Balintawak// any one out there doing it???/

[Acekicken]

My instructer is real Hot on this Subject
I see it as a corto Styel with Some Wicked Sweet Moves.

I Prefer Largo Mano But am
enjoying the Training anyone else doing it????

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Acekicken
My instructer is real Hot on this Subject
I see it as a corto Styel with Some Wicked Sweet Moves.

I Prefer Largo Mano But am
enjoying the Training anyone else doing it????

There are at least 2 branches of Balintawak that I'm aware of. I'm pretty well versed in Bobby Taboada's system of Balintawak Cuentada. I have all the skill and material that he requires for "completion of art" ... but I'm not interested in going down to NC and shelling out the money for the test. I respect the art and Bobby a lot ... but I'm not all that interested in pursuing formal rank in it (I've got enough on my plate as it is).

However, I can probably answer questions you may have about Balintawak in general and, specifically, Bobby's system.

Mike

[pesilat]

Oh ... and something else I meant to mention ...

I'd actually consider it a medio system ... but it does have corto elements, and largo elements. But its bulk (at least in Bobby's system) is, to my eyes, medio. As far as sweet moves ... ayup. It's got some *very* good material in it.

Mike

[Acekicken]

My instructer is Datu Tim Hartman
He is Grand Master Remy 's highets Tested Black Belt in The U.S.
(Modern Arnis )

And Now training in Balintawak Through Ted Buit
Who was The Man Chosen By Balintawak Grand Master
Ancion Bacon.

Im Not Familar With Bobby Taboda?
But am intrested in knowing The Concepts Behined
This Close Range F.M.A. or Corto Mano.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Acekicken
My instructer is Datu Tim Hartman
He is Grand Master Remy 's highets Tested Black Belt in The U.S.
(Modern Arnis )

And Now training in Balintawak Through Ted Buit
Who was The Man Chosen By Balintawak Grand Master
Ancion Bacon.

Im Not Familar With Bobby Taboda?
But am intrested in knowing The Concepts Behined
This Close Range F.M.A. or Corto Mano.

Yup. I'm familiar with both Tim Hartman and Ted Buot by reputation. I've not seen any of Ted's Balintawak but would love to some time :)

Bobby was a student of Villasin, who was a student of Bacon. Bobby also trained some with Bacon and some of the other senior students under him ... but Villasin was Bobby's primary instructor in Balintawak. Bobby also trained in boxing and Shotokan ... and possibly others (I'm pulling this from memory and apologize if I'm misstating anything).

Most of the FMA I've trained in has been medio or corto ... probably about 60% medio, 40% corto, and 10% largo.

Usually, when I get into corto range, I start using Silat.

The ranges (for those who don't know) are generally defined as follows:

Largo Mano (literally, "long hand") is long range and covers anything from where you can hit your opponent's hand/arm with your stick but can't reach his head or body.

Medio is the middle range and covers where you can hit your opponent with the long end of your stick. At this range, your live hand (the one with no weapon, or a shorter weapon) starts coming into play to check, monitor, and trap.

Corto is the close range where you can reach your opponent's head and body with your punyo (the short end of your stick) and your hands/head/elbows/knees/etc. This is also where the grappling (dumog or buno) starts coming into play.

The actual physical range differs from person to person and weapon to weapon. Largo range with empty hands, for instance, is medio range for a stick. Largo range for kicks is roughly the same as with a stick. Medio range with hands means boxing range and corto with hands means elbows and headbutts. And, of course, since different people have different reaches, their personal ranges will be different for each weapon, too.

Mike

[Acekicken]

Kool I Like Largo Mano stick Fighting
When I Get to close it Becomes a Submisson Wrestling Match
Submisson is My 1st passion but i strive to be complete.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Acekicken
Kool I Like Largo Mano stick Fighting
When I Get to close it Becomes a Submisson Wrestling Match
Submisson is My 1st passion but i strive to be complete.

