Legs...

[c_storm51]

Just a quick question! I'm training in TKD right now and there is obviously a lot of leg work involved. I feel that my upper body is not too bad (strength and speed), but my legs definitely need work. I'm a little dubious about using weights, so what exercises would anyone recommend for home that would build muscle strength, endurance and ultimately control. I'm doing regular stretches but I'm looking for more speed, power and control....the only exercises I can think of are lunges and squats - are there any others?

Any thoughts welcome...!

Cheers

[Joe karate]

Squats will build a lot of power in your legs, stick to the basics and squat.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Joe karate
Squats will build a lot of power in your legs, stick to the basics and squat.


........... and then squat some more :D

[Bon]

Plyometric exercises, although they reccomend you squat twice your body weight before doing any.

Using weights won't slow you down, and if you have an easy time adding muscle, everyone would be big. :D

[Labatt]

Yoda. c_storm asked if you were weaker in your lower body.

What if you were Stronger in your lower body than your upper?

[YODA]

Originally posted by Labatt
Yoda. c_storm asked if you were weaker in your lower body.

What if you were Stronger in your lower body than your upper?

.... you would be normal.

[pgm316]

Squat with weights! :)

I developed a lot more strength after using weights, every skinny person you talk to will tell you how slow and stiff you will be, but I'm better if anything...........

[c_storm51]

Thanks! Looks like I'll be sticking to squats, then! I think I'll start without weights and add as I see fit....thanks. I'm quite wirey so I was a little bothered about slowing myself down, but if you've found it positive, pgm, I'll give it a bash!

Cheers

[pgm316]

It worked for me, but I'd check out Yoda's advice and links for the more scientific approaches!

In general you will get a lot of benefits using weights that you won't get from standard body weight exercises. Its just a case of training like an athlete instead of a traditional martial artist.

[Mike Flanagan]

Why are you dubious about weights. The only answer I can think of is the idea of being bulky 'slowing you down', which is myth, unless perhaps you take it to extremes. Weight training develops your fast twitch muscle fibres, cardiovascular exercises focuses more on slow twitch fibres (think how muscular 100 metre sprinters are compared to marathon runners). So if you want to be fast then your training regime should be geared more towards weight training than to cardiovascular.

Flexibility shouldn't be a problem either, as long you work on stretching as well as weights. TKD places substantial stress on the legs. Without sufficient strength to support the joints (ankles, knees and hips), you're probably just storing up problems for the future.

When it comes to squats, bear in mind that bending the knee to less than 90 degrees while it is under load (ie. your own body weight or some other resistance) will almost certainly damage the knee. Some research suggests that anything less than 120 degrees will cause damage.

So, IMO, get weight training and supplement it with stretching and cardiovascular exercise.

Mike

[TkdWarrior]

Just a quick question! I'm training in TKD right now and there is obviously a lot of leg work involved. I feel that my upper body is not too bad (strength and speed), but my legs definitely need work
this tells me that u need lots of footwork training...not more
first basically u hav spent most of time using ur legs for walking not for other things like kicking/footwork, u don't feel like u hav no power in ur lower body...
naturally(even unnaturally ;)) ur lowerbody will be stronger than ur upper body.... as yoda said "u'll be normal"
sooooo
1. more footwork
2. more kicking(yup high only, jacka$ses kick low ;))
3. more footwork
4. low stances with footwork

-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

on second thought i just remembered that a$ses kick high :D ROFLMAO.....
-TkdWarrior-

[c_storm51]

The main reason I am slightly wary about weights is the lack of knowledge regarding what is necessary. I've always done things like circuit training and more recently TKD, so it's only the muscles that I've developed 'naturally'. I see what you're saying TkdWarrior - it makes sense - I've never been much into Football or anything leg oriented - it's just a matter of getting used to using my muscles in a different way. I appreciate the advise...

[iolair]

I find the following helpful...

1) Squat (using heavy barbell, though dumbbells are easier!). 2 seconds on up motion, 1 seconds on down motion, using a weight where I can manage 6-12 reps.

2) Squats to jump (i.e. jumping up from squat position) using dumbbells with moderate weights. Motion as fast as possible while retaining control. Repeat about 10-20 times.

3) Depth Jumps. Jump off a box about 30 to 80cm high (start off with a small one and build up!). As soon as you land, bend your legs and jump up again as high as you can.

