Push Ups

[Saz]

Does anyone have any tips for doing press ups? I'm really bad at them, and I can only manage to do about 25 in one go before I cave. We're expected to be able to do 50 in one go in the dojo, and for my grading, at least 35. So I'm coming up short for both.

Can anyone recommend any way I can get an increase in the number of push up's I can do, such as other exersize's etc? I do practice, but I can never seem to go above 25.

Osu

Sarah

[Chazz]

Im bad at them too. The way ive been getting better is to get a goal. Lets say 20. Keep doing them until i get to 20, go up a few and just keep doin it that way.

I also do different types of push ups to help my arms. Regular- hands in front of you, Turn you fingers in toward each other, then turn them out away from each other, and last on your fists.

[waya]

You can also try Plyometric Pushups, staying partially on your knees and pushing your hands off the ground a couple inches on every up. Do those in sets of 3 to 5 at first. Mostly I would say just keep doing them.... The more you do the more you will be able to do in a set.

Rob

[Freeform]

First of all is your posture correct. I'm not about to tell you how (cause that would take ages) but ask your sensei or a senior to check that your postures correct to start with.

Before breakfast in the morning you should try to do 3 sets of 20 press ups, 3 sets of 20 sit ups, and 3 sets of squats just to start off. Do this every morning for a couple of weeks and you should find it easier, then add another 5 reps to each set. By the time you get up to sets of 50 you should be looking to add more exercises to your routine.

Good Luck

[Silver_no2]

When you have done as many proper press ups as you possibly can, put your knees down and do as many more as you can. While they won't be of as much benefit as doing full press ups it will help. Freeform is right, doing press ups on a daily basis will make it easier for you to do more. Guess I'd better take my own advice then!!! I'm worried about Freeform - there was no reference to maiming anybody in his last post. Somebody call an ambulance!!!

[waya]

LOL If you really want to do them well, enlist in the military.... You become and expert lol

[jdog_01]

Remember that quality is better than quantity. If you can only do 20 good pushups...thats ok. set small reasonable goals for improvement. It is better to improve from 20 to 25 good pushups...rather than to be able to do 50 low quality pushups.

Also...remember to give your muscle groups time to recover from the workout. You may not be able to initially do large quantities of pushups everyday in the beginning. If your muscle groups do not have time enough to recover and you do more pushups every day...you may actually see a decrease in your performance.

[Tseek Choi]

There is a "100 pushup Plan" available on this internet thingy, i'll go find it.

Also I'd recommend doing variable height pushes too.If you go right down then do say 10 at only half height it strengthens the tendons as well as the muscles.
Also variate the sets by doing triangle pushups,(index fingers touching, and thumbs touching) these really hurt, but will help to strenghen the smaller muscle groups too.

As jdog says quality first.
Many people think they can do say 50-60 pushups, but in reality 50 full chin to floor pushes is damn hard!

Freeform you must by from Lau Gar, coz thats what I do too! LOL

TC.....

[Freeform]

Ah, but thats not even I fraction of what I'm up to now ;) My flatmates all think I'm mad.

Like I said, its all about continually improving. I personally don't see the point in doing more than 40-45 push ups in one set (unless its punishment detail for you :( ) By the time you can do this either put more exercises into your routine or start holding for a couple of breaths between push up.

Oh, I'm not a Lau Gar man, but it must be hard if you have to train as hard as me to survive a class ;) .

Colin

[Saz]

Recently I've found that going down with my chin too the floor and holding that for as long as I can, then going back up and holding that for as long as I can seems to be making an improvement in the quality of the press ups. Its also been making Kanku press ups and Wide arm press ups easier.

I've started to use weights to help my training too. I'm thinking of applying some weight to my back or stomach to try and strengthen my press ups too, such as a weighted belt or something. Has anyone here tried this? I'd like to know if its any good?

Osu :)

[Freeform]

I wouldn't try to use weights as it can get quite tricky and dangerous, I've tried push ups with things on my back such as punch bags, my nephew and small women (who da man!).

Rather, rest your feet on a chair and do push ups like that, or get push up extendor grips from Argos for about a fiver (or if your cheap like me make two stacks of hardback books). These exercises should be done along side normal push ups as they exercise the same muscles dofferently and once help develop some of the more obscure muscles.

Thanx

Just a point of interest, when I do push ups I face the ground rather than the wall and let my nose touch the ground (real interesting if your doing speed sets!).

[Tseek Choi]

I still haven't found that blooming 100 push up plan, but I will. (hopefully)
Agreed, doing them with your feet on a chair is excellent. But if you find this hard as I do coz i'm weedy!, practice with your feet on your stairs. Then as you get stronger just move your feet up another step.
Anybody here do three knuckle, or Pheonix knuckle push ups. or rather can any body do them. Coz we have to! But I can't even take my weight on the single knuckle. Even against a wall I find it eally hard. Any ideas?

TC...........

[hongkongfuey]

I once demo'd 1 knuckle press ups on a wooden floor to student who challenged me to show it was possible. 1 press up was enough for me! Can't take the weight either now.

[Saz]

I try to avoid them whenever possible, but its eveitable :( I had to do 40 two knuckle push ups in my last grading. It took me ages and made my hands sore for a few days, but I did it (some shape). We also had to do 15 4 finger press ups. I actually find these easier than knuckle press ups.

Tseek Choi, a good tip if your trying to do these is to praticse on 4 knuckles at first with a pair of sparring mitts or something on. It strengthens the muscles and doesn't hurt so much till you get used to it a bit. Then go to 3, then 2 etc..

Shodan have to do something like 100- 150 press ups on either knuckles or fingers as directed!

Is this standard for karate gradings? How many does your syllabus's say to do?

I've got a set of those push up extenders from Argos. They had sit up bars to hook your feet under as well... much cheaper to hook them under the sofa i reckon :)

[Tseek Choi]

Hi K-girl,
4 knuckles with a fully closed fist is fine. I find these easier than flat palms, because of a broken wrist a few years back!
Or two knuckles, index & middle are ok too.
It's the single pheonix eye push I find hard.
You know with the index finger extended 1 joint.
The finger tip ones aren't too bad, the hard thing is keeping on the tips not on the finger prints, so the end joints don't bend in.

