The uselessness of X-blocks

[Oldie]

In traditional martial arts schools, X-blocks are often taught to defend oneself against knive strikes, especially the over head strikes.

I questioned this one-step technique during my TKD training, but was told to follow the teaching and not question the technique.

To me, the X-block is useless for the opponent could easily slice my wrists open by pulling the knife blade back and down. The scenario becomes much clearer when practicing Combat Hapkido, where knife and gun defenses are often practiced.

I have junked the X-block as a means to defend myself against an overhead knife attack. But in that one-step TKD sparring move, the X-block does look very good.

Who wants to just look good when his life is at stake?

Oldie

[SoKKlab]

In traditional martial arts schools, X-blocks are often taught to defend oneself against knive strikes, especially the over head strikes.

I questioned this one-step technique during my TKD training, but was told to follow the teaching and not question the technique.

To me, the X-block is useless for the opponent could easily slice my wrists open by pulling the knife blade back and down. The scenario becomes much clearer when practicing Combat Hapkido, where knife and gun defenses are often practiced.

I have junked the X-block as a means to defend myself against an overhead knife attack. But in that one-step TKD sparring move, the X-block does look very good.

Who wants to just look good when his life is at stake?

Oldie

You're right, X-Blocks is useless and will get you killed or at least able to do a good impression of a Pin Cushion....

The difference between meaningful Self-Protection and Martial Arts training is sometimes vast.

[Jang Bong]

I understand exactly what you're saying, but (as I'm newish) I treat all of these techniques as options to be chosen from if we ever (heaven forbid :eek: ) need to use it.

It is in the mix with inside-to-outside block, outside-to-inside block, crescent kick, snap-kick to lower regions, and step backwards throwing wheelie-bin in the way of the attacker. :D

After saying that, if some joker is sitting on my legs and his mate aims a kick at my head, then a rising X-block that catches and holds the ankle could give a few possibilities...

[Kwajman]

Against a knife yes, against a low kick or being hit over the head, it can be useful. Tho I do find it a bit cumbersome. I'd like to hear from KC, Thomas or some of the other instructors.

[d33pthought]

I'd rather use a high block against an overhead knife and a low block against a low knife. The x-block is good if someone's gota club or bat, though. Yeah we did a one-step with an xblock too..seemed kinda awkward.

[Gyaku]

It depends on how you use the x-block and the manner of the attack. The positioning of the hands lends itself very well to following with an armlock, by simply pulling your opponant towards you. But this has to done very fluidly, almost as in one count. If its all very rigidly done or if your opponant is not very commited the technique won't work, as Oldie says, they'll just pull back and strike again.

It also helps if you apply it with a bit of tai sai baki.

Note though if you use the x-block on a low attack, there is the danger that the knife will deflect off your hands and into your thigh, so again,use at an angle.

Another note on x-block, you need to apply a bit of stick to his arm, once the block makes contact you need to maintain that contact as you grab and apply pull/ joint lock(nikyo works very well from low position) move forward if he pull knife away.

I've heard Lisa Silwa of the New York Guardian Angels argue that while knife attacks wil involve some non-commited cut and dash techniques, the attacker invariably goes for a committed attack. So x-block could play a role in a repertoire of knife defences.

[MiyamotoMusashi]

In my karate class we were taught to use the x-block for knife strikes too. But, we always used the block more as a way to gain a wrist lock. With a lot of practice we all got pretty fuid with it. Wouldn't be my first choice, but I don't think is completely useless.

[SoKKlab]

It depends on how you use the x-block and the manner of the attack. The positioning of the hands lends itself very well to following with an armlock, by simply pulling your opponant towards you. But this has to done very fluidly, almost as in one count. I
I see. And How many times have you used this technique in real life situations where someone is trying to kill you, in order to be able to make such a Confident statement?....

[Gyaku]

I have indeed. But only once! I grew up in South Africa which is an extremely violent country - murder rate several times higher than the USA even. I used the block to pull the bastard (sorry about the wording, but thats how I feel about the guy) towards me, this basically comprimised his balance, leaning him over, nikyo followed - Heian Godan, Gankaku, Kusanku have similar applications. I put pressure until I felt his wrist give, I then ran like hell.

I might state though that in the process he did manage to to make a small puncture wound on my outer thigh (very small, almost no bleeding). I don't know how he did it. I only noticed it about 30mins later.

The manner of attack is quite different in South Africa however. If you are mugged you will almost certainly be stabbed and killed, you know you don't have the option to talk your way out of it. Which is why most MA's in SA even TA's are very practically minded.

[KenpoDavid]

I see. And How many times have you used this technique in real life situations where someone is trying to kill you, in order to be able to make such a Confident statement?....

Sokklab, How many times have you used it and it did NOT work? You seem just as confident in your position :P

[KickChick]

Against a knife yes, against a low kick or being hit over the head, it can be useful. Tho I do find it a bit cumbersome. I'd like to hear from KC, Thomas or some of the other instructors.


There have been instances when I've used an X block to block a kick when sparring that I couldn't block with just a single arm (big tough manly man I sparred ;) ) and then followed through with a backfist punch ... nice & smooth it was :D

In the form that I am now doing Yoo Sin .... there is the movement with a downward pressing block with an x -fist (#20) application being to block a groin attack to a rising block with an X-knife hand (#21) to block an overhead strike.

