Insight after witnessing a violent fight (long winded)

[luis]

hello,

Just last night I happened to witness a complex and very violent street fight and now I have some things to vent and ask here. Sorry if this is long winded but I need to share this and ask about some issues.
I'll relate the story:

This happened at midnight, in the downtown part of a colonial town in Oaxaca, Mexico (crowded tourist destination, well lit, open spaces.)
I was arriving at a street corner with a friend of mine, a German friend and a French girl. Suddenly I heard a thud and the sound of a metal pipe against the stone floor. I'm still a bit surprised at how I was actually able to sense danger instantly by those just sounds happening out of my sight and 50 meters away.
I felt a rush and immediately called my friend back into the street we were coming from. The foreigners which were with me didn't understand so I pulled the German guy and told him to run up the street. I couldn't remember how to call the girl in French and she couldn't see me calling her.By then I heard yelling and sprinting footsteps coming. My friend understood my urgency and yelled at her to move back to safety.
The second after this girl ducked into the street we were on I just saw about six bottles fly by and shatter on the sidewalk. My friend and the German guy were moving fastly up the street to a plaza with more lighting, and some outdoor cafes and restaurants. I ran up, grabbed the girl and pushed her to run and catch up.
All this happenend in a flash, only a few seconds. After I had seen the bottles and the glass I see this guy overshoot the street corner and at the same time I hear more footsteps and a thud against the building's cornerstone. The guy who ran past starts yelling "pin him, get him," ducks down and smashes another bottle a few feet from where I was standing. With the jagged half bottle in his hand he runs to the corner where I could only see what appeared to be a guy being held against a wall by two or more other guys.
By now I as jogging up the street to tell my friends to get away. I didn't hear any more glass breaking or any screams from the pinned guy. I hope he's ok. I catch up with my group and tell them to keep moving.
As we reach the square I looked back to see a hot dog cart fall over, and what I thought was a police siren. A minute or two later, when we had distanced ourselves enough and I had told my friends to go back to the hotel I saw another guy just pop out from some other street. He was running all out in my direction, with four or five other guys chasing him with their belts in their hands, most of them had their shirts torn and soaked in blood. From somewhere else came his buddy; they were escaping side by side. One of them could not clear a hedgerow they tried to jump over and he got trapped in a hedgerow enclosure beside the main plaza. All but one of the guys chasing just started to beat him horribly, the other kept chasing the other one.
This was happening at most ten meters away from me so again I sent my friends into a crowd in the opposite direction. The fallen guy was on his hands and knees, being beat down and screaming for the police. The other chased guy turned around and tried to get back and save his friend but he encountered his pursuer and I saw them start a one on one, the chased guy managed to keep his pursuer away because he was swinging what looked like a dog leash, the pursuer had a long metal pipe but he was not getting close to strike. This went on for a while, the guy with the leash managed to knock his opponent with a really hard blow with the heavy part of his leash to the side of the head I didn't see him again. The beaten guy was collapsed,and was a mess. One of his attackers knelt down beside him and started saying something while he choked him. I don't think he was still conscious.
Tourists and merchants in the plaza got startled, some ran off, I asume, to get the police. At this point my friends called to me from a distance. As I joined them a big group of foreign tourists was walking obliviously towards the fight. I told one of them to go around instead. From there I just went to my hotel.

My foreign friends did see some of the violence but thought they were not in immediate peril. As far as I saw no police showed up and I did not see any present so I could notify them.
The whole thing looked like a gang related incident, all the guys involved looked to be in their early twenties, or younger. They were Mexican street thugs.

the issues I want to adress/ask here are the following:

I had never witnessed violence as vicious as this, fights do break out in my country, I have seen some, but I had never seen up close someone so intent on brutally killing another person. Witnessing this I wondered how I could in theory and ideally deal with situations like these.
After we saw the fight my friend said
"you know kung fu, couldn't you have stopped that fight and saved that guy? They were only four or five but I've seen you practice staff and kicks, and they looked tired from all that sprinting"

I started wondering what could have I done. I think what I did was acceptable, except for me not getting the police.

Now I'm quite motivated to train and practise many times more than what I do now. It's all I think about now. I want to get more sprinting endurance, all around conditioning, strength, everything, etc.

what do you think?

sorry for the rant

[alex_000]

I started wondering what could have I done. I think what I did was acceptable, except for me not getting the police.



You did ok.

They train to be thugs on the street in MEXICO from day 1 so they can have a life , and you train kung fu in a dojo.

What makes you think that your training and theirs can be compaired? If you are attacked react as best as you can, but trying to save somone you don't know by beating out 4 mexican thugs is another thing, it can be really bad for you - meaning you'll get stabbed in a second.

[Guerilla Fists]

The best thing to do would be to not enter an environment that could put you in that situation.

As far as intervening - I think Alex said it already. I would also add that you did a better service in taking actions to protect your friends rather than risk your life for a stranger.

[Judderman]

You did the right thing. You got you and your friends to safety, you even tried to warn others. This is far nicer than being beaten to death. I'm sure the police would prefer a healthy witness than another murder to investigate.

It is also good that this event has spurred you into further training. Trust me, this is just the tip of the ice-burg.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

wait a minute- being beaten near to death by 5 crazed gang members is the tip of the iceberg?

I have a question though- after witnessing this beatdown, do you think anyone could actually hold off 5 attackers? I ask this because I have seen a similar occurence (but with only 4 guys vs one other) and I could not see any way the one guy could possible have won. It certainly changed my perspective on self defense.

and lets face it, had you gotten involved it would probably have caused you a great deal of harm- you and one unconscious guy vs 5 crazy gangsters is not a good scenario.

