A relationship between point fighting and street fighting?

[hongkongfuey]

Just read your article Andy. Really enjoyed it and I fully agree with what you say.

Points fighting is a necessary training method to a well rounded martial artist, but is not the full shilling. However it does build up speed, reflexes and timing which you cannot really argue with. That combined with some traditional training will make a devistating street fighter.

[Andy Murray]

Hi James,

I'm glad you got something from it, and I know we have shared some experience of points fighting.

I have no reality delusions as to points, but I know you have experienced that electric 'switch-on' I was talking about.

Article. (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=106)

[Cain]

Nice article Andy, I still remember your words before you wrote the article :D

In fact.......that flippin does it........yer all gettin a bloomin article on this very subject!
Gnash! gnash! grind! gnash!

:D

Cheers,

|Cain|

[dredleviathan]

Hi Andy,

Some interesting thoughts in your article in regard to the attributes that this kind of training develops. However like you state at the end you are only concentrating on the positive elements.

The problem for us all no matter in which way we currently train is that there is no formula by which we can clearly state how training relates to practice (i.e. a street confrontation).

We can't say: A+B+C+D=E

Where A is understanding fighting concepts. B is hours of training. C is your level of conditioning. D is competition experience and E is your successful street outcome. We, none of us, can claim to have the correct forumla. In fact its even almost impossible to claim to cover every element that can make up the final formula for your particular encounter (was in raining, were you on grass or concrete, was the attacker armed, were you drunk, was the attakcer on drugs/insane, etc etc the possibilites are endless).

You can only imagine the training you woudl have to do to prepare for each of these :D

Whilst I think you are right that points fighting does train certain essential attributes it does ignore some pretty important ones that will be essential if you are unlucky enough to have to protect yourself against an attacker. The more pratice you put in at the 'live' end of the scale the more likely you are able to be to judge what will and won't be successful.

Martial training can only narrow the odds. Unfortunately there is a pretty hefty element of X involved. Where X is nothing other than pure damned luck.

I think your final sentence summed it all up well "so go get yourself hit properly, and stop playing tag!"

[dredleviathan]

By the way I just wanted to state that I'm not one of these evangelical, born-again "Street" martial artists.

In fact I tend to wince everytime I hear someone introduce a technique with the old "when you're on the street" line.

I consider my main background to be traditional northern style Kung-Fu as that's where I spent the most time. But, to be honest with you my Sifu couldn't deal it out in sparring let alone on the street. His form was incredicle and I truly wish I coudl move like he did. In the end though I had to face the fact that the style wasn't for me. That's not to say that I don't miss alot of the training or that some of the guys in it aren't brilliant... to use a real MA'ism - my path just took a different direction.

My current training is from a JKD concepts angle and includes Thai, Grappling and Kali. Its still not the ultimate art either... but I can feel that I have progressed further in a much shorter space of time. Of course there was some pretty good foundations to build on.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by dredleviathan
Hi Andy,

1/Some interesting thoughts in your article in regard to the attributes that this kind of training develops. However like you state at the end you are only concentrating on the positive elements.

2/The problem for us all no matter in which way we currently train is that there is no formula by which we can clearly state how training relates to practice (i.e. a street confrontation).


3/Whilst I think you are right that points fighting does train certain essential attributes it does ignore some pretty important ones that will be essential if you are unlucky enough to have to protect yourself against an attacker.

4/I think your final sentence summed it all up well "so go get yourself hit properly, and stop playing tag!"

Hi Dredleviathan,

Thanks for taking the time to read the article. Just to respond and clarify a little.

1/

I feel I have personally discarded the Negative aspects, so there was no real need to comment on those. It's all to easy to find Negative comment on practically any subject you care to name.

2/

Absolutely. Points does exist in my own personal formula, as a small (x) somewhere. Mostly the bit of the equation which deals with observation of the opponent.

3/

As do all Sporting MA's some Traditional, and some not so Traditional ones.

4/

The last bit is an option that many Sporting Martial Artists sadly never take.

The whole idea for the article evolved from a thread here, on the Sporting Martial Arts forum, entitled 'Ring to Street'. You'll find more of my insane rambling there.



:D

[Jim]

It's all to easy to find Negative comment on practically any subject you care to name.

There is not.

[Cain]

Oh and I like the last para :D

oh and dredleviathan this may be the answer to your post :D

I have commented only on the positive aspects of point fighting, and the benefits I feel I have gained. I have not mentioned the negative points, so go get yourself hit properly, and stop playing tag!

|Cain|

[dredleviathan]

Hi All,

Just wanted to say that I liked Andy's article alot. It did what a good article should and made me think about his point of view and evaluate my own stance on that particular subject.

