conditioning ideas

[goatnipples2002]

How can I SAFELY condition my Ippon-ken? How do I condition the inner (bone, ligaments, joints) as well as outter hand (skin and nerves)?

[Guitarboy1212]

make or buy a Makiwara

http://www.ctr.usf.edu/shotokan/makiwara.html

[TkdWarrior]

sorry frm wat i know Makiwara is not conditioning equipment...
it's more of learning correct form
anyone correct me??
-TkdWarrior-

[Andrew Green]

Yes, it is used to develop punching power. Some use it to condition the knuckles though. Hitting as makiwara with an Ippon ken will definately condition it. But I wouldn't recommend it.

Don't try to condition it is the best you can do.

But if you do decide you have to only hit soft things and start slow. You can do pushups on it, on a soft surface.

If it hurts a lot, don't do it.

Just remember, this is a "novelty skill", not a practical one.

[Adam]

START PUNCHING THEM TREES! TREES MUST BE DESTROYED!!!! MUHAHAHAHA!!

Seriously, punching trees can and will condition your hands very well, if you don't mind the arthiritis and broken knuckles.

Like Andrew says, start slow, then scale up gradually.

[paul paterson]

Conditioning Ideas.....

Your ippon ken uchi is a weapon that is used for hitting the softer parts of the body and in reality does not need to be conditioned. Think about it for a minute or two, why would you want to condition your one knucle fist when you are hitting an area such as the soft parts of the cheek or the biceps or even the quad's or the temple or any other soft part of the body. The ippon ken is used at close range compared to that of a chudan gyaku tsuki which is a more forward thrusting hit.

The Makiwara is an ideal way of conditioning the seiken part of the fist, the rear or backhand - haishu, the knife edge - shuto, or any other part of the hand, even the feet, elbow, forearms and shin can be used on the makiwara. The ethos behind the makiwara is NOT to see how hard you can hit but it is about attaining the right feel, force, energy, etc. You are concentrating on the very last moment as the fist screws into the board, your breath and posture must be right and is an aid for finding these elements of your art form. When hitting it, it will be sore and it will hurt, be sure to breath out and kiai as you hit it and aim for small numbers at first, then build up. A good book to read and see how it is done is " Mas Oyama's Essential Karate" or buy Sensei Morio Higaonna's - Power Training video. Both have first class demo's and are one way of seeing how its done before you get to try it for yourself, again go to someone who has been doing Makiwara training for tens of years and has learnt how to do it correctly.

As for hitting trees, Brilliant stuff..... mind you, do it when no one is about as you tend to get people looking at you. Pick a tree with smooth bark and a tree of soft wood, not hard (not oak but willow etc). Some people wrapp pillows around them but is far too easy, hit the tree as if it were the makiwara itself. Hit walls, hit floors, or get a log and support it in a vice and hit it.

Please children....donot do this at home.

You should NEVER, never let children hit a makiwara or tree or any other hard object until he or she is over 16/17 and knows what they are doing. Remember that young kids bodies as still growing and will be soft so please donot be silly and let kids hit these objects.

Right, enough said.

So get hitting those trees people....

Osu.

Paul Paterson.

[Knight_Errant]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO !

Do not hit a makiwara, and especially do not hit any ****ing trees whatsoever. You could end up not hitting anything ever again by abusing the bones in your hand. Do not prod a punching bag with your ippon ken either. Wear gloves and hit a punching bag.

[paul paterson]

YES YES YES.....

Osu.

As I said in my last post, the ippon ken is a tool used for the softer parts of the human body. And yes it would be very stupid to hit a tree or makiwara with an ippon ken but as for hitting a tree or makiwara, or anything else with a good seiken, hiza geri, hiji ate etc. Then go for it.... As for "you could end up not hitting anything ever again by abusing the bones in your hand". What a load of mince, think before you speak or write. Just remember that even putting on gloves and hitting a punch bag can be termed as abusing, so please....

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

[Knight_Errant]

yeah, but that way at least you have some form of cushioning for your striking resistance training. I will continue to be a voice of dissent in this respect. I direct you to the shotokan planet for a better sumarising and add that I was told by a serious amateur boxer never to hit anything solid and wooden regularly.

[paul paterson]

Osu

Ah...then that applies to us mere wee humans who also have solid bodies. Look, listen and Observe...then we can start to learn

Osu
Paul Paterson.