Yeah. My largo is pretty limited. It's mostly geared toward getting through to medio and corto ranges. If I can finish a fight at largo, though, I most certainly will. But, personally, I like the close range stuff and am comfortable there. I also like being able to bring *all* of my weapons to bear. Also, a lot of people aren't real comfortable in the corto range ... which often gives me an upper hand if I can get there.

But, as with everything, it boils down to personal attributes and preferences. With my body type and mindset, corto suits me and I find it very comfortable. Largo doesn't suit me as well.

Another reason that largo doesn't suit me personally is my eyesight. My depth perception sucks. So I'd much rather be in close where my timing relies on tactile input instead of visual.

Mike

[renegade]

Originally posted by pesilat


Yup. I'm familiar with both Tim Hartman and Ted Buot by reputation. I've not seen any of Ted's Balintawak but would love to some time :)

Bobby was a student of Villasin, who was a student of Bacon. Bobby also trained some with Bacon and some of the other senior students under him ... but Villasin was Bobby's primary instructor in Balintawak. Bobby also trained in boxing and Shotokan ... and possibly others (I'm pulling this from memory and apologize if I'm misstating anything).


I heard my name. Probably nothing good was said.

As far as the Balintawak family tree goes with Bobby is as follows.

Bacon taught Villasin.

Villasin taught Velez.

Velez taught Bobby.

This comes from Ted Buot who kept records of the club.

Tim Hartman

[pesilat]

Originally posted by renegade


I heard my name. Probably nothing good was said.

As far as the Balintawak family tree goes with Bobby is as follows.

Bacon taught Villasin.

Villasin taught Velez.

Velez taught Bobby.

This comes from Ted Buot who kept records of the club.

Tim Hartman

Hi Tim. No, nothing good was said ... just kidding :) Actually, political crap aside, everything I've heard about you has been positive.

Thanks for the clarification. As I said, I was pulling from memory and I must have gotten my "V" names confused.

Mike

[renegade]

Originally posted by pesilat


Hi Tim. No, nothing good was said ... just kidding :) Actually, political crap aside, everything I've heard about you has been positive.

They must have been on the payroll!

[pesilat]

Originally posted by renegade


They must have been on the payroll!

LOL ... you keep professional flatterers on retainer, too? That's so cool. Someday I hope to be able to afford them. :)

Mike

[renegade]

You need to have Low people in High places!

[pesilat]

Originally posted by renegade
You need to have Low people in High places!

<g>

Actually, most of what I've heard about you has come from the Eskrima Digest. I'm sure you're aware of both the good and the bad that's been written there about you. Since I tend to ignore political crap, most everything about you that I've seen has been good.

I'm sure that some day, our paths will cross in person (I travel a fair bit and love training). I look forward to when they do.

Mike

[renegade]

I'll be teaching in Bloomington this fall. Maybe we can hook up.

I ignore what is written these days on E-Digest. If some one has a problem with me they should take it up face to face instead of being a TROLL and hide behind their screens with fake identities!

Remy always told me "The better you do, the more clowns will bark at you like dogs". Keeping that in mind, I must be doing good.

Tim

[pesilat]

Originally posted by renegade
I'll be teaching in Bloomington this fall. Maybe we can hook up.

Absolutely. Bloomington is only about an hour from me.

I ignore what is written these days on E-Digest. If some one has a problem with me they should take it up face to face with me instead of being a TROLL and hide behind their screens with fake identities!

LOL. Amen to that.

Remy always told me "The better you do, the more clowns will bark at you like dogs". Keeping that in mind, I must be doing good.

Tim

Yup. A guy once tried to tell me that my instructor was a fake. I said, "You know, you can talk all you want. But it's all a bunch of hot air. Only thing that matters to me is what I've seen and experienced first hand. When I train with other people in the same material, I see the same thing. Obviously, his knowledge came from somewhere. I know from my own fights that what he's teaching me is valid. I've seen the way he's treated by the people he claims as instructors ... they smile, greet him by name, hug him, and seem sincere about it. If he were a fake, that wouldn't happen. So you can take your talk elsewhere. I ain't buyin'."