4) Leg Curl, using a machine (or bench with leg curl attachment). This helps balance the squat muscle buildup, and can also add power to hook kick and reverse roundhouse.

5) High straight kicks with ankle weights. You can get ankle weights that strap round your ankle, with a weight usually in the range 1 pound (454g) up to 1 kilogram (2.2lbs). I use these with high straight rising kicks to the front and to the side.

Also, building muscle will slow you down ONLY IF you don't stretch. You need to stretch your legs thoroughly after a workout using them. If you use weights AND stretching, both your leg strength AND flexibility will improve.

[iolair]

Originally posted by c_storm51
The main reason I am slightly wary about weights is the lack of knowledge regarding what is necessary. I've always done things like circuit training and more recently TKD, so it's only the muscles that I've developed 'naturally'. I see what you're saying TkdWarrior - it makes sense - I've never been much into Football or anything leg oriented - it's just a matter of getting used to using my muscles in a different way. I appreciate the advise...
The only reason to be cautious is if your bones are still developing (i.e. if you're younger than 18). Otherwise you will get huge benefits from weight training, provided
1) Your diet is OK (enough protein, calcium etc)
2) You are doing it right (learn your weights techniques in a reputable gym with an instructor, even if you plan to only practice them alone).

[pgm316]

Well said iolair! :)

[c_storm51]

Right! Well that settles that then! I'm at university right now so I can get advise from the sports centre to make sure I'm doing everything correctly, but I'll start putting that regime in place asap iolair...:D

[pgm316]

Ask university bods and let us know what their verdict is. If they know there stuff, and I'm sure they do, they'll come up with a good training regime tailored for you!

[c_storm51]

Will report back....!

[Tosh]

I'd also like to point out that balance and kicking technique are important.

I perfect kick is better than 100 crap ones. Keep the kicks low and perfect the technique. No use runing before you can walk.

P.s. You wanted more squats sonny? You got em! Heh!

[c_storm51]

I have a feeling I should keep quiet now.....:eek:

[YODA]

Originally posted by iolair
I find the following helpful...

1) Squat (using heavy barbell, though dumbbells are easier!). 2 seconds on up motion, 1 seconds on down motion, using a weight where I can manage 6-12 reps.

It's the other way around. The negative phase of any movement should always be done slower than the positive phase. I'd say 3-4 seconds down - 2 seconds up for squats.


2) Squats to jump (i.e. jumping up from squat position) using dumbbells with moderate weights. Motion as fast as possible while retaining control. Repeat about 10-20 times.

3) Depth Jumps. Jump off a box about 30 to 80cm high (start off with a small one and build up!). As soon as you land, bend your legs and jump up again as high as you can.

Plyometrics are advanced training - I'd wait until you can squat a decent amount 1st - say 20 reps with 1.5 x Bodyweight.

4) Leg Curl, using a machine (or bench with leg curl attachment). This helps balance the squat muscle buildup, and can also add power to hook kick and reverse roundhouse.


agreed.


5) High straight kicks with ankle weights. You can get ankle weights that strap round your ankle, with a weight usually in the range 1 pound (454g) up to 1 kilogram (2.2lbs). I use these with high straight rising kicks to the front and to the side.

Ankle weights are dumb - the resistance is in the wrong direction (always down) and can very easily lead to joing problems.


Also, building muscle will slow you down ONLY IF you don't stretch. You need to stretch your legs thoroughly after a workout using them. If you use weights AND flexibility, both your leg strength AND flexibility will improve.

Bang on!

[iolair]

Originally posted by YODA
Plyometrics are advanced training - I'd wait until you can squat a decent amount 1st - say 20 reps with 1.5 x Bodyweight.You're right of course - I was just saying what I found helpful, and should have mentioned this!

Ankle weights are dumb - the resistance is in the wrong direction (always down) and can very easily lead to joing problems.I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here... I found using ankle weights (in the weight range I talked about) critical in OVERCOMING a hip injury. Weights of up to 1kg aren't putting any significant stress on your joints... this weight is working in the muscle endurance range rather than the overload/strength training range.

[YODA]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here...


Don't be afrain :D If nobody disagreed there would be no discussion forum!


I found using ankle weights (in the weight range I talked about) critical in OVERCOMING a hip injury. Weights of up to 1kg aren't putting any significant stress on your joints...