[goatnipples2002]

When you guys say you shouldn't condition a weapon that is better suited towards softer targets, you sound naive! IF you've ever been in a REAL fight, I SAID IF, you would know that none of your strikes are gonna land where you want them to 100% of the time. So just in case you hit a harder target your knuckle wouldn't break!

[JediMasterChris]

Calm down! :yeleyes:


You sounds pretty serious for a guy who has the word nipple in his name. :D

[LilBunnyRabbit]

When you guys say you shouldn't condition a weapon that is better suited towards softer targets, you sound naive! IF you've ever been in a REAL fight, I SAID IF, you would know that none of your strikes are gonna land where you want them to 100% of the time. So just in case you hit a harder target your knuckle wouldn't break!

Alternatively you do something quite blatanly obvious to most people, and avoid doing a strike that is, unless it hits target, less effective than a plain and simple punch.

[JediMasterChris]

I agree with CKD on this one.

[Knight_Errant]

yeah, people have solid bodies, but the fibres in wood present a resistance to the force you apply to it using a punch. It will either break or bend. If it breaks, you break it and the punch propels the pieces of the bit of wood forward. There is also a reaction force working against your knuckles. This could be strong enough to break them or simply to create a serious injury over time. If it bends, the same resistance force applies, but there is no resultant force(assuming your stance absorbs the shock.) If the bit of wood isn't giving way, then you are absorbing the impact with your stance, thus actually WEAKENING your technique. A makiwara is only any use IF it has padding such as will not damage your hands AND it bends enough to offer effective resistance. A much easier way of achieving this is with bag and gloves. If the board smacks back aganst your hand and you do not feel intense pain, you are not hitting the board hard enough. Get your lazy hand in before it creates a problem for you. All the above statements are factual.

You also want to be listening to CKD about the ippon ken. with a huge amount of training, you just might be able to use it in a real fight. This training would have to include real fights. That said, if you use a large-area technique e.g. palm to chin, gouge eyes, grab hair, jerk head, you stand much less chance of damaging yourself than if you punch them in the forehead.

osu.

[Knight_Errant]

Come on, detractors! stand up to me!

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by JediMasterChris
Calm down! :yeleyes:


You sounds pretty serious for a guy who has the word nipple in his name. :D

A name is a name. My real name is Goatman, but my close friends tend to make fun of me and call me goatnipples.

[Saz]

Hand conditioning is useful, it toughens up the knuckles and hands so that when you thump someone, it doesn't hurt you so much. You carry on and and hit nice soft things if you want, but when you hit hard bone, its going to hurt. If you hand condition, it hurts you less and them more.

If you seriously think it weakens your technique, test it out. Get thumped by someone who's done years of conditioning, and someone who hasn't done any. You'll see which punch is more effective.

I agree with CKDstudent too (this is becoming a frequent thing Jim;)), a lot of techinques that we learn in the dojo like Ippon Ken just aren't practical on the street. If your main objective is to save your butt and get out of there, then getting rid of the other person as quickly and efficently as possible is your safest bet.

[goatnipples2002]

personally I have given up on the one knuckle punch because I like the snake fist better. I understand why I don't need to condition my fingers because I strike at the throat and the armpits alot. I can hit these spots pretty hard and cause alot of damage with no unjuries to m, but I have been practicing with this fist for about a year.

I'm going to marry CV22 because I love that spot! IMO no point on the body gives me the same openings whether I hit or miss! It's my entry attack and follow up attack. Outside of this I like to hit between the armpit and chest muscle with a diagnol punch or one knuckle punch (depends on my anger at the moment, excuse me i mean ki, lol).

[Knight_Errant]

I'll resist the temptation to be bitchy, and actually try some hand conditioning, then deliver the verdict. If I ruin my fingers it's your fault.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by Knight_errant
I'll resist the temptation to be bitchy, . If I ruin my fingers it's your fault.

ONLY BITCHES act bitchy. and if you ruin your fingers it's your own damn fault

[Knight_Errant]

Oh sod it. It's a crap idea, it's not going to work and I refuse to do it. Anyone who thinks punching 'nice, soft things' like a punchbag with gloves on is girly and/or doesn't work should go a few rounds with a boxer and find out.