We also perform the x-block application also as a way to gain a wrist lock as MiyamotoMusashi says he does also.... whether it be to defend against a knife or being hit with an object overhead.

There are a number of techniques (found in patterns) that you may question the usefulness of in terms of self defense.. but look at my sig!

[Matt_Bernius]

My view on x-blocks:

I will use them to the side to cushion a round house kick. That's about it.

X blocking a knife is a bad idea. It will only work against the most untrained of attackers. The X block in a case like this dates back to the use of a sword where the defender would be moving into an extremely committed stike. A knife lacks the weapon weight of a sword and the blade is functioning in a different manner.

If the blade is down (ice pick) it can be intentionally or unitentionally used to trap the hands as the knife wielder retacts. Filipino systems are nasty enough to use the knife for a temporary grab (similiar to a lap) to clear the path and then continuing the stab.

This is one of those cases where a Ju Jitsu techinque has been unquestioningly propogated and applied in situations it was not designed for.

As for using it to defend against a downward head stike, I personally wouldn't. The reason is I never assume that an attacker isn't unarmed. I've heard way to many first hand accounts of someone defending against what they thought was an open hand only to discover that they're bleeding or worse from a slash or thrust of a knife.

- Matt

[SoKKlab]

Sokklab, How many times have you used it and it did NOT work? You seem just as confident in your position :P Against a Blade in a real situation never, I wouldn't even attempt it.

I don't need to prove that it's awful, I can suss that out for myself without having to take unnecessary risks...

But props to Gyaku if he's made what I consider to be terrible technique work in a real situation....

The times when people have tried to introduce me to something sharp I have used 'Grab Drag Into Wall Blocks Face Number 1' and '4x4 reshapes Nose and Cheek Bones part Deux'...I've also used 'Redirect Bottle into Genital Area with Bonus Thumb in Eye' (always popular..)

I'd forgotten that Karate, TKD, Kempo etc use it against kicks and stuff. Rather you than me, that's all I can say to that one...Truly Awful...

[Scarlet Mist]

I hardly use X - blocks in sparring. I don't like the idea of blocking with two hands and leaving the remainder of your body open. Unless of course an axe kick is coming. As for knife defences, early in my training an instructor illustrated how silly it was to use an X - block against a knive ... if your assailant pulled his hand down, he'd slash your hand open. But it could work, I guess. I don' think it's the best technique to use, however.

[KickChick]

My bad ... this is the Hapkido forum. But TKD also teaches the x block (sangsu makgi) ... but looking over many Hapkido school curriculums on the net, it does seem that they do spend quite a bit of time on this specific block as it applies to knife defense.

There is a book written by Kwang Sik Myung entitled "Hapkido Weapons The Knife" (http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/hapkidoweaponstheknifekwangsik1.html) illustrating defense against knife attacks using various techniques including the x block.


Now I read that an important part of Hapkido's self-defense curriculum involves preparing yourself to defend against a knife attack ....

For instance if an opponent thrusts his knife toward your stomach, you should simultaneously shift your hips backward into a cat stance and shove his knife hand downward with an X-block. Then you turn your hands so you can grasp his wrist. By using your arms to circle his knife hand counter-clockwise, you can control it and redirect the blade away from your body. Twisting it further puts him on his back on the ground.

Now the question is .... to protect yourself against basic stabs and slashes is this better than knowing nothing at all??? :eek:

[UKscrapper]

I think the x-block is not practical for most knife defense situations. Reason being that your have commited both hands to block and control the attacking arm.
If you were to miss with this block and fail to capture the attacking arm you would be totally vulnerable to a second, third ..etc stab from your attacker. Now I have used x-blocks to demonstrate self defense techniques but I have to say it is very difficult to capture someone's wrist using an x-block especially if they attack in a completely random fashion. I personally would not use an x-block in most circumstances.

[Matt_Bernius]

Now the question is .... to protect yourself against basic stabs and slashes is this better than knowing nothing at all??? :eek:Ooff... this is a tough arguement. Begrudginly yes, it is better than nothing. But is that what a system should be striving for?

There are equally simple defenses that can be found in various Kali systems or things like S.T.A.B. that are far less dangerous and have been better researched and tested. For example I have a big problem with the idea of reacting to a stab by dropping back on the path of the attack into a cat stance. I think it's a fundimentally flawed technique that would not work for the average person under the heavy forward pressure of a real knife attack.

The fundimentals of knife defense should always stress getting out of the path of the weapon first and foremost. Then intercepting the weapon, establishing a check or control, and then beginning to inflict pain.

I just see this as a situation where a system is teaching a technique for the sake of maintaining the technique not because it is the optimal form of self defense. It's fine to do things like that for preservation of the art. But it shouldn't be claimed that it's a good self defense option.

- Matt

[Gyaku]

Let me just clear up a couple of things. I don't believe that an x-block will deal with ALL knife techniques, but it can be effective against high commitment techniques**. Just like one block won't work against all punches or kicks. You need to fit the tool to the job.

Second you need to be able to use the x-block properly, to honest I think few people can do so or even know how to.
Most people get taught to deliver the x-block without saibaki, deliver the technique with a lot of tension and power, or they deliver the block directly upwards. All are suicidal options.

The x-block is meant to facilitate a grab by one of the hands in conjunction with sabaki. One deflects, the other grabs at the same time. What you do after you grab is up to you, punch, lock whatever you're best postioned for. It's a very light and fast technique. Not rigid and robotic.