I reckon you're progress in recovery could have been the same if not better without the ankle weights.

this weight is working in the muscle endurance range rather than the overload/strength training range.

... yes it is - but at the wrong angle i.e. against gravity rather than against the natural ROM of the muscles concerned.

If you want to add slight resistance as part of a rehab process you should look at resistance bands - much better imho!

[c_storm51]

Are the resistance bands the giant "elastic bands"? If so, I use them at circuit training - really effective, but hard work!

[YODA]

Originally posted by c_storm51
Are the resistance bands the giant "elastic bands"? If so, I use them at circuit training - really effective, but hard work!


Yes - those are they :D

[darlph]

I'd like to add that if you are using ankle weights whenyou kick, you should be in slow motion and not full speed. Very damaging.
To help build up my legs to overcome knee problems, this was suggested by my Korean orthropedist. Slow motion helps prevent hyperextension and will help with speed and form and technique. He also said air kicks only ie front kicks, side kicks, hook kicks etc. You can do the same with wrist weights.

[iolair]

OK, I seem to be coming under fire for ankle weights, so I'll just clarify how I used them...
1) The weight on each ankle was 1kg (2.2lbs)
2) I used these for training kicks, where the kicking leg was kept almost straight and brought up either to the front ("mae keage") or side ("yoko keage") in a moderately slow movement (lasting just under a second I guess). In these cases, the movement is against gravity. I didn't use them for thrusting or turning/spinning kicks.
3) After a year off training from a hip injury, I'd found high kicking - particularly to the side - impossible when I started training again, due to severe pain in my right hip. Using the ankle weights was a tactic I eventually found to build up the supporting muscles round my hip, and it was only when I'd tried this that I managed to overcome the pain when kicking and be able to do high kicks again.
4) Trying to use weights movements or machines that targetted these muscles initially put too much strain on my injured hip, even with quite light weights. Once I'd built up the supporting muscles with the light ankle weights I was able to move onto weights again.

Things I would have done differently If I'd been a little wiser back then:
1) Seek advice from a doctor and ask to be referred to a physio or sports injury specialist.
2) Look into resistance bands as an alternative (I wasn't aware of them at the time).

I still use the ankle weights as part of my workout, but only in a relatively small movement range i.e. I complete the movements with my leg moving at an angle from 30 degrees to 60 degrees to the vertical.

[iolair]

Originally posted by YODA
It's the other way around. The negative phase of any movement should always be done slower than the positive phase. I'd say 3-4 seconds down - 2 seconds up for squats.Well, after a look round at assorted sites on the internet, they mostly seem to agree with you! I'll give this a try and see what it does for my results....

[Cain]

Hmm.....I am no instructor, so I will just give ya my workout for my legs, these are not done in particular order just outlining the exercises -

1. Frog jumps

Sit in a squat position, hands behind your head and make short jumps upwards

Variations include moving your legs forward and back while jumping and also to the sides

2. Squat walks

Just walk as far as you can in a squat position and then walk backwards in the same position

Horse stance training

As low as possible, and try to stay steady and in one position for as long as you can

Variations include balancing your body with the balls of your feet in a horse stance

One legged squats -

The name says it all :D but these will be difficult at first, also don't walk or hop with these, just stay in one position.

Active flexibility -

Hold your kicks including front thrust, side kicks etc etc in one position

And lastly - Free weight squats 3 X 13

I use a barbell for these

|Cain|

[dredleviathan]

On the body weight side of things you could try:

1. Standard Squats (keep the knee behind the toes - I do it by grabbing either side of a door handle to balance myself)

2. Half Squats

3. Single legged squats

4. Hindu Squats

5. Bootstrappers

6. Lunges (either wlking or stationary with rear leg raised).

Try supersetting and changing the exercise you use once in a while. You can get descriptions from Scrapper's website:

www.trainforstrength.com (http://www.trainforstrength.com)

I've also used resistance bands and found them really useful.

I like the "springy" feeling that I now have in my legs as a consequence. I also put in down to footwork exercises (ask your instructor) and roadwork (althought this does of course stress your knees and hips so do it off-road if you have the chance).

[c_storm51]

Just thought I'd say I looked at Scrappers website - it's really good - very informative - how did you find it dredleviathan?