The E-Digest, overall, is a good forum. It has its problems, as do all forums. I just keep reading, looking for those occasional pearls. And I keep posting when I think I have something worthwhile to contribute (and, all modesty aside, I think I've contributed a few pearls of my own over the years). Everything else is just hot air.

Definitely send me the info about your trip gig in Bloomington. My e-mail is sikal@yahoo.com

I look forward to meeting you.

Mike

[Acekicken]

It's Nice to see The renegade on Martial Arts
Planet =-)

[pinoy]

My instructer is Datu Tim Hartman
He is Grand Master Remy 's highets Tested Black Belt in The U.S.
(Modern Arnis )

And Now training in Balintawak Through Ted Buit
Who was The Man Chosen By Balintawak Grand Master
Ancion Bacon.

Im Not Familar With Bobby Taboda?
But am intrested in knowing The Concepts Behined
This Close Range F.M.A. or Corto Mano.

hi sirs! may I inquire if sir bob tabimina is different w/ bob Taboada :confused: both of balintawak arnis.

tnx :)

[Crucible]

Another reason that largo doesn't suit me personally is my eyesight. My depth perception sucks. So I'd much rather be in close where my timing relies on tactile input instead of visual.

Mike
Hehe, make note to self, if ever in a fight with pesilat throw rocks and keep poking at him with a big stick :D
Mike and everyone else,
can y'all describe the corto arnesal(might of spelled that wrong) and some basic corto strategies of balintawak? Like what parts of the punyo do you use, do you target just the head(with the punyo) or are there areas in the body as well, your use of elbows, ect. Just want to get a feel for what its like in close.
Oh and another question, Mike, what did you think of GM Taboada's abilities? In largo, medio, corto and emptyhand?
Thanks

[Crucible]

Anybody here ever meet or train with Tony Veeck in Germany?

[Moebius]

The last two seminars I attended with Guro Inosanto covered some Balintawak. Guro Faye has also had us work on this on several occasions.

Guro Inosanto spoke at some length about how there were 5 different branches within this community, and how none of them got along with each other.

He also mentioned that there were four systems that were very similar in tactical emphasis and training methodology, but were irrevocably at odds politically (I don't have my notes in front of me, so forgive me if this is wrong...). These were:

Balintawak
Doce Pares
Lapunti
Tres Hermanos (Tres Personas, maybe...not sure)


The drill we did made use of a cinco teros feeding pattern:

1. High Inward
2. High Backhand
3. Mid Inward
4. Mid Backhand
5. Straight Thrust

I know that there are more strikes in the Balintawak system, I suspect that this was for the confines of a seminar format.


The basic progression usually goes: (By stage)

They feed & you...
1. Supported Block
2. Supported Block & 1 Return - They receive this with a supported block
3. Supported Block - 1 Return - Trap the stick (their supported block) & strike (They trap with their live hand)
4. Supported Block - 1 Return - Trap the stick & strike - trap their hand & strike
5. Supported Block - 1 Return - Preempt their block & strike - trap their hand & strike
6. Supported Block - 1 Return - Preempt both their block and hand & strike

Each of the supported blocks are sweeps - tips up with a supporting hand either at the grip just above the weapon hand, on the wrist of the weapon hand, or with the forearm closer to the tip (akin to x-block).

The return we used was a supported/double handed stroke (as in Pekiti Tersia). If the sweep takes you across your body, the return will be a backhand throughout. If the sweep takes you to the weapon side of your body, the return will be an inward throughout.

I believe there are something like 13 different stages that this goes through, each becoming progressively more complex. The training really emphasizes a tactical awareness of likely obstructions, how to trap & continue hitting at medium-short range.