As for grading, there is no requirement to do any during gradings with us, but I think that if say 100-150 is required for a grading, then regular training over the years will enable this to be quite possible.
K-girl, what are those push up bars like to use? because I have often thought about getting some. Only didn't because they would probably end up in the garage with the pull up bar, the strider, the stepping machine and the sit up bar!
( the idea is always better the the reality)

HKF, a friend at training can do about 7-10 on the single extended knuckle! Unbelieveable for me! He says it is just having confidence to take your weight on it that is the barrier to start with.
But I can see his face when he does them, and it really hurts!

But we keep on trying, and that's what counts.

TC.................

[Freeform]

I've only ever seen push ups as part of a grading in TaeKwon-do. You shouldn't hook your feet under anything when your doing sit-ups as you are then taking the strain with your thighs and reducing the benifits on your abs.

Thanx

[Saz]

See, I thought it would hold down your feet and thus make it harder to use your legs to help you up? Would doing it this way help to strengthen your thighs, or is it a possible injury causer? A good way that we do sit ups in the dojo is with our legs crossed in the air.... makes it much harder :)

TC, the push up bars are pretty good, as freeform said earlier, they exercise the same muscles differently and help build up different muscles that are tougher to exersize. I think its a worthwhile investment, they aren't that expensive either. Just don't rely on those alone, because it is different to doing normal press ups.

[Freeform]

I'm an aircraft technician, I got a a welder to make me push up bars for a mars bar.

[Saz]

Lol...My father is a welder too, and thats exactly what he said when he saw the push up bars :)

[hongkongfuey]

The Wing Chun club I went to used to train with long pauses (up to 1 min) between press ups where you hold in the position with arms extended. Try holding for 20 seconds between pressups and doing 10. Then extend the time you wait to 30 seconds, 40 seconds etc. If you can do 10 pressups with a minute pause between then you are doing well.

[Greyghost]

This all sounds very painfil to me...what about press-ups on the backs of the wrist.?

[Saz]

The holding thing does hurt a bit until you get used to it. The backs of the wrist thing sounds more painful, I've heard if this, but never tried it. Is it benefical?

[Tseek Choi]

Back of the wrists push ups, are in fact fairly easy. Honestly!
The key is correct technique.
Many people try to do these on the back of their hand. Ouch! is all I can say!

The actual back of the hand should be clear of the ground, with the body weight supported only on the boney point of the arm bones, and the fingers pointing towards the body.
Incorrect technique can seriously damage the hands.

Any of you old Lau people must have done them, as Neville used to have us doing them with a clap of the hands in between!

A useful training excerise, to enable you to strike with this area using say, a crane technique.

[Freeform]

Push ups on the backs of your wrists are (in Japanesse terminology) called Nikkio Push ups, because it ressembles the wrist lock Nikkio. The idea is to build up ressistance to the technique by doing these push ups.

My first instructor would run a circuit training class (he was an ex-para) before the actual Martial Arts class. The level of fitness you kept was up to you, but he'd try and push you to beyond your 'personal' limits i.e He'd push me and Grannie Brown just as hard but at two different levels.

[jdog_01]

"Shodan have to do something like 100- 150 press ups on either knuckles or fingers as directed!

Is this standard for karate gradings? How many does your syllabus's say to do? "

hahahahaha....100-150 pushups at shodan grading. I wish that was all it was. After four hours of pushups, situps, squat thrusts, kata, punch waza, kick waza, knife waza, club waza and gun waza. I was standing in an open leg stance at near complete exaustion....kind of weaving back and forth while my head instructor and the other black belts were getting things ready for the promotion ceremony. My instructor looked over his shoulder at us and said..."why don't you guys do 50 more pushups while we finish this stuff up." Those had to be the hardest pushups I have ever done in my life! But I made it through...which is what half of it is about. never give up.

[Saz]

Originally posted by jdog_01
"hahahahaha....100-150 pushups at shodan grading. I wish that was all it was."

Actually thats not all it is. To get a Kyokushinkai Shodan takes a 6 hour grading (no break, but thats standard in any MA), going through every single syllabus you've learnt, including their exersizes, techinquies, kata's, renraku, knockdown sparring, tameshiwari, weapons and anything else you've learnt. Some candidates also elect to take a 50-100 man kumite. Hanshi says that anyone who he passes for their black belt has earned it.

100 - 150 press ups, 10 one finger press ups with a 10 second hold in between each one, 150 sit ups, 100 jodan mae geri squats is just what you have to be able to do before they let you go on your Shodan grading, not what you have to do to get the Shodan.

[jdog_01]

6 hours...whew. Thats a damn long time. We went hard and fast...and four hours was enough. I have talked to people who had all day Shodan gradings....but they had a meal break half way through. When you get there you'll have to let me know how it goes. I would be very interested to hear about it.

Some candidates also elect to take a 50-100 man kumite. Hanshi says that anyone who he passes for their black belt has earned it.

Thats good. If you didn't earn it...what would be the point.

good luck!

[Saz]

At my current fitness state, I doubt I could do anything for 6 hours, never mind a grading! The last one I went on was only 3 hours and I was well tired after it... being in cat stance for that long non stop aches a bit :)


Still, got a few years to get fit yet :)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

And once you've done the two knuckle pushups enough, enjoy your new, fashionable walnut like knuckles, and arthritis, along with deformities in your hand that prevent you from doing anything dextrous with them.

On a second note what kinds of actual fight lasts between thirty to fifty minutes?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Ah, see, with that I simply didn't see the one, so I thought you were referring to a single thirty to fifty minute sparring session.

As for the arthritis, its not a misconception. I know of several people who've suffered this way, my instructor being one of them through his years of training in traditional arts before he changed to Choi. Since three of our students are trained doctors, and another is a professional surgeon, I'll take their advise with regards to stuff like this over yours. Thanks anyway.

And as for saying that I lack knowledge, maybe you should actually try seeing if someone does know what they're talking about before saying they have no knowledge. What did I do to get you so upset that you felt you had to call me stupid and narrow-minded?