[dredleviathan]

Scrapper was/is a moderator on the strength & conditioning forum on the Mixed Martial Arts forum:

The Underground Forum (http://www.mma.tv/TUF/)

Its a huge forum and there is sometimes some gem information from people like Scrapper (and there was another good guy who did the weights stuff but I forget his name maybe Ali?). In terms of Muay Thia there was a guy called Khun Kao who knew his stuff and gave great advice and then there was this guy Stickgrappler who archived tonnes of stuff but especially the FMA kind of thing.

It a good resource but can take hours to wade through the crap. In the end I just couldn't make the time to visit and then I waqndered in on Yoda's now defunct forum and the next thing I know MAP came along...

Basically Scarapper impressed me with his no-nonsense approach and the fact that he didn't come across as a snake oil salesman (unlike some others). At the time he wasn't even selling any products just running a boot camp-style class in Hawaii. The videos etc came along after pressure from forum readers like myself who wanted the video to follow at home. I don't know if its really necessary once you get to grips with the exercises but its certainly a good reference in terms of the pace he uses (much faster than I was doing by myself).

The original videos are admittedly fairly poor quality (and that's part of the charm I think) but Scrapper made no claims to the contrary. And to be honest with you its about as close to Hawaii as I'm likely to get! Apparently there is a new version out out now with audio CD's and an exercise pack in addition to the videos but I don't know what that's like.

I should be on commission....

[Cougar_v203]

the sites great.
the only problem is that i don't feel the burn in my leg when i do squats or lunges.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Cougar_v203
the sites great.
the only problem is that i don't feel the burn in my leg when i do squats or lunges.


Try bootstrappers the way the scrapper's workouts do them - supersetted with free squats - you want burn? You'll get burn - oh yes indeed!

Try lunges the way they do them too - with the back foot on a chair!

The Scrapper's tapes are well worth buying - I love mine to bits. NO - I hate them! PAIN PAIN PAIN! No - I love 'em!

Ahem - mixed feelings :D

[dredleviathan]

Ha ha Yoda. That fills me with no end of joy to hear that his tapes hurt you too! I don't feel as if its just me now...

The pain is only compounded by the necessity of getting up at 7am to fit the workouts in. The supersetting of squats and bootstrappers is definitely a killer and you really would't think so when you first do the bootstrapper - it looks so easy...

I have a similar love/hate realtionship to my tapes... they seem to glower at me from across the room as if to say they have my measure.

[YODA]

Yeah - they do that don't they. I can almost here them if I miss a few days - "Oi - lazy boy! Get off your as & workout2 LOL!

[Cougar_v203]

explain scrappers to me.

[Sc0tsg1t]

Sorry Cougar but what kind of workout are you doing with your squats and lunges?

These should destroy you. In a nice way of course.;)

Another variation is the wall sit, where you have your back against the wall as if you had it against the back of a chair and you hold it for as long as you can with your legs at right angles. Nice burn on that one.

Try 50 squats followed by 25 lunges on each leg at a fairly quick pace. This is your warm up. Have about 60 seconds rest and then do the same exercises but for the squats have a tempo of 2 secs down 4 secs up. For lunges on this set go backwards rather than forwards so you utilise different stablisers.

For your final set just do 50 squats but this time do a different kick each time you finish a repetition alternating legs as you do so.


Sorry if this is a bit lame but I find it is a nice intro to my nastier routines.

In case you wonder about my credentials Cougar I'm also a qualified fitness instructor and have been so for about 8 years. If that is too easy then let me know :)

[Cougar_v203]

I do 30 squats every two days and in between I just let my legs rest.
I meant to say is that i don't feel the burn when i'm squatting, it only starts to burn when I finish my total # of squats.

[Sc0tsg1t]

hey Cougar,


I think you should do more squats personally but the experience you are having isn't unique. I tend to find it is only the last few or when I'm finished that my body screams at me. That is why you should add an extra couple every other workout to add progressive resistance and get that bit stronger and add endurance. Your entire game will benefit from the improvements gained.

Good luck anyway chap.

[dredleviathan]

I agree... you need to do a more intense workout.

For instance in Scrappers first workout you do 25 squats followed straight away by 25 boot strappers. You do this for 4 sets.. that's why its a killer.

Check it out for yourself: Scrappers website (http://www.trainforstrength.com/)