The times when people have tried to introduce me to something sharp I have used 'Grab Drag Into Wall Blocks Face Number 1' and '4x4 reshapes Nose and Cheek Bones SokKlab

Sokklab, thats exactly the kind of technique th ex-block is meant to facilitate! If someone decides to stick a knife into you, your best chance of survival is to to get out the way, deflect and grab the arm, all of which an x-block will help you to do - if done properly, not in a McDojo style!

**Contrary to popular opinion high commitment techniques are very common. I've seen even skilled knifers do this, particularly when their opponant keeps out of distance. A friend of mine who used to work as a policeman in South Africa, has seen many knife fights with people intend on killing each other. The guys don't get fancy, they're high on adrenaline (all that tunnel vision, lack of gross motor function etc applies to the attacker as well)- they feint and then commit almost everytime. Of course this might just apply to South African gangsters (locally called Tsotsi's).

[Jointlock]

I am very weary of the application of an X-Block.

We do not use the x-block for knife defenses. When we do knife defenses it's usually against a slash or stab to the stomach, legs or wrists (wear the big veins are or the guts can fall out). Overhead stabs are not often used by experienced knife fighters (serial killers stabing you when you're in the shower is another story).

The block or trap that we use for knife defenses is to push downward with both hands as you move your lower body away. You make a wedge with the thumb and forefinger of each hand and put one hand on top of the other. This provides an automatic opportunity to grab and plus you keep the knife at arm length. When you do an x-block you actually let the knife get at least 6 inches closer to your body. Even then, your arms are still crossed. If you needed to block a punch from the other hand you'd be screwed.

How the heck do you do an X-block against a roundhouse? You catch a roundhouse at the wrists? Sounds dangerous.

In my oppinion X-Block = Bad

[SoKKlab]

My bad ... this is the Hapkido forum. But TKD also teaches the x block (sangsu makgi) ... but looking over many Hapkido school curriculums on the net, it does seem that they do spend quite a bit of time on this specific block as it applies to knife defense.

There is a book written by Kwang Sik Myung entitled "Hapkido Weapons The Knife" (http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/hapkidoweaponstheknifekwangsik1.html) illustrating defense against knife attacks using various techniques including the x block.

Now I read that an important part of Hapkido's self-defense curriculum involves preparing yourself to defend against a knife attack ....

For instance if an opponent thrusts his knife toward your stomach, you should simultaneously shift your hips backward into a cat stance and shove his knife hand downward with an X-block. Then you turn your hands so you can grasp his wrist. By using your arms to circle his knife hand counter-clockwise, you can control it and redirect the blade away from your body. Twisting it further puts him on his back on the ground.

Tis like the bog standard Ju Jitsu technique, except in that one there's no cat Stance, you commit to a strong STOP, by X-Blocking the attempted thrust near it's point of origin. It's an optimistic technique (how I view most anti-knife work), but at least it attacks the attack, as for the continuing wrist lock afterwards....

We discussed most of the common Ju Jitsu/ Hapkido etc Techniques on the 'Knife Defences in Ju Jitsu' thread...


Now the question is .... to protect yourself against basic stabs and slashes is this better than knowing nothing at all??? :eek: As alot of Anti-Blade techniques in alot of Martial Arts will get you killed anyway...The answer is find the good stuff and forget about the nonsense.

Of course if you are getting told that what you are practicising is Realistic Self-Defence and you choose to accept that without questioning the validity of the statement...

[Gyaku]

There are equally simple defenses that can be found in various Kali systems or things like S.T.A.B. that are far less dangerous and have been better researched and tested MAtt

Actually these techniques have been very well researched. The JKA's Stan Smidt (8th Dan) has done an enormous amount of research into knife fighting, linking up with top knife fighters, knifer organisations like AMOK, police, special forces etc. As a point of interest AMOK have designated South Africa as a technical research chapter because of the high incidence of knife (and gun) attacks.

While I have tremendous respect for PMA's (I've met amazingly skilled fighters) but South Africa has a far greater knife carrying culture, there is a significantly greater number of people killed there by a knife than anywhere else in the world. Ask any South African and they will know somebody (or themselves) that have been attacked by the knife.

Therefore if you wanted to do serious research into knife fighting, wing yourself to SA. A visit to an emergency ward on a weekend will give you a real idea as to the results of knife fights. I have, it's ugly. But seeing these injuries is very useful, do you know what the most common injuries are in knife fight? Because if you don't you don't know what to avoid. But, please do yourself a favour, the wine route is great, the crime is bad but the wine is good ;)

[Smee]

Here's an alternative to the traditional "X-block" application for you:-

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan5.htm

Also, does it always have to be a block? How about a cross choke if you have the guys lapels? It may look like a block but might not always have been intended that way.

Paul

[SoKKlab]

Therefore if you wanted to do serious research into knife fighting, wing yourself to SA. A visit to an emergency ward on a weekend will give you a real idea as to the results of knife fights. I have, it's ugly. But seeing these injuries is very useful, do you know what the most common injuries are in knife fight? Because if you don't you don't know what to avoid.
I don't need to goto South Africa. I can see this crap on my street, daily...