[darlph]

I'm sorry, I got lost reading about pushups and situps.
If you are having trouble doing push-ups, Try using the wall.
It takes weight off the arms and you can be in proper position with your elbows at your side (no frogs!) and back straight.
The shower is a great place too. Set your sights on 3 sets 10 reps and then work your heighth down gradually. Chances are, you'll start at the top, shoulder high. Start with your feet at least 2 of your own feet long away from the wall and then lean forward. With each advancement as they seem to get easier, move you feet 1/2 footlength away from wall.
When you finally get where the wall is almost impossible to do...use a chair and then block of wood or even big books(large targets will do in a pinch but unless they are relatively new and firm they would be awkward to use)

Goodluck

[LilBunnyRabbit]

The reverse also applies, to make pressups harder simply raise your feet, there's also safe variations such as claps and one-armed.

[ladyhawk]

A series of push ups that we do is to begin in a standing position,
stoop or squat down and place your hands on the floor, now
kick your legs out behind you in a good push up position. do 10
push ups, pull legs into a squat position and stand, repeat entire process doing 9 then 8 and so on. When you finish the last one in the series of sets you have done 55 push ups.
We do knuckle, fingertip, knife hand, clap and regular push ups with fingers forward and fingers in. We also do one leg push ups with one foot resting on top of the other. We do partner push ups where someone holds your feet while standing kinda like a wheelbarrel. You can do vertical push ups by walking your feet up the wall to various levels and raising and lowering yourself.

[Andy Murray]

Hey CKD,

I do knuckle pushups as Paul described. Used to do em with a clap in between. I also punch steel and brick with a maniacal leer on my face, yet I still play piano. Do you think I should get my hands checked out? Do have arthritis in my shoulder though. Used to be able to do 66 full length pushups in a minute, chest touching ground to arms straight. Those were the days......get's all misty eyed:)
If I'd followed Medical advice to the letter I'd have stopped Martial Arts many years ago.
As I said to a student once, who brought up the whole arthritis/osteoparosis thing in relationship .......

"It's a question of what you want, we only do knuckle puushups occasionally to strenghen the wrists and correct alignment, not condition the knuckles. Don't come crying to me if you break your wrist when you hit something"

Pushup variations;

Military pushups:- Descend to inch above the floor at the same time lifting the left leg high and looking over your left shoulder,return to start, followed by opposite leg, opposite shoulder. Try em.....puts more weight on the arms.

Two man pushups:- Only possible if you are very,very strong. Face a partner of similar build. You take up pushup position as do they, except ther hands are on your shoulders. As you descend, so do they, as you extend so do they.

If you can do five reps or more of the last one, then please never hit me ;)

Andy ;)

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Ah, see, with that I simply didn't see the one, so I thought you were referring to a single thirty to fifty minute sparring session.


And what would be wrong with that?


As for the arthritis, its not a misconception. I know of several people who've suffered this way, my instructor being one of them through his years of training in traditional arts before he changed to Choi.


cause and effect or coincidental?

Lots of people get arthritis, lots of people do knuckle push ups, there is bound to be some overlap.


Since three of our students are trained doctors, and another is a professional surgeon, I'll take their advise with regards to stuff like this over yours. Thanks anyway.


There are also doctors who say that it is not harmful at all. There was an article in JAMA a while ago that said Iron hand training can actually prevent and help arthritis. True, knuckle push ups are not quite the same but I'd guesss it still applies.

Conditioning is a good thing, unless you overdo it to early.

I have had students come in with arthritis, they did the conditioning work (knuckle push ups, hitting things) and told me it was actually helping there arthritis...



And as for saying that I lack knowledge, maybe you should actually try seeing if someone does know what they're talking about before saying they have no knowledge. What did I do to get you so upset that you felt you had to call me stupid and narrow-minded?

No offence Jimmy, but Choi does have a everybody else is wrong and where the enlightened sort of attitude at times.

If I may:


Choi Kwang Do’s training methods and concepts are unique in the fitness industry. Recent research is helping to explain how Choi Kwang Do movement directly benefits the nervous system. In fact we could say that coordinated movement is learning. Muscular activities, particularly coordinated movements such as found in CKD appear to stimulate the production of neurotrophins, natural substances that stimulate the growth of nerve cells and increase the number of neural connections in the brain. Unlike traditional martial arts which employ homolateral movements that are harmful to the human body and stressful to the brain, CKD movements are cross-lateral like a baby’s crawl. The CKD techniques work both sides of the body evenly: hands and feet, left and right side, all this in coordination with the eyes. As a result, the corpus collosum (the “nerve” that left and right side of the brain) becomes more fully developed. The coordinated movements activate both hemispheres of the brain which heightens cognitive function and increases the ease of learning. Though modern science is helping us appreciate the role of the body and the need for movement in learning, modern life may be making it harder than ever to benefit from this discovery.


Perhaps you'd be so kind as to explain this for us? Or at least give a reference to the studies which where conducted to demonstrate this? Or why traditional arts don't work both sides of the body?

Combine that with glory shots of the master such as this:
http://www.choikwangdo.com/aboutckd/default.asp

in an art which is about practical self-defence, its not to suprising that a lot of traditionalists don't take it seriously.

Now I don't have a problem with what you do, if your having fun go for it, but I do have a problem with preaching self-defence and then posting nothing but pictures of high flashy kicks and young kids in black belts (http://www.choikwangdo.org.uk/ActionShots/Gobbley/promotion.htm)

I certainly can't do what he's doing in that shot (to be honest I think only dogs should be able to get into a position like that) but I know its not a pratical self-defence technique.

But yet, the web pages would illustrate that it is http://www.choikwangdo.com.au/page9.html

I also have to wonder about a style which offers instructors a chance to switch to there program http://www.choikwangdo.com.au/index.html (down and left)
How in depth can the curriculum be if I can just switch to it that easily?

Again I mean no offence, I've not met/trained with anyone from a Choi's school, but I believe you've mentioned a couple times how others disrispect your style. Here is my exposure to it.

I see nothing wrong with it as a fitness program with some self-defence applications. BUT it attacks traditional schools, shows flashy demo sporty kicks that are not practical as self-defence, and beside them puts "Realistic Self-Defence".

So based on my very limited knoweldge of CKD I have a hard time buying into anything that comes out of that organization. But I do keep an Open mind. Show me the evidence and I'll evaluate it myself.

