phoenix eye conditioning! [Archive]

Andy Murray

21-Mar-2003, 10:54 PM

I'm bored, and this threads total dross, so I thought I'd share a little story!

I once broke a guys wrist with Phoenix Eye Fist.

I used to work with a guy who was a know it all about everything, and according to him had done it all. He had the kind of 'Karate is it' mentality that makes my teeth ache. Anyway, he was telling me how Karate was this, and Karate was that, so I challenged him to a test.

We'd just been unpacking a delivery, and had some large empty cardboard boxes about a Metre square.

I asked him if he could put his hand through the side of the box, to which he replied "Of course". He wound up, and sent a badly dented box sailing across the area several times, yet never penetrated it. he seemed quite impressed with himself nevertheless.

I took a fresh box, hit it once, and left a nice neat hole in the middle without moving the box, then grinned and walked away.

He was hitting boxes any spare moment he got all day, then next thing I knew, he was being carted off to hospital nursing a broken wrist.

Yup, you guessed it, I used Phoenix Fist.

Those who don't know what this is; basically make a fist, pop up the middle index finger knuckle, and brace it by placing the thumb against the nail end of the finger.
To the untrained eye, all you see is the fist. You can't put a lot of weight behind it unless you follow the conditioning programme I mentioned earlier, but it does have some low percentile applications as Yoda has said.

:D

goatnipples2002

22-Mar-2003, 07:49 PM

So is it obsolete to train my phoenix eye? I understand it takes a while to be able to put any thrust behind it and not damage your joints. Is it practical?:confused: :confused: :confused:

YODA

22-Mar-2003, 07:54 PM

Yes - that's what I'm saying. YMMV of course.

JediMasterChris

20-Apr-2003, 01:23 AM

Many people don't use it because it has high risk of breaking said knuckle

I should have given that some thought before I went off and tried it.:cry:

Buddhas_Prodigy

19-May-2003, 07:06 PM

Finger push ups...

JediMasterChris

19-May-2003, 08:48 PM

I prefer doing other hand excercises...I have carpaltunnel and if I do finger pushups it hurts like hell. There are alot of hand excercisy things that work alot better and some hand excercises can even help arthritis and other hand excercises if you start early enough I believe.

frank zappa

08-Sep-2003, 06:51 AM

INJURY TO THE PHOENIX EYE IS USUALLY DUE TO IMPROPER FORM OF THE PUNCH.....NOT THE PHOENIX EYE ITSELF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YODA

08-Sep-2003, 07:08 AM

...

David

08-Sep-2003, 10:29 AM

The phoenix-eye is a very useful tool IMO. Yes, to get at many of the fancy pressure points, it's awkward/nigh on impossible but it's a great weapon against any soft target.

One use for which it is the ultimate tool is as a can opener for getting through the ribs. Strike with a twisting phoenix-eye into the rib cage and it'll find a way through to the juicy bits inside.

Also, consider the actuality - it's not just the protruding knuckle that does the work: the knuckle goes in to the main target and the rest of the knuckles impact just afterwards as the first knuckle forces a depression in the flesh. In the case of an eye attack, the eyball is hit by the knuckle at the same time as the rest of the fist hits the face.

As for the original question, I confess that I haven't really done much work on it except firming up the fist's structure and continuing to explore the different alignments.

General finger strength is a must and clawing exercises are good for this. (I have trouble with clawing exercises because they stretch the skin on the tops of my fingers so much that my cuticles split and I get those painful cuts and loose bits of skin around the fingernails). With clawing you have finger pushups which I think is best starting with middle knuckles taking the weight and moving out to fingertips as you get stronger.

Actual conditioning of the phoenix eye can be achieved by pressing into a wall. Start touching and increase pressure to max over several seconds. Hold it hard and then decrease to tuching over several seconds. This can lead you up to pushups if you incorporate leaning your weight. You can lean against the wall with your fists tucked in and thrust out to push you back from the wall just on the knuckle. I hardly ever do this.

Every time I do some intense finger work, I always make sure I am warmed up and do some chi gung for the hands before and after. One thing I don't want to do is destroy my bones/joints. I mention this because you mentioned nerve conditioning which often translates as nerve destruction.

Well, I have to be back at work.

Rgds,
David

imperial_guardz

23-Nov-2003, 08:51 PM

As a practitioner of using the "Phoenix Eye Fist", I really resent the corney cheese joke because it was absolutely obsured and immature. If you can not be serious to someone's question, then don't answer it at all.

Whats the phoenix eye?
WHAT IS THE PHOENIX EYE? WHY DID YOU EVEN GO IN THIS THREAD IN THE FIRST PLACE...[sigh]...very well...the Phoenix Eye is a rare type of fist used in some Kung Fu styles (such as Southern White Crane, Southern Praying Mantis, Lau Gar, etc.) Although quite well known, many people do not know how to properly use it or make it's fist. The Phoenix Eye fist is a fist which is similar to a normal fist, but with the INDEX nuckle extended and braced my the thumb! The attack weapon is the second knuckle of the INDEX finger!
http://www.aei.ca/~straycat/kungfu/fig4-14.jpg

The phoenix-eye is a very useful tool IMO. Yes, to get at many of the fancy pressure points, it's awkward/nigh on impossible but it's a great weapon against any soft target.
Partially true...The phoenix eye is BEST used on soft targets because the drilling of the knuckle into the body can penetrate more deeply in softer areas of the body...however, the phoenix eye, if conditioned properly can be applied to any part of the body.

when u use the pheonix eye its more about gettin in close before use its not used at punching range. try it a range and you'll probably dislocate your finger.
and
Many people don't use it because it has high risk of breaking said knuckle Its largely used for hitting pressure point as far as I know. "I know Kung Fu", but I'm not heavily into that side of things.
I disagree with both of these quotes...but I do agree with FrankZappa's quote

imperial_guardz

23-Nov-2003, 09:09 PM

yes...FrankZappa's quote..which was...
INJURY TO THE PHOENIX EYE IS USUALLY DUE TO IMPROPER FORM OF THE PUNCH.....NOT THE PHOENIX EYE ITSELF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now getting back to the original question...
How can I SAFELY condition my Phoenix-Eye? How do I condition the inner (bone, ligaments, joints) as well as outter hand (skin and nerves)? and
So is it obsolete to train my phoenix eye? I understand it takes a while to be able to put any thrust behind it and not damage your joints. Is it practical?

No..the Phoenix is a GREAT weapon if used properly...
In order to be able to use the phonix eye with more power, you need to first condition it...
This will take time for progression...Do not expect to be able to throw a full force punch after a week of using it. It takes time to work with your phoenix eye. As in a style like mine where the Phoenix Eye is the basic punch, your phoenix eye will quickly gain strength, but if you rarely use it, it will take much longer.
If you know how to creat a proper fist, you are half way there!!!

There are many methods to train your phoenix eye.
As said earlier...to strenghten the bones, ligaments and joint structure, finger push ups and wall bag punchings are good. With a firmly clenched fist, lightly punch a wall bag, gradually increasing power. Alot of people push their weight on their phonix eyes onto a wall...That is also a very good technique.
What better technique is there than punching a friend (holding a pad of course)...this will get you used to punching straight, not skimming your finger on the pad, tearing the skin off your nuckle.
Finger pushups...eventually leading to phoenix eye push ups can help as well...but by the time you are capable of doing phoenix eye push ups, you should be an expert at using the phoenix eye!

