Space

[Togakure]

Has anyone ever wondered where space itself came from?

I dont mean the universe, but the actual area that that enables the univese to exist.

As I understand it 'space' as we think of the word is created as the universe exspanded and exspands, but what about the area outside the universe that the universe exists 'in'? where did it come from? and where did the other dimentions come from? (there where around before the big bang where they not?, but not sure if there are tied in with that)

My mind boggles at the idea that from abosolutely nothing at all a universe can pop into existance and evolve into such an amazing and complex thing that it has.

Ive read articles which say that its possible for a universe to come into existance 'free'(ie: it takes no energy) but how and why did the area around it (is hyperspace the correct term?) come exist in the first place?

I suppose what im wondering is how that first tiny thing in a chain of events came into being, how can there be oblivion at one 'moment' and then somthing, anything suddenly exist that wasnt there before?

I am a spiritual person but have not put my views of that into what ive written here, I beleive in 'God' but I think God would still operate 'existance' in a logical and explanational way, so there must be answers (scientificly speaking) how and why that very first thing (and the area for that thing to exist) came into being.

I hope some of this makes sense!

[Kosh]

I dont mean the universe, but the actual area that that enables the univese to exist.


Does the universe need a container?

*Hyperspace refers to the higher dimensions which the universe stretches into, which we cant directly perceive.

**dimensions meaning geometric dimensions like height, not the scifi meaning of dimensions (as in parallel dimensions) which people get confused.

Which is weird because the term 'dimension' meaning measurement is far more common in terms of use than 'dimension' meaning other universes. yet for some reason people always get them confused when the concept is fairly simple.

[Scarlet Mist]

I am a spiritual person but have not put my views of that into what ive written here, I beleive in 'God' but I think God would still operate 'existance' in a logical and explanational way, so there must be answers (scientificly speaking) how and why that very first thing (and the area for that thing to exist) came into being.



It's just that. I don't think God operates in a "logical" manner, or God's logic is entirely different from ours ie ours is severly limited. We are incapable of wholly processing concepts like eternity and infinity because we live within boundaries of time and finity ... etc.

As for your other questions. If you really want an answer you are about 250 or more years early. Science today has no clue (regardless of what the scientists would have you think) what's going on out there and what space is. Ever heard of dark matter - that's all it is, dark matter, we don't even know it exists, we just guess it's presence because of patterns in which matter is arranged and gravity calculations. Apparently we can't see it because it doesn't interact with anything in the electromagnetic spectrum ... go figure ...

[Togakure]

Does the universe need a container?

*Hyperspace refers to the higher dimensions which the universe stretches into, which we cant directly perceive.

**dimensions meaning geometric dimensions like height, not the scifi meaning of dimensions (as in parallel dimensions) which people get confused.

Which is weird because the term 'dimension' meaning measurement is far more common in terms of use than 'dimension' meaning other universes. yet for some reason people always get them confused when the concept is fairly simple.

Well I know what dimension means, I wasnt speaking in it of terms of 'parellell dimentions', but of up down forward backward ect, but dimension in spacial terms (i think)does not always mean a measurement of somthing, hyperspace for instance is considered a dimension in string theory.

String theory has suggested we live on the 'membrain' of a donut shaped spherical object, and within that object is 'hyperspace', I think I understand what hyperspace is now(I was formaly thinking it was the area where universes are thought to be 'floating', but from further reading I think its the space 'within' the 'donut' our universe exists on), but if string theory is correct, what is the place where the our universe and perhaps countless universes exist?, and where did it come from, and I dont mean any of the things or physics that exist within our universe but what exists outside of it and how it got there.

Scarlet mist is right though, we will proably not know for a long time to come, if ever, so I suppose we can only speculate.

[Vanir]

Has anyone ever wondered where space itself came from?Yes. This is the question currently facing Superstring theorists. It was the one Quantum Physics broke down at and is far too generalized in classical Relativity.

I dont mean the universe, but the actual area that that enables the univese to exist.According to GR it is integral to the universe itself (known as the Anthropic principle). Thus far the data suggests a model of flat, curved space-time which is infinite, although by composition it is expanding at an increasing rate (due to a negative or "dark energy").
What this means is that for anything inside the universe it is as infinite in size at any point in its past, even though the model of composition is altered in apparent size. We discern our Earthbound perspectives of the universe through the use of Hubble Volumes, or the rate of expanding light from a central, given point against the backdrop of an expanding media, over time.
Hence we have the observable and the physical universe. At any rate anything outside the universe cannot exist in physical space. It is in another dimension, which is entirely unsupported by the evidence. If you travelled forever in any one direction, at any time during the existence of the universe, you would travel forever within the universe. It is infinite, but theorists can express it with a model you can place "over there" and look at.