And that is why as a traditional stylist, which apparently is a bad thing, I don't care much for the claims of Mr. Choi's Association. To me it looks like a modified version of TKD with big words and a lot of waffling to make everything else look not only less beneficial, but harmful. I consider CKD, at least based on its advertising, to be a misrepresentation of the martial arts and only adds to the belief held by some that Asian martial arts way look pretty, but are not all that practical.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Pressups: safer not to take the risk, but its the person's choice. I just said that I'd prefer not to do them.

30-50 minute single sparring session as opposed to multiple against various opponents: it wouldn't have that much of a point. What kind of fight is going to last thirty minutes? I can vaguely understand it as an endurance thing, but as people get tired their distance control slips. The thirty one-minute bouts does make sense, that I can understand.


No offence Jimmy, but Choi does have a everybody else is wrong and where the enlightened sort of attitude at times.


And that makes us unique among the martial arts?

That particular kick is an overly high twisting kick, flashy but not necessarily effective. Twisting kick as a kick is designed to be targeted to any level, beginning with the shin and knee and working up. It is taught at brown belt level, and the height is simply a demonstration of abilities. Then again having seen the speed and felt the power of that kick, I have no doubt that if you're good enough you can make it an effective self-defense technique at that height.

Not both sides of the body, all of the body. Taking the rear inwards punch as the simplest technique. Torque forwards, raising up the rear arm to be parallel to the floor. Hold back the fist and elbow until you feel the stretch across the chest. Continuing to talk forwards push off the rear ball of the foot and fire out the technique, after 3 or 4 inches of follow through allow the arm to drop away.

Now, you'll find that many (although not all) traditional martial arts practice techniques fired purely from one side of the body, or involving one limb. Take a karate snap front kick. Raise knee, kick, lower knee. I will admit now that probably not all karate schools teach this, but the ones that I've been to do.

Choi front leg front kick: torque back, settle the weight onto your rear leg, tuck the front leg and bring the foot up towards your bum, bring the knee up above the target line and kick out in a reverse cycling motion, rechamber the leg in front, and put the foot down.

The switch requires six months of intensive training, and the same examination which any other person going for instructor would go through. I know several people who've been doing this. It's not the easy option.

We need to grow, so we make it relatively easy for instructors to join. They don't have to work for several years from white belt, after already having spent long enough getting their belt, and its evident that they've got the capability to learn the stuff, so they should be able to learn it quickly.


BUT it attacks traditional schools, shows flashy demo sporty kicks that are not practical as self-defence, and beside them puts "Realistic Self-Defence".


I count one flashy demo sporty kick. I suppose when you're trying to draw in members you stick strictly to practical stuff, that's your choice. Personally I'll let them look at the pretty stuff to get them in the class, then show them the practical stuff once I've got hold of them. As for the attacking traditional schools, there is not one statement that does not apply to many traditional martial arts.

As for calling it a misrepresentation of the martial arts, drop down to a class sometime.

Choi is Practical Street Self Defense, whether its a martial art is open to debate. I personally think it is, you disagree, fair enough.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Pressups: safer not to take the risk, but its the person's choice. I just said that I'd prefer not to do them.


Just don't say it causes problems if you can't back it up.


30-50 minute single sparring session as opposed to multiple against various opponents: it wouldn't have that much of a point. What kind of fight is going to last thirty minutes? I can vaguely understand it as an endurance thing, but as people get tired their distance control slips. The thirty one-minute bouts does make sense, that I can understand.


Hard Training?
Endurance?
Fun?

I'm not a big follower of MMA fighting but many fights went that long before they started having rounds.



And that makes us unique among the martial arts?


No, others do it, that doesn't make it alright.


That particular kick is an overly high twisting kick, flashy but not necessarily effective. Twisting kick as a kick is designed to be targeted to any level, beginning with the shin and knee and working up.


He's hitting a target held behind him...


Now, you'll find that many (although not all) traditional martial arts practice techniques fired purely from one side of the body, or involving one limb. Take a karate snap front kick. Raise knee, kick, lower knee.


What is your experience with other "traditional" schools?

It's a little more complicated then that, what you have is a very basic and simplified version taught by some to beginners before showing them how to do it with power.

Economy of motion is however a main principle.


The switch requires six months of intensive training, and the same examination which any other person going for instructor would go through. I know several people who've been doing this. It's not the easy option.


I don't think you could learn my curriculum to an instructor level in 6 months. Nor any other style.


I count one flashy demo sporty kick. I suppose when you're trying to draw in members you stick strictly to practical stuff, that's your choice. Personally I'll let them look at the pretty stuff to get them in the class, then show them the practical stuff once I've got hold of them. As for the attacking traditional schools, there is not one statement that does not apply to many traditional martial arts.


False Advertising?

As for just one...

http://www.choikwangdo.org.uk/ActionShots/Mingsu/MrWright.htm

http://www.choikwangdo.org.uk/ActionShots/Mingsu/MrKhengar.htm

http://www.choikwangdo.org.uk/ActionShots/Mingsu/MrHarper.htm

http://www.choikwangdo.org.uk/ActionShots/firstGrading/JumpingSwingKick.htm

http://www.choikwangdo.com/images/itpic3.jpg

Intro sequence http://www.choikwangdo.co.uk/

http://www.choikwangdo.co.uk/Album%201/Seminar2000/GrandMasterChoiSwingKick.htm

http://www.choikwangdo.co.uk/Album%201/ActionShots/KeithBanfieldJumpingTwistingKick.htm

would you like me to continue?

Oh and could you explain the young black belts enganged in "Mortal Combat"
http://www.choikwangdo.com/floridatrip02.asp

And what are the minimium age and time requirements for 1st black?
http://www.choikwangdo.org.uk/ActionShots/Gobbley/promotion.htm


As for calling it a misrepresentation of the martial arts, drop down to a class sometime.

There are no schools anywhere near me.

