What an MA instructor is for...

[Jim]

I think that the role has changed for the MA instructor (or maybe it was always the same but we didn't know it). Initially it was thought that the instructor was there to tell you everything and be invincible and invulnerable as well as being an endless well of MA and self defence knowledge but I believe that this has changed to be more of a coaching role than a dictating role.

This is interesting when you consider that an instructor cannot grade higher than (or equal to) the grade they currently hold. In effect this is saying that you cannot teach/train someone to be a better fighter/MAist than yourself, which in many cases just isn't true.

Looking at western boxing coaches for an example you can see that usually these people are certainly in much worse physical shape than the fighter they're training but due to their knowledge of their art they are the one 'calling the shots'. Can't this be held to be true of the MAist?

I think that a lot of this (belts, physical shape of the trainer, training hall/gym, etc.) is external glamour to attract new students. A necessary evil and way of ensuring that they don't become extinct, but perhaps an evil none the less.

As a beginner would you rather be trained by an instructor that looked like Bruce Lee or Jim Belushi?

What am I rambling on about? It's just that I believe that the role for instructors is different now because the general population has changed and become more educated overall than they were thirty years ago. To survive and be prolific as an instructor you need to ensure that you are not turning into a dinosaur and are always open to change. Not necessarily just your style of combat but also your style of teaching.

(Who says I can't post a serious topic?)

[KarateKid1975]

I seen many different instructors in my short time in MA. Both my TSD instructor, and my TKD instructor are both in good shape. They both still train. I also seen, what looked to be outta shape instructors, but I wouldn't dare "try" them. There's also those who just don't care. They are fat, outta shape, or just in it for the money. I think you have to look at their experience, and technique, rather than what shape they are in.

My TSD instructor always said that he WANTED his students better than him. If he can train them to be better, than he was happy.

[TkdWarrior]

well fatty doesn't mean that u can't fight...
my teacher had couple of students whom he made better(or almost) fighters/sparrers than he is but he still thinks they r missing somethings...
rite now my teacher is pretty outta shape(95 kgs is good enuff)
but i havn't seen his speed dropped or his power(he hits more hard nowdays)
from last 1 yr i m searching for a way to stop my teacher, n frankly i just can't find a way for him...
-TkdWarrior-

[darlph]

Nice thought Jim, have you notice for "exercise" "focus" "confidence" "cardio-fitness" is touted more now than before? "Self defense" is often added to the package if that is what the student is looking for. Alot of people watch the movies and believe they're going to be that good to defend themselves.
When I started some 20+ years ago it was for body and mind.
When I came back, it was exercise.

[pgm316]

Good post Jim, most people do expect their teacher to have ability, but like you say, is it more important to have one with knowledge even if the ability is very low. I would probably say yes.

The boxing trainers often have very low ability which isn't important because the boxer will have various sparring partners when it comes to testing what they've learnt.

Theres always been too much ego and BS with martial arts (no revelation) and its always "thought" the only ones that know there stuff are the Blackbelts. But it isn't just the Blackbelts with knowledge, if it is the Blackbelts at all :p

[Sc0tsg1t]

Good point Jim,

shame certain styles/instructors feel they have to have this invincible 'aura' around their names. Maybe they feel that if they lose the tag then they lose their mystique and as a result their students. It is afterall mostly their livlihood they are looking after in this commercial age.

As for black belts having the most knowledge, most I know will happily admit that the more they have studied the less they know. When I received mine many moons ago I remember feeling a bit disheartened as it sunk in that my martial knowledge was lacking. That is when the true journey for students and especially instructors begins. If the ego permits it.:p

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Jim
I think that the role has changed for the MA instructor (or maybe it was always the same but we didn't know it). Initially it was thought that the instructor was there to tell you everything and be invincible and invulnerable as well as being an endless well of MA and self defence knowledge but I believe that this has changed to be more of a coaching role than a dictating role.

Personally, I think it was this way for a long time. But then people started competing against each other in the marketplace and started adding the mystique of invincibility as a marketing tool.

This is interesting when you consider that an instructor cannot grade higher than (or equal to) the grade they currently hold. In effect this is saying that you cannot teach/train someone to be a better fighter/MAist than yourself, which in many cases just isn't true.

You're very right. It is possible to train someone to be a better fighter/teacher than I am. In fact, as an instructor, I feel it's my duty to try to do just that.

However, once they're better than me, I can't really assess their rank, so can't accurately judge where to promote them to.

With this in mind, I could understand being allowed to promote to one rank above myself to signify that the student has surpassed me. But it makes more sense to, at that point, take the student to my instructor for his promotion.

But, on the flip side of this argument is this: as an active and training martial artist, I improve every day. It'd be virtually impossible for a student to actually catch up with me and surpass me simply because of the headstart I have and the fact that I'm constantly striving to improve myself. So I don't really think this is much of an issue.

I think I just played "devil's advocate" to myself - man, it's good to be a Gemini ;)

Mike

[Cain]

Well, as a student, I would find it strange that my instructor was in a worse shape than me, I don't specifically mean shape but it can mean not able to push himself as much as myself or not as good as I am... that sort of....

well, it really does'nt matter much to me 'cause my instructor can kick my a$$ in just about everything :D

Or maybe that's because I stink :D

|Cain|

PS - I had to push myself REALLY hard to type this Jim - Good post :D

[morphus]

Good post Jim!

I think there must be room for both types of instructor, you can learn something from just about anyone anyway, even if it's the smallest piece of information.

