Commercialisation?

[Cooler]

Do you feel that in this day and age the martial arts are becoming more commercialised? Are we pampering to the puplic?

This is related to the topic banned exercises which Andy brought up. Are these exercises banned to please the public and bring in more students? Are grades given out to easily? Has training been toned down to such an extent that people are getting the watered down version of the art to make it easier for them?

In days gone by a student had to prove his worth to the teacher or the teacher would not teach him. A teacher was only as good as his students, if his students were bad no one would go to him to be taught therefor teachers were very selective and strict with there students.

Cooler

[Melanie]

My Sensei are forever mentioning how easy we have it. Saying that they had to do basics and kata without breaks and falls on the floor, not mats. That warm ups had been more hard work than the actual training!!

What went wrong? Were the students being driven away in masses because of this level of training?

This is only my assumption for why things have got "easier" for students...

Maybe parents were not happy to send their children to uninsured and quite frankly tentative clubs that are independents. So regulatory bodies were set up and these need paying for. Once you had this body affiliated to your club you could perhaps advertise better (?) Then when the students gets to this club, it comes back after each session unable to say their own name due to the strong and hard training structure that they have been put through. Business lost!

So in order to keep the "masses" happy, the MA have had to bend to the publics way of thinking. To accomodate all levels of skill, not just the strong, hardy types, but the ones that just want to improve themselves without getting killed during it.

I'm probably wrong - but it was fun!

Melanie

[Andy Murray]

I personally feel that this is where money comes in. When I posted 'Idealist/Realist or Capitalist', I was getting at this very thing. Yet there is no reason, in this age of information, that an Instructor should be unable to verify whether his teaching method is scientifically sound.

If an art is too easy to get involved with, then a student is unlikely to stick it

If an art costs money to practice, then it is inevitably compromised.

The whole world has better understanding of Marketing these days. I saw a MacDonalds in Cairo a few years ago. Change is inevitable. Commercialisation of the arts is probably inevitable also.

[Freeform]

When I first started training all thoughs years ago (gets dewy eyes and misty vision) I didn't actually realise what a brutal club I was training in because I had no point ot reference. We did all the daft things that have been mentioned, an hour of circuit training before the actual two hours of training, throws/grappling without mats(this was restricted to seniors and done only once a month) and full contact knockdown. When i asked my sensei 'how long until I get my black belt' I was told if I trained for at least two/three hours three times a week plus fitness training I'd probably be 'considered' in about ten years, I was quite happy with this. Imagine my suprise a couple of years ago when i was taking to the old bugger when he told me that they (the senior instructors of our style) had recently revised the grading system and were looking at 4 year black belts, why? we need people through the door to pay for the rent/equipment he said.

I suppose many people would think that i'd be gutted that i'd put so much effort in whereas now people get it much easier, but I'm just sad that it has to be this way these days.

[Chazz]

Mel asked: What went wrong? people have become softer than they were years ago. People have become more law suite crazy so instructors have had to weaken their class so that they may be able to teach without thinkin they my have to go to court cause someone rooled their anckle. Then i think you have a lot of BOGUS TEACHERS. In it for the money, dont care about the students, dont care about their style and dont care about the history of the martial arts. If you have a few grand they will put a black bet on you faster that you can think. Ive seen that a lot around here.

*LOL* I just dont like to see the same school on every corner. Where im moving i know of 2 huge school that have 12+ location. you see their adds on TV, the paper, mags. Then you go in there and the whole school is black belts. Their big add is "Get yout black belt in no time at all" Classes cost more than people pay for rent. and the teachers are lacking something.

The days i find myself in this for the money is the day i hope (Mel, Jack and Forbes kick me in the head). I will stop teaching.

[Cooler]

You'll have to bend down so I can kick you in the head. LOL

Cooler

[waya]

I think it depends on the school.... There seems to be two factions of martial arts now, the real hard training people who have a passion for the arts, and the McDojo where the instructor (usually a good instructor that decided the money was better) cares about nothing more than your check not bouncing. There are schools here where as long as you attend a belt teasting and pay your fees you will pass, no matter what your knowledge is or isn't. I don't think it is everywhere though, just about half and half (which is more than bad enough).

Rob

[Andy Murray]

Congratulations Waya.........'McDojo' explains the whole thing so well. lol. Then again, the Japanese started exporting Karate before the Americans sold Burgers in every town over here.

[Silver_no2]

While there are a number of martial arts clubs in Edinburgh I am not aware of many "McDojos". From what I can gather it is not a very profitable business in the UK.

[Andy Murray]

The point is that attempts are made at 'McDojos', which ruins things for the real connysewers ( spelling failed me, but hey ).

A lot of people spend time in the arts trying to crack the 'Inner Circle', when their time would have been better spent mimicking the movements of a mating ferret.

It's not always about financial gain, but of position, power and prestige.

Oops I'm ranting again are'nt I.

Anybody wanna join Amway???

[waya]

I think there you have touched on rank being more important than skill or knowledge, which is also seen alot. Don't get me wrong, I have alot of respect for most people higher rank than I am because they have more knowledge. But I don't have the same respect for say a 5th Dan that more or less bought their belt or received it by some other means that has nothing to do with how much they have learned and their experience or skill.

Rob

[Kat]

Hey all
I think sure, MA are overly commercialized,but i think this is often influenced by its enviroment.And the movitvation of its instructors.

People who are truly searching for arts that they are happy with will move on,and certianly there is probaly a school out there to suit everyone.

I would like to point out that MA instruction used to be interconnected with Combat industries,This is no longer the trend,with many instructors happily admitting no involvement in volience/combat at all.But then again not all people go to schools just to learn to beat someone up,in fact I would say that most schools offer much more then just combat training.

Where I find this all coming apart is when the not so hard core schools start preaching there combat abilites when they are more suited to the comp circuit.

I just feel none of this is bad ,there will always be schools with lots of forms and colorful uniforms,just as there are schools with no forms and lots of fighting,and groups who are aligned with Security work and some aligned with Health industries.

If people are getting value for money is something that is up to them to decide.

I guesss this leads into stardarisation tests(something personally I don't agree with) to bring about regualation within the industry,but I can not see how this would be done.

Rank
This is another topic that gets me going,currently I am with a schools which has none,no grades no sashs,when we get together its in a circle not lines,respect is given to all.Its not for everyone but I really dig it.

[Freeform]

McDojo...hahaha! I like the idea of everyone standing around in a circle.

I'm just really upset that my sensei would never let me wear a colourful 'cool' uniform.

[Melanie]

Kat,

That's the first time I have ever heard of circle formations. Sounds like a very practical and fair thing to do. However, what is the drive behind getting your next grading? I have heard a fair bit recently about no belts and ranks. I think it is a brilliant idea personally, but I think this would only be suitable for adults. It becomes more personal as an adult about what drives you whereas with young children, they have a competitive streak and want to be like their peers. I don't know whether youngsters would be as interested if they couldn't earn a coloured belt?

What say everyone else?

Melanie

[waya]

It's not a bad idea for advanced students or instructors, but it could make getting new students nearly impossible. And I'm not sure how the consistency in their training would be.

Rob

[Chazz]

I like the idea of the circle thing. But at the same time a lot of people start into the martial arts for the idea of getting into shape and the "purdy belts" Until they start to become more dedicated (like we all are ;-) ) ive been told that the thought of getting a new "rank" is what kept them goin.

[Andrew Green]

I think that yes, in some sense you can blaim the emmergance of commercial schools for the martial arts going soft.

They made it main stream, they made it something 'normal' people could do.

Before that it was only people who where nuts to start with training.

Perhaps many commercial schools have even lowered the standard, but I'm not so sure.

Are we talking martial arts or martial sports? Some of the lowest quality martial artists out there have a large collection of trophies.

The whole 10 years to BB is a load of crap, sorry about the crudness, but it just is.

Those instructors telling you that that trained in Okinawa or Japan or Korea or whatever while they where in the military for 12 - 18 months and came back with theres, maybe time moves different over there...

The truth is, if you get 1st & 2nd dans running schools, which is how this all started, 1st & 2nd dan aren't going to come quickly since your instructor is only those ranks.

But whatever the reasons, it doesn't matter what the time line is, belts/ranks are irrelevant if you can't do anything.

I'd rather give a shodan after 3 yrs and have 20 students left after 6 yrs than give a shodan after 6 years and 3 make it.

Rank is a retention tool, commercial schools recognise this and put it to use as such.

As to the quality of training, blaim tournaments and incompatant instructors, not commercial schools. Although they may be the reason we get more tournaments.

Over time less and less time is spent on non-tournament stuff in order to keep up with the other schools that are spending less time on other stuff, eventually tournament stuff is all that is done, the rest disappears, if it was even there.

Also the style of teaching was pretty brutal, remember ex-marines teaching it, as it became mainstream the boot camp attitude had to go. It did, but with it went the hard training, which didn't have to.

You can push students hard, you just gotta give them water, treat them with respect and don't come accross as a drill sargent.

Unfortuantly thats all many ever learnt to do, when they went soft, they over did it and went completely soft.

I run a commercial school, going soft doesn't work for me.

They come in, they want to get in shape, they want to learn karate. I push them hard, they see results, they learn karate, they stay.

I don't do competitions at all, no one complains. As a result I can spend time training whatever I want, not just kata as a performance art and point fighting.

I have had a few come over from the "traditional" schools, Kata and kumite under tournament rules, and now they probably wouldn't do as well in competitions, but we'll never now. But We do know they are in a lot better shape, and are a lot more comfortable fighting with a lot less rules. (Ever get mount on a tournament only practitioner?)

All that being said there are some that are just in it for the money, doing this full-time the money certainely plays a part for me, but I strongly believe that the best way to do this is to have long term students. The way to do that is to not water it down, and actually un-waterdown anything I can. No one will stay in a place that gives them little benefit, especially if you overcharge them. Which means spending more money on advertising, which means again raising the fees, and attracting more low grade students that quit shortly after.

In short, while commerciallisation hasn't been all good, it certainely hasn't been all bad. We have better facilities, more students, more classes, more equipment and are more often more motivated to change things and improve things as it is our life.

[Chazz]

OK Whats the deal with this:

"The truth is, if you get 1st & 2nd dans running schools, which is how this all started, 1st & 2nd dan aren't going to come quickly since your instructor is only those ranks."

Im sorry but im testing soon for my 2nd dan and i run a school as well. Our students are not held back due to them getting close to my rank. I love it when i see someone get promoted through me. The only reason that they would be help back is because they dont know what they should and are not up to the level that they should be. Our students have to meet so many hours and so many months before they are even thought about being tested. As of now we havent had any student held back just student that have advanced faster than most do. So it might be best when you single out a group of people to talk about that you use "MOST" and not make it sound like all of them.

-Chazz

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by chazz982001

Im sorry but im testing soon for my 2nd dan and i run a school as well. Our students are not held back due to them getting close to my rank. I love it when i see someone get promoted through me. The only reason that they would be help back is because they dont know what they should and are not up to the level that they should be. Our students have to meet so many hours and so many months before they are even thought about being tested. As of now we havent had any student held back just student that have advanced faster than most do. So it might be best when you single out a group of people to talk about that you use "MOST" and not make it sound like all of them.