You can eventually punch hard surfaces with the phoenix eye. It will not dislocate your finger if done properly...I have demonstrated this fist to many people before punching the wall or a counter top with full force, adding dents and knicks to it...Pushing a door open with the phoenix eye, etc...It was to demostrated to them, but also to condition mine at the same time.
Punching boxes. I admit I have done that as well. This proved to me that the phoenix eye penetrates in a small area, making it capable of poking a whole in the box, unlike the normal fist, that launched the box across the room dented. The pheonix eye is a great weapon if used well and conditioned well...

...also...always remember...Dit Da Jow is a good aid in training :D

Imperial Guardz...CYF

http://www.aei.ca/~straycat/kungfu/images/whitecrane2c.gif

nzric

23-Nov-2003, 09:24 PM

Nothing against the training, I'm sure it's a great punch, but can someone tell me what is internal about phoenix eye?!

Syd

23-Nov-2003, 10:53 PM

G'day Rich

I think *internal* is a bit misleading in this case in that some might consider that it's employment depends on internal training; not the case.

Essentially the phoenix eye (which isn't just the index finger knuckle but which can also be the middle finger knuckle also) within Taijiquan applications at the very least, is meant to be issued against soft targets, such as the temple or the throat and various other select dim mak points.

It's certainly not meant to be used for shots where a palm strike would be common and essentially it is a specific tool to be used for a limited set of circumstances. It's a perfect little tool to get into certain forbidden points similar to the way the boney knife edge of the hand fits perfectly into the neck and up behind the ear.

The only thing internal about it is that it is one of the Taiji fists used for point strikes.

Best, Syd ( BTW* We're on for this Sunday, can you make it? A and myself had Yum Chat on Friday and are planning on meeting Sunday, it would be cool to have you along. ) ;)

nzric

23-Nov-2003, 11:48 PM

Just think that practicing that kind of fist prevents you from learning all the other juicy ways you can poke, prod, gouge and strike the poor bxxxxxd who is in front of you. And the internal arts are about ways of building your personal health throughout your life, not hardening your body up for short-term profit before your fingers give up from the strain. I'll stop - I don't want to bag Phoenix Eye training, but I don't think it's internal.

(btw - I'm on for Sunday, send me an email. You planning the Yum Chat then training?)

Andy Murray

24-Nov-2003, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by nzric
. I'll stop - I don't want to bag Phoenix Eye training, but I don't think it's internal.

It's damn internal when it enters your spleen! :D

47Ronin

24-Nov-2003, 03:59 AM

Haha man, this is the thread that made me join MAP and I never even posted in it. Haha

goatnipples2002

24-Nov-2003, 03:47 PM

I haven't ben training I've been out street racing, (much funner)
but now I'm gonna stop tokin & racin and get beck to training.

I don't feel finger pushups really help your phoenix eye or tiger's tooth. What else do you do for the conditioning of this strike.

David

24-Nov-2003, 05:43 PM

You notice as you practice with the fist that the index finger folds up tighter and tighter, as does the thumb behind it. This process makes the fist stronger.

Rgds,
David

imperial_guardz

25-Nov-2003, 04:24 AM

Essentially the phoenix eye (which isn't just the index finger knuckle but which can also be the middle finger knuckle also)
...I never heard of the Phoenix Eye EVER used in Tai Chi (I'll take your word for it though)...but one thing I'm sure...Yes there are some variation in the phoenix eye fist, but they still consist of the index finger pointing out...I have not yet heard of a phoenix eye with the middle finger.
Two widely known variation is the thumb supporting your index from the bottom, or from the side...The following images are the 2 variations of the phoenix eye fist...where the thumb supports the index from the bottom, and the side.
http://www.tibetankungfu.com/mantis20_small.gif
http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen/pix/phoenix.jpg

What is internal about the Phoenix Eye Fist?
It's damn internal when it enters your spleen!
HAHAHA thank you Andy...stole the words right out of my mouth...
Well what is internal about the phoenix eye fist is that very little power is required to cause great damage! When you punch with an external punch, the force is only felt on the outside; You bruise on the outter layers of muscle...When punched with and internal strike, the pain penetrates within...Injuring the internals and not just the externals...with the phoenix eye fist...the external injuries are just a bonus;)

Now getting back at the question...
I don't feel finger pushups really help your phoenix eye or tiger's tooth. What else do you do for the conditioning of this strike.
Well if finger push ups are not helping...My only suggestions are Hand Conditioning by various methods (such as iron palm training, rice jabbing, etc) and punching of wall bags, punching bags or partnered shields...
Wall bags are your best bet...But you have to work slowly with it.
Going full force on a wall bag is not a good idea if your not efficient with your phoenix eye fist. The Phoenix eye fist requires time to use it well.

http://www.aei.ca/~straycat/kungfu/images/whitecrane2c.gif

Syd

25-Nov-2003, 06:35 AM

..I never heard of the Phoenix Eye EVER used in Tai Chi (I'll take your word for it though)

Well you have now. There are many different fists, palms and very secretive
hand shapes within Taiji that most people aren't aware of. Most of these have dian mai (Dim Mak) application and require very little power to apply.

...but one thing I'm sure...Yes there are some variation in the phoenix eye fist, but they still consist of the index finger pointing out

No they don't... there is a Phoenix Eye variation using the middle finger instead of the index finger.

...I have not yet heard of a phoenix eye with the middle finger.

Now you have.

Best, Syd

goatnipples2002

25-Nov-2003, 03:28 PM

Alot of kara-te guys say it's external because of the conditioning it requires to put force behind it. Alot of kung fu guys say its internal because the damage may not be seen on the skins surface but you can suffer from internal bleeding from a light shot in the right place. Me personally I don't care either way, I can tell you from experience the strike HURTS. Train the strike the right way and you'll make it home to kiss your loved ones the next time some young punks try to mess with you.

Edit: Please don't swear

Syd

25-Nov-2003, 07:32 PM

The designation of Internal is totally inapropriate just because a fist, palm or strike is meant to cause internal damage rather than external damage. This is something completely different and misleading.

Internal means to be soft outside, hard inside, using minmum force to achieve the maximum damage. It also means Qi cultivation as in Taiji, Bagua etc. It has nothing to do with a fist.

Best Syd

RubyMoon

25-Nov-2003, 09:13 PM

Essentially the phoenix eye (which isn't just the index finger knuckle but which can also be the middle finger knuckle also)
In my old style (Shaolin Chuan) these were two different strikes with different names and uses. When formed with the first knuckle, it is Eye of the Phoenix (or phoenix eye). The middle-knuckle version is called dragon fist and comes from the dragon-shaped arts.

This is just my experience. The two strikes are used differently. Eye of the Phoenix is more likely to be used on sensitive areas around the head and neck, and other vulnerable points that require a small point of impact such as the temple. It is used in the crane form which blends internal energy with quick and precise external strikes. The dragon fist is a little stronger than, but not as small as, the phoenix eye and is used for harder targets, including the sternum.

nzric

25-Nov-2003, 09:31 PM

Thanks for that comment Syd - Internal doesn't just mean literally 'inside' the body (but good joke, Andy - I probably asked for that). And the type of damage caused by internal arts on the opponent is just a byproduct of the technique - there's a lot of external damage you can cause with internal techniques as well.

Also, while "maximum effort with minimum force" is a principle of internal arts, that also doesn't mean it's internal. It's focused but not internal. If that were the only requirement, a karate chop would also be internal.