Another term for "space" (aside from the theorists favorite of spacetime) is simply a "zero point energy field." This is because the best guess at the composition of space itself (not matter as such), as an entity is a place where atoms stop being dynamic without some outside influence. It has no inherent energy but the Big Bang's residual heat of 2.7 Kelvin in the microwave bandwidth.
Atoms stop working at about 3 or 4 Kelvin.
Other terms include the Quantum field and (somewhat loosely) the Electromagnetic Field, depending on your specialized field of physics. All much of a muchness but it's definitely a physical/non-physical entity. It could even be what we've been calling gravity all this time and the effects we've been labelling are in fact "holes" or a thinning of uniform space in some wierd way, caused by the presence of matter and its electrodynamic nature. Kind of like having an area in a pool of "thinned water" where you are swimming, in which you fall "towards" upon entering, rather than a force of attraction being exerted upon you as such.

As I understand it 'space' as we think of the word is created as the universe exspanded and exspands, but what about the area outside the universe that the universe exists 'in'? where did it come from? and where did the other dimentions come from? (there where around before the big bang where they not?, but not sure if there are tied in with that)There are four dimensions of Spacetime. String theorists ponder an extra, spatial dimension (circumference), but the 11-22 dimensions of Superstring/String Theory are the reason it is not established. They mean the math is incomplete, due to being uncorroberated by nature, which has the four we can detect. Correct proceedure it may be, thus far but incomplete nonetheless.
Time is not even a dimension unto itself. The four dimensions are length, breadth, height and Minkowski space. The fourth dimension itself is an object existing in physical reality (ie. in spacetime).
Thus spacetime is a description which beings within a universe can only give it. The universe cannot exist without it because it is its physical description as a body, which itself does not independantly exist.
See the Anthropic Principle here?

My mind boggles at the idea that from abosolutely nothing at all a universe can pop into existance and evolve into such an amazing and complex thing that it has.As you astutely point out, no evidence whatsoever suggests that a universe popped into existence and evolved. Just that it evolved. However it is no more complex now than it was at the first instant, just looks a little different in the model :D (<--wry sarcasm, sorry).

Ive read articles which say that its possible for a universe to come into existance 'free'(ie: it takes no energy) but how and why did the area around it (is hyperspace the correct term?) come exist in the first place?It cannot. Anything which was present at the formation of the universe is an integral part of it, which is present at this very moment. Probably measurable too, if you get the right instrumentation and/or develope the right sciences.

I am a spiritual person but have not put my views of that into what ive written here, I beleive in 'God' but I think God would still operate 'existance' in a logical and explanational way, so there must be answers (scientificly speaking) how and why that very first thing (and the area for that thing to exist) came into being.I agree with what you have said here. I find it ludicrous to suggest that an omnipotent power is involved in a conspiracy to convince mankind of anything at all. Physical evidence cannot challenge what it does not deal with, nor can it be refuted by it. It simply deals with what it's about. Physical sciences, as the name suggests are based on physical evidence. Theoretical ones by their implications and strenuously corroberated. It's how we came up with microprocessors, for one.

For intuition, you'll have to deal with that one yourself. But on "other dimensions outside the physical universe" my answer is obvious and suggested by the evidence. You're in them, all around you. Same way everything that went into an F-15 Eagle fighterjet was lying around in the time of the ancient Sumerians.

[Rojininstructor]

Well said Vanir.

[TaichiWave]

Its like the Chicken Egg question kinda. It blows up our heads in the end.

[Togakure]

Thanks for your exellent reply, and info Vanir, its given me alot to think about :)

[Jiraiya]

Some of this went a bit over my head, but my hunch is that the universe is on a cycle of expansion and collapse. I say hunch because last time I checked the scientific evidence doesn't currently support that. But it makes sense to me... the universe was compressed into an infinitely small point, exploded outwards, will eventually slow down and collapse back upon itself. Then it will begin again.

As to what was "outside' the universe before it exploded out... um.. nothing, I guess. I don't think the universe has a container, I think it is a container.