-Chazz

and do you get your students up to Shodan in under 2 years?

Do you only have 3-4 years training to be almost nidan?

Do you have to fly someone from asia in, or go to them to get such a test done?

Things changed long before you opened your school. Now shodan is considered a high level grade and takes longer. Before it was a beginners grade and the only way a shodan would teach was if there was absolutely no one else.

The meaning of shodan has changed since rank was introduced, I gave what I believe the reasons for said change to be. But with shodan taking longer, the level of competence for shodan also went up. So much so that many now consider it a instructors license.

The problem is those schools are the same schools that complain about others lowering there standards, when in fact it was them who raised the standards. Perhaps, if in fact they did lower them, they are a little closer to the original meaning of the rank then those that allow teaching at shodan.

However I was referring to a historical theory, not modern practices, I apologise that it seemed otherwise.

Now rank can mean so many things it is pretty meaningless in the big picture of things.

[Kat]

Hey Mel
I should explain that our school is made up of people with a fair bit of experience in different arts and have searched out there teacher,this does create a sort of mature atmosphere(in fact there is no one in the class under 28).Our instructor doesn't advertise and its not his sole source of income,he is however passionate about his art,just not about formalities.(we even call him by his first name).Given his lack of burden to keep anything afloat he can concentrate on training us.

A reason the circle works for us is the almost complete usuage of partner work in training,and changeing partners after every drill.Instruction is done as much by the instructor as by your partner.

I get the vibe that most of the people posting are from the Karate/Tae Kwon Do style approach,which is quite different from say Boxing or Chinese MA approach.

[waya]

I agree with rank not always meaning much.
I have been training in Shotokan since I entered children's classes when I was 3. And still I am only a Nidan. That doesn't bother me at all though, especially since I am on other paths with my training now and other arts. But I have seen many instructors that are 1st and 2nd Dans that were excellent at what they do. Much the same I have seen many higher grades that shouldn't be teaching. I think it should be more on the instructor's knowledge and skill than how many stripes they wear.

Rob

[Chazz]

I agree with you waya, I do know of a few instructors here that are mastes "so they say" and wouldnt know a back kick from a front kick but is still teaching. Then i know of a few young low rank instructors who teach everything from their forms to the history of their style and vise-versa. Around here at least i think instructors are made too easy. Too many people wanted to start their own style and all of a sudden they have a class of black belts with no understanding of the martial arts. then they send them out to try to open schools. Without knowledge and skill you cant Instruct.

[Silver_no2]

I think that whether you are a good instructor is not just about being a third dan or higher, nor is it just about knowledge and skill (though these are obviously needed).

I think that the most important aspect of being an instructor (of being any sort of leader or teacher) is communication. If an instructor does not communicate clearly with his/her students then all the technical knowledge and skill in the world is of no use. It will just lead to frustration for both the instructor and the students.

My own sensei is a 2nd dan and I am more than happy with his instruction. I like the way that he explains the techniques and keeps things interesting by demonstrating and teaching some of the higher grade stuff (black belt syllabus) so that the lower grades can see the light at the end of the tunnel!

[Chazz]

well i guess that is true. If you cant understand what the instructor is talking about you can learn. Another thing i thing that is need in that area is knowing how to talk to different ages. Its all well and good to be able to talk to people your own age and people of an older status but you also need to be able to communicat with the younger group as well. Because if you are talking to them like you would an older adult, some kids dont respond well to that. So you have to ease down to their level.

[Andy Murray]

In most businesses, it is accepted that a competitive marketplace improves the quality of product available. Unfortunately, what some people are saying here is, that the MA being so readily available is lowering standards.

In the long term is it better to be more fastidious about the people we teach, or is it about building chains of schools to cover our overheads?

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
In most businesses, it is accepted that a competitive marketplace improves the quality of product available. Unfortunately, what some people are saying here is, that the MA being so readily available is lowering standards.

In the long term is it better to be more fastidious about the people we teach, or is it about building chains of schools to cover our overheads?

No, availability will improve the aspect of the product that the consumers are most interested in. If they are most interested in low prices, then the prices will drop, but to do this quality often is sacraficed as well. Think about all th fast food restaurants, fast and cheap, not high quality.

If people want competitive ability, competitive training methods will improve, these schools exist.

If people want a fast and easy bragging right from having a black belt, schools will deliver, these schools also exist.

If people want practical and effective self-defence, a hard work out and high quality training, schools will deliver, these schools also exist.

Bottom line, if you want a top quality meal, don't go to McDonalds, unfortunatly most people can't tell the difference when it comes to Martial Arts.

[Andy Murray]

Sorry Andrew, but you have missed my point slightly. Lower pricing of commercial goods is a result of a competitive market. Availability of goods is a result of a competitive market. The quality of commercial goods is a result of a competitive market.

Availability of goods, lets call this the customers 'Choice' in MA, will not improve any aspects of said arts, they simply have a choice as to where they can go. Where they choose to stay , is the key issue we are addressing here.

When we look at the MA as a product, we can talk about it in these terms. Product, Sales, Advertising, Marketing, Pyramid Structures etc.

We should look at MA as an Artform we shouldn't talk about a product! Degas didn't work as an Interior Decorator. Picasso didn't do Holiday snaps. Beethoven didn't write jingles for the radio, and none of us are sitting here typing out our hearts because we are going to earn something from it.

The question is......................

1/ Can we do something about it?

2/Should we do something about it?

3/What do we do about it?

If, by chipping foreheads in chatrooms like these, we can establish the core ideals, to the point where we all have the same goal in mind, then perhaps we can work together on an ideal more Eutopian.


:woo:

Incidentally I work in Sales & Distribution. All the products I sell are twice the price of my competitions!

[Silver_no2]

Are we getting a little to hung up on the idea of what we do being an art form? From what I understand, the vast majority of MA's came about through a need to be able to defend/fight. A master swordsman (or martial instructor) was a highly sought after person in feudal Japan, and would be given a position of honour and a substantial fiefdom. Was that entirely different from being paid to instruct people in a MA nowadays? I don't think so. It doesn't take long for a fraud to be found out - and while I doubt that they would have their head removed nowadays I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't stay around for long. The MA community is not that large and it doesn't take too long for word of mouth to let everyone know whether an instructor is worth his salt.

How do we know that Picasso didn't do holiday snaps? Surely he did many pieces that were not worth millions but which earned him some money so that he could eat and put a roof over his head. You talk about Beethoven not writing jingles for radios, but I'm sure that he did the equivalent for his time so that he was in a position to be able to write the great pieces that we know and love. Yes, artists and musicians do what they do out of a love for what they do - but if someone was willing to pay them I doubt they would complain. I doubt anyone would suggest that Bono and the rest of U2 don't love to write songs and play music - does their love of their "artform" mean that they shouldn't be paid. Someone better tell Bono to sell that multi-million pound estate that he bought recently!! The bottom line is that we all do our MA's because we enjoy it - how many people would complain if someone wants to pay you to do what you enjoy!

The fact of the matter is that if an instructor is handing out black belts like they were going out of fashion any serious martial artist would avoid his school like the plague. Should we actually care whether there are a large number of black belts being handed out? I don't think so. At the end of the day each individual will know whether they have earned it or bought it, and as long as there are still decent clubs/schools that are doing things properly then I am not bothered by these McDojos.

[Andrew Green]

Well Andy I think what you are reffering to what I call brainwashing in the martial arts. Which ever instructor gets the student first usually tells the student the "truth".

The martial arts are competitive when it comes to getting new students, not when it comes to getting other peoples students.

Little Billy has already earned his Green belt at one school, that school has convinced him and his parents it is the best even though niether he nor his parents have any idea what goes on in any other school. Billy isn't going to give up that training and start over at white belt.

One of the major downsides of rank.

It doesn't matter that what he learnt is low quality, if he ever does realise that its not worth it, he is unlikely to go somewhere else. He'll think that all schools teach more or less the same thing.

Hell there are a lot of schools that make you sign an agreement not to train at other schools while you train there. Taking away your ability to check out the competition. Let's admit it at least most instructors would be at least a little annoyed if they found out you had started training at another school as well with out asking them if it was ok.

The fact that it is an artform is exactly why there are these problems. Anyone can teach completely useless material and claim it to be secret-super-ninja-techniques that are much to dangerous to practice for real.

If it where a sport then the poor instructors would train students who get beat badly, they would then seek out a better coach, likely one that trained the people that keep beating them.

But as an artform done individually with the only base of comparrison being students trained the same way you were, its impossible to tell if your doing anything right, if you do eventually figure it out you quit entirely believing everyone else is doing more or less the same thing anyway

[Andy Murray]

I have to hope, Silver, that your last paragraph remains only as your own opinion. Yes a serious MA would avoid these schools, but we are not talking about the established artist here, we are talking about the ignorant masses.

This Forum is discussing Commercialisation, not Supposition.

It's not to say that none of us should meet the costs involved in teaching our arts. I'm asking should we alter our principles simply to meet financial targets.

Incidentally, U2, Simple Minds, Papa Roache and many other musicians all invested their hard earned cash in equipment from my firm this year. I profit by that, but that's my job!

Yes we do MA because we enjoy it, and yes it's OK to make money from it. If though, you find yourself spending more time on admin than you do on training, then your head is up your arse!!!

Anyone with genuine knowledge of how Beethoven and Picasso paid their Gas bills, please feel free to jump in!

[Andy Murray]

History is usually written by the winning side!

[Andy Murray]

MA is not about the winning, but the taking part!

[Freeform]

Is Commercialisation wrong? I have no problem with a 'good' instructor whose 'product' is good from earning a living teaching. Should some of these commercial schools not advertise themselves as a sport rather as an art?

I can appreciate the need to pay the hall fees but I do tend to cringe when I see the words 'martial arts academy', as I tend to think of mass production and lower quality. But then I can only speak for the minority as I tend to avoid these places.

p.s Papa Roache rule.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Freeform
Is Commercialisation wrong? I have no problem with a 'good' instructor whose 'product' is good from earning a living teaching. Should some of these commercial schools not advertise themselves as a sport rather as an art?

I can appreciate the need to pay the hall fees but I do tend to cringe when I see the words 'martial arts academy', as I tend to think of mass production and lower quality. But then I can only speak for the minority as I tend to avoid these places.

p.s Papa Roache rule.

Academy: 1. A secondary school, usually a private one. 2. A school giving instruction in some science or art. 3. A learned society for the advancement of arts or sciences.

comes from the Greek Akademeia which was where Plato taught.

So if you are going to compare my school to others because of the name, compare it to Plato's.

It's a name, nothing more

[Freeform]

Sorry no offence meant. But I'd be intersted in finding out how you structure your teaching?

[Andrew Green]

What would you like to know?

[waya]

Personally I have no problem with an instructor earning a living from teaching as long as they are giving the right instruction and not "selling" black belts. Professors get paid at universities. Teachers get paid to teach in schools. These people all do this because they love passing on knowledge. And many Martial Arts instructors are the same. If they had to hold a full time job, possibly with overtime, how good would the teaching and training be then? The same as expecting a school teacher to work 8-10 hours and then go to the school and try to teach your children to read, write, and handle life in this world while their mind is clouded by being tired, overworked, and overall exhausted. To me "Commercialisation" is mass producing unqualified instructors. But what I am seeing mostly brought up is should any instructor be paid to teach....... I think so.