[Adam]

Indeed, but take the boxer, make him remove his gloves and pitch him against someone with the same skill and power plus hand conditioning and see whose punches get weak from knuckle pain first.

I actually dislike using gloves in bagwork, I think it makes you loose the feel of your opponent and the fight. Gloves should only be used in those matches with head punches. Kyokushin is gloveless, but it's without head punches too.

[Knight_Errant]

Indeed, but take the boxer, make him remove his gloves and pitch him against someone with the same skill and power plus hand conditioning and see whose punches get weak from knuckle pain first.
You are implying the boxer would lose? I very much doubt that.

[JediMasterChris]

Come on, guys lets not turn this into a big arguement, and errant, put some thought into your posts please, when I look down the thing of threads they were all last replyed by you and that is not a problem but you are negative about something or another in almost all of them! Let's try to keep a positive attitude here guys. Errant, look at your profile, you have well over 40 posts per day!

[Knight_Errant]

Yes, that's because I am currently 'revising'. I don't do things by halves... I'll try to stop being negative, promise.

[Adam]

I mean if two BOXERS were to fight without gloves and one of them had hand conditioning.

[Knight_Errant]

Ok... I have to say I honestly do not know.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Indeed, but take the boxer, make him remove his gloves and pitch him against someone with the same skill and power plus hand conditioning and see whose punches get weak from knuckle pain first.

With bare knuckles I very much doubt it would be knuckle pain slowing them down, probably more to do with repeated concussive shocks to the head slowing them down, knuckle pain isn't really felt until after the fight, so conditioning really doesn't matter.

[Knight_Errant]

hmm...

[Saz]

I don't know about that.. I feel other pain after fights, but knuckle pain seems to register straight away for me. As it does when I do my press ups

[Knight_Errant]

I occasionally hit my bag with bare knuckles. It tends to hurt.

[Adam]

Experience talking: I've broken my knuckles (or the two front ones at least) TWO OR THREE TIMES! and it does hurt straight away. And the pain is extreme when punching. Go on, you try it. I'd be impressed if you can KO people with your hand screaming bloody murder when you twitch your fingers.

And CKDstudent, you are right, the knuckles being damaged would be the least of your worries in a bare knuckle boxing match, but the one with the conditioned hands would have the advantage.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
With bare knuckles I very much doubt it would be knuckle pain slowing them down, probably more to do with repeated concussive shocks to the head slowing them down, knuckle pain isn't really felt until after the fight, so conditioning really doesn't matter. YoU should have said minor knuckle pain isn't felt. Let's see you break a knuckle and see how long it takes for it to hurt you, probably instantly. Let me destruct one of your punches as a lesson on why to condition. OH let me guess you don't practice destructions either? If you condition your hands right you should never break a bone which is the purpose of conditioning, or have you guys forgot about iron fist and the iron master, that guy who can punch steel plates and dent them. He can't write very well with one of his hands, but it still proves the point that conditioning is essential and if you don't do it YOU PRACTICE A PUSSY ASS ART.!!!!!.

[YODA]

if you don't do it YOU PRACTICE A PUSSY ASS ART.!!!!!.


LOL! I guess I practice a pussy ass art then. LOL!

Dent steel plates - Bwaaahahahahaaaaa.....

Put down the DVD remote and get a grip dude - this is reality not some wire flying chi-ball blasting anime flick.

[Knight_Errant]

hehehehehe if the beady eyes of the moderating team weren't on me, I might say something similair...

[YODA]

Originally posted by Knight_errant
hehehehehe if the beady eyes of the moderating team weren't on me, I might say something similair...



Go for it! Just keep it clean & TRY to be as respectful as possible.

[Adam]

I suppose it, as usual, depends on what you want to accomplish with your training. If you want to be able to fist-break bricks or fight bareknuckle matches, some conditioning might be in order. If gloves (yuck) are your thing, then fist conditioning might be less important.

Each to his own. I'll stick with the conditioning of the hands as I believe it's a necessity if you want to use fist punches.

[Knight_Errant]

OK, if you want to. I'll just express the opinion that conditioning the hands doesn't make them tougher, it just increases the risks of arthritis. Remember: your joints are kept supple by bags containing a lubricant called synovial fluid. You could damage these by the shock of punching something hard repeatedly. This could mean that they have to be surgically removed. There is a whole mental image going on here...