My main point about ignoring the negative aspects was really that in by doing so the article lacked a roundness. Perhaps this stems back to the way I was asked to write at university but even when I was trying to argue for one particular view I always had to consider the opposite or diverging view. A controversial argument is good as it stimulates debate but in my opinion depth is added by considering varying angles in making your point.

It might have been that I missed this in Andy's (as he put it) "insane rambling" elsewhere. :)

In fact thinking about it, it is this kind of balanced view that I feel is missing from many MA related publications especially the print magazines.

[Andy Murray]

Well i've been accused of being too well-rounded 'physically' on this forum by Cain, so I might as well aim to be more well rounded when I attempt to write an article in future.
I wasn't clever enough to go to College, let alone Uni :(

Proof reader (you know who you are), you're sacked ;)

[hongkongfuey]

I wasn't clever enough to go to College, let alone Uni

I gave up on my maths degree after taking 6 months to prove 1+1 = 2 (at least I got it right!). The most useful thing I learned was being able to find my way home after 10 pints, and how to cook pot noodle.

I liked the slightly controversial nature of the article as it threw open the ideas for open debate on the forum. I did feel the article primarily considered the positive aspects of points fighting primarily, but did also qualify them by saying 'go get yourself hit properly, and stop playing tag!'.

I have heard a lot of critisism of points fighting over the years, and it was good to hear someone voice some of the thoughts on it that I have also had since leaving 'the competition circuit'.

I would say that points fighting is a valid training method that should be complemented with others methods that suit the individual person practising martial arts. What works for me will not necessarily work for you

[Cain]

Well i've been accused of being too well-rounded 'physically' on this forum by Cain

Whoops! Take it easy there Andy, I was just jokin' , don't take it too seriously, I actually respect many people here on this forum and I know that 99.99% people in here are much better martial artists than me, and I got a lot less stamina or fitness level unlike most of you guys includin' you, and I respect your opinions by reading your posts in the forum

It was just a joke!

|Cain|

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by cain_charlie


Whoops! Take it easy there Andy, I was just jokin' , don't take it too seriously, It was just a joke!

|Cain|

Joking? Damn,
but the killer 'Stavit' hitmen armed with poison tipped explosive cricket bats are on their way to Bombay as we speak. They have orders to bring back your malnourished corpse, or an authentic Vindaloo Masala Biryani. Get in the kitchen and start cooking quick :D

Don't sweat it. I lurv you guys :D

I also thrive on criticism, as it's a great way to improve!

Thanks all, I'll do better next time!

[Cain]

LOL! That's ok dude

Taliking of thriving on criticism, I gotta improve my underweight probs :woo:

|Cain|

[Andy Murray]

If you feel good, then you're not underweight Cain.

I was just teasing you!

We can't all have a perfect physique like Pavarotti after all.

[Cain]

We can't all have a perfect physique like Pavarotti after all.

We can't????

WAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!

Yep I see your point :D

And no I an pretty pround of the strength of my stomach, my front thrust kick and my backfist......hmm......gives me an idea for another thrad which will come out in about 6 hrs :D

Great article

Cheers,

|Cain|

[dredleviathan]

I wasn't clever enough to go to College, let alone Uni

I'm telling you mate I ain't no genius either. I spent the majority of 3 years wondering what people were talking about and perfecting my home brew.

The main product of a university education = huge debt, malnourishment, loss of millions of brain cells through alcohol poisoning and being a smart arse!

The were some plus points admittedly and the penecillin has pretty much cleared up the by-products of them now ;)

I'm surprised that none of you pointed our that I haven't written an article myself - proofs in the pudding innit. With that in mind perhaps I should pull my head in and shut up with my critical theory.

Dred

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by dredleviathan


I'm surprised that none of you pointed our that I haven't written an article myself - proofs in the pudding innit. With that in mind perhaps I should pull my head in and shut up with my critical theory.

Dred

That would have been a cheap shot.

At the end of the day, when you write, you have to expect people to read. While you strive to control the readers reaction with your words, it's impossible to cover all the angles.

The Mod's here have all contributed articles, not because we consider ourselves to be any kind of authority on anything, but to provoke thought amongst the members. None of us, with the possible exception of Mike Casto are professional writers, but by prostrating our literacy in this manner, we pave the way for other members to write.

There are books out there written by all sorts of famous people, but where else can you look into the thoughts of the Martial Artist that exists in Suburbia?

Use it or lose it?

One thing I did mention in the article was an important lesson that I learned. When I mentioned the 'turning point', I'd had a conversation with my coach.
I said, "look I'm getting fed up getting beaten all the time".
He said "There is no such thing as defeat"
I said "It sure feels like there is"
He said " There is no such thing as defeat if you learn from it"

I learned that I wasn't defeated, unless I couldn't work out a reason for it. Learning why made me correct myself in many ways.