[morphus]

Choi Kwang Do does not have it that everyone else(trad arts)is wrong,our art is taken from these arts, Grand Master Choi studied these arts for many years hence being able to kick as shown in the pic' on the link(this is the optimal way to do this kick however GMC knows not everybody can kick this way, and that reflects in gradings)but, his original training eventually damaged his health, so he devised a way of training that is NOT detrimental to ones health IE:yoga stretching,punching striking kicking without lockout movements which cause hypa-extention and weaken the joints(how many times have you performed a full force kick in kata or forms and had extreme pain in the joint because you kicked too hard-if it's self defence how can you kick too hard?).
At the same time GMC thought(as do so many modern martial artists)that the trad' forms/kata/drills were not practical for a street confrontation and that not everybody could kick at a certain height and smaller people would have a disadvantage(size),taking all of this in to concideration he researched bio-mechanics and found a way that a smaller person could be more powerful using body mechanics/sequential movement and made patterns with strikes/punches/kicks that anyone could do(including someone with disabilities) not just an athlete and geared them towards what you may use in a street confrontation; with this and many other groungbreaking drills he came up with CHOI KWANG DO. this is (more or less) the way we train, we recommend it; it doesn't mean we have all the answers but we are striving to be the best we can, everybody trains for personal gain, this is a huge part of CKD!

P.S i think the young black belt on the link is just a harmless joke.

[morphus]

No - one should be so confident in there style, that think it can' be bettered! Including us.
Humbly yours - morphus

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by morphus
Choi Kwang Do does not have it that everyone else(trad arts)is wrong,our art is taken from these arts,

I quote "traditional martial arts which employ homolateral movements that are harmful to the human body and stressful to the brain"

[QUOTE]
Grand Master Choi studied these arts for many years hence being able to kick as shown in the pic' on the link(this is the optimal way to do this kick however GMC knows not everybody can kick this way, and that reflects in gradings)but, his original training eventually damaged his health, so he devised a way of training that is NOT detrimental to ones health


Perhaps he was doing it wrong?


IE:yoga stretching,punching striking kicking without lockout movements which cause hypa-extention and weaken the joints(how many times have you performed a full force kick in kata or forms and had extreme pain in the joint because you kicked too hard-if it's self defence how can you kick too hard?).


Never, no instructor worth his salt would teach you to lock out the joints.


At the same time GMC thought(as do so many modern martial artists)that the trad' forms/kata/drills were not practical for a street confrontation


Perhaps, like many others, he didn't know how to apply the kata correctly.




and that not everybody could kick at a certain height


Most traditional styles kick low, not high. Mostly only modern sport styles kick high. As well as a few of the showier Chinese styles, Capoeira, etc. Which are done as dance and performance move, fitness, agility, etc. Not as pratical techniques.



and smaller people would have a disadvantage(size),taking all of this in to concideration he researched bio-mechanics and found a way that a smaller person could be more powerful using body mechanics/sequential movement and made patterns with strikes/punches/kicks that anyone could do(including someone with disabilities) not just an athlete and geared them towards what you may use in a street confrontation; with this and many other groungbreaking drills he came up with CHOI KWANG DO. this is (more or less) the way we train, we recommend it; it doesn't mean we have all the answers but we are striving to be the best we can, everybody trains for personal gain, this is a huge part of CKD!

Nope, traditional styles no how to generate power, the forms teach realistic defences. Most "tradtional" forms contain strikes, kicks, locks, throws, weapon defences, etc.

Smaller person will always be at a disadvantage, hence weight classes in combat sports.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

All an instructor needs to be able to do is teach to a couple of levels above their students, and then keep ahead.

No need to know how to teach third dan when you're opening a new school and teaching white belts.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by morphus
P.S i think the young black belt on the link is just a harmless joke. [/B]

I agree, but then it should be presented as such, not as a "real" promotion. My claim is basically that CKD claims to be doing one thing, when all there pictures tend to indicate they are doing something different. Based on the information presented by them about themselves I would say they are not in fact teaching self-defence material. But rather a off shoot of sport TKD with simplified forms while using the "realistic self-defence" line combined with flashy kicks to appeal to those who no little about martial arts except what they see on TV. From there the student is fed misleading and inaccurate information about the dangers of other styles and how training in them is not just less effective, but actually hazardass to ones health.

If this is not true, fine. But thats how they present themselves.

[Andy Murray]

Hi Guys,
err I seem to recall there's a Choi Kwang Do thread kicking round here somewhere.
Certainly the discussion on pushups is getting a litle buried is it not?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

The advertising is just that, advertising, trying to gain new members. We're a very small martial art that few know of. We're trying to get a lot bigger, so we advertise in ways that appeal to people. Flashy techniques look good, and will draw people into the class. Most demonstrations though, and even most photos, are simply of people doing the standard techniques.

Sport TKD would hardly be a good basis, since we don't compete so learning sports-only stuff would be kind of pointless.

Saying that Grandmaster Choi was simply bad at TKD would seem to go against the fact that he was in the Korean National Demonstration Team until he crippled himself with the techniques.

Some schools still do teach locking out, of the schools that I've visited there was one TKD school and two karate schools which taught locking out as an essential. There are more than a few instructors out there, in all martial arts, who aren't worth their salt.

The curriculum has changed a lot since Choi was founded, and there were huge differences from TKD in the first place. Try and bother finding out what it is you're talking about before simply claiming we do a variant of sport TKD. It seems I'm not the only one apparently lacking knowledge.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Apologies Andy, we have got a little side-tracked. Anyone care to move over to the Choi thread to continue this?

[morphus]

Just one last thing, i thought the fact that mr green had clicked on to sites about CKD he'd have read the history.
Kwang Jo Choi was trained by general Hi Hong Choi himself and became a master at TKD, i doubt very much he was performing techniques incorrectly. the general had a nick name for Kwang Jo Choi - "Model of tae kwon do". Kwang Jo Choi knew and Knows his stuff. That doesnt mean he's got all the answers. Thats all.

[Saz]

Hi Paul, nice to see another Kyokushin practioner here :)

The reason why we do press-ups on our first two knuckles is (a) to build up calus, (b) to strengthen the wrist and forearm.

On top of this, isn't it meant to help with hand conditioning for knockdown/tameshiwari too?

One thing I'm not sure on is the benefits of the finger press ups. Obviously we wouldn't be doing them if there was no reason for it, but what techniques are they used to strengthen? The only move that I can think of on my syllabus so far is nikite strikes(spearhand).

Osu.