I recently met( i did some gardening work fo him) a wu shu Grandmaster and to look at him you wouldn't know, the wealth of knowledge he contained is quite unbeleavable - quite elderly(in his late 70's) and not a fit man, just talking(and we talk for hours) with him i have learned some, he occasionally shows me simple techniques.

You can find teachers/instructors in the most surprising ways/places.

Having more than one source of instruction and information can't be a bad thing!

[Jim]

Further to this (or maybe it should be in another thread) I have been pushing for the past 3 years to have our grading system changed to have only white, brown and black as graded belts.

I always have been voted out regarding this by the other directors as they feel that there needs to be little 'waypoints' to show a student that he/she is progressing. I agree and also disagree (who needs to be a Gemini...) as I can see that it can be disheartening to be training for 4-6 years and still be a 'white belt' but my argument has been that we don't accept juniors and mature-age students should be grown up enough to not need token gestures to show their progression.

In your system would you be happy enough with this kind of grading system, ie. a white belt 'accepted' rank until you proved to be proficient enough to be graded a brown as a diploma then full black as a degree after 8-12 years?

[Andy Murray]

Hi Jim,

That's a tough one.

I'd have to say either belts are important or they're not. That is.... you have a belt system, or you don't have a belt system.

I don't know anyone who is going to join a MA class who will instantly understand the 'Belt just holds your trouser's up' philosophy.

I guess it depends on what you, the instructor wants, the Belt system gives you the opportunity to gradually chip away at peoples mentality, while giving them something to work for.

I did discuss doing away with the ranking system we have with my second, but we elected not to confuse people in the end.

Interesting isn't it.

You doing Judo comes up in a conversation, and the first question that'll come up, is either what Belt are you, or have you ever used it.

If you're in the position of having that BB, then you can easily forget how important it once was as a goal, however shallow you know feel that to have been. If you don't have it yet then.........

Hope I'm on track with all that Jim.

Got me thinking.

Cheers Mate.

[darlph]

Belts are always a touchy subject. When I started we had the basic 4 ie white , green, brown, black, that was how the Instructor was taught. In the system I am in now, I have made it thru the 10. {1st Dan. Hopefully, testing for 2nd in the fall.} I have heard stories where other schools charge for a belt and give you apiece of tape around your belt. When you get the next color you get a used one from a previous student. It sets the hierarchy of the school. Would you being a new student ask another new student about a technique you both are having trouble understanding, or, ask someone who you can tell has been there a while because the belt helps to identify?
The story I was told was the color of the belt was the progression of your training, the colors changed as it aged and finally fell off. White to tan to green to icky brown to black and rotted.
Every school and system is different. It would be nice to see all one color gi not designated by the color of the belt. But as I watched the sweat pour off the students testing today doing their best for their next belt.........well, it's nice to have a "symbol" of what you have accomplished. And the pride in their eyes.
It would be a better world if people wouldn't judge you by the belt but by the merit of your accomplishments and self. I still like to go to events with other styles in attendence and no belts. Of course, you still have the bad attitudes who like to flaunt their acheivements, but, you always get some bad apples in everything.
And Andy's right about the hold your pants up part. You don't need a belt to defend yourself or train or drink tea, or have fun or like the guy in Sidekicks said, "Don't need belt to break bricks." I could go either way on the belt issue. I think the pros and cons balance each other respectfully.
Sorry about the ramble.

[darlph]

Well, that was on a branch of the original subject. Sorry.
Jim said the role has changed for the Ma Instructor, and i believe it has. To survive in a market where good schools are, you have to make choices about how and who you teach. Plus you have to adapt and acquire new skills ands knowledge to survive in the business.
I watch my instructor teach class, train, be the janitor, attend learning seminars, do paperwork, run errands, a friend, ectera. The main thing is, he has an open mind for his students. He has been a mentor, and counselor for many of us. If he had stuck with the old traditional ways, he would be regarded as unapproachable.
Because he was limited to bring his students to 2nd Dan he trained with another master to be able to let his students rise above that to 4th. We only have 2nds right now. And a blended system of TKD.
I believe anybody has some knowledge to enlighten others. But I also believe any instructor or individual teaching anything should always be reaching for new information and ideas to not stagnate but to grow. I think that's why some traditionalists are not advancing as well in sparring competitons. No cut intended, I respect all MA but in watching matches...........
Rereading pesilat I agree teaching someone better than you, you can't accurately rank, but isn't that what we strive for? To make the next group better?

[Telsun]

On the subject of instructors:
Personally I would train under anyone that has something of value to teach, regardless of what shape they are in. To me it is more about the knowledge than their physical ability. Take a look at the old masters they are not as physically fit as they were, yet people flock to them to obtain knowledge.
However to the new impressionable student it would probably be better to look and be healthy. The public paint a picture of what they expect to see and if they don't see it...........

And the belt system. To me a 3 belt system seems appealling, but then I have my black belt and having been training a fair few years now. I am not sure but I think that the Jun-do-kan has just adopted a 3 belt system, atleast in the UK. It might be worth contacting the Australian branch to see if they have done the same and find out their reasoning.
On the flip side. I know that the junior grades and even some of the senior grades use the next grade as a short term goal. Take that goal away and what have they got to strive for? Goals need to be set and achieved to keep most people motivated.
As the multiple belt system is internationally recognised by the public and martial artists alike I think that maybe it should be retained. Why change what has been excepted as the norm? Just assure that each belt achieved is of a high standard. Make the duration between grades longer if that helps. The lower grades at our dojo grade about every 6months or so. Longer if Sensei does not think that they are ready.