All this summer so far, gangs have been sticking, kicking, bashing and hacking the crud out of each other around here, including a huge melee at the Camden Anti-Gang Awards, organised by the Local Borough council to commemorate the Ceasefire between the local Gangs... (Oh the Irony)...

Between them and the Local Ravenous Crackheads who insist on stabbing each other or anybody else who gets too close whilst I'm on my way to work of a Morning, it's a right old knees up...

Oh and I worked for a Time as a Porter in a hospital, back home in Wales and it wasn't just the weekends that were stab city.

Still definitely NOT Convinced one iota about X-Blocks against knives mind...

[Kwan Jang]

I see value in a downward x-block to the quadricep to intercept a forward knee strike. Other than that, I will use what many interpret as a "block" in traditional forms for the purpose for which it is effective: as a wrist release (using a rub point) that feeds nicely into a joint manipulation. After over two decades of training in the FMA's, plus being a tactical trainer, it goes against my grain to expose my bloodlines to a blade.

IMO (and it just is that, for what it's worth), many instructors have lost the intent of many traditional techniques and try to find an explanation of them. They don't want their students to know that they lack the knowledge of the practical application of some moves from the forms that have been handed down. So, they come up with flawed versions from their "armchair expertise" and often criticize any student impudent enough to question their "mastery". It can even get worst when these interpretations are passed down through a few generations of instructors to students. It becomes almost a heresy to question what your grandmaster's instructor taught him/her, even if it is lame to anyone who has any real experience.

I believe this is how you can take a valid, effective technique and nearly ruin it. Using the example of the "x-block", the same hand position is the end point of the wrist release and in several traditional forms, it is followed up by various joint manipulations. Using this interpretation, it's functional and makes perfect sense and I have no trouble applying it this way. Using it the way many of you are talking about from different TKD and Hapkido cirriculums (don't take this as style bashing, I have a 5th dan in both TKD and Hapkido) would be suicide against a skilled escrimador or even an experienced SEAL.

[cybermonk]

I dont do hapkido but as for the question whether the X block is useless against a knife strike, yes, it is. Although the reason behind it(I think) is a bit more general than what has been explained in this thread. Everytime a trained person is wielding his weapon of choice against you while you are unarmed you are at a disadvantage. However, this advantage is not absolute, if your unarmed skill is much better than his weapon skill you might be able to defeat him succesfully.

What I am trying to say is that there is not technique by which you simply level the playing field against someone using a weapon, chances are that if the person who is attacking you with such weapon is trained in its use they probably have been exposed to most of what you will attempt and ways on how to counter it.

[Guy Mendiola]

The useless block in my opinion is the down block, They say it's for blocking a low roundhouse which will not necessiraly help, when you got for the down block you might not know what kind of roundhouse the practitioner is going to throw...Im saying the kick can break or hurt your wrists.

[Matt_Bernius]

IMO (and it just is that, for what it's worth), many instructors have lost the intent of many traditional techniques and try to find an explanation of them. They don't want their students to know that they lack the knowledge of the practical application of some moves from the forms that have been handed down. So, they come up with flawed versions from their "armchair expertise" and often criticize any student impudent enough to question their "mastery". It can even get worst when these interpretations are passed down through a few generations of instructors to students. It becomes almost a heresy to question what your grandmaster's instructor taught him/her, even if it is lame to anyone who has any real experience.

I believe this is how you can take a valid, effective technique and nearly ruin it. [edit] Using it the way many of you are talking about from different TKD and Hapkido cirriculums (don't take this as style bashing, I have a 5th dan in both TKD and Hapkido) would be suicide against a skilled escrimador or even an experienced SEAL.
Kwan, Thanks for your thoughts. That is exactly what I think. It's a great example of what happens when people stop going out and testing their stuff against resisting opponents outside of their art. Great post.

- Matt

[Knight_Errant]

The useless block in my opinion is the down block, They say it's for blocking a low roundhouse which will not necessiraly help, when you got for the down block you might not know what kind of roundhouse the practitioner is going to throw...Im saying the kick can break or hurt your wrists.

nah, down block to mae geri definetly works. You're being thick.

I've only ever used X-blocks to intercept kicks whilst opponent is chambering. It does seem to work well and is listed in best karate (not that that means much...)

[Thomas]

Pretty neat topic and I'm glad to see "non-Hapkidoists" joining in... I hope the Hapkido never gets a reputation for only wanting to hear from "Hapkido stylists" ... good advice from any style is desired.

In TKD, I learned the "x-block" and used it some. I find it works nicely against a knee strike or front kick, especially in cases where you can't get completetly out of the way and need to stop/absorb some of the power... and two crossed forearms can do this.

In Hapkido, we (personally) have used the "x-block" occasionally in an open-handed defence to set up for various locks... but we highly discourage using it against a knife attack.

- I would never use it against a slash or horizontal cut (and I don't think that has been recommended here anyway). We tend to dodge the first sweep and then jam them up (arm agaisnt body) with quick nasty strikes.

- Defending against a rising thrust or a descending attack (ice pick style) is not a good idea because even if you stop it, all the attacker has to do is move the blade side to side to cut into your arteries/veins in that area. In fact, when we train for attacking with the knife, that's what we do.

-For me the keys to defending against the thrust is body movement (back - and especially making sure that your vitals are moving away from it), trapping the hand and wrist to control the blade and very quickly putting him down (either driving the blade into him or hurting him seriously)

-Try out your knife defences against an opponent with a red marker and see how well they work... see if the injuries you take are life-threatening or not (rule #1 = if knives are involved, you'll most likely get cut.)