Rob

[Pablo]

Just an observation, perhaps offering something for free gives the wrong impression, i.e. that it has no worth.


;)

paul

[Chazz]

I dont see it wrong for instructors to get paid as long as they are teaching quality material and not just getting paid so that a group of people can just call themselves black belts and know nothing.

[Andy Murray]

Freedom in Martial Arts is not worthless.............I'ts priceless!

There is nothing wrong with people getting paid for teaching MA!
The question is; Does it change their Ethos? ( Greek Word I think )

We all know many full time/paid instructors with good ethics, yet............................................... ...

[Silver_no2]

Andy, I've done some research and it turns out that Beethoven ran a martial arts school to make some money while he was writing symphonies!!

As to the ignorant masses - when they have started training they will become, over time, established artists. At this point they will then become a bit more selective in their choice of schools/instructors etc. Surely it is a case of quality rising to the top. Over the short term an instructor who 'hands out' black belts will be very popular with the 'unwashed masses' - as you seem to think of the general public - but over the long term quality will out.

As to whether or not being paid will change an instructors ethos, I don't think that it happens as often as you make out. Why focus on the negative (i.e. those instructors who 'sell' their black belts) when there are far more instructors who do things properly.

A large part of the martial arts is the loss of ego, the idea that you're not doing your MA to be be considered tougher/harder/better than the next person. Claiming that McDojos' handing out black belts lessens the worth of those that people have sweated blood to achieve suggests that we have not lost our egos yet (and I have a bigger ego than most to lose!!). That is why I am not bothered by these McDojos - I know that when I achieve my first dan it will be just that, an achievement - why should I care if some spoilt little rich kid has bought one - I know which one is worth more (bugger, and there I was talking about losing my ego!)

I think that it is a little harsh to say that if someone spends If more time on admin than they do on training, then their head is up their arse. If someone has to spend eight hours a day doing admin and paperwork so that they can teach for five hours a day then it suggests to me that they are dedicated to being able to instruct.

[Cooler]

This topic has certainly got you going.

Firstly I would just like to say Andy is right in saying:
It's not to say that none of us should meet the costs involved in teaching our arts. I'm asking should we alter our principles simply to meet financial targets.
I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that Martial Artists should not make money out of teaching, in fact if you can make a living out of it then go for it. What I was trying to get at is should our standards drop as many people's seem to when they become more interested in making money than teaching.

This point is made by Andrew Green:
Anyone can teach completely useless material and claim it to be secret-super-ninja-techniques that are much to dangerous to practice for real.
This is were the danger comes in with low grade teaching you get the dangerous situation of people wandering about thinking they know how to defend themselves.....wrong! They know how to get themselves killed. Now as instructors you have the responsibility of making sure your students know what is real and what is not.

Most people have never witnessed or been involved in real violence there only knowledge of it is what they see on the T.V. or what there Martial Arts teacher tells them. When it happens for real it is not like in the class or the movies it is brutal and messy with no finness. I know I have seen plenty of it in my line of work (doorman in a nightclub).

A lot of schools don't prepare there students for the reality and I don't mean by practicing real gritty streetfighting, a simple sentence like "don't try this on the street or you will die" would suffice. Let the students know what they are getting.

I am starting to go off track so I will finish there by saying "once we care more about the money and less about the truth we teach then we are going in the wrong direction"

Cooler

[Pablo]

Silver_No2 wrote:

"... A large part of the martial arts is the loss of ego, the idea that you're not doing your MA to be be considered tougher/harder/better than the next person.
Claiming that McDojos' handing out black belts lessens the worth of those that people have sweated blood to achieve suggests that we have not lost our egos yet ..."


I'm with you on that one.
When the Classics say " Invest in loss ", I'm pretty sure that they weren't talking about the stock market.
Not being able to let go (of ego, competitiveness, or desire), has probably held back more progress in the arts than any other factor.

;)

Thank you

paul

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Silver_no2

A large part of the martial arts is the loss of ego, the idea that you're not doing your MA to be be considered tougher/harder/better than the next person. Claiming that McDojos' handing out black belts lessens the worth of those that people have sweated blood to achieve suggests that we have not lost our egos yet (and I have a bigger ego than most to lose!!). That is why I am not bothered by these McDojos - I know that when I achieve my first dan it will be just that, an achievement - why should I care if some spoilt little rich kid has bought one - I know which one is worth more (bugger, and there I was talking about losing my ego!)



Ok, I think maybe you're taking the propaganda a little to seriously. Look at it this way:

There is this pile of crap.

You know its there.

No one else does, so they keep stepping in it.

Is it not responsible to warn them not to step in the crap?

Or do you sit back and say, once they've realised stepping in the crap is bad, they'll come and seek my guidance.

Marketing is a part of the game, an instructor that sits back and doesn't market his school believing it is good to be humble and wrong to self-promote, just won't have a school for long.

At best he'll end up with a few students in a garage or community center, where they meet, train, and tell each other how they are 'superior' to those with big egos that have a better facility, more students, can train full-time and make a decent living doing what they love.

[Silver_no2]

I agree with Cooler on the idea of "don't try this on the street or you will die". I worked on the doors for three years in Edinburgh and I witnessed a fair amount of violence as well as being involved in it on the rare occassion (thankfully - while I don't consider myself a coward I prefer to avoid fights and will only fight as a last resort). Coming from this stand point I have quickly realised which techniques I have been shown that would be effective in the real world and which should be left in a dojo. I think that I have now been training long enough to actually pose a threat...to myself. I am become adept enough in class that if I'm not careful I will think that I can handle anything that comes my way. The fact of the matter is that I am a good five to ten years away from being good enough to use my training instinctively and if you are going to use MA's in a real fight then it has to be on an instinctive level. If it is not then by the time you have thought of the technique that you would like to apply it is too late.

As to the point of should we let our standards drop...of course not. I say again, the standards of most instructors is high, and the McDojo (I love that term!!) instructor with low standards will not last too long. Quality will out!!

PS - Degas apparently worked on a close protection unit to help make ends meet.

[Silver_no2]

I am not saying that you do not promote your own school/academy/club etc. Of course you do, but that is what you do PROMOTE your club not slag off other peoples. Not only is it unprofessional to do so but it also suggests to the unknowing punter a certain amount of jealousy and pettiness, something I doubt that will find attractive when it comes to choosing where they train. To use your analogy:

There is this pile of crap.
You know its there.
No one else does, so they keep stepping in it.
Is it not responsible to warn them not to step in the crap?

NO. What you should do is let them know that there is crap on the pavement and then let them make up their own mind as to whether to step in the crap. Some weirdos like stepping in crap. Others will step in the crap and then realise that it wasn't a good idea and avoid it from then on while others will avoid it in the first place.

(Alternatively you could get Freeform to destroy the crap with his butterfly knives while shouting "Someone's having shish kebab!")

At the end of the day you can lead a horse to water...but you can't make it drink. There will always be people who want the quick, easy option (why do you think that the lottery is so popular!)

[Andrew Green]

The goal is to make the general public believe that your school is better and they should go there. While directly attacking a specific school is not usually done, the goal is the same it is just done indirectly.

A marketing campaign that went along the lines of "We're not really better than any of our competitors, sure there are some bad ones, but there are a lot of good ones, some probably better then us, but you just go ahead and do whatever you think is right." Is something I don't think I've seen.

PS: Don't worry I have my own butterfly knives, as well as a lot of other weapons with which I can destroy the crap :)

[Andy Murray]

Silver, feel free to interpret what I have written, but please don't misquote me, as you have failed to capture the context of my dialogue. I'm not 'making out' anything, I'm merely raising points of discussion.

Cooler, thanks for the summary and keeping us on track

Andrew, I opened my school in 1995. I've never advertised or marketed, and I'm still there. Not through any priestly piety or anything, but certainly not so I can accuse the rest of the world of Capitalism. If an Instructor is any good, then his school will thrive on word of mouth alone. I do a 400 mile round trip to train with one particular Sifu. I have students who do the same for me.

Cooler, I'd just like to second your comment on letting your students know what is real or not. You know I know the kind of crap you are talking about.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Andy Murray

Andrew, I opened my school in 1995. I've never advertised or marketed, and I'm still there. Not through any priestly piety or anything, but certainly not so I can accuse the rest of the world of Capitalism. If an Instructor is any good, then his school will thrive on word of mouth alone. I do a 400 mile round trip to train with one particular Sifu. I have students who do the same for me.


Sure, thats called internal advertising, or internal marketing. It's much more effective. I bet you at least have a sign and a yellow page listing though if its a commercial school.

Why not advertise externally? Get more students, give them a better place to train, make more money, etc.

Have you ever done prizes for recruiting members? If not I suggest you try.

You're right though word of mouth is the best way to build a school. Most of my members came in that way.


Cooler, I'd just like to second your comment on letting your students know what is real or not. You know I know the kind of crap you are talking about.

Hate to say it but it's not practical. A teacher running a "self-defence" school isn't about to tell his students his stuff won't really work. That is if he actually knows it won't really work...

Pretty much everything I do I believe works, although I will tell students "It won't work yet" because of missing steps to keep it simple, lack of practice, etc.

[Silver_no2]

Apologies, Andy, if I offended - not my intention. Anyway, back to the discussion in hand...

Originally posted by Andrew Green
A marketing campaign that went along the lines of "We're not really better than any of our competitors, sure there are some bad ones, but there are a lot of good ones, some probably better then us, but you just go ahead and do whatever you think is right." Is something I don't think I've seen.

Neither am I suggesting that this is the sort of ad campaign you would want to run (should you want to run an ad campaign). My point was that slagging down others is not the way to do it. For a start it is very dodgy ground legally as you can be taken to court for slander/libel which is not really a good thing. Secondly, and more importantly, people want to know what your school/dojo has to offer not that your dad is bigger than the dad of the guy next door. People respond better to positive advertising than they do to negative. Word of mouth is still the best way to grow your business, whatever it is. Not to repeat myself too often but quality will out!

[Andy Murray]

I read a Bruce Lee story somewhere, it may be one of those myths, but it went along the lines of;

Bruce wanted more personal instruction, so he got down to the club early before Sifu arrived. as the other students arrived, he said sorry, no training today, Sifu is unwell. When Sifu arrived there was only Bruce for a lesson.

Andrew, I don't have a sign outside, I don't advertise, I don't want to and I don't need to. If I take on more students, each one gets less time spent on them. I have Junior Instructors, but they will always be viewed as secondary sources of information, till I'm not around. I am intent on giving back as much as I can to the Art that gave me so much.

One point about 'word of mouth' members. I have a very low income of new students, but I have a very high retention rate. If you tell people what you do, then you do it, they are usually appreciative.

Silver, no offence taken or intended, so apology unneccessary. I have just been showing you all my technique in fending off Multiple Attackers LOL
( 4 o'clock behind the bikesheds ok? )

[Freeform]

I've trained in a lot of 'word of mouth' schools. I like the fact that the classes are generally smaller because it means you get a larger percentage of your instructors time, and this increases your rate of improvement.

