Banned Exercises

[Andy Murray]

I come from a family filled with PE teachers. Over the years there have been many changes made in the views of what is deemed to be safe practice. Bunny Hops anybody? ( not for me thanks ).

In a strange scenario, I had always done various types of pushups in training as my Instructor told me to. Fingertips, knuckles, Backs of the wrists etc. I fully accepted that these were necessary in developing body weapons. I noticed one of my students, was 'pretending' to do pushups on the knuckles one night, so I held him back at the end of the class and asked if there was a problem. He said that he had read somewhere that pushups like this could lead to osteoporosis. My answer was that they were to develop wrist strength and bone alignment, so that if he ever had to punch someone, he wouldn't break his wrist!

In the above scenario; was I right or wrong?

Do you perform exercises you are unsure of?

What exercises are banned in your club?

[Cooler]

Personally I think you were right Andy unless a student has a proper medical reason for not doing an exercise then I feel he is being disrespectful to the teacher. And a proper medical reason does not mean I read it somewhere. If a student has a problem with an exercise then they should discuss it with there teacher.

At the end of the day it is the teachers responsibility to look after his students therefor they should look into whether an exercise is safe or not. If you go to a class and the teacher is putting everyone through exercises you know to be bad for you then you should make the choice of whether you want to stay with that teacher if so then you should respect that teacher and his/her methods, until you are at a sufficient level where you feel you can approach the teacher and discuss the exercises.

There are a lot of traditional teachers out there still teaching the way they were taught (not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing) but I feel it would be insulting to them to walk into a class first day a say I wont perform that exercise because.....

Cooler.

[Freeform]

Its the reasponsibility of the instructor to know what is good/bad for the student. Its the students responsibiliy to tell the instructor of any special illness/condition.

Not doing a prescribed technique/exercise is showing disrespect to the instructor and should be punished by...... press-ups!

[Andy Murray]

Our knowledge of Biology, Physiology & Psychology has changed dramatically over the last hundred years. In terms of sports medicine, our understanding of joints and soft body tissue, is really something recently formed.

You only have to look up the various columns in this forum to see terms like Plyometric & Isometric. These were relatively unheard of Thirty years ago.

I would never assume to tell an Instructor that he was ignorant of safe practice. I would simply never return to that club.

The public/consumer, hold the Instructor/product responsible for their own safety. I feel that it is no longer acceptible to damage students with the " good enough for me, good enough for you attitude "

Ask yourself; If my Instructor teaches me Knife defences, which then get me killed...............how do I sue?

[djhallib]

Bump - like they say in some forums when bringing an old thread back to the top :)

Was browsing back and thought this was an interesting thread.

I'd like to add ballistic streching to this also. All my instructors have used them and I "read somewhere" (hehe) that they slowly cause injuries and shouldnt be done.

There are no "banned" exercises in my club though, as far as I know at least.

[Kof_Andy]

I'm a gymnist and there are a lot of other way to strengthen the wrist other than doing push up on the back of the wrist. I'm with your student on this one, doing back hand push up is really bad for the wrist joint. It really strength nothing, but give you early joint problem. A student is responsible for there own safety, not always the instructor. If the student spot something they think is dangerous to do, then have the right to skip it. Least he didnt speak up in class, but did it in a different manner and I think thats a sign of his respect to you already. Instructors are also human, there are also flaws in our teaching. Anyway back to the topic. A more recommended way for wrist strengthening is squeezing a tennis ball. Is a command drill for gymnist.

[XremeBlvr]

Originally posted by Kof_Andy
I'm a gymnist and there are a lot of other way to strengthen the wrist other than doing push up on the back of the wrist. I'm with your student on this one, doing back hand push up is really bad for the wrist joint.

the way i read the post was that they were doing knukle push-ups, which does strengthen the wrist...

i agree that doing pushups on the back of ones wrists is bad

[Matt_Bernius]

This is something that I've just begun researching. A I know that current thought is that gripping the back of the neck on sit ups is undesirable as students often overstress the neck while trying to "pull themselves up". I've also seen some research that suggests that traditional range of motion drills/stretches like neck rolls can be potentially dangerous over the long haul. In fact we've discontinued them as part of our programs because of this.

One interesting thing is that this extends beyond just exercises:

An instructor at a seminar pointed out that if you look at an extremely low horse stance for example, keeping your toes pointed directly forward takes your body out of alignment and causes joint stress on the knees. Research has shown that the toes need to open outwardly slightly to allow a "safer" deep knee bend.

Also, I've had instructors state that after a certain age you shouldn't have certain neck techniques routinely executed on you because of plaque build ups in the major arteries. The concern is that the techniques (like chokes) could dislodge plaque (or other particles that build up over the years) that "rides" the blood into the brain and potentially cause a stroke. In fact, it's my understanding that there is a movement by chiropractors away from direct neck adjustments for this very reason.

Matt

[zun]

I think I was about 14 at the time. At the local church hall (I'm not a christian btw), an instructor was holding his karate classes. I turned up for a class to watch the other students pummel their their fists into roof slates for strengthening practise.

Needless to say, even at that age, the thought that this could lead to osteoporosis and arthritis worried me. Never turned up to further lessons.