[Adam]

Doesn't make them tougher? Then how can you explain the iron hands and knuckles some people get from using makiwari? How do you explain people fist breaking concrete without ending up with a fistful of searing pain? I'm sorry, but that's about as uneducated a statement as anything. It may or may not be USEFUL to you in person, but it really does make the hands tougher.

Surgical removal of the joints? I really, really don't think so. Conditioning can make your hands and fingers stiff and inflexible, it doesn't turn you into a cripple.

[Knight_Errant]

I can explain it very very easily: it doesn't happen. People don't punch through convrete walls. The aim of makiwara training is to make your punches stronger by strengthening the relevant muscles. Surgical removal of the joints? I really, really don't think so. Oh yes, it can happen. I am referring to the bags of synovial fluid in the little joints in your fingers. You can damage these a lot more easily than you think. i could hunt down a quote from my medical book, but you aren't going to listen to me anyway. I am getting thoroughly bored of this topic.

[Adam]

Getting bored? Okay. Closing comment: Let's just all do whatever stupid things we fancy, so long as we believe it's working for us. My truth isn't neccesarily your truth.

But anyway, the two of us are hardly the most qualified people to discuss this. I think I'll go look up joint damage. Thanks.

[Knight_Errant]

Each to his own and his own to each. Have fun!

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by YODA
LOL! I guess I practice a pussy ass art then. LOL!

Dent steel plates - Bwaaahahahahaaaaa.....

Put down the DVD remote and get a grip dude - this is reality not some wire flying chi-ball blasting anime flick.


No **** i thought this was some big ass game :woo: . What I was trying to say is that without conditioning your body might not be able to withstand the pressure of the force exerted from a powerful strike and /or a misplaced strike or for that matter a well placed attack. I would also let you know there are different types of conditioning. The dude who punches steel was only an example, I don't want to punch steel nor do I have a disire to punch steel. I would like to have the reassurance of knowing that my limb won't snap or shatter because of a..... well placed strike..... misplaced strike..... a destruction.

It wouldn't happen in a day,but think about how long you've been training and if you would've been doing "resistance condition drills" you might be twice as good as your current state.

The more you can take is the more you can dish out.

[JediMasterChris]

Calm down nipple.

[Knight_Errant]

I would like to have the reassurance of knowing that my limb won't snap or shatter because of a..... well placed strike..... misplaced strike..... a destruction.
Yeah, it's called newtonian physics... if you've been doing your pushups and drills like a good little boy, it won't happen.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I would like to have the reassurance of knowing that my limb won't snap or shatter because of a..... well placed strike..... misplaced strike..... a destruction.

Then you want to avoid conditioning like the plague. Conditioning makes your bones tougher, and more brittle, making them more likely to shatter or have complicated fractures rather than a simple break.

[Adam]

Wrong. You'd be less likely to break them.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Then you want to avoid conditioning like the plague. Conditioning makes your bones tougher, and more brittle, making them more likely to shatter or have complicated fractures rather than a simple break.

Your don't have a clue of what your talking about. If what you are saying were true (which it isn't) then explain people who break stuff ib competitions? Explain the guys who possess iron skills, like iron.....head.....fist.....legs.....arms.....iron whatever? These skills have been acquired by these individuals through along and grueling process that takes many years of CONTROLLED MINOR ABUSE to the area of the body selected. Explain Thai Fighters shins?

Where do you practice? What art?

[Adam]

Or you could do like I did, a short time of uncontrolled major abuse to the area of the body selected :D

PS: keep it friendly please.

[Knight_Errant]

If this turns into a bitchfight, I'm going to leave it well alone. When bones are damaged, they heal WEAKER than before. Ask any good doctor. You can strengthen your bones and muscles through less sadomasochistic means e.g. mountain climbers have incredibly strong bones. Goatnipples: chill, man. Think a little before you reply to this post, eh?

[Adam]

Like goatnipples said, the best way is controlled minor abuse. That won't break any bones (except in my dumbassed case) and will leave the bones harder.

Is the topic still hand conditioning?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Your don't have a clue of what your talking about. If what you are saying were true (which it isn't) then explain people who break stuff ib competitions? Explain the guys who possess iron skills, like iron.....head.....fist.....legs.....arms.....iron whatever?

Go ask your GP about calcification and the causes of brittle bones.


Explain Thai Fighters shins?

Show me an old Thai fighter.