(I really agree with the posts by Jointlock and Kwan Jang... that fits more of my personal philosphy)

[American HKD]

Greeting,

X blocks are very effective blocks, If you actually know how to use it!

The idea in HKD is to use it then immediatly transition to a strike, lock, or throw.

In Hapkido we have a few versions, one with closed fists as beginers are shown and the more advanced catch type X which is very fast & practical for strikes, kicks, and knife defense.

The last type is to catch and pull the attacker off balance a great and effective tech. once to have your basics and timing down. This tech can bring the attacker to the ground in a flash.

Of course it must be used at the right time & place.

[blessed_samurai]

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong but it seems to me that some of you guys are doing your X block where you actually perform the block in a hard manner and pause for a moment, as if you are actually fighting for control. The x-block I learned was never done in a static position but happened very fast and kept in a continuous motion.

I also keep reading about what technique you would select in the middle of this knife attack. I think the attack lends itself to the technique or perhaps it's the other way around. My thoughts are pretty much in the heat of the moment our body takes over and a lot that happens is instinct, which is sometimes formed from repetition. The previous has been my experience, that and often as self defense scenarios are played in my mind, it becomes a totally different matter when a physical confrontation is really happening. I have used the x-block successfully before. Did I mean to? No, my body simply reacted to the attack. Would it work everytime? No, but it saved my life once and therefore I cannot dismiss the x-block as an entirely useless move against a knife attack.

I will give complete credit to the theory that for each attack there is a preferred counter attack or defense. I also firmly believe that nothing is truly certain when weapons are involved.

Off topic slightly, this kinda reminds me of the argument of grab the slide of the gun.

[BSR]

I think the title of this thread should say, 'The uselessness of X-blocks in defending knife attacks.'

So far every x-block I've learned at my school has been in order to defend against kicks (side kicks and center toe kicks). In that arena they're quite effective. I haven't learned knife defense yet, but I've seen the higher level belts do them, and I don't think a single one of the techniques involves an x-block.

[Sandy]

I've heard Lisa Silwa of the New York Guardian Angels argue that while knife attacks wil involve some non-commited cut and dash techniques, the attacker invariably goes for a committed attack. So x-block could play a role in a repertoire of knife defences.

Lisa would probably know, not only from her own experience, but she'd have a good overview of the experiences gained by the Guardian Angels as a whole. In my own limited experience of facing weapons, the attackers certainly went for the committed attack.

When I served in the London Chapter, my Guardian Angels training involved a lot of the 'red marker pen' work that Thomas mentioned, but no X-blocks.

[Knight_Errant]

so what about wedge blocks? what, in your opinion, is their practical application? it's always puzzled me '~'

[Saifa]

i gotta agree with gyaku and blessed samurai. i got together with a few mates yesterday to try out using the x-block in the way they suggested, that is in a light, soft way.

we used markers as knives. we really went at each other. there were about a quarter the normal number of 'wounds'. and no real kill shots! and one of my partners has been working with knives for years. where he got through my normal techniques, this really stumped him - most of the time anyway!

somethings nobody has mentioned before is that the xblock helps you cover a much wider area, you can even angle the block and cover slashing techniques, didn't think that would work, but it just came naturally.

i see lots of critics on the thread, you should just have a go and see what i mean. it works dude!!!!

[cybermonk]

Against a person who hasnt used knifes for years, yes, against a trained knife fighter I wouldnt recommend it.

[Matt_Bernius]

On the issue of committed vs uncommitted attacks, it is true that a knife attack will typically begin with slashes and move to a committed thrust. However, the idea of waiting for the committed attack scares me. The longer the knife is out the higher the chances of getting stuck or slashed in a bad way. The second part is that with a committed attack how long will you have forward energy on it? That's my biggest issues with the X block. Provided the person doesn't retract the blade or pull back their hand the block works fine. However, human nature is to pull back when a limb becomes entwined. And that's were we all have concerns about the x-block.

Kwan really layed out the issues with it. So it's not worth going back over them.

I do think X blocks do have a place in training and a self defense catalog. However, I just don't like the idea of them being associated with knife defense. I think that for 12 inch and smaller knives, a lot of arts should re-examine what they are teaching.

- Matt

[Gyaku]

Matt:

I wouldn't wait for a commited thrust either - I'd probably wet my pants by then ;)

I think you need to deal with what is in front of you. This isn't a formula, if he retracts, you can follow up with the tomiki version of an entangle lock or trap the hand, similar to the way WC'ers use a bong sau to lap sau(remember I never advocated using the x-block straight up or down, which is when the retracting action of your attacker is most likely to cut you). Just do what works best in that point in time.

On the plus size, a heavily commited technique is quite hard to retract, especially if you're not expecting to be grabbed. Which goes to the point I made earlier, don't grab for the sake of grabbing, apply it only when you know it'll work, so if you've made any half hearted attempts to grab earlier, you ruin the element of suprise.

The danger of not using a light and fast x-block is that you don't have the strength to deflect the attack, which might be a problem for a smaller person. If you've got a bit of muscle this won't apply to you though. As Saifa mentioned, the block also gives you a little lee-way if you're not 100% on target. Try it out a bit when you're next in class. Use it the way I've suggested (DON'T use the hard rigid manner that is usually taught). You might need to prectise it a bit to work (like any new technique), but I'm confident you'll see the advantages fairly quickly. I'd love to hear how you got on.