Each stage is trained with progressive footwork:

1. De Fundo (stationary - Right lead, Left lead)
2. Replacing (switching leads with each strike)
3. Circling
4. Walking (advancing, retreating)
5. Running (advancing, retreating)


When dealing with their live hand, there is a guideline for manipulating it, you want to end up on the outside of their live hand, away from the stick. To do this, there are typically three methods, each done with a side-step:

(For sake of simplicity, I've used JKD terms when neccessary)

1. Taun Sao/Lie Sao Trap (palm up, either dissolving or retracting slightly)
2. Lop Sao (grabbing & pulling from the outside of their live arm)
3. Waslik (As in Kali - to throw the arm away with a scooping motion)

Personally, I like this training because it's lively, fast-paced, quick to develop, and you learn how to minimize your blocking motions behind a vertical supported block as an entry. I especially like training students to advance directly into the fray, aggressively forward, as it messes with the opponent's sense of range (very intimidating) - this takes courage. I think that what I've seen of this system indicates that it has as much to offer as Doce Pares or Pekiti Tersia, with its own strengths and emphasis in training.

The down side is that supported blocks leave your hand and elbows open for hits, and you take some bruises on the forearm and pinky-side of your live hand until you get the placement right.

If any of you have other insights into this system's training methods, please share them, I'd be interested in learning more.

- Moe

[mike-a]

In my training in balintawak, the head instructor is a full instructor under Bobby Taboada as well as training with the Velez's in Cebu, so we get the best of both worlds.

To begin with we learn the basic 12 angles, controlled and full power, and the shadow form, kind of an extended amarra drill. After this we learn releases or disarms. There are 10 against a #1 strike, 10 against #2, 5 to deal with the various thrusts and 1 for the overhead shot (#12). Then we learn these empty hand against stick, and empty hand to empty hand (locking).

After this we do basic block and counter, which is a block and single counter strike to begin with. Then we have advanced block and counter. These are one or more techniques against each angle with several strikes and/or locking techniques. After this there are variations of basic block and counter:-

-attacker catches defenders counterstrike on the stick
-attacker catches defenders counterstrike on the hand
-attacker "smothers" defenders stick, stopping a counter
-defender has 1,2 or more strikes before counter strike
-defend counters with a thrust
-defend butts attackers hand
-variations of footwork

and so on.

At the same time we are learning "groups", which are pre-arranged attack and counter sequences to develop timing, sensitivity, evasive body movement, etc. I have only seen five of these groups, but there are several I am told.

We apply these in randon play, where one person attacks at random angles and the defender applies basic or advanced block and counter techniques, releases, or techniques from the groups. This build very quick reflex action.

After all of this there are empty hand techniques, and probably some other things, but I haven't been training long enough (only 18 months or so, in this style). It definately contrasts with other styles I train in, in that it is very focused.

[Pat OMalley]

The last two seminars I attended with Guro Inosanto covered some Balintawak. Guro Faye has also had us work on this on several occasions.

Guro Inosanto spoke at some length about how there were 5 different branches within this community, and how none of them got along with each other.

He also mentioned that there were four systems that were very similar in tactical emphasis and training methodology, but were irrevocably at odds politically (I don't have my notes in front of me, so forgive me if this is wrong...). These were:

Balintawak
Doce Pares
Lapunti
Tres Hermanos (Tres Personas, maybe...not sure)

Well as Balitawak and Lapunti were members of the orginal Doce Pares group, yes there would obviously be similarities, also GM Bobby Taboada of Balintawak and GM Ondo Caburnay of Lapunti Arnis De Abanico used to were freinds and used to work on the same truck together for the San Miguel Brewery I think there could be a good chance of them cross training and comapring notes. As for the so called 5 groups of Balintawak not getting on with each other, As they say "Don't beleive everything you read in the papers" You may find that many Masters who are supposed to be at war with each other are in fact long time freinds.

Best regards

Pat O'Malley

[Thomas]

Last night, I sat down with a tape of Boby Taboada's Balintawak techniques (to wrap up a good week of doing basic stick drills... this was our reward!). I love his tape (apparantly he has a series, this was volume 3) and love what he does. I found the concepts to fit nicely with what we do in Combat Hapkido... just an effective extension of those concepts to a stick and/or open hand. I'm hoping to learn lots more.