Where do you practice? What art?

I don't really see how this has an bearing on the discussion, but CKD, suprisingly.


Like goatnipples said, the best way is controlled minor abuse. That won't break any bones (except in my dumbassed case) and will leave the bones harder.

Yes, harder, but more brittle. If you want an example think of trying to break a stick, then imagine putting it in liquid nitrogen and trying again. It'll feel more solid, but it'll snap and/or shatter more easily.

[Adam]

And with the bones harder, there is less chance to break them in the first place, making living easier and less hazardous for you. :D

This could go on forever, as the game of the day seems to be word twisting and iron-headed denial from boyj sides of the debate, still it's pretty entertaining :D

Just as a point of interest, CKD, can you fist-break concrete, rocks and bricks?

[Knight_Errant]

*slap slap slap*

[AllOutWar]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Then you want to avoid conditioning like the plague. Conditioning makes your bones tougher, and more brittle, making them more likely to shatter or have complicated fractures rather than a simple break.

This sounds like an oxymoron, how can something be hard but more brittle? Those to me are extreme oposites. Like ADAM and Goat both pointed out if you do it in moderation you will be o.k. it's when you want to get sadistic that you'll take a turn for the worse. If you want to talk scientific, when your bones bruise and the healing process occurs if there is EXTREME bone damage you can actualy reverse the process. That does not pertain to slight to moderate bruises.

If you want to see an old Thai fighter try Thailand at one of there many Muay Thai camps. Most of the trainers are guys with over 200 fights under their belt...........But then again how would you know that? You're a CKD student?

[JediMasterChris]

Brittle and hard are not opposites the opposite of hard is soft. When a bone is conditioned it becomes harder and LESS likely to break, but when it DOES break it is more severe because of brittleness. Before conditioning the bone is MORE likely to break but when it DOES break it is a less severe break. Get it? I might know what I am talking about....but probably not. :D

[AllOutWar]

Originally posted by JediMasterChris
Brittle and hard are not opposites the opposite of hard is soft. When a bone is conditioned it becomes harder and LESS likely to break, but when it DOES break it is more severe because of brittleness. Before conditioning the bone is MORE likely to break but when it DOES break it is a less severe break. Get it? I might know what I am talking about....but probably not. :D

Well put. It does kinda give me a new insight, but to completly throw away conditioning sounds like trouble to me.

[JediMasterChris]

Conditioning is important both physical and mental, but if you are young it is a bad idea if your bones are still developing.

OK, if you want to. I'll just express the opinion that conditioning the hands doesn't make them tougher, it just increases the risks of arthritis. Remember: your joints are kept supple by bags containing a lubricant called synovial fluid. You could damage these by the shock of punching something hard repeatedly. This could mean that they have to be surgically removed. There is a whole mental image going on here...

I asked about this and did you know that popping your knuckles damages it the exact same way? Sergically removed? I doubt that. The damaging of the synovial fluid bags can cause stifness and at the worst it can cause temporary pain.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Just as a point of interest, CKD, can you fist-break concrete, rocks and bricks?

Done it once, while drunk, never done it sober, nor would I want to. When sober if I try it my self-preservation instinct kicks in and I pull the punch. The only conditioning you need is mental for breaking.


This sounds like an oxymoron, how can something be hard but more brittle?

No one would try to argue that diamonds are not incredibly hard, correct? However its slightly less known that they are extremely brittle. They cannot be ground down easily, but they can be shattered, which is in fact an important put of the cutting process.


If you want to see an old Thai fighter try Thailand at one of there many Muay Thai camps. Most of the trainers are guys with over 200 fights under their belt...........

Why aren't they still fighting?


But then again how would you know that? You're a CKD student?

And that has what to do with my knowledge of other martial arts? If you've got such a low opinion of me then I'm wasting my time with you. If someone does yoga, does that automatically mean that they only know yoga, and know nothing about martial arts?

[Cain]

Done it once, while drunk, never done it sober, nor would I want to. When sober if I try it my self-preservation instinct kicks in and I pull the punch. The only conditioning you need is mental for breaking.

Well, it's is'nt exactly mental, you will still break your knuckles if you have never prepared for it b'fore

No one would try to argue that diamonds are not incredibly hard, correct? However its slightly less known that they are extremely brittle. They cannot be ground down easily, but they can be shattered, which is in fact an important put of the cutting process.