I've also trained in well advertised schools. One instructor I trained under had a '2 tier' system, one level for the 'weekend warriors' and one for people such as myself. Whilst he taught us the same things, kata for example, he would insist that some of us know the bunkai and also take that into acount when he graded us, but not so with the 'weekend warriors'. He knew how far he could push us. Was it right that he did this, go soft on the majority of the class to keep the money coming in? Was it right to grade some of us harder than the others? Is that commercialism in action?

[Andy Murray]

I sense a leading question freeform, but I'll tentatively take the bait.

Is it fair that people who only have time to train at the weekend ( Weekend Warriors ), don't get taught to the same level as the more full time students.

The most disheartening thing as an Instructor, is to have someone with natural talent wander into the club. You spend a couple of months shaping and moulding them, and then they sod off. On the other hand, the guy with the wooden leg who comes every night is paying your hall, andlooking on with envy.

Some of the best MArtists I know are people who just kept going. No matter what their hall was like, or how many competitions they had lost, or how many times they had been humiliated by someone with 'natural talent!

A good way to deal with the question raised by freeform, is not to teach everyone personally. Let the masses be taught by a junior instructor. Every so often, you can appear and throw pearls of wisdom. the idea being that, the students with the determination will fight amongst themselves to become part of the inner circle. If they want in, they will attend more regularly, train harder, and practice more.

( Flinches....anticipating a blow )

[Ghostsuit]

Well I've just read all the messages so far and it's been interesting reading.

Here's what I've picked up so far...

If I joined Andrew Greens School...

I'd pay more for it
I'd maybe get more belts
I'd train in a well funded hall with good equipment
I wouldn't do competitions
I run a commercial school, going soft doesn't work for me.
I'd be trained hard
The classes would be bigger

If I joined Andy Murreys School

I'd payless
I'd get less belts
I'd train in a hall (some sort of community place)
I'd be trained hard
Smaller classes

I think the key here is you both have the same love for martial arts but one works at it to make money and I'm guessing that if we ignored the belts people would be near the same skill level over time. The key here is the instructor not the commercialisation of the dojo.

Sure you'll get the idiots that will run a Mcdojo type of club but you also get the idiots who think "I know kung FU" and teach at the local gym. Can you really say one is worse than the other, I think not.

Still the commercial aspect will always have those out to make a fast buck but that’s the same as any industry and if people haven’t figured out that you should check out "merchandise" first then maybe they deserve to be taught by a bad instructor or maybe the good instructors should make it more obvious that they welcome people trying out there clubs.

[Andy Murray]

Cost.............................................. .£3 for two hours

Belts............................................. ..Probably same number

Hall.............................................. ...Spacious Heated Church Hall

Hard Training..................................As hard as you need

Smaller Classes..............................I can cope with about twenty

I don't know that anyone who is not teaching students on a regular basis, can make an informed judgement on some of the issues raised so far.

In some ways we seem to be comparing a Hare Krishna setup, to an Evangelical church.

Hey ghostsuit.............wait till someone invites you anyway...LOL

[Ghostsuit]

Belts............................................. ..Probably same number Ok I made an ass of that point I meant I'd get to a high belt quicker in andrews class but would probably be at the same skill level as someone with a lower belt in your classes.I don't know that anyone who is not teaching students on a regular basis, can make an informed judgement on some of the issues raised so far. Yeah your right but I'm the person who would have to choose which club to join. The thing is if your both in the same town I'm most likely going to hear about Andrews club before yours. Now the main difference between me and joe bloggs (and this is a guess) is that I'd try out more than one club before I'd decided which was for me. The thing is some people just want to get fit and learn a little self defence and these Mcdojo's cater for those type's of people. It's how to inform people about which is a good class and which isn't.
In some ways we seem to be comparing a Hare Krishna setup, to an Evangelical church. You know both those organisation scare the hell out of me. :D

[Andy Murray]

Ok, How about some field research. Some Magazines send out Secret Shoppers to investigate standards. Funnily enough I believe Mac Donalds do this. Burger King recently sacked 2 employees at a Service Station, because they were found to be spitting in the Burgers ( hey, anything that gives em a little flavour is ok by me)!

If we could get an eloquent unbiased volunteer to go and check out different schools in their area............................Melanie........... Melanie.........MELANIE!.... COME BACK HERE!.......

[Freeform]

Is it right to have this 'inner circle' thing going on when everyone is paying the same amount of money?

[Pablo]

"When everyone is paying the same..."

That is true, but not everyone comes through the door with the same reasons for training, much less the same abilities, determination, etc. I think that in any group training, some people will 'self select', and wind up getting less out of the programme than they should. Don't forget, " The teacher can only open the door, the student must walk through it".

BTW, after this thread came up, I went out to dinner at a restaurant that I had been meaning to try. Taped to the front door was a flyer for 'Tai Chi and Health Arts'. I immediately recognized the name as someone that I had met at an acupuncture lecture about 2 years ago, and I distinctly remember that at the time, they professed to know nothing about the martial arts. The flyer went on to say that this person had been teaching this class for 6 months, and was now going to be training advanced students.
:eek:


Take care


paul

[Andy Murray]

Freeform, are you referring to the weekend warrior thing here, or in general..

I just put this forward as one way if dealing with your original question, so yes, it is right in that context!

( Lifts his leg, and the sweep goes harmlessly past )

[hongkongfuey]

On the subject of commercialism, how about the subject of 'pyramid teaching'

I ran a club (along with another student of similar grade) for several years when I was myself only at the 5th grade in the system (black belt being the 9th grade). I was still getting taught myself, albeit infrequently, and much I had to "pick up myself". My instructor moved on to start up other clubs which he then left to high(ish) grade students to run themselves.

Cooler mentioned in one of the forums that the Chinese martial arts encourages the teaching of beginners by the grades immediatly above them, with which I do agree somewhat, but I do wonder if this can be taken too far. Anyone else come across this form of instruction and any views on it?

I'll not mention what style this was for obvious reasons!

[waya]

I have come across it in a couple schools. I think it is ok as long as you have the supervision of a ranked instructor. I don't agree with leaving a beginning student responsible for another one.

Rob

[Andy Murray]

As a brief and possibly unsatisfactory answer HKF;

Sifu literally translates as father. Students are sons, daughters, brothers and sisters. Dad has the last say, and teaches the broader concepts, but we rely on our brothers and sisters to help us along. This is the Chinese 'family system' ( gar ). I agree that a lot of arts, Chinese included, have turned this into a pyramid system, but this is due to a Western mentality.

The Chinese systems had no need of rank or belts. The pyramid structures you refer to occur because of competition between styles. Not to say that this did not occur in China, it did, I think the Western world is more capable of compromising a brand than the Chinese are. The concept of honour.

If Mr Ming had cut a few corners to make more vases, how valuable would they be know?

Hows that for a Tangent for you?

Andy Murray
Primal Rant

[Ozebob]

Hi All,

I've read through this thread but apologise if I am repeating what anyone else has said. I consider that there are too many people teaching karate at a low level, wouldn'tit be better if students supported Japanese Instructors of 5th Dan and above only?

Isn't it the professionals that should be paid for their services? Those teaching as backyard mechanics should do it for freeand not do any gradings IMO. Leave that to the professionals.
Commercial schools that sell belts for money and not sweat should be shunned.
Ozebob

[waya]

hmmmmmmm isn't that monopolizing? And a bit prejudiced as well? I realize that most arts "originated" in Japan or China. But to be honest there are records of parts of those fighting systems coming from the Middle East and Europe well before that.
What you are saying is basically that only a Japanese high ranking artist has the right to teach something no matter how hard any of the rest of us work at it, which lately the western half of the world trains more and harder than the Asian half (1% of Japan's population currently trains in the arts). I agree that selling a belt just for a quick dollar is wrong, but I can't agree with the rest of that. I do wonder that you do, since you are teaching as well? Maybe I misunderstood something there.

Rob

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by waya
hmmmmmmm isn't that monopolizing? And a bit prejudiced as well? I realize that most arts "originated" in Japan or China. But to be honest there are records of parts of those fighting systems coming from the Middle East and Europe well before that.
What you are saying is basically that only a Japanese high ranking artist has the right to teach something no matter how hard any of the rest of us work at it, which lately the western half of the world trains more and harder than the Asian half (1% of Japan's population currently trains in the arts). I agree that selling a belt just for a quick dollar is wrong, but I can't agree with the rest of that. I do wonder that you do, since you are teaching as well? Maybe I misunderstood something there.

Rob

Monopolizing? Prejudiced? I said wouldn't it be better if we all had Japanese high grade instructors? You don't think that low level instructors should probably still be training and learning instead of teaching?

-Ozebob

[Kosokun]

Originally posted by Ozebob


Monopolizing? Prejudiced? I said wouldn't it be better if we all had Japanese high grade instructors? You don't think that low level instructors should probably still be training and learning instead of teaching?

-Ozebob


Waya, I see where you're coming from. I don't think you completely understand my Aussie Friend, since English is a second language to Australians. :love: Hi Bob! :love:

I suspect that he was thinking mainly of the Japanese arts, since as we all know, Australians consider Queensland to be the center of the universe, so they can be somewhat myopic! :p

Seriously though, knowing Bob like I do, if you substitute for "Japanese" the culture/country that the reader's art comes from, you'll have a more correct understanding of what he means.

For example I also study Hsing-i chuan. A Chinese art. If one considers Hsing-I in the context of the following:

"Wouldn't it be better if we all had Chinese high grade instructors? You don't think that low level instructors should probably still be training and learning instead of teaching?"

Within the context of Hsing-i, it makes sense.


Am I close, Bob?

Rob

[Andy Murray]

Posted by Ozebob

I've read through this thread but apologise if I am repeating what anyone else has said. I consider that there are too many people teaching karate at a low level, wouldn'tit be better if students supported Japanese Instructors of 5th Dan and above only?

I'm not trying to polarise the discussion in any way, I just want to point out a couple of things. The experience of an individual, and their capacity to teach become obvious to all over a period of time. The Chinese systems mentioned feel that 'teaching', is part of the learning process. You have to be 'taught' to teach. On attaining 5th Dan, I would imagine that an individual has taught a few times before, so was he therefore not a student teaching the art?

Posted by Kosokun

"Wouldn't it be better if we all had Chinese high grade instructors? You don't think that low level instructors should probably still be training and learning instead of teaching?"

I would say that the low level instruction you talk about is exactly that. Junior instructors learning their craft under the watchful eye of a senior mentor. These guys are the fifth dans of the future.
I personally saw no need to progress beyond 1st degree Black in my style. Possibly this allows you to say that I don't know my own knee from my elbow. I'll bet you I've been 1st Degree for a lot longer than a lot of 2nd, 3rd, fourth or fifth dans have held their titles.

Bees make honey. If you want the honey do you get rid of the bees?

[waya]

OK, I had thought you were saying that "only" High ranked Japanese (or whatever nationality) instructors should be allowed to teach, and noone else should. Yes, it would be nice if all of us could train under such an instructor, but unless the population changes it's impossible lol.

[Ozebob]

Thank you Gentlemen,

Can I put it another way, lets drop the rank and the nationality and substitute any art. Isn't it better to learn from and therefore support the most experienced, qualified (general) person if you wish to study an art?