[Rich Parsons]

hi sirs! may I inquire if sir bob tabimina is different w/ bob Taboada :confused: both of balintawak arnis.

tnx :)

Bobby Tabimina trained in Cebu area with GM Bacon. I have never seen him move, but I would believe he would have something to offer.

They are separate people :)

[Rich Parsons]

The last two seminars I attended with Guro Inosanto covered some Balintawak. Guro Faye has also had us work on this on several occasions.

Guro Inosanto spoke at some length about how there were 5 different branches within this community, and how none of them got along with each other.

He also mentioned that there were four systems that were very similar in tactical emphasis and training methodology, but were irrevocably at odds politically (I don't have my notes in front of me, so forgive me if this is wrong...). These were:

Balintawak
Doce Pares
Lapunti
Tres Hermanos (Tres Personas, maybe...not sure)

<cut>

- Moe

Moe, I believe the connection between Guro Inosanto and Balintawak is with Ising Atillio. Ising trained with his father and others who trained under and with GM Bacon.

[Pat OMalley]

Moe, I believe the connection between Guro Inosanto and Balintawak is with Ising Atillio. Ising trained with his father and others who trained under and with GM Bacon. I think you may find that since Inosanto took a few lessons with GM Taboada this is were the connection is, up until then Inosanto never showed Balintawak.

regards

Pat

[Pat OMalley]

He also mentioned that there were four systems that were very similar in tactical emphasis and training methodology, but were irrevocably at odds politically (I don't have my notes in front of me, so forgive me if this is wrong...). These were:

Balintawak
Doce Pares
Lapunti
Tres Hermanos (Tres Personas, maybe...not sure)

Hi Moe,
Firstly it is Tres Personas.
And if the above groups are at odds would it not seem strange that one GM from one group arranged my wedding, and another attended, and the 3rd was sitting having drinks with the first two and laughing when I walked in the living room of on of the GM's for a social visit. As I said before, dont beleive the hype.

No offence to Inosanto bu the man has never been to the Philippines and is only quoting rumours that make for good publicity in the newspapers. You may find that there are many more than four systems that are similar in tactical emphasis and training methodology I know I have found many more that are similar as opposed to being different.

regards

Pat

[pesilat]

I think you may find that since Inosanto took a few lessons with GM Taboada this is were the connection is, up until then Inosanto never showed Balintawak.

regards

Pat

I believe Moe was right that Guro Dan has trained with Ising Atillo. The first time I saw Guro Dan bring anything out of Balintawak, he was talking about Atillo and the 12 angles he was teaching certainly weren't Taboada's.

Mike

[Rich Parsons]

I think you may find that since Inosanto took a few lessons with GM Taboada this is were the connection is, up until then Inosanto never showed Balintawak.

regards

Pat


Pat,

I do not doubt that Guro Inosanto has trained with GM Taboada. I also know that one of Inosanto's full instructors, also trains with Manong Ted Buot as well. So there could other influence as well. Inever meant to imply it was exclusive, only that the most recent influence was Atillio as he was staying in the area, and also training with Guro Inosanto.

[Rich Parsons]

Hi Moe,
Firstly it is Tres Personas.
And if the above groups are at odds would it not seem strange that one GM from one group arranged my wedding, and another attended, and the 3rd was sitting having drinks with the first two and laughing when I walked in the living room of on of the GM's for a social visit. As I said before, dont beleive the hype.

No offence to Inosanto bu the man has never been to the Philippines and is only quoting rumours that make for good publicity in the newspapers. You may find that there are many more than four systems that are similar in tactical emphasis and training methodology I know I have found many more that are similar as opposed to being different.

regards

Pat


Pat,

I thought Tres Persona's was the system from GM Timor Maranga, a student of GM Ancion Bacon. Not that Maranga did not have his style, before and during his training.