Good posts though, there are some interesting explanations about the technique.

Syd

25-Nov-2003, 09:40 PM

Thats interesting, I am aware of this fist in Sil Lum Chuan as being Dragon Head but as far as I know within Taiji it is a variation of Phoenix Eye and does not bear a seperate designation. It may well fall between the cracks of the two systems as some systems have very similar movements going by different names also.

For instance even within the Yang Cheng Fu 108 there is a movement called Stork Spreads Wings. Later in the last 3rd it is repeated and achieved in a reverse fashion and instead named Ride Tiger back to Mountain... it is one and the same movement as Stork Spreads Wings.

Best, Syd

Syd

25-Nov-2003, 09:55 PM

Hey Rich.

I'm going to be pedantic here mate. When you said... "Also, while "maximum effort with minimum force" is a principle of internal arts, that also doesn't mean it's internal. It's focused but not internal. If that were the only requirement, a karate chop would also be internal."

I can agree with that because it is a bit different to what I said, which was...using minimum force to achieve the maximum damage.. This is the key element of the internal arts, harnessed through correct bio-mechanics as well as expression of jin and qi.

I just wanted to clarify the difference.

Best, Syd ;)

goatnipples2002

26-Nov-2003, 03:23 PM

Does it really matter whether it's internal or external? Really when it comes down to it, if you condition this strike properly you will be able to defend yourself VERY effeciently and effectively. There are literally thousands arts and a million styles, so why argue over a name or the use. Why don't we talk about how to condition this strike.

imperial_guardz

26-Nov-2003, 04:27 PM

hahaha...soo true...
well thank you RubyMoon for varifying my understanding...
In my old style (Shaolin Chuan) these were two different strikes with different names and uses. When formed with the first knuckle, it is Eye of the Phoenix (or phoenix eye). The middle-knuckle version is called dragon fist and comes from the dragon-shaped arts.

But anyways...enough arguing what a phoenix eye is...If Syd wants to believe that the phoenix eye uses the middle finger, so be it...just as long as he can use it...

Anyways...Yes...GoatNipples is right...
The phoenix eye is a great weapon...now to train it...I still suggest the wall bag...have you really considered or trained that?
There are also various Iron Palm techniques which aid in the strengthening of the palms and hands...
Use these techniques to strengthen your hand (feel less pain)...Use the wall bag to get used to punching with the phoenix eye...

Since finger push ups doesn't work for you...try tiger claw or panther paw push ups...or even more advanced...Phoenix Eye pushups...If you can do push ups with the phoenix eye...you have becomed a master of it...They're painful if your not used to it...and hard to do...

But remember...Even if your phoenix eye can't take the wall bag or the push ups...a human body is much softer...and it doesn't hurt as much punching a human than the wall bag!

Imperial_Guardz
http://www.aei.ca/~straycat/kungfu/images/whitecrane2c.gif

Syd

26-Nov-2003, 08:29 PM

Does it really matter whether it's internal or external?

Errrr yes it does... internal Martial Artists don't need to condition the knuckle because it is used in an internal way, NOT an external way. It's like saying day and night are the same.

But anyways...enough arguing what a phoenix eye is...If Syd wants to believe that the phoenix eye uses the middle finger, so be it.

It was never an argument, it was a discussion. It is not a belief but a fact, there is a difference. Enjoy your external conditioning.

Syd,

goatnipples2002

26-Nov-2003, 09:25 PM

Whatever you say syd, If you don't condition your bones and ligaments to take the abuse of using it to strike then how do you plan to prevent skeletal, cartilage or ligament damage. Biomechanics alone ain't ****. It takes alot more than just proper form to prevent this damage.

TO EACH HIS OWN PATH, YOURS IS NOT MINE AND MINE IS NOT YOURS.

We can agree to disagree.

I studied up on conditioning and what I do now is I hit my 75 lbs. heavy bag (which is frozen) with every strike I plan on using. Then I also hit a wide plastic tub of mung beans. I read that the iron dudes would punch this until the beans were powder. The mung beans have a medicinal purpose once they start to powderize.

The iron conditioning program is a long process, each step is 6 months & you should MAKE your own Dit Da Jow.....

1. Mung Beans

2. 1/2 MB & 1/2 small pebbles (non coated like fish tank pebbles but that size)

3. small pebbles

4. 1/2 small pebbles & 1/2 iron pellets (iron bb's only, I forgot why ony iron)

5. iron pellets

This is just the tip of the mountain, I have more info if needed.

Syd

27-Nov-2003, 02:58 AM

Uh oh, we have some paradigm failures here...

Whatever you say syd, If you don't condition your bones and ligaments to take the abuse of using it to strike then how do you plan to prevent skeletal, cartilage or ligament damage. Biomechanics alone ain't ****. It takes alot more than just proper form to prevent this damage.

The fact is that the way we strike in Taiji is very different to external martial arts. Striking is whip like and not physical force on inanimate objects. Damage is inflicted internally by a different kind of approach. I won't expect you to understand this but don't try telling internal stylists whats what in regards to bio-mechanics and conditioning as we have our own jiben gong which takes care of this without head butting walls.

TO EACH HIS OWN PATH, YOURS IS NOT MINE AND MINE IS NOT YOURS.

Then don't profess to act like you know
my path...

We can agree to disagree.

Been there, done that...

I studied up on conditioning and what I do now is I hit my 75 lbs. heavy bag (which is frozen) with every strike I plan on using.

So do I, but I do it internally...

Then I also hit a wide plastic tub of mung beans. I read that the iron dudes would punch this until the beans were powder. The mung beans have a medicinal purpose once they start to powderize.

Hey! Your a chef as well, who knew?

The iron conditioning program is a long process, each step is 6 months & you should MAKE your own Dit Da Jow...

Wow, you've got it all worked out. As I said before enjoy your external conditioning.

nzric

27-Nov-2003, 03:57 AM

Mung beans make you regular.

Syd - my mistake, it was a bit of a typo and a bit of typing too fast for my brain (my fingers have a will of their own (which is helpful in bagua but bad in a discussion forum)).

And does it matter whether it's called 'internal' or 'external'? Dude, go up to an Aikido expert and say "you're just a wrestler aren't you. it's all the same, you're both flipping people".

Syd

27-Nov-2003, 06:47 AM

Thanks Rich! ... the sanity police arrive in the nick of time.

No worries about the typo, I wasn't sure whether you missed me or not and just wanted to make sure either way. I'd hate to be the monkey who claimed internal arts were about maximum force with maximum effort! *L*

See ya Sunday...

imperial_guardz

27-Nov-2003, 04:03 PM

I won't expect you to understand this but don't try telling internal stylists whats what in regards to bio-mechanics and conditioning as we have our own jiben gong which takes care of this without head butting walls.
Uhhh...roight...without physical conditioning, your style would be just as applicable as modern wushu! They don't have to condition because they don't have to make any physical contact with anyone. No matter what style internal or external, physical contact is involved when fighting an opponent. With physical contact comes impact, and with impact comes damage. If you didn't have impact, you wouldn't be able to inflict damage upon your opponent! However, with impact, you can cause damage and pain to yourself as well...Hense we condition to train weak points in our bodies in order to accept the physical outcomes of an attack...to say that you don't have to condition in ANY style is just plain ignorant.
Now are you trying to say that you can defeat an opponent without physically touching them? or that...with your internal arts training...your body can become indestructable...cuz those two statements are so...just arrogant!