Am afraid bones are completely different than diamonds

Why aren't they still fighting?

Maybe 'cause they have retired? Get some info b'fore you start spouting off that again

And that has what to do with my knowledge of other martial arts? If you've got such a low opinion of me then I'm wasting my time with you. If someone does yoga, does that automatically mean that they only know yoga, and know nothing about martial arts?

Yeah, it's probably means that, it's obvious you don't know much about conditioning.

If there's a person A who's done it for years, and then there's a person B who's never had any experience in it and claims A is wrong who do you think I should be listening to?

Overall that most conditioning I do for my knuckles is knuckle push ups and hitting the heavy bag, the tree hitting I believe is done on trees with a soft bark not the hard oak trees.

Conditioning can be good if done in moderation.

|Cain|

[YODA]

Conditioning can be good if done in moderation.

Correct - moderation in all things is a good guideline.

However, excess is usually SO much more fun :D

[Adam]

AYE! :D

[Adam]

For tree hitting I tend to favour birch? trees myself. I find oak a little hard on the wrist and knuckles.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Well, it's is'nt exactly mental, you will still break your knuckles if you have never prepared for it b'fore

Gee, and mine seem to be intact. Must be a miracle I guess.


Am afraid bones are completely different than diamonds

I wasn't comparing bones to diamond, I was trying to explain the difference between hard and brittle. As you condition bones they become harder, and more brittle.


Maybe 'cause they have retired? Get some info b'fore you start spouting off that again

Ditto.


Yeah, it's probably means that, it's obvious you don't know much about conditioning.

Actually I know more than you might imagine. I've spoken with a fair number of medically trained people, both students and doctors, and I've studied medical physics for some time. I know what impacts do to bones, cumulative effects of the impacts, and the risks it presents to you. I don't need to step into the M25 to know that getting hit by a car'll hurt, I can guess that from my own knowledge.


If there's a person A who's done it for years, and then there's a person B who's never had any experience in it and claims A is wrong who do you think I should be listening to?

The one who can still hold a pen without difficulty?

[Adam]

This is really going nowhere.

[Cain]

Gee, and mine seem to be intact. Must be a miracle I guess.

Yeah, a miracle ;)

I wasn't comparing bones to diamond, I was trying to explain the difference between hard and brittle. As you condition bones they become harder, and more brittle.

The theory of the diamond does'nt apply to the bones I'm afraid

Actually I know more than you might imagine.

Yeah, you know I have experinced it

I can guess that from my own knowledge.

You can guess, I have done it and know people who do it and still play the piano ;)

|Cain|

[goatnipples2002]

where do you guys train? how come no one said a thing about dit da jow? I know it by no other name. I made my own using western herbs. If you use it before and after a conditioning lesson then your joints won't take enough abuse to cause arthritis. the di da jow is some strong **** if you let it sit long enough (about a year). Mine has been sitting for about 2 years. I've used it ever since it sat for 6 mo. i used a store brand until the 6 mo. was up. You guys talk you just do what some one else says just because. I don't have a master or any of that. My teachers were the streets, prison and gangs. I'm not trying to brag (that stuff ain't anything to brag about anyways) just trying to tell you to do some research and you might not sound like a hand puppet.

This is MY very own recipe. (my 1st attempt)

Use 1 gallon glass jar

Mix herbs with 4 to 5 Qts. WINTERGREEN alcohol

1 container of ANALGESIC GEL (depending how cold you want it)

1/2 OZ. OF EACH
Marshmallow Root
Chamomile
Witch Hazel
St.Johns Wort
Rosemary
White Willow
Sarsaparilla Root
Goldenseal Root
Fenugreek
Nettle
Fennel Seeds
Cramp Bark
Blessed Thistle
Echinacea
Thyme
2 1/2 OZ. Celery Seeds
2 1/2 OZ. Dandelion Leaves
1 Ginger Root
4 1/2 OZ. Comfrey
1/2 bottle of Aspirin
1 OZ. Cayenne Pepper (depending how HOT you want it)
1/2 clove Garlic



change it if you need to

(i grow most of these herbs so I use more ALWAYS).

if you don'y know what an herb does look it up

[Knight_Errant]

Maybe because it's completely unnecessary to any form of training?

[goatnipples2002]

STOP IT: Yoda