Cheers, and thanks for the reply, it was very interesting! Just out of interest, what is the Kali approach to deflection and grabbing a knife? I was always under the impression that it was quite common, if so how do they deal with the retracting hand? Hearsay only, I never trained in Kali directly.

[KickChick]

I think the title of this thread should say, 'The uselessness of X-blocks in defending knife attacks.'

Yes it has seem to shift over to that...

So besides executing the x block to block a kick ... what other ways can an X block be an effective defense?

Or is it just a an ineffective technique all round?

[Matt_Bernius]

Cheers, and thanks for the reply, it was very interesting! Just out of interest, what is the Kali approach to deflection and grabbing a knife? I was always under the impression that it was quite common, if so how do they deal with the retracting hand? Hearsay only, I never trained in Kali directly.I can only speak for Pekiti Tirsia circa five years ago (there have been changes, though I'd expect the ground rules remain the same). The battlefield side of Kali/Escima/Arnis/You Name it keeps the practitioner in a reality based mindset where getting into a wrestling match with a weapon is doubly dangerous because you can accidently gut yourself and you can only pay attention to a single person. So they act to decisivly end the conflict with a direct attack on the attacker (preferably with another weapons).

So the steps of a Filipino defense could best be classifed by:

1. Intercept and "pass the weapon" to the outside if possible.
2. Move inside/past the range of the weapon
3. Check and control (not necessarily by grabbing)
4. Punish the central core of the body

While many Filipino systems train and play with disarms/stips, they typically will not use them in combat. These are more reaction development tools. They also very rarely directly grab weapons or weapon hands. Regardless of if the attack is coming off a slash or a thrust, the goal is to intercept and direct it. The lack to grabbing gets back to the human reaction to withdraw the grabbed hand.

The next step is to move inside of and behind the weapon. The move is typically made to the outside to ensure that the second weapon hand does not come into play.

From there the check is engaged. This could be a grab (though often unlikely), a trap, or a body check that prevents the weapons from immediately reentering the fray.

From there it's punish, punish, punish. If the knife is dropped or disarmed it's as a byproduct of striking or guiding it into the attacker's body (a common answer to the overhand/icepick attack is to help guide it into the attacker's thigh).

Now in the case of a retraction, they will strike to extend the arm/halt retraction.

I think you need to deal with what is in front of you. This isn't a formula, if he retracts, you can follow up with the tomiki version of an entangle lock or trap the hand, similar to the way WC'ers use a bong sau to lap sau(remember I never advocated using the x-block straight up or down, which is when the retracting action of your attacker is most likely to cut you). Just do what works best in that point in time.

On the plus size, a heavily commited technique is quite hard to retract, especially if you're not expecting to be grabbed. Which goes to the point I made earlier, don't grab for the sake of grabbing, apply it only when you know it'll work, so if you've made any half hearted attempts to grab earlier, you ruin the element of suprise.

I just get really neverous about the idea of any type of grabbling/counter pull action against a knife. Guiding definitely can work. But any form of suspending or counter pulling, where the attacker hasn't been softened up, seems in danger of getting into a grappling match with the weapon. Or worse pulling against a counter retraction and getting cut as the weapon passes by.

- Matt

[Gyaku]

I can see this crap on my street, daily... SoKklab

Sure....

Ok, so Camden has a few dodgy characters that get up to no good once in a while, me thinks you're exaggerating just a tad, for two reasons...

1. I've spent many a night in Camden and I've never seen anything really serious. I'm sure things do happen, but not all the time! - would waggamama open in a criminal hotbed - no way. Hillbrow has had it's businesses driven out by crime, day and night!

2. Check out the national statistic website, it backs up my experiences. The incidence of serious crime is way below places like Soweto or Hillbrow in Jo'burg in South Africa.

Camden Town is hardly awash with crime!

Compared to your experiences it might be dodgy but in the bigger picture the evidence points in another direction...

[kenpoguy]

In the kenpo system X-blocks are taught but i think that they are mainly useless. Especially when dealing with weapons. One of the purple belt techinques taught in American Kenpo, deals with blocking an overhand club attack.(one of the most pointless techiniques on all belt list) You step low soft bow and block the attack with an xblock. Chances are that, not only would both of yoru arms be smashed, but the club would still come down on your head and it would end up being lights out for you :D Although the follow up on that technique was actually practical for the situation. Involved elbowing the vertebrate and brainstem after you had him bent over.(was a takedown involved)

[SoKKlab]

Sure....

Ok, so Camden has a few dodgy characters that get up to no good once in a while, me thinks you're exaggerating just a tad, for two reasons...

1. I've spent many a night in Camden and I've never seen anything really serious. I'm sure things do happen, but not all the time! - would waggamama open in a criminal hotbed - no way. Hillbrow has had it's businesses driven out by crime, day and night!

2. Check out the national statistic website, it backs up my experiences. The incidence of serious crime is way below places like Soweto or Hillbrow in Jo'burg in South Africa.

Camden Town is hardly awash with crime!

Compared to your experiences it might be dodgy but in the bigger picture the evidence points in another direction...

I live in Kings Cross, not Camden Town....it's just in the Borough of Camden. Come spend a few nights here, it'll be like a regular home from home...