How is it that inexperienced, unqualified wally's in the Martial Arts are able to hoodwink the public and teach that which they do not know? Why are students so silly to go to such pretenders in the first place? When a hamburger joint and a steakhouse are the same price why eat hamburger? Yes Rob, you were close : )

Ozebob

[Melanie]

Originally posted by Ozebob

How is it that inexperienced, unqualified wally's in the Martial Arts are able to hoodwink the public and teach that which they do not know? Why are students so silly to go to such pretenders in the first place? When a hamburger joint and a steakhouse are the same price why eat hamburger? Yes Rob, you were close : )

Ozebob

Hi Ozebob,

When I started in MA I was lucky to have a friend recommend me to a club. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that my friend was well informed or made a good decision about the instructor. What about if a beginner comes in with no friends in the MA in the first place - they wouldn't know that the Sensei was a "pretender".

[Ghostsuit]

Originally posted by Ozebob
How is it that inexperienced, unqualified wally's in the Martial Arts are able to hoodwink the public and teach that which they do not know? Why are students so silly to go to such pretenders in the first place?
Very easy to hoodwink someone who's never trained before. It's partly the students fault for not researchign about the school or trying different styles/instructors but it would take a while to realise someones a fake or not as skilled as you once thought when you started.When a hamburger joint and a steakhouse are the same price why eat hamburger? Maybe I've never tasted steak its easy to decide once you have experienced both but most people might not get the chance?

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Melanie


When I started in MA I was lucky to have a friend recommend me to a club. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that my friend was well informed or made a good decision about the instructor. What about if a beginner comes in with no friends in the MA in the first place - they wouldn't know that the Sensei was a "pretender".

Hi Mel,

I thinkfriends can be the worst guides of all, depending on their experience. An ex-yellow belt that couldnn't cut the training is not a very good reference to what may become a lifelong pursuit.

A dan grade in an art may pass on some real insights though. I believe that the public needs to be educated to realize that not all clubs and teachers are the same quality.

At present, the public accept at face value that martial arts, clubs and teachers are what they advertise as. We have kyu grades dressed up in black belts with white stripes maquerading as karate teachers these days.. sigh! :o

Regards,
Ozebob

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Ghostsuit
Very easy to hoodwink someone who's never trained before. It's partly the students fault for not researchign about the school or trying different styles/instructors but it would take a while to realise someones a fake or not as skilled as you once thought when you started. Maybe I've never tasted steak its easy to decide once you have experienced both but most people might not get the chance?

Hi,

I don't understand why more people do not do the research. I do understand that a goodteacher may not be available but it is annoying when potential members select the hamburger joint when the steak is available :)

Regards,
Ozebob

[Andy Murray]

How is it that inexperienced, unqualified wally's in the Martial Arts are able to hoodwink the public and teach that which they do not know? Why are students so silly to go to such pretenders in the first place? When a hamburger joint and a steakhouse are the same price why eat hamburger? Yes Rob, you were close : )

Now then. A couple of pages back, the guys had me imagining the whole thing. Now you come along Bob.

Icidentally, a 'wally' is a set of false teeth in my neighbourhood! lol

[Pablo]

Just a few thoughts:

The trouble with asking the customer to choose a good instructor, is the definition of 'good'.
Rank alone isn't a sufficient indicator since some styles use no rank, while others have developed a reputation for rank inflation, or politicizing the upper level rankings.

A window full of trophies says something, but what about the students who have a different focus? (I'm not saying that good competitors *can't* be good instructors, just that the one does not guarantee the other.)

Other outward signs of expertise, such as "taught the XYZ Special Forces", or "Law enforcement trainer for 15 years" sound great, but again, there is no standardization behind these claims.

So the desire to give the less than knowledgable student a benchmark of an instructor's quality is understandable.
The problem is knowing how to make quality a measurable commodity.
One method that many other fields use, is longevity in business, and thus the idea of the commercial/professional instructor gains some support. It is not a great method, but it is somewhat workable.

The alternative to such a lassez faire approach is to force an external (regulatory) framework on the MAs. This is problematic because of religious and familial transmissions within the MAs among other factors. Does anyone want the government to get into the mess of ruling on who originated what style, and who 'owns' what forms and techniques, or whether there is such a thing as Qi?

;)

FWIW

paul

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Ozebob


Hi,

I don't understand why more people do not do the research. I do understand that a goodteacher may not be available but it is annoying when potential members select the hamburger joint when the steak is available :)

Regards,
Ozebob

Getting bitter in your old age Bob? :D

Some people prefer burgers over steak, most kids do.

Not to mention that the general public gains its perception of the martial arts from the movies. If you want a realistic self-defence school, and go by that...

Besides even the instructors that know damn well they are only doing sport specific stuff advertise themselves as good for self-defence.

Anyone that is really serious about learning to fight doesn't look for karate or TKD, they look for BJJ, shootfighting or muay thai. Why? They do what research they can, realise that most karate is crap, karate fighters get beat up in competitions, and draw the logical conclusion.

Karate schools typically get those that don't do any research, because anyone that does the research doesn't go to a karate school. Let's face it, our image sucks right now.

Karate - restrictive, rigid, too much time doing kata (a useless practice) can't fight in the ring, outdated, fails to adapt, nothing but punches from the hip and kicks, etc.

Yep, sure is good more people don't do the research, they'd never sign up. And you, a shotokan stylist, they might learn that it was a watered down version of the Okinawan version taught as PT to college students in order to get them ready to serve in the Japanese army that uses unnatural stances and has lost all real martial applications.

So what are they to go by?

Rank? I can promote myself to 23rd dan and print a certificate up to prove it, not to mention not everyone uses the same system.

Time training? 2 years training, didn't forget for 25 years, just kept doing the same basics.

[Ozebob]

Hi Andrew,

You said:

"Getting bitter in your old age Bob?"

# Not at all.. frustrated, perplexed and confused as to the choices made and regretted and having to deal with those who have been training in nonsense.

"Some people prefer burgers over steak, most kids do."

# I'm hoping the parents make their choice for them.. I give my kids the best chance I can!

"Not to mention that the general public gains its perception of the martial arts from the movies. If you want a realistic self-defence school, and go by that..."

# From movies and well-meaning friends who mostly know diddly-squat :D

"Besides even the instructors that know damn well they are only doing sport specific stuff advertise themselves as good for self-defence."

# Yes, I see that and dislike it as you do.

"Anyone that is really serious about learning to fight doesn't look for karate or TKD, they look for BJJ, shootfighting or muay thai. Why? They do what research they can, realise that most karate is crap, karate fighters get beat up in competitions, and draw the logical conclusion."

# Ahh well most people are not looking to learn to fight. They are looking for a way to achieve personal growth, get fitter and healthier, and learn some self-defense. They definitely don't come to karate to get involved in competitions. 'Mostkarate' is too general a term or me. Your Country is different to mine, as is your experience and perception.

"Karate schools typically get those that don't do any research, because anyone that does the research doesn't go to a karate school. Let's face it, our image sucks right now. "

# They don't do the research and they should and they would find the better karate schools. Codswallop to your notion that karate has a poor image, the image is confused but not poor.

"Karate - restrictive, rigid, too much time doing kata (a useless practice) can't fight in the ring, outdated, fails to adapt, nothing but punches from the hip and kicks, etc."

# Do you actually do karate? LOL, I think you are a closet kickboxer. You refer to the karate that was more prevalent 10 years ago Andrew. Get out and smell the roses and see what others are doing now :)

"Yep, sure is good more people don't do the research, they'd never sign up. And you, a shotokan stylist, they might learn that it was a watered down version of the Okinawan version taught as PT to college students in order to get them ready to serve in the Japanese army that uses unnatural stances and has lost all real martial applications."

# Boy, are you out of date. Yes, I am Shotokan-based but that is a leneage not a sentence. The stances are for training purposes and Funakoshi stated that as one of his 20 precepts. Sure pleny stick to the PE training methods but even the PE Shotokaners can kick butt. There never were any 'martial' applications anyway, war is fought with weapons. Karate is a civil self defense art IMO.

# Since you mentioned I was a Shotokan stylist, you have opened the door to my training methods.. no 1-3-5 step in my dojo, a little marching for solo practise of the delivery system. Kata and applications, no practise of kata to get get better at practising kata.. we do train for competitions though.

"So what are they to go by?"

# I think they should research the art they are most attracted to, then go look at the options available and watch the training, read forums such as this, ask the instructors for their qualifications and check them out.

"Rank? I can promote myself to 23rd dan and print a certificate up to prove it, not to mention not everyone uses the same system."

# Yes, and when they checked out your 23rd Dan they would realise you are full of it :D

"Time training? 2 years training, didn't forget for 25 years, just kept doing the same basics."

I don't disagree with you, seen too many with one year repeated 20 - 30 years over. However when you look at the classes run by different instructors, you can see if the students are enjoying the training and whether it seems suited to what you have in mind.

Thanks Andrew,
Good points raised,
Bob ;)

[Andrew Green]

Hi Bob,

Originally posted by Ozebob

# Ahh well most people are not looking to learn to fight. They are looking for a way to achieve personal growth, get fitter and healthier, and learn some self-defense. They definitely don't come to karate to get involved in competitions. 'Mostkarate' is too general a term or me. Your Country is different to mine, as is your experience and perception.


Right, most are looking for a glorified Tae Bo. Primary reason, get in shape, secondary - learn some "self-defence" skills as well. All while having fun.


# Do you actually do karate? LOL, I think you are a closet kickboxer. You refer to the karate that was more prevalent 10 years ago Andrew. Get out and smell the roses and see what others are doing now :)


Well, these are not my opinions, but these are opinions that are commonly held about karate. And there are still a lot who train like this.


There never were any 'martial' applications anyway, war is fought with weapons. Karate is a civil self defense art IMO.


Can't argue with that, but we still use the term "martial" in reference to what we do, just look at the name of this site.

Civil self-defence & fighting though, don't forget many of the Okinawan's fought quite regularly.


# Since you mentioned I was a Shotokan stylist, you have opened the door to my training methods.. no 1-3-5 step in my dojo, a little marching for solo practise of the delivery system. Kata and applications, no practise of kata to get get better at practising kata.. we do train for competitions though.


Irrelevant, you can do everything you can think of differently, but that won't change how you are percieved by others who only did a search for Shotokan, and only asked questions about Shotokan.



# Yes, and when they checked out your 23rd Dan they would realise you are full of it :D


No, I could have it done in Japanese, the general public would never know. But just to be safe, I could make it an 8th or 9th dan. Who are they going to check it with, the person who gave it to me? He died a few years ago :p

[Andy Murray]

It seems to me that a lot of people posting, are getting agitated with each other. When we all start quoting each other and using each others words to make a point.

It is this polarisation between camps that makes some of the debates tiresome to read, because you can't see the points, for the point scoring!

The fact that we are all here with weapons at the ready, says a lot about us! That we believe in ourselves, that we believe in our Arts, and that we believe in a better Martial Arts Planet.

So long as we all make sure that we are part of the solution, not part of the problem!

Could someone please explain the difference between 'Tae Bo' and 'Glorified Tae Bo'? Is this a less commercial version?

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
,

1. Civil self-defence & fighting though, don't forget many of the Okinawan's fought quite regularly.

[B]

2. Irrelevant, you can do everything you can think of differently, but that won't change how you are percieved by others who only did a search for Shotokan, and only asked questions about Shotokan.