[khafra]

I feel left out; I think I'm the only member that hasn't contributed to this thread yet, so: One more pushup style, from the military. Start up, go down to an inch off the ground. Hold it. Lean to the left as far as you can without moving your hands, and hold. Ditto for the right. Then back to the center, and up*

*Not responsible for injuries incurred as a result of these exercises, including but not limited to arthritis, hyperextension, rotator cuff tears, scarred tendons, sprains, stroke, cardiac arrest, acute death, or feeling kinda tuckered out the next day

[Tseek Choi]

Hi Eeryone!
I find that fingertip pushups are excellent for increasing strength in wrists & forearms, as well as obviously the hands/fingers themselves.
Within the chinese arts this type of strength is essential for correct application of Chi Na / Kum Na techniques, and i'm sure within KKSK kata there are also many techniques that involve actually gripping & holding the opponent.

Take for example a basiu Fu jow (tiger claw). The deflecting hand requires strength to grip and hold the opponents arm, while the attacking hand has to be sufficiently strong to either grasp the opponents windpipe or to rake down the face.

Also within many ChiNa techniques the objective is not to just grip the opponents arm, but to lift muscle tissue from bone, or to damage connective tissue, not to even start to mention the pressing of vital points along meridians.
All of these applications of gripping require a great deal of strength in the fingers and provided the fingertip pushups are performed correctly then no long term damage will result.
As stated elsewhere the key is to nsure that the excerise is performed on the finger tips NOT the finger prints, as this can damage the end finger joint.

cheers
Colin....................................

[KarateMom]

Kyokushin_girl,

I was bad at them to! We had to do 50 also. So I asked my instructor when the belt testing would be. Four weeks from the night. So I went home and the next morning I started out by warming up my arms then I did 20. (I did this twice per day for a week)
Then I easily added ten more in each week until I got to 50.

Remember warm up drink some water and cool down.

[TkdWarrior]

hmm u should go for long term goals...
like if u can do 20 then do it 20 the whole week without missing single day...
then increase by 2 or more not more than 5...
keep on increasing every week...
if u think next week u can do more than last week press ups...then continue same same no of press ups(last weeks) for whole week ...
u'll see results in couple of months...
i took up to 100 press ups..
with lil breaks after 50 i could go up to 130...
and remember as most ppl said "Go for quality not for quantity"
-TkdWarrior-

[Cain]

Ahh yes the quality Tkdwarrior you sure could teach me a few something someday when we meet :D anyways you are absolutely right it's the quality of the push-ups that count.

I admit I can do 85 push-ups but I can do only 40 push-ups perfectly with my chest touching the ground. The rest is all messy and sweaty....
|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

"Ahh yes the quality Tkdwarrior you sure could teach me a few something someday when we meet :D"

u r always welcome cain...
-TkdWarrior-

[khafra]

If you want to improve your pushups or die trying, here's an insane 2-week workout regimen I got from a bodybuilding friend. Make sure you take at least a full week off from any upper-body exercise afterwards.


: On mondays do a max set in the morning and base all of your subsequent sets off this max set
: monday-sunday:
: Monday 40% (one set) of you max every 60mins
: tuesday 50% every 30mins
: wednesday 70% every 45 mins
: thurs 40% every 60mins
: friday 80% every 60mins
: saturday 55% every 90 mins
: Sun 20% every 90 mins
: Week 2
: Monday (max set) and 90% every 120mins
: tues 45% every 60 mins
: wed 20% every 10 mins
: thurs 65% every 90mins
: friday 75% every 60 mins
: saturday 30% every 90 mins
: sunday 15% every 120 mins
: Week 3
: Week 3...monday do a Test Set(max)

[Tosh]

The quickest way I've found to break 100 was a combination of Freeform's techinque, Plain 'ole hard graft in the morning and the second most important one.

1) Set timer to go
2) Perform as many push ups as you can to failure.
3) Stop timer
4) Give yourself a break for the amount of time it took to perform to failure.
5) Reset timer and go to 1).

If you are exerting max effort every time the max number should be coming down. Repeat until your getting down to about 10% of your original number (or alternatively your arms fall off).

Since this method is actually breaking down your recovery time you should actualy notice the difference in the amount you can do in one session increasing rapidly.

Always works up a sweat...same method can be used for abs exercises too.

Happy sweating! :D

P.s. Incidently a recent study found people who exercised for 20 mins in the morning before an afternoon workout increased (performance wise) 10 times quicker against those that did none

[Freeform]

I used to be able to do 100 in one sitting, but I wasn't 14+ stone then! About 70 odds the most I can do in one sitting (make sure they're proper though! :D )

Tosh your making me look bad, only one answer for it...

MUST TRAIN HARDER!!! ;)

Colin

[Andy Murray]

You don't look 14+stone Colin

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
You don't look 14+stone Colin

He carries a lot of loose change

[Freeform]

I'm, how would you say, rather dense? :D

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Freeform
I'm, how would you say, rather dense? :D


:D Do you sink in the pool??? Me mate Gary has this problem he literally just sinks in the water. mInd you he is absolutely "ripped" and he weighs about 63kgs

[Freeform]

Yes, I don't float well. Makes swimming all that much more fun though ;)

[Darzeka]

I only want to be able to do 1 pushup. 2 mins down, 2mins up.

When I do pushups I usually do sets of 15 interspersed with sets of 30 situps. 100 pushups and 200 situps will take me about half an hour.

I use lots of variations. All done on knuckles. Fists verticle - elbows tucked in, fists horizontal - elbows out, wide ones - fist horizontal, "chinese pushups" - using hands make triangle with fingers and make them touch, then push up ith them in front of your chest, tripods - one hand vertical at hip the other horizontal and out in front, tiger push ups - get a wall, put the soles of your feet against it form triangle with your body and the ground, bend your arms - all weight is on shoulders, the smaller gap between feet and hands the better.

[Telsun]

Hi there
Have you achieved your goal with your pushups yet?

When I joined my current club 3 or so years ago my body got a bit of a shock when I was expected to do about 50+ pushups, I was used to about 20!!

This is what I did to get me upto scratch. This is a very popular weight training routine. Usually the progression is poundages (i.e weights) but in this instance it is reps.

I was used to doing 20 reps. I started the first day of the cycle with just 10 reps. A days rest then 12 reps, a days rest then 14, etc, etc. When things started getting hard I would just aim for 1 extra rep. If I struggled to get that rep then I would give myself EXTRA days rest before attempting the next set. When I got to the point when I could not do anymore I took a week off.