Example, my parents stayed in Cape Town SA for three months, they didn't hear of or see any trouble. Does that mean that Cape Town has no Crime or Violence (Answer No)...Durban and Jo'Burg on the other hand...

Besides Mate, do you live in Soweto?? Chances are you live in a nice gated housing development somewhere and Soweto residents clean your pool....

And Finally. It's not a Competition, honest, you don't have to try to play the old 'it's more violent here, therefore you know nothing' card in order to try to prove that you've used a technique 'on da street' that most people consider to be extremely dodgy.

I'll take your word for it, regardless of how you are living and/ or where. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, whether you live in SA or Finland, doesn't matter to me.

Just because South Africa is a statistically more violent country than most, doesn't mean to say that violence elsewhere is any less, er, violent when it happens, just statistically less likely to happen in some places compared to others.

You can be stabbed or shot in Rural Pennsylvania, probably less likely than Jo'burg, but still possible.

Also, you seem to have a very 'Merry Olde England' view of London etc. London and most cities in the British Isles are more violent than most cities in the USA, with the exception of Detroit, St Louis and I live in one of the worst areas of London.

You see??

Back to the thread. X-Blocks vs Knives suicidal.

[Kosh]

If they can cut you after the block is done, why cant you move as soon as the block is done?

You can slide one arm over and move inside the oponent...

[Gyaku]

Matt: Cheers for the Kali info, very interesting as always!

SokKlab: Yup, you're right, I probably got a bit carried so I hope my apology is accepted - it's just that it's a subject I take a bit personaly - probably too personaly!

So here is me being more rational!

Actually the incidence of crime is very important. Effectivily it means a greater number of people in the population have direct, first hand experience of crime. It also means that a greater number of self defence techniques will be tested under real circumstances. The point I'm trying to make is that the more extensively a technique has been tested the more valid will be its evaluation. While I agree that any attack is unpleasant, when you're talking about scientific evaluation, then quantity is very important. I know of several organisations that have taken up the x-block (angled, soft version that is!). They have done so only after some careful study.

This doesn't just apply to defending against the knife but also to medical information to treat knife and gunshot wounds. South African doctors are at the forefront of this - and regurlaly provide training to the NHS, including those in London. The same can be said of AMOK, they too have taken the time to learn from the SA experience.

The next time you're in class, play around with the soft angled (ie keep on the outside plane) x-block and see what happens, see how easy it is to avoid being cut by the retracting arm. As I said to Matt I'd love to hear how it turned out, good or bad. I'm always trying to evaluate my technique.

Just out of interest, I spend a large part of the year in London. And yes Kings X is one of the few places in London I've felt more than a bit nervous! Why they put the ticket booths for the tube virtually on the street is beyond me. I'd love to know how many people have been mugged there.

[SoKKlab]

This doesn't just apply to defending against the knife but also to medical information to treat knife and gunshot wounds. South African doctors are at the forefront of this - and regurlaly provide training to the NHS, including those in London. The same can be said of AMOK, they too have taken the time to learn from the SA experience.

The next time you're in class, play around with the soft angled (ie keep on the outside plane) x-block and see what happens, see how easy it is to avoid being cut by the retracting arm. As I said to Matt I'd love to hear how it turned out, good or bad. I'm always trying to evaluate my technique.

Just out of interest, I spend a large part of the year in London. And yes Kings X is one of the few places in London I've felt more than a bit nervous! Why they put the ticket booths for the tube virtually on the street is beyond me. I'd love to know how many people have been mugged there.
Thanks Mate,
I'd very much would like to see any research links and the like you have about the AMOK studies and any SA Medical stuff also, if you know of where to get it, Links etc.

In the name of Research I'll try it out..I'm sure I've done a version of this in my Ju Jitsu class anyway, i'll have to recap.

Kings Cross is a bit lary. A few years ago they stopped publishing the figures for Muggings within the area, as even the Official Figures started to make everybody look Really Bad and that things were out of control. With the Introduction of Street Wardens to back up the Police, Muggings have gone down but Drug and Drug-related crime has gone back up and we've lately had an influx of swarms of Crack heads, who whereas before were just desperate, in smaller groups and more of a danger to themselves, now are just dangerous, particularly when armed. We've also had a few Drive By Bombings (Homemade) and the occassional shooting for variety. And I live in the Quiet bit. C'est La Vie...

[Kosh]

ok, i reiterate my point.

if they can cut you after the xblock...why cant you move after the xblock? Is this not simple enough?

Better to get your hand cut than get stabbed in the head.
Its also a natural reflex to put your hands up in such an instance.

[Matt_Bernius]

if they can cut you after the xblock...why cant you move after the xblock? Is this not simple enough?

Better to get your hand cut than get stabbed in the head.
Its also a natural reflex to put your hands up in such an instance.Taking the second thing first, while something is in almost every case better than nothing, it's better to move off the line of the attack than stand in place and be forced to put a hand up to prevent one from being stabbed in the head. So the first thing that should be taught is "Get out of the damn way of the weapon. When the train is coming at you, get off the track."

On the first point, we're dealing with reactions here. You can move after executing the xblock. However, you've just tensed your muscles to prevent said knife from going into your skull. That means that you need to shift mode and relax in order to begin the relatively fine motor skill of beginning a lock or disarm. And though that may be only fractions of a second, it takes time. The person with the knife is going through the same reaction "hey my path has been interrupted, someone's grabbing my hand, let me pull it back." So what the timing thing comes down to is who's reactions kick in first.