The Groups in Balintawak I know about are

Ted Buot - The Group I am affliated with
Jose Villasin - Who had
--------Pilo Vilez and Bobby Taboada. (* Not Taboada also trained with Bacon from other posts on others sites. *)
--------Don Lopez who taught Mike Zimmer
Timor Maranga - His system Tres Personas
--------Remy Presas Trained with Maranga as well as Moncal and Bacon.
Toto Moncal - Not sure of his organizations name.
--------As stated above Remy Presas Started his Balintawk training here. Both were left handers.
Delphin Lopez - Students in the PI
Remy Presas - Modern Arnis - Presas Family and Balintawak

And Recently Ising Atillio also is teaching Balintawak. His site his a different take on who taught who, so I will not go into the politics here.

As to the wedding, Congratulations (* though late *), it does nto surprise me that the top GM's would be friends in most cases. Manong Ted Buot tells stories of him and Anciong Bacon going to Doces Pares events and club, and having no problems. The issues between the clubs were the students of the students in most cases. :)

Peace


(* PS: I tried indenting, but spaces would not take. Trying "-" now *)

[mike-a]

According to Bobby (Taboada) last year, Dan has done some training with him.

Also Casilla Gracialas Boggs (probably badly spelt!), who trained for a long time with Dan (and Angel Cabales and possibly Leo Giron as well) has trained with Bobby as well, possibly to "completion of the art" level. (Not positive on the level though)

[Pat OMalley]

Pat,

I do not doubt that Guro Inosanto has trained with GM Taboada. I also know that one of Inosanto's full instructors, also trains with Manong Ted Buot as well. So there could other influence as well. Inever meant to imply it was exclusive, only that the most recent influence was Atillio as he was staying in the area, and also training with Guro Inosanto.No implication was meant, I just know that Guro Dan trained with Bobby Taboada back in the early/mid 90's, I found this out during a breif conversation with GM Taboada when I was putting together the one off Souveneer Arnisador Magazine which feature many top (not all) instructors of the FMA in the mid 90's. I am sure GM Atillio showed Dan some good stuff too and maybe he likes to show GM Atillio's application of Balintawak. Either or either I am sure the recipients will not be dissapointed with what they see. After all as one late great GM used to say "it's all the same" :D

I believe Moe was right that Guro Dan has trained with Ising Atillo. The first time I saw Guro Dan bring anything out of Balintawak, he was talking about Atillo and the 12 angles he was teaching certainly weren't Taboada's.I have no doubt Guro Dan has trained with GM Ising, all I was saying that this was not his first encounter with Balintawak. As a matter of fact if we look further back to the 60's & 70's we will find he also came across it without even knowing it via the late great GM Presas and his Modern Arnis system which we have to admit was heavily influenced by Balintawak, after all the late GM Presas was also a former student of the Balintawak group too.

I know there may be slight differences in the different groups, but lets look at it closer than that. There are more similarities than differnces for us to really say that each of the groups are really seperate. They just have a different slant and approach on the same system. I love all of them because they are all the same, but at the same time they show it in a different light.

Best regards

Pat

[Rich Parsons]

No implication was meant, I just know that Guro Dan trained with Bobby Taboada back in the early/mid 90's, I found this out during a breif conversation with GM Taboada when I was putting together the one off Souveneer Arnisador Magazine which feature many top (not all) instructors of the FMA in the mid 90's. I am sure GM Atillio showed Dan some good stuff too and maybe he likes to show GM Atillio's application of Balintawak. Either or either I am sure the recipients will not be dissapointed with what they see. After all as one late great GM used to say "it's all the same" :D

I have no doubt Guro Dan has trained with GM Ising, all I was saying that this was not his first encounter with Balintawak. As a matter of fact if we look further back to the 60's & 70's we will find he also came across it without even knowing it via the late great GM Presas and his Modern Arnis system which we have to admit was heavily influenced by Balintawak, after all the late GM Presas was also a former student of the Balintawak group too.

I know there may be slight differences in the different groups, but lets look at it closer than that. There are more similarities than differnces for us to really say that each of the groups are really seperate. They just have a different slant and approach on the same system. I love all of them because they are all the same, but at the same time they show it in a different light.

Best regards

Pat

Pat everything you say her is true. :)

Dan I has much experience and exposure. I am sure he has showed some of Bobby's stuff as well.

They are different but close to the same.

Peace