[B]

3. No, I could have it done in Japanese, the general public would never know. But just to be safe, I could make it an 8th or 9th dan. Who are they going to check it with, the person who gave it to me? He died a few years ago :p

1. How many? Very few.. and they were not encouraged to do so by their teachers. Many of the bouts were a version of 'push hands' and most followed a set of rules and a code of conduct. There were few matches held where anything goes.

The value of competitions can be seen in this light. Young guns like to test their claws and sensible instructors provide an outlet for this under the safest conditions possible IMO.

2. I don't agree it is irrelevant, many Shotokan Clubs are expanding their training curriculum and those well informed know that. Joe Public looks up karate not Shotokan.

3. The general public tell their friends and workmates about their training and wild claims end up being spread far and wide. The clever frauds stay underground and promote karate more than themselves.. they are the backyard mechanics passing off poor skills onto an unsuspecting public.

Regards,
Bob

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
It seems to me that a lot of people posting, are getting agitated with each other. When we all start quoting each other and using each others words to make a point.

It is this polarisation between camps that makes some of the debates tiresome to read, because you can't see the points, for the point scoring!

The fact that we are all here with weapons at the ready, says a lot about us! That we believe in ourselves, that we believe in our Arts, and that we believe in a better Martial Arts Planet.

So long as we all make sure that we are part of the solution, not part of the problem!

Could someone please explain the difference between 'Tae Bo' and 'Glorified Tae Bo'? Is this a less commercial version?

Hi Andy,

Sorry!

Bob

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Ozebob


1. How many? Very few.. and they were not encouraged to do so by their teachers. Many of the bouts were a version of 'push hands' and most followed a set of rules and a code of conduct. There were few matches held where anything goes.


Motobu springs to mind :)

Kyan did, and apparantely encouraged his students to do so.

Sokon Matsummura did.

Oral history is full of accounts of the old masters fighting.


2. I don't agree it is irrelevant, many Shotokan Clubs are expanding their training curriculum and those well informed know that. Joe Public looks up karate not Shotokan.


You said:

Since you mentioned I was a Shotokan stylist, you have opened the door to my training methods..


and if a person where to investigate Shotokan training practices they would not likely learn of your "new" approach, they would learn of the 1-3-5 step drills, and the repetitive marching up and down the dojo. Which IS still being done by many karate, not just Shotokan, and TKD schools.


3. The general public tell their friends and workmates about their training and wild claims end up being spread far and wide. The clever frauds stay underground and promote karate more than themselves.. they are the backyard mechanics passing off poor skills onto an unsuspecting public.


This can be a personal thing as well, many instructors refuse to promote themselves. I find the problem instructors are the ones who do promote themselves, usually excessively and on unsubstantiated claims.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
It seems to me that a lot of people posting, are getting agitated with each other. When we all start quoting each other and using each others words to make a point.


Quoting makes things a lot easier to follow. Pick up any philosophy article written as a response to something else and you will find quotes. Direct quoting also helps avoid making a strawman out of someone elses argument. As Rob has already pointed out, it is also proper net ettiquite.

[Ozebob]

Hi Andy,

Very few is correct.

I haven't seen every karate club so I can't comment on all.

What is a problem instuctor in your view?

Regards,
Bob

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Ozebob
Hi Andy,

Very few is correct.

I haven't seen every karate club so I can't comment on all.

What is a problem instuctor in your view?

Regards,
Bob

I would be more inclined to say very few didn't.

A problem instructor, for the purposes of this discussion, seems to be one with insufficient knowledge of what they are teaching and/or an inability to teach.

[Ozebob]

Well Andrew,

Perhaps we can agree to disagree on the Okinawans fighting habits and agree on the problem instructors.. :)

Regards,
Bob

[Freeform]

Yawn! Getting a sense of Deja Vu with all this quoting, but I'd have to agree that right now Karate has a image problem. And as for people 'learning to fight' I'm a cross-trainer (yeah I am, anyone got a problem with that, your systems crap ;) ) who as one of his primary goals seeks to improve his combat ability. Sure Muay Thai and kickboxing competitions look and are bloody vicious, if you find a good karate school that teaches its bunkai then you too have the 'oppertunity' to be a great fighter.

Thanx

[Andy Murray]

Quoting makes things a lot easier to follow. Pick up any philosophy article written as a response to something else and you will find quotes. Direct quoting also helps avoid making a strawman out of someone elses argument. As Rob has already pointed out, it is also proper net ettiquite.

Andrew, I agree with what you have written, but you just enforced the point I was making.

Bob quoted the same passage from my original post that you just did. The difference is that he quoted the whole thing, then replied. You quoted the first paragraph only.

Pretty much every one has agreed that trying to put our thoughts and feelings down on electric paper, is a limited form of communication. Ninjabumon, and Pesilat, who are both obviously accomplished writers as well as M Artists, have both made that point already.

It is important that we read the words of others carefully, to avoid picking up the wrong message. Response to any points raised should take into account the context in which they were raised. I don't know about 'net etiquette', that's just plain good manners!

In the meantime, I apologise if this post distracts anyone from following the thread!
:p

[Chazz]

OK people. Its good to see a topic carry on for so long but it seem to be getting a few people riled up about it. As a Mod. I’m just saying keep up the posting but remember to listen to the thoughts of others. No one side is always right. Let keep things civil in here so we don’t run any one off.

[Cooler]

Good point Chazz things seem to be getting a little silly of late. We are all here to discuss and learn not pick at each other.

Cooler

[Thomas Vince]

First of all absolutely no disrespect to Tae Kwon Do and it's students, let's all understand this now!
Tae Kwon do has "revolutionized" the martial arts world by getting people to thier black belt in 16 to 18 months! In many opinions they have ruined the martial arts. I don't say they have ruined the martial arts they merely "picked" their victim carefully and used a term that "Andy" pointed out, marketing. This powerful word has ruined the martial arts with easy belt requirements, and a false sense of security.
Now before anyone has heart a attack let me tell you this! I , yes the Kenpo man , took lesson and know quite well Mr. Parks. Anyone seriously into Tae Kon Do knows Mr. Parks he taught the special forces US Army and did tours in Viet Nam and ran secret missions and was and still is one of the only 2 and that teaches original TKD and a master to come from Korea and teach TKD in the US. His favorite subject is Hapkido. Tae Kwon Do is for beginners, Hapkido is for the real Warrior in many TKD hearts. But Korea picked the victim well and truly changed the interpretation of martial arts in the "new world" today.I say without a doubt that martial artist's today except for those I have met from the hard countries and hardcore are soft weak and will not survive. :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: Just so everyone should know, if you want to learn real Tae Kwon Do you must be korean and you must live in Korea and that standard has not changed even unto today, if you think not, you;re fooling yourself. Sorry if I offended anyone but this is true! The same reason Kung-Fu will not be taught until you shave your head and move to China and even then you will be prejudice against because you are not indiginous to the region, my experience and 5 years in a Buddhist Temple studying Chinese Kempo and meditation (pictures to prove it) is a constant none of us can overcome. That is why people like Ed Parker and Bruce Lee and others are so special because they fought hard to bring the knowledge to westerners!!!!

[Chazz]

WO WO WO.... 16 - 18 months!!!! Where are you getting this from? Every TKD school i know of takes 3.5 - 4.5 years to get their black belt.

You say "absolutely no disrespect to TKD" but then you write this. That is a straight dis. to everyone who has taken TKD from an american and a straight dis to ALL american TKD instructors.

You need to watch how you talk about soeone style. You may not like it and it may not mean a lot to you but there are many people out here that is does mean something to.

[waya]

Sadly Chazz he is right, I know of two schools here where a Bo Dan (probationary BB) can be had in 16 months

Rob

[Ozebob]

Hi All,

Why is time such a factor, surely competency is the over-riding factor. Kano created Judo after about 9 years of Jujutsu. Ohtsuka created Wado Ryu after 7years of karate although he did have a Menkyo Kaiden in Jujutsu.

The Dai Nippon Butokukai stipulates 3 years as a minimum to Shodan, a further year to nidan and 2 more to Sandan. Are they wrong?

I don't worry about the Black Belt part but my view on who should teach and create their own style is fairly rigid :)

Regards,
Bob

[waya]

I agree with that to an extent, but I have never seen anyone who deserved a black belt in under 3 years.

Rob

[Freeform]

In my original style I was told that nobody should even think the words 'Black Belt' until they had at least ten years experience.

[Thomas Vince]

Chazz,
It's not a dis and I do watch what i say. I need to look at your profile because I don't know where your from, What I say comes from observance and experience. Tae Kwon Do here in South Carolina, New York, Washington State, and in any country "except" Korea you can get your 1st dan in 16-18 months. THere are also some Tang Soo Do that will do the same, not nearly as many as Tae Kwon Do. The point of the post is that "no one style" has "commercialized" and profited from that "commercialization" as Tae Kwon Do. I know many excellent practictioners of this Art and even they will tell you the exact same thing, I am sorry if you got upset but the facts remain the same. I did not make this up. As far as time that's not the issue, it's the commercialization and the fact that American's don't want to wait five years or longer, they want it now!

[Ozebob]

Hi Rob,

Originally posted by waya
I agree with that to an extent, but I have never seen anyone who deserved a black belt in under 3 years.

Rob

Well then what does three years of training have to do with it?
Why is it 3? I know some that scoff at other styles for giving out BB's in 7 years, they believe it should be 9 years.

How many hours of training under what level of instruction should most people need to pass a Black Belt test then? Are we factoring in general classes with mixed grades, kids and adults in together?

Lets look at it another way, what if you had only 12 months to get a group of beginning adults through to BB? Could you do it? how? anyone want to comment?

Regards,
Bob

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Freeform
In my original style I was told that nobody should even think the words 'Black Belt' until they had at least ten years experience.

I was told a lot of crap as well.

Regards,
bob

[Thomas Vince]

People, People, People.
Please this is not about a "time factor" it is about "commercialization." I used the time factor because some TKD schools are using those numbners and time frames to market the goal of all MA students, that is acheiving a BB. I don't care what the time frame is the point is take a look in your local phone book or any newspaper ad for martial arts and what do you see? Boy it's getting hot in here!

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
People, People, People.
Please this is not about a "time factor" it is about "commercialization." I used the time factor because some TKD schools are using those numbners and time frames to market the goal of all MA students, that is acheiving a BB. I don't care what the time frame is the point is take a look in your local phone book or any newspaper ad for martial arts and what do you see? Boy it's getting hot in here!

Hot :)

What's wrong with a bit of topic drift? I'm interested in time frames so I welcome some opinions.

Thanks,
Bob

[Thomas Vince]

If your interested in time frames we have a 5 year requirement for BB. No one under the age of 18 and yearly requirements for each level of black after that. I have logged over 5,ooo hours of teaching time in the last 10 years and still need more for my 6th degree. Where I come from "time in the art" is much different than "time AT the art."
Thomas

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
If your interested in time frames we have a 5 year requirement for BB. No one under the age of 18 and yearly requirements for each level of black after that. I have logged over 5,ooo hours of teaching time in the last 10 years and still need more for my 6th degree. Where I come from "time in the art" is much different than "time AT the art."
Thomas

These were the questions I posed..