But regardless of who moves first. the problem is the attacker still has a knife that can cut both on attack and retraction. The issue most of us have with the x-block is that a resisting opponent can accicently cut the defender while the defender executes a move. That move also exposes the defender's inner wrists. The x-block against bladed weapons allows less margin of error than other techniques.

So yes, the x-block can work (Heck a spinning hook kick to the head can work in the right situation as well). But it's not the safest or most efficient method for dealing with an overhead icepick knife attack.

- Matt

[Kosh]

Moving out of the way is definately better...as it always is. But it isnt always possible.

If you include the after movement in training the xblock, you will do it faster. Im not talking about a lock or anything. Our respence to this move is an xblock following by a strike with the back of the fist to the face (the other arm moves their knife arm away). You could also grab the back of their head / neck and knee them in the chest. but the most important thing is that you have moved 'inside' their body / defences.

Like i said ... it should be trained as a natural follow up.

[Matt_Bernius]

Ok. Last time, seriously, because we've started to aruge around this issue and no one is budging. Here goes the view of most of us here who have trained with knives:

Against a knife attack (assuming a stab of some sort) the x-block is not either the easiest or safest method of defense. It can work, but is risky and can be countered by an untrained resisting opponent.

Either way, we question why it is often taught by certain arts as a primary method of knife defense when there are better methods available. I suggested that it was orignially used for defending against a much heaver and more commited downward sword attack. Kwan Jang presented a strong arguement that this application is a misinterpretation of movement. Either way, we get to the question of why is it still in there.

I (Matt speaking for himself) will go further to suggest that it's a case where arts are maintaining a move for cultural/historical purposes (at best, or lack of experience at worst), not expressly for it's efficency in combat/defense. If that is the case it should be taught with such a disclaimer. I also hope that other, more tactical methods of knife defense are being taught along with it.

Anyway, that's my/our stance. We can argue does it work/doesn't it work stuff until we're blue in the face.

- Matt

[Thomas]

Good post, Matt... I completely agree.

As I wrote before, we used to train the "x-block" for use agaisnt a knife attack. As our intstructor got deeper into the knife defence curriculum in Combat Hapkido, we realized that there were better ways to deal with knife attacks than the "x-block". As Kosh (I belive) said, it can work, but there are risks .... and other ways to deal with it, especially in terms of movement. Commiting to an "x-block" can commit you to a relatively static position, and not one where I fear for the follow up attack, whether it is the other hand, a kick, or the knife being sawed backwards or forward.

[Gyaku]

I think this has been a really thought provoking thread, anyway here is my final 2 cents...

I think we can all agree on the following:

1. An x-block CAN stop a knife

2. BUT - it carries a significant risk of injury if the knife is retracted

3. It is far more important keep off the line of attack

4. Situations do exist where it is not possible to keep off the line of attack (confined space etc)

5. In #4 the only way to defend would be to directly block the attack

Ok now the contentious bit..but some of you will agree

A. Some knife attacks, especially high commitment techniques are significantly more powerful
B. High commitment techniques are significantlly harder to retract (more energy is involved etc)
C. Higher power techiques need to be blocked in a more powerful (or with a structure that can deal with high power) fashion

The really contentious part..

The best way you're stop a highly committed knife attack in a confined area is the x-block. In this situation:

The speed of retraction is significantly reduced, providing greater opportunities for counters and the risk of being cut through retraction reduction.

The x-block provides a sound structure to deal with a high energy attack.

Phew, well thats it I'm through, good thread though, lots of good ideas - you guys made me think.

One question though... How do other systems deal with the high commitment/confined area scenario?

[Kosh]

Someone said xblock to stop stabbing...in what context are we talking about xblocks?

We use them for a couple of possible situations.

The classic over the had 'phsyco' stabbing motion. but as mentioned its better to move to the side, the stab can be redirected into their own leg. In the respect its easy to counter...it just happens to be terrorfying.

As for the under-arm stabbing motion, like an under arm swing. When we practice, we dont use full force to stab because the block hurts *alot*. In this instance, i think the block is designed as a strike in itself, used when their arm is at full speed.

[AussieNath]

How many people would really attack you with an overhead stab with a knife? If they know how to handle a knife, you will not see this. If you do see it, you know they don't know what they are doing and the X block will work fine. In fact if you block, step through, turning over their knife holding hand in a lock, you can easily redirect the blade into their body.

Anyway, by using an X block you can easily gain control of the weapon. If someone comes at me like this, I don't give a f**k if I get cut when I gain control of the blade. Small price to pay for staying alive.

Besides, you can tell who is competent in knife, just by how they hold the blade. The average punk who pulls a knife doesn't know how to use it.

[cybermonk]

Problem is-If they cut the part of the wrist you expose with the x-block you are going to have a hard time staying alive.

[Matt_Bernius]

Besides, you can tell who is competent in knife, just by how they hold the blade. The average punk who pulls a knife doesn't know how to use it.I never make assumptions. There are Filipino styles that often employ the pakal (icepick grip) with smaller knives as it reenforces stabbing. Perhaps they wouldn't make such a wide overhead strike, but the overhand pakal puncture stab is something experienced people would use.

- Matt