When I resumed training I dropped myself 10 reps (if you was at say 40 then you would drop to 30) then repeat the cycle.

This is a tried and tested method, very slow but progressive.

Alot of people have commented on pressup style. They are all on the mark about that. I cannot honestly confess that my 100 pressup target was the perfect pressup. But to do 100 pressups nose to the ground or nearly to the ground in any style is quite an achievement and should be respected. I only did it to keep up with the others in the club. However I would rather stick to low reps with slow deliberate form. This hurts and I feel is more time effective than 100 pushups.

Hope this helps or at least provides food for thought.

[Saz]

I do really need to get back into it. Before my last grading I had improved loads, I could do about 40 seiken push ups. We had to do 30 for the grading, so I thought I was sorted till they made us do two sets! Now I've dropped back down to about 20-25, having had a break for Christmas etc. I agree that the slow deliberate way of doing press ups is better. It takes a lot longer to get the quantity, but the quality is better, and to me that counts :)

[iolair]

I compared the sylabbi of different martial arts a while ago, 100 push ups for Shodan is pretty typical, I think the range I saw across style was something like 70 to 200.

If you need to increase the number you can do, JUST practising standard pushups is inefficient. You need to also do a version with greater effort, for example:
1) Plyometric Pushups (fast, hands come away from the ground on the up motion)
2) Pushups with your feet raised about 2 ft from the floor (using a stool or similar)
3) Very slow pushups
4) Loose weights: Bench Press
5) Loose weights: Triceps Extension
6) Loose weights: Dumbell flyover

[pgm316]

I've only recently started reading about Plyometric exercises iolair. Until then I've always thought most value is doing things slowly in a precise way. But it seems the use of Plyometric training will generate more explosive power. So there is a lot of value in doing fast push ups.

What exactly are exercises 5 & 6 that u mention?

[Cain]

Plyometric push ups can be fast but the push-ups which iolair was mentioning where u come down in a push-up and then u push urself up so that for an instant ur both hands are in the air where u clap them and come back down.

|Cain|

[iolair]

5) Triceps extension
This is an isolating exercise for the triceps (the muscle on the back of the upper arm). The triceps is the weaker muscle involved in the push up/punching action, so is often a limiting factor in push ups.

You are upright when you carry out the exercise, you have a dumbbell in one or both hands, you reach down behind your head, then straighten the arms upwards above your head.

A google search for "triceps extension" quickly finds an animation of the exercise: http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Triceps/DBTriExt.html

6) Dumbell flyover is an isolation exercise for the chest muscles. You lie on your back (on a bench is easiest) with your arms straight out to the sides: a dumbbell in each hand. Lift your arms up above your chest keeping them straight, then return them back to the sides.


To increase strength, you need a weight you can lift about 6 to 12 times on these exercises, to concentrate on muscle endurance a weight you can lift 10 to 20 times. For the "normal" version of the exercises, take about 2 seconds to lift the weight, and 1 second to lower it: don't pause between repetitions. Warm up the muscles with a lighter weight first if your doing low reps... If you're not used to weights, do 1 to 3 sets each of 10 reps to start with.

[pgm316]

Thanks for the advice iolair. I'll give number 5 a go. I've got my own weights and go to the gym, but I've never really learnt the best way to use them though........

I've started using heavier weights also, like you mentioned, in 3 sets of 12. How many pounds would you use for no. 5?

I do something similar to no. 6, but its using a bar and from a standing position, so probably now very similar at all :p

[macoda]

Hello KGirl,

if you want to boost your pushup
count fast, why not trying a fitness centre?
there you can train the muscles you need,
with a lower load on the muscles 'preventing'
an overload resulting in oh yess muscular pain.
did help me quite a lot! :cool:

Cya,

marinus

[Reiki]

yes we all hate them too but they are a necessary evil in developing punching power.

I vary between 70 and 100 in one batch most days. I have to do many sets of 80 for my next grading...

The best way of improving your capabilites to do more is to do them V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y ! Also holding the down and halfway position for some time will help you too!

Do them and do them some more. :D
Then do them again.

[macoda]

yes we all hate them too but they are a necessary evil in developing punching power.

I vary between 70 and 100 in one batch most days. I have to do many sets of 80 for my next grading...

The best way of improving your capabilites to do more is to do them V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y ! Also holding the down and halfway position for some time will help you too!

Do them and do them some more. :D
Then do them again.

:confused:
As a karateka you do not want to do push ups slowly,
when you do pushups slowly, you train the short muscles,
while for speed you need the long muscles,.....
to train the proper muscles,
you need to push hard
and then go down slow!

By the way i like the last line,
well said reiki ;)

Cya,
marinus

[Knight_Errant]

long muscles? short muscles? what the hell are you talking about? do you know?
*cough dips are a much better option IMHO cough*
Here comes another bottom line, brought to you by MAP's favourite clueless waster:
the only way to get better at pushups is by DOING THEM. Methods like grease the groove etc. are useful (sets to less than failure every hour all day) in building up your numbers.

[Reiki]

I think u misunderstood me macoda, we do vary our pressups to include slow and fast ones, however the best way I've found to improve your arm strength is to do slow pressups, and to hold the pressup position for as long as possible.

The very best advice I can give you is to do the pressups then do them some more and then do them again until you can't.

Hindu pressups can be helpful in getting up the numbers & strenght too, however since I've been still nursing my wrist tendons, I've found the extreme movement of the Hindu pressups is difficult for my wrist and it tends to make it rather sore still so I use these with caution. It's taken months to heal slowly and I'd rather not go through all that again.

Naturally its harder for us women doing pressups than it is for the blokes doing pressups because they have higher upper body strength. They do however seem to struggle more on the situps/crunches than we do.

[macoda]

I think u misunderstood me macoda, we do vary our pressups to include slow and fast ones, however the best way I've found to improve your arm strength is to do slow pressups, and to hold the pressup position for as long as possible.

The very best advice I can give you is to do the pressups then do them some more and then do them again until you can't.

Hindu pressups can be helpful in getting up the numbers & strenght too, however since I've been still nursing my wrist tendons, I've found the extreme movement of the Hindu pressups is difficult for my wrist and it tends to make it rather sore still so I use these with caution. It's taken months to heal slowly and I'd rather not go through all that again.