How many hours of training under what level of instruction should most people need to pass a Black Belt test then? Are we factoring in general classes with mixed grades, kids and adults in together?

Lets look at it another way, what if you had only 12 months to get a group of beginning adults through to BB? Could you do it? how? anyone want to comment?

Regards,
Bob

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Ozebob


These were the questions I posed..

How many hours of training under what level of instruction should most people need to pass a Black Belt test then? Are we factoring in general classes with mixed grades, kids and adults in together?


However many hours the person training them sees fit. Be it 1 year or 10 years, whatever the person giving out the rank feels the rank should be worth, that is what it is worth.



Lets look at it another way, what if you had only 12 months to get a group of beginning adults through to BB? Could you do it? how? anyone want to comment?

Regards,
Bob

Easy, Design a curriculum in which black belt is achieved after about a year.

Andrew

[Chazz]

Well goin back to the dreaded TKD clubs *L* our time line is something like this to just be qualified to test for probationary 1st dan. at least a lil over 450 hours, at least 3.5 - 4 years, 20 hours for partial teaching extra and 3 class totally taught. Must be at 2 classes a week, then must know so much of the history of TKD and Korea and so on. there are more but i think you get the idea of our school.

"Lets look at it another way, what if you had only 12 months to get a group of beginning adults through to BB? Could you do it? how? anyone want to comment?"

No! I dont think that i could and in my heart be honest with my self. I dont think that they could fully inderstant the information they need to know by black belt. I mean yeah they may know all or most of the forms but there is a lot more than that. There is the mental aspects as well.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by chazz982001
Well goin back to the dreaded TKD clubs *L* our time line is something like this to just be qualified to test for probationary 1st dan. at least a lil over 450 hours, at least 3.5 - 4 years, 20 hours for partial teaching extra and 3 class totally taught. Must be at 2 classes a week, then must know so much of the history of TKD and Korea and so on. there are more but i think you get the idea of our school.


But that is not true of all TKD schools, I know of at least one multi school one that will guaranty a black belt after two years.

And 450 hours, I got students that do that in 1 year.

3.5 - 4 years these are your standards, not "The standards" there are none.


"Lets look at it another way, what if you had only 12 months to get a group of beginning adults through to BB? Could you do it? how? anyone want to comment?"

No! I dont think that i could and in my heart be honest with my self. I dont think that they could fully inderstant the information they need to know by black belt. I mean yeah they may know all or most of the forms but there is a lot more than that. There is the mental aspects as well.

You perhaps could not with your current requirements, but to many your requirements for black are far too low and none of your black belts should be wearing the belt.

Oh well, Thats the way it is, if someone wants to give shodan after 3 months training thats their call, its worth 3 months training, it is not equal to one that can't realisitically be done in under 7 years.

I'm sorry but if you want to say bad things about a school, say it about what they teach, not their fashion sense. (although camo-gis/star spangled pygamas/etc. maybe...)

[waya]

Bob,
I don't really believe in a specific time frame for achieving 1st Dan, I think that is specific to the individual student and how much time, effort, and themselves they dedicate to training. I used the three year mark as a reference since it is the fastest I have seen someone get there and it not be a "bought" rank. Personally it took me 5 years in Shotokan under the JKA syllabus and has taken me just over 3 in TKD which I will be testing for in about a month. I think looking at a person and saying "in X years you will be a 1st Dan" is the equivilent of selling the belt. I can't look at anyone and say exactly how long it will take since different people work at a different pace and have either more or less dedication to their specific art.

Could I take a group to 1st Dan in one year? Give them to me for the full 365 days 24 hours a day and I could. No distractions and nothing but training and yes, I think it is definitely possible. For people who have a family and work full time, possibly also going to school, I don't believe it can happen. I may be wrong but that's my .02.

Rob

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by waya
Bob,
I don't really believe in a specific time frame for achieving 1st Dan, I think that is specific to the individual student and how much time, effort, and themselves they dedicate to training.

# Did you give any consideration to the teacher and the way in which the material to be covered is taught and presented?

I used the three year mark as a reference since it is the fastest I have seen someone get there and it not be a "bought" rank.

# Do you automaticaly assume hose that pass in a shorter time frame must have bought their belt?

Personally it took me 5 years in Shotokan under the JKA syllabus

# So why did you leave?

and has taken me just over 3 in TKD which I will be testing for in about a month.

# So with 5 years of training in Japanese Shotokan, it has taken 3 years in Korean Shotokan to achieve the same result? That's incredible.. what have you learned that you didn't already know?

I think looking at a person and saying "in X years you will be a 1st Dan" is the equivilent of selling the belt. I can't look at anyone and say exactly how long it will take since different people work at a different pace and have either more or less dedication to their specific art.

# No, you are already pre-judging by stating a minimum time, aren't you?

Could I take a group to 1st Dan in one year? Give them to me for the full 365 days 24 hours a day and I could. No distractions and nothing but training and yes, I think it is definitely possible. For people who have a family and work full time, possibly also going to school, I don't believe it can happen. I may be wrong but that's my .02.

# I have done it in a special intensive course. The participants were able to hold their own in competition with other Black Belts.
It has been done in Japan.

Rob

Thanks Rob

[waya]

Bob,
I think you misunderstood me. I am talking about the general public. Those that train maybe 3 days a week, one or two hours a day. I know some people can devote more time and effort than others, hence I don't believe in a specific set time. 3 years just happens to be the fastest I have seen.

As for leaving Shotokan, I left after receiving my Nidan because of the politics and arguements. If you take my total time in training it actually took 12 years for my Shodan, but I started as a very small child. I still do train in the art, just not primarily as I used to. (BTW my total time in martial arts is 21 years if you count children's classes as well and 17 if you don't)

In TKD I learned kickingthat was never covered before, which I have enjoyed working with. But all the techniques were really fairly identical.

Rob

[Thomas Vince]

That's sounds like a great thread you should post it up and let us talk about it! Can't answer it now you set my brain of fire, oh no only 12 months I think I'll send them to BOOT CAMP and give them an m16 when we're done? There was a name Hank Slomansky he taught Elvis and ranked him as a Shodan prior to Ed taking him on, this guy also taught Dan Inosanto prior ro Ed Parker teaching him. This guy was real tough 119 consecutive wins in the Kumite in Japan, but people would be sent to him just for the fact that if they did not quit they were considered tough and were awarded black belt after only a feww short months. Elvis got his Shodan in 9 months!
Thomas

[Thomas Vince]

In regards to commercialization there is another underlying way to attract new students and that is by displaying hundreds of trophies in the window. Most of these trophies are from inner tournaments and what i find interesting in my area is the term "American Karate." This is a loose slang term for instructors to use when they made the stuff up themselves and are frontlining because they want the money. I also the term "Home of Champions" that some places will paint on their walls. I feel that this type of commercialization is also giving a false sense of security, hey great you got a trophy but gee my butt got kicked last night in the streets , what went wrong?

[Greyghost]

How can you possibly earn a BB after 1 year. There is more to earning a BB than just being able to physically preform the Kata.

A student has no understanding of why they preform the forms, or why and how the forms were created...."McDojo" says it all....its fast food, a quick fix...dare i say it...junk food.

What good is ability without the wisdom to temper it? :woo:

Like rob....it took me 12 years to achieve my Black Belt.

Was it worth the wait...damn right.

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by fraser halliday
How can you possibly earn a BB after 1 year. There is more to earning a BB than just being able to physically preform the Kata.

# Could you qualify that for me please? What is the 'more' of which you speak?

A student has no understanding of why they preform the forms, or why and how the forms were created...."McDojo" says it all....its fast food, a quick fix...dare i say it...junk food.

# You ass-u-me that. Many train for years and teach and have no clue. McMahon's McDojo :)) Don't think so!

What good is ability without the wisdom to temper it? :woo:

# Wisdom is not taught nor a requirement for BB. I don't see BB's are all-wise, simply as having qualified as serious students of the art.

Like rob....it took me 12 years to achieve my Black Belt.

# Were you a slow learner or did you not train often enough? Why did it take 12 years? What style or art are we talking about here?

Was it worth the wait...damn right.

# Because after 12 years you are so much better than other Black Belts? Please clarify?


regards,
Bob

[Thomas Vince]

If your referring to Elvis and the 9 months, he actually had a Shodan from a Korean art while he was in the Army there. When he came to Ed Parker, Ed wanted to know if he was tough enough to stick it out, he was because Hank Slomansky was a measuring stick for toughness. After he survived Hank, Ed took him as well as Priscilla Presley as private students.

[waya]

Like rob....it took me 12 years to achieve my Black Belt.

# Were you a slow learner or did you not train often enough? Why did it take 12 years? What style or art are we talking about here?


Bob, for me it was my age. I was 15 when I got my Shodan, but I feel it was worth the wait because I understood alot more and had matured alot in training that I never would have been able to do had I progressed faster. I knew all the technical requirements long before this but I would never have gone any further without having the "right" attitude.

Rob

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by waya


Bob, for me it was my age. I was 15 when I got my Shodan, but I feel it was worth the wait because I understood alot more and had matured alot in training that I never would have been able to do had I progressed faster. I knew all the technical requirements long before this but I would never have gone any further without having the "right" attitude.

Rob

Rob,

It would have not hurt to have mentioned that before.. some styles don't give out Black Belts to kids at all so the time period is not relevant in a general discussion without the rider that you are talking about Black Belt gradings for kids.

Regards,
Bob

[waya]

lol I forgot to mention my age at the time. At 15 I was the youngest Shodan my instructor ever promoted

[Freeform]

Why is time such a factor? Surely it should come down to ability, dedication and perseverence.

Thanx

[Ozebob]

Freeform,

It is a factor and we are discussing that out of interest.

Thank you,
bob

[Cooler]

Ok lets take the discussion about belts over to the thread about Black belt in 12 months. As it is starting to wear thin in this section and I feel a few people are starting to get a bit touchy about the whole subject. Lets remember that everyone is entitled to there opinion and not to be picked at for it.

We are here to discuss and form friendships not to pick at each other.

Cooler (trying to keep the peace)

[Greyghost]

OZEBOB,

Thank you for your concern in my training.

I have been training for twelve years in Lau Gar Kung-Fu.

Am i a slow learner...possibly...does that make me any less of a person or does it take away from my achievement of obtaining my BB. No, i don't think so...i think the time i took to reach that grade reflected the commitment and respect i have for my Art.

i suppose i could have rushed through it in 1 year but i would rather not end up repeating kata parrot fashion...i would rather have fully understood what i was doing and why i was doing it.

I hope this answers all of your questions.

9/10 must try harder.

:)

[Ozebob]

Hi Frazer,

How do you get a BB in Kung Fu? I thought you had a different ranking system? BTW it bothers me not if someone is graded in 12 months or 12 years, there is no universal standard but in most places there is a local standard to b maintained amongst one's peers. I just find it strange that some are proud to have taken la long time and wondered how they justify that.. usually they cannot.

regards,
Bob

[Andy Murray]

Hi Bob,

Kung Fu is considered to be a collective description of the Chinese Combative Arts, at least in the West anyway!