You maybe able to mindset yourself to say it doesn't hurt...but in the end...a broken wrist is a broken wrist! and a broken finger, after all, is a PAINFUL broken finger...If you don't condition your body, such as your phoenix eye, you'll end up hurting your opponent, but even worse, hurting yourself. Having a proper basic punch will not only serve you temporarily now, but will serve you a life time! Another view of it is...what good is being healthy through internal means if you can't protect yourself from some Punk on the streets? Balance is the secret of the crane...Balance of internal and external...leading to longevity.

The power of mung beans may or may not be true, but...the concept behind that training is unique and undeniably useful in conditioning of a proper punch.
Internal means...minmum force to achieve the maximum damage
Using that quote...then the phoenix eye is indeed internal than...Little effort...maximum damange from a punch...yet it does effects of an external technique!
...but still it shouldn't matter internal or external!
Why should it matter? Not like it makes a difference in the technique...If i said baji was internal...would a baji expert start steping like a cat? NO! If I said Piqua was external would they start punching with more power? NO! the style will always be the same style...no matter what name or category it is placed under...
So it doesn't matter what category you place the phoenix eye in...but either way...conditioning is required prior to using it...otherwise it will come of no use to you...except to injure yourself...It doesn't matter how good you are at the internal arts...a phoenix eye will not come of uses to you without it being properly conditioned.

nzric

27-Nov-2003, 09:12 PM

I'll say this one more time - it DOES matter what you call it. The term Internal is the description of a huge philosophy and way of training, you can't just use it when and wherever you want to. Like I said - try telling someone who does kung fu that what he's doing is dancing, or tell a tae kwon do person that they're doing karate because "it looks the same", or what if I started calling the phoenix eye a 'karate chop'. I am going on and on about this but if we can't argue the correct semantics in an Internal arts thread of a MA discussion board, where can we do it?

Read some books about the internal arts - do some research. It's not just a word to throw in at random.

And the reason we do internal arts is because there Are different ways of training your body to strike and receive attacks. Getting hard knuckles isn't the only way (even though I know the Phoenix Eye is a good training method) - thats why we train yielding, flow, concentrating chi and above all, whole body coordination and power that's unique to the Internal arts. A punch is not a punch is not a punch.

I know this thread should be about the technique of using the fist (and I think it's a good training method), so I'll stop on the terminology spiel. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Syd

27-Nov-2003, 10:37 PM

Imperial Guardz...

If you understood what "we have our own Jiben Gong" means you would have saved yourself half an hour typing something which shows you don't understand the training regimen of Internal stylists.

Go and do some research... I'm not even going to bother with the rest.

Njoy...

RubyMoon

27-Nov-2003, 11:30 PM

I may be going out on a limb here, but isn't the Eye of the Phoenix supposed to be used on sensitive pressure points? An attack to the temple, for instance, doesn't require a lot of bone-crushing force to be effective. Speed is your best friend here. If sufficient speed is generated, the force transferred to the target will be much greater than the impact felt by the practitioner. I promise you that a fast strike to the temple will drop an opponent with barely a tap.

What I'm saying, essentially, is that it shouldn't require very much (if any) conditioning if the technique is used on relatively soft, vulnerable areas. If one must condition their hand to use the phoenix eye in a particular way, I would question whether that was really the best technique for the job.

This is really more of a question than an answer, conjecture rather than conclusion. I am not saying there is no place for conditioning in the internal martial arts, that is not in my field of expertise.

But conditioning the Eye of the Phoenix seems pointless to me.

Syd

28-Nov-2003, 12:14 AM

Amen...

ns_oni

29-Nov-2003, 08:21 AM

it sounds like an advanced technique from what i've read (not alot), i think it would be usefull if you're good enough.

goatnipples2002

29-Nov-2003, 07:29 PM

I study no art, I have only street experience, but I have done all my research. I have no care about internal or external. When I speak in terms of internal and external I mean tissue & bones and their connection to the mind. You must condition your body's vulnerable spots and weapons/defenses. Not to sound like an ass, but just "thinking" about it ain't gonna cut it.

Strong mind with weak body OR strong body weak mind = yin no yang, yang no yin.

A broken bone is still a broken bone after you block out the pain.

Syd

29-Nov-2003, 10:18 PM

You still don't get it.... keep trying, it'll come one of these days. I'll repeat for the last time.

"we have out own jiben gong... which takes care of all that (ie conditioning!)("

hwardo

29-Nov-2003, 10:42 PM

Mr. Nipples:
The main difference that you are failing to account for is the recognition of qi in regards to training and development. What everyone is trying to tell you is that internal and external arts have different techniques for protecting your body and inflicting damage on others. To state that you have done your research, but then show that you do not understand (or perhaps care about) the difference is going to take heat, because thousands of practioners are going to disagree with you. There is only so much you can really understand about qi cultivation without actually trying it. Why don't you check it out a little? If it is all BS, at least you will have proper evidence to argue with.

Andy Murray

29-Nov-2003, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by hwardo
To state that you have done your research, but then show that you do not understand (or perhaps care about) the difference is going to take heat, because thousands of practioners are going to disagree with you. There is only so much you can really understand about qi cultivation without actually trying it. Why don't you check it out a little? If it is all BS, at least you will have proper evidence to argue with.

*Applause*

The crowd goes wild! :D

goatnipples2002

30-Nov-2003, 08:48 PM

The reason I don't agree with the internal side of things is because I started learning by external. My first real fight my knuckles, hands and wrists hurt. I asked myself what I could do to stop this from happening again. I looked into conditioning and body posture. I had noone to instruct me through meditation. I still don't understand meditation, I do what I do to make the connection between mind, body, and heart, one. I understand chi cultivation as a healing method (as far as stretching and massage) but not as a conditioning method.

I apologize if you fell disrespected by my comments of internal conditioning. I understand that it takes different disciplines whether it be internal or external. Personaly I don't care either way I just want to be able to use my tiger's tooth and not break my finger or feel any pain. When I can break boards or hit a makiwara full strength with it I'll be happy.

I have no certain art that I follow, but I take what is EFFECTIVE from each art. Whether it be a technique, a philosophy or a strategy.

And yes I have done my research. You know as I do you can only learn so much in the internal arts without a "guide". Yet I feel if you have enough experience then you can pick up the external arts pretty quick. I don't ask how did they do that, I ask WHY? I did 2 years of studying philosophy and history.

Before I forget what is this jiben gong all about?

Syd

30-Nov-2003, 09:20 PM

Jiben Gong = method of training or curriculum...

David

30-Nov-2003, 10:51 PM

Regarding the middle finger being used for the phoenix-eye...

Fists are named after their appearance or application so I would say it's not a phoenix-eye unless it's the index finger because the appearance of a phoenix-eye is lost.

Protruding middle-finger knuckles are known to me as chicken-heart fist or (as said above) dragon fist.

There is a double phoenix-eye which uses the index AND middle fingers with the thumb jammed behind them both. I think I've heard this referred to as a dragon fist, too...

Regarding the two methods of constructing the 'standard' phoenix-eye, I'm taught a third. The first two were the thumb supporting from below and from above. I do it from behind (:D)

Rgds,
David

YODA

30-Nov-2003, 11:06 PM

Fists are named after their appearance or application so I would say it's not a phoenix-eye unless it's the index finger because the appearance of a phoenix-eye is lost.

As a mythical bird - how do you know what it's eye looks like?

David

30-Nov-2003, 11:10 PM

Hooray, a question that doesn't need answering! My work here is done.

Rgds & goodnight,
David

YODA

30-Nov-2003, 11:23 PM

Nice issue evasion skills :D

David

30-Nov-2003, 11:36 PM

Just in case you're being seriously obtuse: :D

The phoenix is a mythical bird so you imagine a bird and give it some embellishment. The phoenix is widely represented in art. So, clearly imagination isn't a problem.

Obviously, the phoenix-eye fist looks more like a fist than it does a bird, much less a bird that doesn't exist. But from one angle, the curled index finger is reminiscent of a bird's eye. So, if you were going to name it, you'd think of a bird, preferably a cool one. I think you can see where I'm going with this.

I wonder now about where the myth originated because I'm fairly sure it's not China and so, how long has the fist been called phoenix-eye?

Now I really am going to bed! Goodnight,

David

YODA

30-Nov-2003, 11:39 PM

* Squints at pic....

Nope - I see no bird's eye

More beer needed maybe.

Andy Murray

01-Dec-2003, 12:14 AM

David,
you've mislead the discussion by posting pictures of the less common 'winking Phoenix Eye'. :D

Yoda, I broke a guys wrist with this technique once, and am happy to show you how it's done. ;)

nzric

01-Dec-2003, 12:20 AM

I haven't seen a variety of imaginary phoenixes, and none of them had eyes that looked like a knuckle.

What's a goat nipple fist?

..."My first real fight my knuckles, hands and wrists hurt. I asked myself what I could do to stop this from happening again. I looked into conditioning and body posture."...

That's the difference between internal and external. The principle of the internal arts isn't "get thick knuckles so you can punch things harder", it's a whole different system of movement.

First of all, strikes in IMA are aimed at the 'soft target's' of the body, not just repeated punches onto someone's skull (the skull tends to win, if not the enemy, against your knuckles).

Also, there is a lot of meditation and qigong aimed at building your chi and guiding that energy into your hands, so your hands are 'warmed up' and much more receptive to strikes.

Also, strikes are 'yin' up until the moment of impact, where they become yang, then yin immediately afterward. That way, there is much less chance of hurting yourself because the resistance of your own hand dissipates after the strike.

As well as that, movement comes from the ground and the legs, so all power is much more natural, economical, faster and less stressful on your own body.

As well as that, you never meet force on force in IMA - all movements are based on curves, redirecting the force, and/or rebounding off the opponent's strike to receive their force and shoot it back at them. You're not forcing your own body or struggling against them - so you don't keep tension in your body.

Lastly, by keeping your hand locked in that position, you may as well be wielding a knife or a short stick (which would do a lot more damage). The IMA strikes are with all parts of the hand - the knuckles, the tips of the fingers, the sides, palm and back (which are delivered in different ways)... not to mention grabs and pulls. There's no point locking your hand into one position because that stops you from using all the other methods.

SoKKlab

01-Dec-2003, 12:47 AM

It does work very well in certain Grappling scenarios, particularly against the neck and there are some nice Chin Na tricks to facilitate releases from low threat situations.

Strongly grinding it into the Sternum gives a nice 'electric shock' which makes most folk go 'ow' and let go of whatever they are holding. A nice also is to dig into the back of the hand in order to gain a grip release. But these are tricks.

I certainly am not skillful enough to be able to use it during an exchange of blows though, but that's more to do with the fact that I don't practice Phoenix Eye technique and such like.

But hey it worked great in Dragons Claws against Hwang Jang Lee...

nzric

01-Dec-2003, 02:10 AM

Thanks SoKKlab - but if it's only good for pressing and grinding, what can the phoenix eye do that a thumb (or a small weapon (bic lighter?)) can't?

KungFuGrrrl

01-Dec-2003, 02:58 AM

PHEONIX EYE in floating rib is painful.

Syd

01-Dec-2003, 03:05 AM

A fajin palm shot to the sternum is more efficient than any single knuckle strike to that area as well as it being a totally natural position to melt into for other kinds of strikes. The more I examine various hand weapons the more I see the flexibility and advantage of palm strikes over any kind of fist.

You can use a palm with little or no conditioning on just about any part of the body without damage to the hand or joints. It would seem to me that any method which might increase the likelihood of damage to your own body in combat is flawed at best.

If used on the correct targets then no problems should arise but you need to realize also that accuracy in combat is going to decrease exponentially. I would always opt for an open palm method over any ingenious hand weapon that takes an unnatural form and requires the practitioner to have make that shape in a split second, with an attacker right on top of you.

A palm is the most natural and relaxed shape and position for a hand to be in and by that logic it is also going to be your quickest and fastest method of attack or defence. You can believe that a full blooded fajin strike to the temple with a knife edge palm strike would have exactly the same effect as a one knuckle strike. I would also wager that a palm strike would get there faster and more naturally.

A palm isn't anything you even have to subconciously think about, it is just there when you need it. Next time someone lunges at you trying to take your head off, see how fast and effective your creation, reaction, accuracy, targeting and timing is, using a one knuckle strike to the sternum, temple or floating rib... forget it.

David

01-Dec-2003, 10:18 AM

I'm a big fan of palm strikes, too. I tend to use them in sparring. There's a guy who used a Police speed-gun to measure the speed of his strikes and he consistently found the palms to be faster.

I find the phoenix-eye hard to make in certain directions of movement. For example, I can make it very quickly for a nailing sideways punch to the temple but in a straight horizontal punch it takes me longer to form it. This difficulty of mine is mitigated by the use to which it can be put eg I grab and pull his wrist with one hand so he isn't thinking about hitting me and soon afterwards the phoenix-eye in my other hand hits home.

It a bit over the top to say the phoenix-eye is less because it can't be used for everything? With 15 fists to choose from, I'm not going to cut out ones (most) which can't be used for everything.

I'm still not sure whether you doubters of the naming of the fists by appearance are serious or not. I'm worried that you are and that doesn't bode well for you :D

I've just remembered I made an error in my post. I have not heard (before) of the middle-finger fist as being the dragon fist - it was known to me as the leopard fist. And guess what, the reason it's called a leopard fist is that if you push it into the ground, it makes a mark like a leopard's footprint.

Rgds,
David

Syd

01-Dec-2003, 10:39 AM

G'day David,

Regarding the naming and your querie on the 'Dragons Head' fist. If you look in Yang Jwing Mings publications you will see it named for various styles from White Crane to Shaolin and Taiji. It is called Dragons Head but this doesn't mean that other styles might not call it by another name. As I stated earlier I have seen Dragons Head called Phoenix Eye also. I don't think it's an error and I do understand what your saying about the shape mimicking the animal, but variations in interpretation exist the world over.

P.S I wasn't saying phoenix eye was lesser, I just said it was less efficient. No doubt it has it's uses, but I can live without it and get the same job done using palms. ;)

Njoy, Syd

SoKKlab

01-Dec-2003, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by nzric
Thanks SoKKlab - but if it's only good for pressing and grinding, what can the phoenix eye do that a thumb (or a small weapon (bic lighter?)) can't?

I didn't say that it was ONLY good for pressing and grinding, just that I Don't practice it as a strike.

The only time I have had recourse to use it, is to facilitate a release, in which capacity it works very nicely and no, I wouldn't use it as a strike personally.

If I did I could possibly make it work, but 'spotting' strikes against Pressure points the size of a small coin against someone trying to take your head off are optimistic to say the least within a serious Melee (A whole different thread in itself).

It works much better on the back of the hand than trying to dig a thumb in and as I don't smoke and am not an arsonist, then I don't carry a Bic lighter....

goatnipples2002

01-Dec-2003, 03:40 PM

Thanx for the definition of internal vs external arts, but I really don't give a **** either way. I am into external conditioning as a means to internal conditioning, which for me is confidence. My internal art is confidence. Before I can use my tiger's tooth to it's best ability I will have to have confidence in my strike. THIS IS JUST ME, MY PATH AND MY PATH ALONE.

As I asked what are some SAFE ways to condition this strike?

How can I condition my forearms and shins by myself?

I understand the jiben gong is a conditioning method, but what is it. Can you tell me what you do exactly or is it a big secret?

imperial_guardz

01-Dec-2003, 07:48 PM

Regarding the middle finger being used for the phoenix-eye...
As I said...the Index Finger...now where's your proof for the Middle? Scan it and attach it...I'm not doubting the fact...I just wanna see the hard cold evidence...as proof...I believe in what I see...

As a mythical bird - how do you know what it's eye looks like?
Gee...isn't that like saying...'How can you say Dragon Kung Fu...if no one's ever seen a dragon?' or...'Chi? how do you know it exist...no one has seen it!' Get my point?
A lot of Chinese naming was based on mystic creatures...as a symbol of something...usually power...and so forth...Phoenix' are an important part of Chinese culture, just like Dragons...they're just as powerful...so why not name a technique poetically with a mystical power?

First of all, strikes in IMA are aimed at the 'soft target's' of the body, not just repeated punches onto someone's skull (the skull tends to win, if not the enemy, against your knuckles).
Are you sure about that? I disagree...You punch someone's head with a strong fist...the head gets lumps, and the guy gets an aching headache...concusions may occur, etc...the skull doesn't usually win after all...
As well as that, movement comes from the ground and the legs, so all power is much more natural, economical, faster and less stressful on your own body.
all movements are based on curves, redirecting the force, and/or rebounding off the opponent's strike to receive their force and shoot it back at them.
Circular or straight line...the shorter distance equals the shorter time right? but...the straight line has a shorter distance...so wouldnt' that be quicker? But I'm not criticizing circular motions, because I use them as well...I'm just saying...

Lastly, by keeping your hand locked in that position, you may as well be wielding a knife or a short stick (which would do a lot more damage).
Do you always carry a stick with you? And I mean a real stick...not your...so don't be thinking dirty now...:p

PHEONIX EYE in floating rib is painful.
The Phoenix Eye Anywhere is painful...Trust me...it's my style's basic fist...we use it ALL THE TIME...ALL OVER THE PLACE...and yes...it CAN be used ALL OVER the body...It is just as effective on the solar plexus as it is to the forehead or any other hard part of the body!

You can believe that a full blooded fajin strike to the temple with a knife edge palm strike would have exactly the same effect as a one knuckle strike.
The phoenix eye hurts alot more...with more damage to the opponent too...More surface of impact, the more spread out the force will be...the less the impact surface...the more the force!
It is the same principle as lying on a bed of nails...That isnt' too hard dangerous...but try lying on one single nail...why? less surface area...more localized force!

A palm isn't anything you even have to subconciously think about, it is just there when you need it.
Oh c'mon...if you didnt' have to think about it...then why is it that you don't always have a palm? Why is it that when some people get mad, their hands may clench up into a fist? Why is it that new born babies usually have their hands closed and not open exposing their palms? It does require a subconcious and/or concious level of thinking...It is not always there when you need it...and yes sometimes if done improperly with out thinking...Broken fingers may occur!

Next time someone lunges at you trying to take your head off, see how fast and effective your creation, reaction, accuracy, targeting and timing is, using a one knuckle strike to the sternum, temple or floating rib... forget it.
uhh...Hit anything with the Phoenix eye...HIT THE HAND...THE ARM!...lets see if they'll still be swinging punches then...Once again I say...The phoenix eye is just effective anywhere else as it is on soft areas!

I find the phoenix-eye hard to make in certain directions of movement.
When the Phoenix Eye is your basic punch, you find the phoenix eye most comfortable and most effective to strike anywhere and any direction...it isn't difficult to do.

I don't believe in training in one extreme...so I chosed a style that had a balance of internal and external...White Crane...
Training in one extreme doesn't make sense to me...but training in a balance does...I'm not saying trainign in one extreme is bad, but...your only getting half the aspect of Martial Arts! The other half your to busy dissing it up that to recognize the talents and benefits! Have an open mind! That's what these forums are all about...to come in with an open mind and learn. Help others...and learn yourself...

Imperial_Guardz

David

01-Dec-2003, 07:59 PM

(The phoenix-eye is my basic punch, too.)

Shade

01-Dec-2003, 07:59 PM

Hi imperial_guardz,

I don't currently practice IMA but do have a growing interest in Tai Chi, however please forgive me for commenting on an area that is largely unknown to me.

A couple of things in your last post made me think 'hang on that's not my current understanding'. One that sticks out is the comment nzric made about not striking a hard skull, rather targetting soft areas.

It is clear that certain IMA masters certainly teach the student to target areas such as the eyes, throat and neck as oppossed to striking the hard skull. The reason for this is that the aim of something like Tai Chi, as I understand it (and please correct me anyone if I am wrong here), is not just to give your opponent a bump on the head, but to seriously damage and even kill your attacker.

Punching someone on their very hard head is not going to be as effective as crushing their windpipe for example. Hence, I believe, nzric's comment about soft targets.

goatnipples2002

01-Dec-2003, 09:00 PM

How can I condition this strike. Just tell me what you guys did and your insights. What did you guys do to condition your forearms, shins, and body.

Is it possible to get struck by a proper PE and not get hurt?

nzric

01-Dec-2003, 09:14 PM

Of course you can do damage by hitting any target of someone's body - that's not what I said. I am saying that IMA is about economy of movement, so rather than train our shins for thigh kicks, or our knuckles for punching someone's skull, it's easier to train methods to strike the vitals. As my teacher says - it doesn't matter how big you are, there's no way you can strengthen the front of your throat.

"...Thanx for the definition of internal vs external arts, but I really don't give a **** either way...."
I respect that g-nipples - that's why all these forums are divided into separate arts, IMA isn't for everyone. But I just said you should call it what it is, and from what I understand of IMA, the phoenix eye isn't internal. Whether it is effective is another discussion altogether, I just wanted to respond to the posts that were saying "who cares, let's just call it internal"

"...Circular or straight line...the shorter distance equals the shorter time right? but...the straight line has a shorter distance...so wouldnt' that be quicker? But I'm not criticizing circular motions, because I use them as well...I'm just saying......"
Point taken Imperial Guards, but that would only be correct if the defence and attack were separate movements. In karate, for instance, you learn to block, then punch (in the beginning) as separate movements. The principle of IMA is to MAKE your defence your attack. The beginning of the curving movement is a block/rollback/diffusion of the attack, and it is supposed to blend naturally into the next movement (using the attacker's momentum as well as your own) to rebound/redirect/sweep as an attack. So the principle is that one curve (defend/attack) is faster than two straight lines (block/attack). If you're not familiar with tai chi attacks, look at aikido fighters, where a lot of their moves are a lot like exaggerated tai chi applications.

David

01-Dec-2003, 10:13 PM

A couple of things.

gn2002:
Conditioning. We condition by hitting each other mainly shin on shin, forearm on forearm, fist on palm, palm on palm, back on back, hip on hip, chops on collar bones, chest & stomach, kicks and palms to the sides and legs. We use head-on impacts, glancing/twisting blows and grinding/pushing...

...But I haven't done any phoenix-eye conditioning in class. Maybe it comes later - I'll try to remember to ask. I can easily imagine that phoenix-eye is trained hitting against a palm once the palm is iron. I can't think of anywhere on the body that would be practicable and painless enough to work it apart from that. In my out-of-class experimentation I've tried matching phoenix-eye against phoenix-eye in a pushing competition but it was very fiddly keeping the knuckles aligned to the other guy.

Leaning on the fists as you do standing pushups against a wall, including doing explosive ones as if you were punching. I've just this moment 'invented' another one. I stood up, leaning on a PE into my canvas wall-bag and retracted that hand , shooting the other PE out to catch my fall into the bag. It doesn't feel right to me because these motions are counter to the style philosophy but hey, I'm only going to do 10 or so reps so maybe it's cool. This kind of thing will lead you to be able to pushup on PEs but, as has been said, PE's hurt the reciever a lot anyway - I've got too many deficiencies to stick this on high priority.

nzric, my style trains the neck/throat to take blows and strangulation-type attacks using exercises and conditioning. I heard of a (Russian?) guy who demoed taking baseball bat strikes to his throat. And what is that Shaolin spear in throat thing? Probably kosher despite those silly (IMO) bendy shafts.

Rgds,
David

nzric

01-Dec-2003, 10:39 PM

Yep, there's conditioning for the neck, especially the muscles around the throat, but there are acupressure points there in everyone's body, and the carotid will also be sitting just below the surface. Do it yourself - press the hollow in the base of your throat (at the throat part, not the top of your chest), or anywhere down the side of the windpipe where you'd take a pulse (carotid) beside the muscle, or tap the top of your neck in the hollow under your ears, or give yourself a (light!!!) glancing tap along the front of your windpipe, or...

The throat is just cartilage so you can train the surrounding muscles to be larger (covering more of the throat/standing out more from it) but the weak points will be the same.

Off topic - sorry

imperial_guardz

01-Dec-2003, 10:40 PM

The reason for this is that the aim of something like Tai Chi, as I understand it (and please correct me anyone if I am wrong here), is not just to give your opponent a bump on the head, but to seriously damage and even kill your attacker.
I'm sorry Shaded, but...I have to disagree to that statement...
Shaolin arts were kepts within the Shaolin Temples for many hundred years...forbidden to public because of one philosophy...Shaolin Monks are buddist...and the arts were kept only for buddist because it was intended not to kill, but to defend.
Buddist believes a life is a life no matter how big or small...and everything deserve to live...so you should not kill...no matter what...no revenge, no nothing...Not even an ant!
So I would have to say that statement is false...Shaolin arts is not meant to kill...but to defend...Shaolin monks learn the art of killing in order for further understand to go around these techniques, to prevent killing...If you don't believe me...go to the shaolin temple!

The beginning of the curving movement is a block/rollback/diffusion of the attack, and it is supposed to blend naturally into the next movement (using the attacker's momentum as well as your own) to rebound/redirect/sweep as an attack. So the principle is that one curve (defend/attack) is faster than two straight lines (block/attack).
That only works if your more skilled then your opponent! But if your opponent is a master of straight line attacks, try and begin your circular motion, and it won't work...Face a good wing chun opponent!

How can I condition this strike. Just tell me what you guys did and your insights. What did you guys do to condition your forearms, shins, and body.
I have to agree with David on these conditioning technique...however he seems more hardcore into conditioning than I am...so...uhh...I don't do some of them...[rubs neck and head]...

Imperial Guardz

nzric

01-Dec-2003, 10:49 PM

Tai chi is a wudang art, not a Shaolin art.

No matter what variation of the history you go by, it's pretty universally agreed that it was invented by doctors, then disappeared and was revived by the Chen family, who kept it as a family technique until Yang Lu Chan made it popular (in the army/court of the Emperor). It draws a lot on techniques from Wudang mountain, among other places, but it has nothing to do with monks.

"....Face a good wing chun opponent!..."
A common topic of conversation in tai chi circles. A lot of tai chi/internal arts methods are designed to specifically counter wing chun.

Also, tai chi isn't something that you learn quickly, I never said it was easy! Even the top masters say it takes years (I think about six is the agreed time) of the correct training to be able to confidently defend yourself with tai chi. If you go to an external arts dojo, after a few months you will be able to do a reasonable punch/side kick, but the martial aspect is only one tiny side of why people learn tai chi (that's why it's not for everyone - it's not a quick fix).

imperial_guardz

01-Dec-2003, 11:11 PM

Tai chi is a wudang art, not a Shaolin art.
I am well aware...I'm just stating that...Shaolin Arts weren't made to kill...unlike Wudang!
So we wouldn't be doing moves to kill...unless required.
A guy threatens you with a baseball bat...if you can safely disarm him...and get away without killing him...why would you commit manslaughter right? That's my point of view...but then again...I'm a buddist as well...so I share the shaolin aspects and do not kill at all...no disrespect to Wudang.

Yeah I have read that Tai Chi was created by doctors...but I am not a Tai Chi practitioner so I haven't followed up on the art. So I do not know too much about the history...just the basics...

If you go to an external arts dojo, after a few months you will be able to do a reasonable punch/side kick, but the martial aspect is only one tiny side of why people learn tai chi (that's why it's not for everyone - it's not a quick fix).
Well that may be true...but to be efficient in it requires many many years...for example...my style is a balance between internal and external martial arts and it takes over 15 years to become a master of the arts...even more than that! So saying that Tai Chi requires more dedication is so self-centered! White Crane or mantis...as well as any other martial arts takes just as much dedication to become a true master of the art!

Syd

01-Dec-2003, 11:16 PM

I was about to bother responding to all of the above (Goat & Guardz) and then I just went; nahhhhhhhh

Lifes too short, ;)

nzric

01-Dec-2003, 11:26 PM

All I'm saying is that it's much easier to throw a straight punch or to learn a roundhouse than it is to learn fajing or a joint break. I wasn't talking about becoming a master. If you learn many other arts for a couple of years, you could be pretty confident using a lot of what you learned in a street fight, but if you learned tai chi, you'd be stupid trying to go into a real fight with an internal style after just a year or two of training.

I'll leave the other comments. We should keep this thread about the phoenix eye.

Syd

01-Dec-2003, 11:31 PM

Rich,

I hope you didn't think I was reffering to your last post? I was talking about
Goat and Guardz.

Syd, ;)

nzric

01-Dec-2003, 11:54 PM

No, I was referring to guardz' comment re: tai chi needing dedication and saying I was talking about normal fighting ability, not becoming a master.

So - How 'bout that phoenix eye !

Syd

02-Dec-2003, 12:21 AM

Yeah, gee.... I think I'll stick a phoenix eye on my Christmas list and hope Santa comes up with the goods!

Must be how Rudolph copped that red nose.... Santa & his phoenix eye.

zun

02-Dec-2003, 01:32 AM

Geeezzuz!

How'd I miss this thread???

I swear there must something wrong with my settings or something!

Oh, well. Good read anyhow.

I was about to bother responding to all of the above (Goat & Guardz) and then I just went; nahhhhhhhh

Lifes too short,

A tai chi master avoiding the imminent kill :D

nzric

02-Dec-2003, 02:51 AM

Or setting up for it. Relaxed posture... radar scanning for vulnerabilities... sung stance...

Shade

02-Dec-2003, 12:02 PM

Hi again imperial_guardz,

forgive me. As i said I was speaking purely from an outsiders point of view.

Obviously someone practising Tai Chi isnt going to go into a competition or fight thinking, hey i am going to kill this person. I understand that the majority of strikes made by someone practising Tai Chi on an attacker are designed to knock the attacker out cold.

However, there are killer strikes taught. Have a look at some of the videos made by Erle Montaigue as he talks about strikes that will kill your opponent if used. He is not saying do them, just that there are killer strikes.

Thats all I was saying.

goatnipples2002

02-Dec-2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by nzric
Do it yourself - press the hollow in the base of your throat (at the throat part, not the top of your chest),
Off topic - sorry

The point you are talking about is cv22. My most favorite place to strike. It shuts ANYBODY up! heeheehaahaa!:D

I believe you also said that the reason you don't condition externally is because you focus on striking vital soft targets. What the hell do you think I do. I just condition externally for the piece of mind that my finger, wrist, or hand won't break. If you practice striking anywhere but vital spots you need to rethink your training. As anybody with fighting experience knows not all of your strikies are going to land where you want them to.

(you should use the PP names, it makes it easier to describe..... do you know the names, if you don't I got a site for you?)

Why do people use the word opponent when it comes to self defence? Are you in the ring? I just hate the fukked up mind set that people have of self defence.

IT'S NOT AN OPPONENT, IT'S AN ATTACKER, YOU DO NOT KILL OPPONENTS.....YOU KILL ATTACKERS!

Shade

02-Dec-2003, 04:06 PM

I am guilty of using attacker and opponent in my last post but do not apologise for it.

Dont know about you but my dictionary says opponent means one who opposes another. And for oppose it says to argue or fight against.

That sounds like an attacker to me :D

zun

02-Dec-2003, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
IT'S NOT AN OPPONENT, IT'S AN ATTACKER, YOU DO NOT KILL OPPONENTS.....YOU KILL ATTACKERS!

No difference in tai chi. They both get killed.

goatnipples2002

02-Dec-2003, 09:26 PM

NO an opponent is in the ring trying to win the match. Nobody says look at his attacker throw a low roundhouse. It's about mindset.

An attacker is someone trying to take your life or rob you or rape you. Nobody says 3 opponents raped that girl.

**** the dictionary. IT'S ALL ABOUT YOUR MINDSET. Have you ever heard Where the MIND goes the body will FOLLOW. It really doesn't matter if you agree or not. We can agree to disagree and talk about some conditioning techs. or experiences. Just tryin to give some insight. (my sig says it all)

NEways how's yall's day. I learned a new hubud today. I love it.

nzric

02-Dec-2003, 09:39 PM

...I believe you also said that the reason you don't condition externally is because you focus on striking vital soft targets. ..

No, I said (and Syd's been saying as well) that we don't do traditional external conditioning because qigong exercises and the nature of tai chi means you're not meeting force on force, so you don't need to do that conditioning (also, it's bad for your body in the long-term, so it's against the principles of tai chi).

Of course you should train your body and your muscles - the only thing I disagree with is knocking your knuckles around until you thicken the skin/fuse the bone/deaden the nerves.

RubyMoon

02-Dec-2003, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
NO an opponent is in the ring trying to win the match. Nobody says look at his attacker throw a low roundhouse. It's about mindset. When discussing martial arts techniques, the word "opponent" is perfectly suitable. It applies to any situation without implying anything more. What if you are the attacker rather than your...opponent? In the case of defending another person, this is entirely possible. The term "opponent" is perfect for training purposes because it is empty of emotional attachment, thus creating the ideal "mindset" for serious study and practice.

nzric

02-Dec-2003, 10:34 PM

True, saying "attacker" predisposes you towards seeing your role as the "defender".

Now that statement proves I'm bored!

adversary, antagonist, anti, aspirant, assailant, bad guy, bandit, bidder, candidate, challenger, competitor, con, contestant, counteragent, dark horse, disputant, dissentient, enemy, entrant, foe, litigant, match, opposer, opposition, oppugnant, player, rival, scrapper

Syd

02-Dec-2003, 10:35 PM

A voice of reason in the wilderness...;)

Shade

02-Dec-2003, 11:07 PM

Gee thanks for such a balanced and enlightened response goatnipples.

**** the dictionary!

I bet your english teacher would be so proud.

And whether it is about mindset is one thing, but my initial comment that agrieved you so much was all about CONTEXT.

I would say look that up in the dictionary, but you obviously do not possess one seeing as you hold it in such disregard and contempt.

:woo:

Andy Murray

02-Dec-2003, 11:58 PM

This thread is heading for the bin!

Back on track people please!

zun

03-Dec-2003, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
NO an opponent is in the ring trying to win the match. Nobody says look at his attacker throw a low roundhouse. It's about mindset.

Opponent is someone who is not on my side or my team.

Attacker is someone who is intending to cause me harm.

A fighter is someone in or out of the ring who fights.

My mindset is to survive. Opponent attacker or fighter - when the andreline flows they are all the same to me.

Anyhow, let's get it back to phoenix eye conditioning....

Ways to externally condition the back of your hand:

Back slapping cold water
Back slapping a bag of sand
Phoenix punching rice
Phoenix punching phonebook held up against a wall
Phoenix punching the bark of a tree

Andy - hopes this retrieves the thread from the sin-bin

nzric

03-Dec-2003, 12:55 AM

So what everyone's saying about the conditioning is start out with soft stuff (like cold porridge or your pillow), then when you can take it like a man, move onto wood and concrete. Basically

Just make sure if you are going to do the conditioning, gradually increase the resistance/force. It's a fine line between strengthening your hands and doing real damage (arthritis at 45 anyone?), and the pain barrier is not a good guide for this.

Syd

03-Dec-2003, 01:36 AM

There is a third method that nobody has yet identified. I call it the Mr Han Man Enter the Dragon method.

Step 1. Have your right hand mysteriously removed from your body and then encased behind glass cabinet in super villain island lair.

Step 2. Collect all kinds of prosthetic attachments for missing limb that resemble a deadly ensemble from some tasty country carvery.

Step 3. Invite lots of cool arsed Mo-Fo's with afro's and big hair, who can fight like those Kung Fu dudes in chop saki pictures to said island lair.

Step 4. Proceed to wear black leather gloves to conceal deadly prosthetic so that when final deadly duel comes you have the element of surprise without all that pesky conditioning!

Step 5. Kill Mr Ropers best afro dude buddy with said deadly steel hand with repeated chop saki attack!

Step 6. The plot thickens....

Step 7. Have prosthetic steel hand created in the shape of phoenix eye fist and then take on that little Chinese cat baby yeahhhh!

Step 8. Oh s h i t! Mr Han blew it and place too much confidence in phoenix fist and has to ditch it in favour of a furry claw!!!!

Step 9. Get tricky and run into mirrored chamber and hide with said furry claw, all the while hoping that some other fist might do the trick...

Step 10. Whoops... Mr Han gets his arse kicked!

Epilogue...

Mr Han Man lacked a plan, helicopters ensue and lots of official 70's dudes flock to the scene whilst Han rotates on mirrored spear door like a piggy on the spit.

The END ... YAYAYAYAYAYYA