[Mushroom]

I think you did fine, as mentioned before you got people to safety. You didnt know the guys who got beat up and to be honest it wasnt really your business. (sounds cold but true)
Just because you learn martial arts does not mean you have the responsibility to attempt to stop a street fight especially when you know that the odds are against you.
And even if you did, what do you think would happen in the long run? The gang members may hold a grudge. One day you bump into them and its you who they are aiming the bottles at.

You did what you could have done..helped others around you.

[Dr NinjaBellydance]

Just because you know MA doesnt mean that you are obliged to put yourself at risk, especially in as scary a situation as that. You also had your friends to protect. If you had waded in there you could have got yourself injured and they would have been left unprotected. To be honest, I think if you had done that you would have been brave and admirable but reckless. As it is, as far as I am concerned you did the best thing that you could have. Sometimes heroics just isnt the right thing to do.
Take care
x

[Matt_Bernius]

There's no question that you did the right thing. Kung fu or not, you had no idea what situation you were walking into. Further, it was an ARMED gang. Trying to go into that, by yourself, is signing a death warrent for yourself.

Trying to get the police was the responsible thing. You owe it to yourself, to your friends and to your family to get home safe. Honestly, and somewhat cruelly, you don't own anything to the victim of the attack.

- Matt

[GojuKJoe]

i also agree, you did the right thing. you didn't know anything about the people involved in the fight. for all you know the ones who were on the run could have been 'the bad guys'. my point is, you were definately right to get yourself and your friends out of danger and not get involved, i say, well done.

[Kwajman]

In a gang attack such as that, survival is the key. Whether it be cover and protect, or run and hide. For you to get involved might mean two people seriously hurt instead of one. Thats a question thats been asked here before and its tough to answer.

[luis]

Thanks for replying guys.
I've thought it over and accepted that there is no real chance of faring well in a 1 vs 5 fight, regardless of the details of any situation.
Living here in Mexico myself, my family and almost everyone I know has been a victim of crime at some point. I have had to deal with street thugs and gangs before, either by handing over anything on me or by outrunning those I saw viable.

I still know I want to train twice as much as I train now, in every aspect. I'm considering getting into a very external style of kung fu as well, since I realize that in all my internal training I've never sparred full contact, or recieved any blow.
I hope I never get into a fight, ever. I still want to train a lot to increase my odds in a fight I hope never happens.

luisd

[G_Man]

In this situation my main response would be to protect myself and the people I care about. If I never set foot in Mexico again it will be too soon. I’ve been to border towns twice when I lived in TX and also to Cozumel last year on a cruise, never again. I train in MA, lift weights, run, and know how to use a variety of weapons. My wife thinks I over protective. My motto is, “I’d rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it”.

[Sgt_Major]

In this situation my main response would be to protect myself and the people I care about. If I never set foot in Mexico again it will be too soon. I’ve been to border towns twice when I lived in TX and also to Cozumel last year on a cruise, never again. I train in MA, lift weights, run, and know how to use a variety of weapons. My wife thinks I over protective. My motto is, “I’d rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it”.

excellent motto!

[CobraMaximus]

Dude, Im not bragging but Im pretty damn strong for my size and quite good at karate yet even I would have problems taking on a huge group. Staying safe was all you could do unless you sould have gotten a weapon. Had you been able to use Dim-Mak strikes or something so all of them began to weaken and so on you might have been able to help but I doubt in such a close area anyone could have had them all in an all out fight.

[masteryoursoul]

I think you did exactly what you should have done, and I am thankful you didn't get any delusions of grandeur and decide that you were kinda like bruce lee, and you could take em. I don't care if your a 23rd degree blackbelt, its 5 armed gang members who likely live their lives in physical conflict.

But I wish to impose a question upon you. What if it had been only one member of that gang armed or unarmed, throttling that poor guy on the ground. Would you have stepped in then and helped the man as he screamed for help? I know that it isn't your problem, but itsn't this the problem with society today, no one wants to get involved, and its never anyones concern. What I want to know really, is when does it become your problem, when does it become your 'civic duty' to cross that line and stand up for whats right? At what point in time does it change from 'turn and look away' to put your foot down and make your point known, whether it be in violent situations, politics, or anything.

Note: I am accusing no one of being a heartless bystander when I state the problems of society. Unarguably there was nothing you could have done against these five assailants. I know many of us would like to think that we would get involved and save the day, but this isn't always the case.

[Lance Havock]

I know many of us would like to think that we would get involved and save the day, but this isn't always the case.

I am a bouncer in several bars in my city. I get paid to save the day as you put it, and it gets old quick.

Had you been able to use Dim-Mak strikes or something so all of them began to weaken and so on you might have been able to help but I doubt in such a close area anyone could have had them all in an all out fight.

forgive me, but are dim mak strikes instantanious

I realize that in all my internal training I've never sparred full contact, or recieved any blow.

At least you are willing to admit that, the problem with dealing with scubs on the street is that they past the psychology of a fight. And they are not intimidated by your martial arts training.

Just because you know MA doesnt mean that you are obliged to put yourself at risk, especially in as scary a situation as that.

ninja belly dance has just pooped the correct

I have a question though- after witnessing this beatdown, do you think anyone could actually hold off 5 attackers?

anything is possible, but chances are real slim. If you are going to fight with more that one person at a time you have to be the aggressor or drop the one in the group that is doing all the talking. But I would prefer to not fight them at all.

I started wondering what could have I done. I think what I did was acceptable, except for me not getting the police.

whatever you do in the first few seconds is probably the best move. If you ran great, if you were to stay and fight cool. As long as you make a decision and stick to it, whatever is fine with me.