Just as the different Japanese systems promote or recognise 'rank' differently, so do the Chinese.

Some Chinese schools have no outward visible symbol of rank. It is visible by the amount, and depth of knowledge an individual has of their system relative to the other practitioners. If sufficiently qualified.......the individual may be asked to teach.

Black Belt in the system of discussion between yourself and Fraser, is awarded to an individual who has shown loyalty, patience, determination, courage, persistence, technical excellence, consistency, an aptitude for teaching and moral standards. The time taken to Black Belt is really irrelevant. I guess in some systems Fraser could have taken up he would be a sixth dan by now. The value of such material aims is grossly exaggerated though.

I respect that other arts may do things a little differently. this works for us however.

Andy Murray

[Ozebob]

Hi Andy,

So you have adopted a Japanese ranking symbol even though the value of such a material aim is grossly exaggerated? Do you
see the irony in that?

Bob

[Andy Murray]

Hi Bob,

YES.

Andy

[Cooler]

I'm coming in here again as certain people just seem to be aimlessly picking about the same subject over and over again and I have to say I'm getting pretty tired of it as I'm sure other people are.I just find it strange that some are proud to have taken la long time and wondered how they justify that.. usually they cannot. What exactly does that statement mean? Are you getting at people who take a long period of time to get a black belt? Now according to you it is quite acceptable to gain a black belt in 1 or 2 years yet to take a long time seems to be unacceptable and even be something to be ashamed of. I find this a very strange point of view but hey maybe that's just me?

To get back to belts, the problem comes down to how the belt is perceived and not just by the practitioner but by joe blogs in the street they associate the black belt with being a master in the martial arts. Whereas most styles associate the black belt with a practitioner having learned there basics and is now ready to take on the more advanced and in-depth study of the art. If the later is true then getting your black in 1 or 2 years is not a problem as you are just entering the real study of your art, but if you gain your black belt in the same time scale and think yourself a master of the art then you are sadly mistaken or you study a very shallow art.

Cooler.

[Melanie]

Er...I know I'm not a BB but after reading through the previous 9 pages, it was suggested that belts were a retention tool. I think to a degree that is true myself.

There is also the element of hardcore students that have developed a genuine interest in the MA. They are the ones that train every chance they get with a qualified instructor, buy videos and books, attend every known seminar? This is what I interprete as Commercialisation. If you haven't got the money - you don't benefit. How many more hardcore students would you get if we didn't have to pay to organisations and memberships? I am well aware of liability insurance (for my sins I was an Insurance Broker :( ) the cost of hiring out a hall/dojo, but how many instructors do MA full-time? The usual instructor has a full time job, they don't need the money. A lot of dojos ask that you get your own Gi and belt anyway. If you want to by pads, boards, mats etc, the smaller dojos just bundle some money together from the students and buy some. How many instructors offer free classes? There are now quite a few clubs that don't even do gradings anymore (admittedly I have only found them in America and Canada!) - Hmm I have said a lot there....waffling :( Thoughts and comments please :D

Melanie

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Cooler
I'm coming in here again as certain people just seem to be aimlessly picking about the same subject over and over again and I have to say I'm getting pretty tired of it as I'm sure other people are.What exactly does that statement mean? Are you getting at people who take a long period of time to get a black belt? Now according to you it is quite acceptable to gain a black belt in 1 or 2 years yet to take a long time seems to be unacceptable and even be something to be ashamed of. I find this a very strange point of view but hey maybe that's just me?

#Maybe it is just you. I said that some feel that taking a very long time equates to being a 'better' Black Belt. Then I discovered that one of these is a kung fu practitioner using a Japanese ranking system.. the discussion stopped there for me until this missive from you.

To get back to belts, the problem comes down to how the belt is perceived and not just by the practitioner but by joe blogs in the street they associate the black belt with being a master in the martial arts. Whereas most styles associate the black belt with a practitioner having learned there basics and is now ready to take on the more advanced and in-depth study of the art. If the later is true then getting your black in 1 or 2 years is not a problem as you are just entering the real study of your art, but if you gain your black belt in the same time scale and think yourself a master of the art then you are sadly mistaken or you study a very shallow art.

# Shodan is like getting your drivers license, you are no master. If we look at years in the art then 12 years is sufficient to attain a 3rd or a 4th Dan at least, depending on your age and other factors..

Cooler.

Over and out,
Bob

[Thomas Vince]

Ozebob,
You think maybe this thread is about "commercialism" and "not about belts" that's the issue. I must apologize for even mentioning TKD and the 16 - 18 mo's I thought everyone could handle other opinions, it is not the belt issue here man cool your jets! It's about comercialism in the martial arts, if you have a comment about the belt timeline then please so we can all take an objective view on it post it on the 12 months to black belt thread I started in light of these on going and unfortunately misguided conversations. I have noticed that you have a great deal of insight and information on the MA's and I think you would be more appreciated if you placed the responses in another format, your really not getting the attention your due here.
Thomas

[Andy Murray]

I'm coming in here again as certain people just seem to be aimlessly picking about the same subject over and over again and I have to say I'm getting pretty tired of it as I'm sure other people are.

If this is me, 'boring' everybody with the same old drivel Cooler, then I apologise! We keep 'pounding the same old post' cos we all feel our message is important. Not realising the neighbours are trying to sleep!

#Maybe it is just you. I said that some feel that taking a very long time equates to being a 'better' Black Belt.

No one is saying that Bob. Simple misunderstanding. No offence taken or suggested. These comments are beneath all of us. I'm sorry if I made it difficult to move on!

Andy Murray

[Kosokun]

Bob Wrote:
I just find it strange that some are proud to have taken la long time and wondered how they justify that.. usually they cannot

Originally posted by Cooler
.What exactly does that statement mean? Are you getting at people who take a long period of time to get a black belt? Now according to you it is quite acceptable to gain a black belt in 1 or 2 years yet to take a long time seems to be unacceptable and even be something to be ashamed of. I find this a very strange point of view but hey maybe that's just me?

Cooler.

We had a bad situation out here on this side of the pond, and I'm sure in the land of OZ within the traditional karate community.

The US instructors of non-Japanese citizenship weren't that highly ranked, so couldn't promote people to Black belt until they, themselves went up in rank. Consequently, they kept people down in the kyu ranks artificially longer than necessary, when compared to organizations and countries with higher ranked Japanese instructors.

It was really bad within the US Affiliate of the JKA. so much so, that it splintered into the ISKF and then into the AJKA. What was happening was that the Japanese instructors in the AAKF and then the ISKF were not promoting their American students to ranks equivalent to their Japanese counterparts. In fact, many of the American karateka had more years in training than some of the people coming from the JKA, Japan, yet, they weren't ranked as high.

Even now, I'm hearing that James Fields is being promoted to 7th dan, finally. Long, long overdue.

There appeared to be a bamboo cieling that existed for no objective reason. So, what was going on was that people were being held back, for no really justifiable reason.

I refer you to "Shotokan Karate: It's History and Evolution" By Randall Hassel

I think that's where Bob was coming from.

Rob

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Melanie
Er...I know I'm not a BB but after reading through the previous 9 pages, it was suggested that belts were a retention tool. I think to a degree that is true myself.


They are.


There is also the element of hardcore students that have developed a genuine interest in the MA. They are the ones that train every chance they get with a qualified instructor, buy videos and books, attend every known seminar?


As a beginning student you won't get much out of books and videos that your instructor can't provide. Seminars, In my opinion are overrated, if its of the same style its usually the same stuff you do in class anyway.


This is what I interprete as Commercialisation. If you haven't got the money - you don't benefit.


Thats the way it is with everything though, You need money to take music lessons, you need money to join a health club, you need money to go to school. Those with more money get the better product, those with lots can fly to Okinawa and train there.
[/B][/QUOTE]


How many more hardcore students would you get if we didn't have to pay to organisations and memberships?


Lets look at it from the other side. How many students would value it less if it was free? How many wouldn't worry about missing classes? Percieved value is a factor, if people pay more, they value it more.


I am well aware of liability insurance (for my sins I was an Insurance Broker :( ) the cost of hiring out a hall/dojo, but how many instructors do MA full-time?

Quite a few


The usual instructor has a full time job, they don't need the money.


Maybe, but I'm sure they could use a little extra spending money, pay of the mortgage sooner, retire sooner, go on a trip, etc.


How many instructors offer free classes?


Depends on what you want, if you want a nice facility, matted floors, classes every day, training equipment, etc. Those things cost money. They also require someone to put a lot of effort into running the business and teaching the classes. That person needs an income.

I've taught for free, at one time I ran a class where none of the students payed anything, they came and went as they pleased, noone got really far, It was a small space with a hard floor, we had practically no equipment, etc.

Now I have far more students training 2-3+ times a week, I have a dedicated facility, I teach 6 days a week, I have a 2' thick wrestling mat for the whole floor, heavy bags, body shields, focus mitts, forearm pads, far more training weapons.

There are certainly trade offs between doing it as a small club that just makes enough to pay the rent in a building you can get when noone else is there with instructors who have other priorities (work) and doing it full time. Having done both I definately prefer doing it full time.


There are now quite a few clubs that don't even do gradings anymore (admittedly I have only found them in America and Canada!) - Hmm I have said a lot there....waffling :( Thoughts and comments please :D

Melanie

There are more of us then you think, I still issue belts, I just don't do tests. This is the way the founder of my style did it, but is not the way it was done when I trained.

The only problem I have is charging money for promotions. The students pay the tuition, they should not have to pay to be recognised as having progressed. Imagine a University charging you every time you took a test or wrote an exam on top of tuition.

As this is a commercialisation thread I put that up as one of the things I think has become a problem. The nickle and diming of students. At some schools it seems after tuition is paid they still charge you every time you want to go to the bathroom or pass gas.

[Andrew Green]

#Maybe it is just you. I said that some feel that taking a very long time equates to being a 'better' Black Belt.



Originally posted by Andy Murray


No one is saying that Bob. Simple misunderstanding. No offence taken or suggested. These comments are beneath all of us. I'm sorry if I made it difficult to move on!

Andy Murray

Yes this is implied. As soon as someone starts claiming that after one year one cannot possibly be good enough to wear a black belt. Since in their school it takes 6+ years the school that gives it after a year obviously has inferior standards.

However I believe that it is at least possible for the school that gives out black belt after 1 year to have higher standards in any way that actually counts. If after 5 years training more is expected, what rank the person is at that point means nothing.

After 5 years student at school A is 3rd dan, and has 50 karate knowledge points.

After 5 years student at school B is 2nd kyu, and has 35 karate knowledge points.

School A requires 20 points for shodan, school B 40.

Who's standards are higher?

[Andy Murray]

Ok, I realise this topic has been transferred across to 'Black Belt in twelve months', so we should all be across there by now.

Can we move across with this little idea?

Ok, Andrew Green asked.

Who's standards are higher?

Commercialisation has made more arts adopt the Belt system, as it is a student retention tool!

Does that mean that the public view a Black Belt in say TKD as being better than a Black Belt in Karate?

Answers across on 'Black Belt in twelve weeks ( I mean months )'

Andy Murray:)

[Freeform]

Here's a good thread for some of the newer member to read at their leisure.

Please only post a reply if you've read the whole thing.

Thanks,

Colin