Someone I once knew at work, used to take Muay Thai. His conditioning involved kicking truck tires until his shins were sore. They would rub a wet glass bottle over the shins in order to strengthen then. He now complains of shin splints.

I suppose in many instances of training/conditioning it really depends how much you want to sacrifice to be better at MA.

My trophies so far include a broken nose. ;)

[gojuman]

As an adult doing knuckle pushups should be fine, but for children whos bones are still in the developmental stage it could be too strenuous. Therefore in our dojo children under 12 or so depending on their size and maturity are encouraged not to do knuckle pushups like their older dojo brothers and sisters.

[KickChick]

The thread "Martial Artists do the dumbest things"... (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3672) also has some good responses as to what "exercises" should be banned.

As I wrote in my article (Mag section) "As a martial artist you should extend your knowledge beyond your art and into the area of physical fitness training and body mechanics. Many traditional warm-up exercises and stretch routines are archaic, physically damaging and very counter productive to martial arts training."

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Kof_Andy
If the student spot something they think is dangerous to do, then have the right to skip it.

In the environment I taught in, students were always welcome to question, but never to cheat.

If you read back, I was referring to knuckle pushups, and not back of the wrist push ups in that particular example. You'd need an explanation of why this is done in that particular environment before judging.

What I was striving to acheive with this post, a year old as it is, was discussion of the way exercise methodology has developed over time.

So can we drop knuckle pushups, it was just an example of a situation that happened.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by KickChick

"As a martial artist you should extend your knowledge beyond your art ......

Brava!!! Encore!!! :D

Here's an innocent sounding example I see at least 3-4 warming up with in the gym :D

Rolling the neck in a circle arounf thier shoulders!

Mmmmmmm wonder why your neck crack when you do that....

Bring back natural selection I say! Weakest of the herd and all that! :D

[pocketwarrior]

The problem i find is that most MA instructors think that qualifies them to be Fitness instructors as well.... Wait... I know there are many MA instructors out there who know their stuff well and if they don't then they research so that they can teach safely and minimise risk of injury..

But there are also multitudes of those who don't. I expect many people have been in classes where the instructors have you doing leg raises whilst supine or doing crunching neck rotations as a warm up. Ballistic stretches and many other contra-indicated exercises are commonly taught in many MA classes. Personally if i thought a certain exercise would cause harm then i would question it without a doubt although discreetly.

When i first started KB my instructor found out that i was a fitness instructor and he actually asked me to look at his warm-up etc, to let him know if i thought he was doing anything wrong or if it was missing anything. He felt no shame in asking me because at the end of the day MA's is his job not Fitness instructing.

The Fool wonders, The wise man asks....

[SoKKlab]

Remember the other Hurdler sprints with the non-stretching leg back splayed on the floor bent?-very bad.

Straight Leg Raises-very bad

Kneeing (Seizan) posture stretch with lean back to the floor, all the way-very bad

[Andy Murray]

As opposed to just saying it's bad to do x........

Can we say why?

[Kof_Andy]

My apologize Andy Murray, I misunderstood what was said. Forgive me my education only goes up to high school level.:( Knunkle push up is totally fine in the other hand, and it does strengthen the wrist. Yeah I agree with you completely, if the student spot something dangerous he should question it, instead of cheating it out, but they are still responsible for there own safety tho.

[zun]

Originally posted by Tosh

Rolling the neck in a circle arounf thier shoulders!


I told someone last week it was bad to do that. He looked at me as though I was weird... Can't believe I saved his life, and that's the gratitude I get :woo: :)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

In the environment I taught in, students were always welcome to question, but never to cheat.

Whenever I come across an excercise which I disagree with in a class I tend to go with a fairly simple solution. Rather than speaking up or making a fuss about it in class, and rather than cheating, I simply won't do the exercise. If the instructor questions me on it then I'll explain to him quietly why, and if he won't accept my explanation or concerns then I'll simply leave the class. I am not going to risk my health for anyone.

[Southern Mantis]

Can someone explain why neck rolling is bad? In my class we will hang the head forward and roll it from shoulder to shoulder, then tilt it back and roll it from shoulder to shoulder. So we're no doing 360 degrees, just two different rolls of 180 degrees. Is this a better way or is any sort of neck rolling bad? (Hope I described the exercise adequately)

Thanks

[David]

Originally posted by Southern Mantis
Can someone explain why neck rolling is bad? In my class we will hang the head forward and roll it from shoulder to shoulder, then tilt it back and roll it from shoulder to shoulder. So we're no doing 360 degrees, just two different rolls of 180 degrees. Is this a better way or is any sort of neck rolling bad? (Hope I described the exercise adequately)

Thanks

Thought you'd left us, sm! We do ours forwards/backwards and then left/right. Going left and then right while the neck is tilted forward (or backward) is asking a lot of the structure. Small, complex spinal structure vs relatively large and heavy head is an unfair match. The edges of the vertebrae are at risk, as are the disks.

Osteoporosis is not a result of exercise, nor are males likely to suffer from it. It is the result of overdosing on calcium over extended periods. Bones only need a small amount of calcium for their structure. Calcium is a toxin in the bloodstream so the bones react by taking it and storing it until the levels are diminished enough that it's safe to pass them back to the blood for elimination. This anti-toxin process of absorb/release wears the bones out. Why is it a women thing? