at all times. Knowing you can and are prepared to inflict serious damage to another person if it becomes necessary will teach you to eliminate hostility through other means so that you rarely have to use any of the violent skills you train anymore. A complicated thing to explain for me. I know how I feel when confronted but I can't put it to words well.

Rob

[khafra]

I'd have to label myself as a martial dilletante, actually. I've learned about many different styles, but I'm not past the beginner level in any of them.
Hopefully that'll change when I get to D.C.; although I didn't see any groups there listed off of Park Bok Nam's website, and it's 113 miles from Washington to Richmond, VA.

[pesilat]

I know a guy near DC ... Gaithersburg, MD specifically, who teaches JKD, Kali, and Silat (and some other things too). He's a good guy and a good martial artist. His name is Mike Krivka.

Here's the URL for his school's webpage: http://www.martialartskoncepts.com/

Mike

[Pablo]

[i]...when I get to D.C.; although I didn't see any groups there listed off of Park Bok Nam's website, and it's 113 miles from Washington to Richmond, VA. [/B]


Try e-mailing the Richmond school, it is the world headquarters, and they may be able to give you some helpful information about senior studentc or instructors in DC or the DC area.

As far as the drive, I used to get off duty after working a midnight shift, and drive 90 miles to Park's school and it was well worth the effort, plus he was very accomodating to anyone who travelled to train.

take care

paul

[Freeform]

Alright, I haven't seen anybody out there claim the title of martial arts athlete, is that something that people on this forum are afraid to do?

What I mean to say is that where I class myself in the 'Artist' catagory I have entered a few tournements in my time. Does that mean I'm 'diluting the form' by binding myself with rules?

Can any of us say we are artists/martialist due to the rules and constraints we place on ourself in the dojo?

Thanx

[waya]

What do you mean by rules and constraints?

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Freeform

Can any of us say we are artists/martialist due to the rules and constraints we place on ourself in the dojo?

Thanx [/B]

You mean like "Don't really hurt/kill your partner"?

If thats what you mean then no, no living ethical beings could classify themselves as martial artists because they always hold back.

[Mike O'Leary]

Interesting comments... I have been training for a long time. That does not make me anything special in the great chain of events but it does mean that I have read musashi and it also means that i have pondered this question also. For a long time I often thought that I trained as a warrior.. I work in a field that can sometimes require me to use my art. I am trained on various modern weapons and have spent time on a tactical swat team. (we refered to it as IERT, but i figured that wouldnt mean much here) I have pondered the thought of the sniper........... I know several snipers and have had long conversations with them as to their willingness to kill. In the responses here I saw someone say that they were martial artists but would kill if required.... I hope you know what it is you really say.
Dont get me wrong.. this person may be fully aware.. and that is the key.. are we "fully aware" of the consequences of our art. 15 years ago I would have said the same thing... but now i wonder. If we follow the saying "When the fist goes forth withold the anger, when the anger goes forth withold the fist" I think we have reached the point of "Martialist" ......................... then when the time comes a logical, calculated decision to kill can be made.....

I am past the age of sport, past the age of picking fights in local bars to prove how tough I am............................ but I still am aware of my surroundings daily... and working in the environment that I do I have found that by being friendly, easygoing and slow to anger has avoided many battles...... I am capable of hurting someone if I need to with out hesitation.... but am I capable of killing someone................. I'm not sure.... I do know that if you harmed my family.......... or If I were to walk in "as" you were harming my family........ I think that my fist would go out and my anger also... so again... I say I dont know if I could conciously kill...... but yes in a reactive state there is no doubt that any of us could..

What do you think........... sometimes I think that when we are young we like to "think" we could.... but "could we." ..........

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????

Mike O'Leary

[pesilat]

<< What do you think........... sometimes I think that when we are young we like to "think" we could.... but "could we." .......... >>

I agree completely. At 30, I'm not old by most people standards. But I've been around the block a time or two. I've been involved in martial arts most of my life (since 8). I've not been forced to kill anyone yet ... but I was in a situation (robbed at gunpoint while managing a store) where I planned, with intent, to kill a man (one of the robbers). I didn't do it because I wasn't sure where the gunman was and, more importantly, where my co-worker was. I was mad enough to say f*** the consequences, take the one guy out, and then hope that I could deal with the gunman without getting killed. But I was also rational enough to realize that, while I could make that choice for myself, I couldn't make it for my co-worker. For this reason, I held myself in check.

But there is I was close enough to that door to know that, if pushed, I would open it. In my mind, the robber was already dead ... he just didn't know it yet.

I should also mention that it wasn't over the money ... I didn't care about the money and money (and doubly when it's not mine) isn't worth risking my life over. The guy was being a major a$$ and I had begun to wonder if they weren't just planning on killing us anyway (they weren't wearing masks or anything). My decision to go down that road was partially rooted in anger but was directed by rationality.

But, having come that close, I know exactly what it takes to get there. I also know that, prior to that, I may have "thought" that I could go there ... but I now know that it's impossible to "know" until the situation is there.

I do think, though, that it's best to have thought about the possibility beforehand. To intellectually affirm to yourself that you can (or cannot) go there (and beyond where I went) before you're in the situation. This sort of gives you guidelines if the situation *does* arise. Whether you can *actually* go there can *only* be decided when the feces hits the blades.

Everyone reacts differently when under stress (especially life-or-death stress). Some people freeze. Some panic. Most fall somewhere in between. But whether you "somewhere" is usable or not is something that can't be known until it happens. I think that thinking about it beforehand can help reduce any hesitations we might have in the situation (i.e.: we won't get stuck in the intellectual side of the issue because we've already hashed that out) ... that only leaves the physical side to do. Hopefully our training will take over in that department and do what's necessary.

Sorry if I'm rambling (I think I repeated myself at least once). I should definitely be asleep but I'm having a fit of insomnia. As such, I fear that my fingers are working far better than my brain right now :-)

Mike

[waya]

I don't think taking a life is an easy thing. Mostly the willingness to do so comes from necesity. Noone can claim to "like" killing and still be truely human, but I feel that if you do kill you lose a part of yourself. Do I "know" I am capable of taking a life if necessary, yes, without any doubt. Do I wish to do so.... Not at all. I have always been very calm when confronted. I don't know why that has always been, but I am glad for it. I think to lose control in a fight is to lose or die if the situation is that bad.

[khafra]

I'd go with Heinlein here: Remember that your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. This may present an opportunity to make him your friend; and, if not, you can kill him quickly and without hate.

[Freeform]

So, we all think that we're capable of killing if necessary? Does that produce a sense of responsablity in you?

[Chazz]

Taking a life would bother me more than anythink. I know if a reason came up that i HAD TO i would, but if there was any way around it i would try to find it. Thats just me.

[Andy Murray]

What we do in MA is train responses!

All we can hope for, is that we train appropriate responses.

Typically, we won't know if our responses are appropriate until after the event.

We can spend our whole lives 'waiting' for the event!

We can only be true to ourselves!

On every occasion, presented with the 'fight or flight' scenario, I would leg it like Carl Lewis with a Rottweiler after him. The one exception would be if another human being could benefit from my will to risk myself!

I think you have to put this whole 'Take a life' thing in perspective!

You must have history in your own life that you feel guilty about. Lying to your Mum, letting a friend down, breaking a law and getting away with it, etc?

How do these things compare with the fact that you have ended someone else's existence, An existence that they valued as much as you value your own?

Does a Sniper pat himself on the back every day, and say ' Boy did that guy deserve a Bullet in the head'?

On Freeforms question; the responsibility is awesome!

[waya]

Does a Sniper pat himself on the back every day, and say ' Boy did that guy deserve a Bullet in the head'?

Not if he is human, it is his job but killing is not a nice thing.

I must agree that the part of taking a life must be seriously thought out. Noone can honestly say yes or no until they have been there. Many people with think they know and "know" they will until the moment comes and they freeze. And many others will go crazed with guilt afterward if they do it.

Rob

[Joseki]

Martial artists, for last time i pick up a sword to use it i ended up cuting myself (only joking)

i would class myself as a martial artists

[47Ronin]

Martialist-I wouldn't mind killing, I just rather not.

[Kwajman]

I agree with some of the others, somewhere between an athlete and a martial artist. While I train hard, I am not so "on the edge" as to be a martialist. Interesting question tho...

[hafer34]

. So basically it all comes down to which one you are categorized as. Martial arts basically is my life and is in my thoughts every day of my life. I am a martial artist but my heart contains some of a martialist.

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by Freeform
So, we all think that we're capable of killing if necessary? Does that produce a sense of responsablity in you?
I'm capable, but I sure don't want to. Responsibility, yes.

By the definitions in the original post I'm a "martial artist."

[aml01_ph]

I agree with pesilat. I consider myself a martial artist by your definition. I have been involved in situations much like his. If it's my life or his, I'll fight for mine.
Those who like the idea of becoming martialists should join the armed forces of his or her country. There at least you can get a chance of ever killing anybody (I doubt you'd do it with your bare hands though).

What about you Freeform? What are you?

[#1 Stutta]

I guess I used to be a Martial Athlete. Now I've sort of changed into a Martial Artist.

On the killing part of this.....sometimes I feel like killing people and I just wouldn't care. But that is anger coming in and I know that it's wrong. I don't ever want to kill anybody, but I will if I ever join the Army or am compelled to kill, i.e. friend or family being threatened.

[totality]

faced with a fight or flight situation...kind of depends on whether or not i'd win ;)

faced with killing someone...ehh, if it was really necessary, i'd hope i could do it. if unnecessary, i hope i wouldn't.

so i'm a combination of all 3...the ultimate robot ninja!

[Hakko-Ryu]

I'd love to think myself as a MARTIALISTS!! but not many people fall in that category these days. No one goes around and CUTS PEOPLE down as they please when need be. hehe sometimes you wish you could...well...i wish....hehe.

It pretty much means that a MARTIALIST is a full time 100% life committed martial artist that does nothing else but perfect his art of killing? (you can see how not many ppl would fall into that category in this day and age)

martial artist = hobbyist? a committed fighter but one who has other things to do in life other than MA?

[quartermaster]

as a true warrior, you must reach that state in much the same way as you would reach enlightenment, as such, if you have to ask, then you are not and if you seek you will not find

[redi knight]

id say im part martial artist, part martail athlete.

martialist sound cool and effective, and it probly is deep within me,but id rather preserve life if i could...but if i must, i must,i would indeed strike someone down if they try to harm me or anyone i know and respect..a person must be either prepared to take a life, or prepared to die.. or both.

[Tireces]

I think I'm someone who doesn't look to folks who fought deathmatches in vain attempts to prove their talent for wisdom.

[Infesticon #1]

I could only ever kill someone accidentally. I doubt that I could kill anyone no matter what they were doing/had done.

I'd put myself down as a martial sportsman then.

[Stolenbjorn]

Originally posted by Freeform
Alright, I haven't seen anybody out there claim the title of martial arts athlete, is that something that people on this forum are afraid to do?

What I mean to say is that where I class myself in the 'Artist' catagory I have entered a few tournements in my time. Does that mean I'm 'diluting the form' by binding myself with rules?

Can any of us say we are artists/martialist due to the rules and constraints we place on ourself in the dojo?

Thanx

Well, I will place myself as a mix of "martial artist" and "martial athlet"

I think most people; men/boys especially -have big problems not to take a competitive wiev on things they do. I think most people want to be good at doing what they do, me included. I don' like the competitive feelings, but they are there. I allso admit that trying to keep my body relatively healthy and fit is more important to me than the philosophical part of Fiore Del Libere's work, allthough starting to train martial arts does somthing to both self asteem and wiev on many things in life; but so does becoming a father!

[wayofthedragon]

By the definitions provided, I guess I would be a Martial Artist.....
Boy would I love to be a Martialist though. It's just that I don't have the time to make that my number one priority, with trying to work and go to school and and have a social life and all. However, when training time comes, I do put everything else aside for the moment and Martialarts becomes number 1