There were other allegories in the article!

[Spike]

Umm, good article, most of the points I was going to make have been said already so I`ll just be content with doffing my cap a little.

[oneil357]

nice article andy i have a story to support your article, i am a product of the street i was in my fair share of confrontations here in upstate ny finding myself to be very good at it, one day i met a guy from chicago and we started talking he was a blckbelt in 3 different styles as we became friends he showed me all his certificites and more then 3 dozen trophes i was very interested by this, one day we were walking thru the mall and i found myself in a situation that was unavoidable, as the confrontation unfolded i found my martial arts "god" unwilling to participate after suffering a broken nose and more then a few bruises i was compeled to find out why he didnt help me? he proceded to tell me he has never been in a fight .WTF? outside of a tournament i was speachless!!! from that point on i have studied the arts and have also found that my begining as a street fighter has givin me a huge advantage in the arts, i believe it all comes down to PAIN .all to often i run into martial artist who never really get to enjoy the extent of pain that can be inflicted by a adversary who isnt trying to score points. thank you for your time, oneil

"violence can only be stopped by greater violence" bruce lee

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by oneil357
nice article andy i have a story to support your article, i am a product of the street i was in my fair share of confrontations here in upstate ny finding myself to be very good at it, one day i met a guy from chicago and we started talking he was a blckbelt in 3 different styles as we became friends he showed me all his certificites and more then 3 dozen trophes i was very interested by this, one day we were walking thru the mall and i found myself in a situation that was unavoidable, as the confrontation unfolded i found my martial arts "god" unwilling to participate after suffering a broken nose and more then a few bruises i was compeled to find out why he didnt help me? he proceded to tell me he has never been in a fight .WTF? outside of a tournament i was speachless!!! from that point on i have studied the arts and have also found that my begining as a street fighter has givin me a huge advantage in the arts, i believe it all comes down to PAIN .all to often i run into martial artist who never really get to enjoy the extent of pain that can be inflicted by a adversary who isnt trying to score points. thank you for your time, oneil

"violence can only be stopped by greater violence" bruce lee

Can't help but feel you're lecturing in some way.

Once again, the article was focussed on the positive aspects to be drawn from points matches.

As to reality, I've got far too many real life experiences to draw on.

Yes, there are people with Trophy's and Black Belts who can't fight. We all know that. I was only trying to extract the good.

[Freeform]

Can't help but feel your going round in a big circle Andy, and I just noticed I never said at the time of reading,

'Good article, Andy. :D'

I agree with most of your points and see where you coming from and am willing to be convinced of the few I do not.

i am a product of the street

Bit of a thug then ;) j/k

[Andy Murray]

Hmm, just read back through the article again myself, and it's a bit clumsy.

Jumps about a bit too much and doesn't really clear up many points.

I know what I meant to say in my head, but it doesn't really come across as I intended.

What do you mean by 'going round in a circle' Freeform?

[Freeform]

Big Circle, not the article Andy but having to explain it purpose, again, and again, and again.....

Must feel a bit monotonus!

Col

[Thomas]

I liked the article and my favorite part is the last bit about getting hit proper.

I see the benefits of sparring and know tat I need more and more work (lifelong) on it. We hope in our school to do sparring under different situations and rules to try to be as ready as possible for a "real" encounter. It is fascinating to see students take a good hit for the first time. Some drop and are finished. Some get mad and lose control. The good ones usually step back, condcentrate and fight seriously. It's this batch that usually come up after cl;ass looking for advice.

Nice article... I'll re-read it later as well.

[shotokanwarrior]

Martial training can only narrow the odds. Unfortunately there is a pretty hefty element of X involved. Where X is nothing other than pure damned luck.

This is why I think versatility is more important than either skill or strength. 1) If you can do somethig they don't know how to deal with, you can win the fight and 2) People with immense skill or strength can still get themselves in deep do-do. Like that guy Varelans.

[WVNicholson]

Hi James,

I'm glad you got something from it, and I know we have shared some experience of points fighting.

I have no reality delusions as to points, but I know you have experienced that electric 'switch-on' I was talking about.

Article. (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=106)

Where is the article now? The link to the article in an earlier post is dead,
William

[headbutt]

Hi all, this is only my second post/reply here. That was an outstanding article! I think a lot of martial artists’ understand point fighting's shortcomings when compared to other types of combative martial sports, but are too quick to point them out without any thought about them being positive in any way.

Hopefully an article like this will help some to look at this type of competition differently.