Naturally its harder for us women doing pressups than it is for the blokes doing pressups because they have higher upper body strength. They do however seem to struggle more on the situps/crunches than we do.

Hi Reiki,

alright, sorry I indeed misunderstood....
I agree....combinations of both slow and fast pressups works best.
fast ones to increase speed, and slow ones to increase the amount of muscles.
Hidu pressups..... I do not understand what you mean with this
I see it at the fitness centre Im training as well, for most women it's much harder than for the blokes, althoug there are women.... who do pressups with weights tree times as much as me... :eek: RESPECT!

cheers,
marinus

[Knight_Errant]

Perhaps, if you don't even know what a hindu pushup is, you'd do best to keep your advice to yourself until you are more knowledgable. Especially if you have such an inadequate conception of the difference between strength, endurance and muscle size.
You'll find an explanation of hindu pressups and divebombers here:
http://www.trainforstrength.com/ex-1.shtml

[White Raven]

Warning

Do not do too many pushups (or anything) at once. I recently did 500 push-ups, 500 situ-ps, and 500 hindu squats (about two days ago) and I've been hobbling around ever since...
- Words of Wisdom from
a Green Belt, Osu

[karatepig]

I have been sick for a month so am back to building up on the push ups. I start with as many as I could do in good form (my first attempt I managed to do 6 in excellent form then another 8 with a smaller dip) then drop to my knees and do a few more. Another good thing is to hold myself down position in the push up for a 10 count (or longer) after I have done a full set of push ups.

But, the best thing I have is a fit ball - also called a swiss ball. I got one as a present and it is really entertaining to play on, so I find that I sit on it and roll around on it and balance on it while watching tv. Push ups off the swiss ball are great because you need to maintain balance, and so both arms have to work fairly evenly. And it does not even feel like work!

[Albert]

I've started to use weights to help my training too. I'm thinking of applying some weight to my back or stomach to try and strengthen my press ups too, such as a weighted belt or something. Has anyone here tried this? I'd like to know if its any good?

Thats a good idea, im going to try it.

[Blooming Lotus]

Does anyone have any tips for doing press ups? I'm really bad at them, and I can only manage to do about 25 in one go before I cave. We're expected to be able to do 50 in one go in the dojo, and for my grading, at least 35. So I'm coming up short for both.

Can anyone recommend any way I can get an increase in the number of push up's I can do, such as other exersize's etc? I do practice, but I can never seem to go above 25.

Osu

Sarah


Yah. I have done up to 500 + pushups in crazy seshes ( in sets of 50 with 0 - 1-3 min rests ) daily for months in a row at times over the past several yrs.
Imo, all it comes down to is the amount of sugar in your joints ( particularly complex carbs .......and doesn't that feel great to work off!! When I load , I even tell myself that it''ll be a good honest hypertrophic workout and think, well .......time to work some 'o that sugar out of joints) and the alignment of your spine . I also like to do some of them without breathing and using reverse breathing techs, I even do whole sets where I do 10 or 20 or so at a time with my breath in pelvic ( lower ) diaphragm. This causes a toxic burn off and is a good reactive speed building exercise even when done at medium pace ( though lol because I know that that'll likely make no sense whatsogoddammed ever :) It 's a qigong / satori thing if you wondered thing...... but you don't even have to know how it works....... just do it and it will )

good luck with it

Bl

Btw : don't feel bad about my maxout rep no either, at the moment I'm just edging back on a regular 150- 200 and if I only do 100 or 50 in a day 3 days in row ( for whatever reason ) I don't care........

cheers

[Blooming Lotus]

Warning

Do not do too many pushups (or anything) at once. I recently did 500 push-ups, 500 situ-ps, and 500 hindu squats (about two days ago) and I've been hobbling around ever since...
- Words of Wisdom from
a Green Belt, Osu


lol............speaking of wisdom bosun, no -one ever said to conquer rome in one day and particularly on the day you got your first armoury lesson !!!!!!!!!!!!! Considering what you missed workout and comfort wise in the days after, probably not such a great plan. :rolleyes:


BL

[pulp fiction]

Tha wider your hands are separted decreases the amount of force required by the arms to do a push up. If you do push ups with your hands almost touching your arms would support almost 100% of your body weight.

When you do a lot of this kind of push ups when you try again regular push ups they are easier.

[Getalifebud]

I have recently got out of the habit of doing my push ups and other excersises, I need to get back into it.

[Blooming Lotus]

Well it only takes 1 to restart. ;) :)


Tha wider your hands are separted decreases the amount of force required by the arms to do a push up. If you do push ups with your hands almost touching your arms would support almost 100% of your body weight.


pending where your elbows and finger tips were pointing


When you do a lot of this kind of push ups when you try again regular push ups they are easier.


If you have good form and incorporate the best of the muscle groups most wholly available at that angle from tip to toe, you'll get a good workout at any angle. Try it driving your shoulder blades down your back as you go down or chest bridged working your traps and then try monitoring your palm / knuckle balance . .......... now we're talking increasing tension :D

BL

[NaughtyKnight]

Getting better at pushups comes down to doing more pushups.

[NaughtyKnight]

Warning

Do not do too many pushups (or anything) at once. I recently did 500 push-ups, 500 situ-ps, and 500 hindu squats (about two days ago) and I've been hobbling around ever since...
- Words of Wisdom from
a Green Belt, Osu

Err, ok. :rolleyes:

[TheCount]

Well mate, congrats, your stronger and more capable at bodyweights than US SEALEs are meant to be. Can't imagine why you might have cramp

[slipthejab]

Warning

Do not do too many pushups (or anything) at once. I recently did 500 push-ups, 500 situ-ps, and 500 hindu squats (about two days ago) and I've been hobbling around ever since...

Can you give us a bit more info on this.

Was it 500 continuous?

if so... What was the time?

Was it for all of those exercises continuously - one right after the other?

err.. and what was the point? :D

[slipthejab]

Well mate, congrats, your stronger and more capable at bodyweights than US SEALEs are meant to be. Can't imagine why you might have cramp

Count bro,
Your killin' me every time you post this...

These are Navy SEAL's

[slipthejab]

these are the other kind...

[slipthejab]

One is ugly and mean and kills people.

and the other is mainly is cute and furry.

Neither are spelled... SEALEs. :D

[TheCount]

Lol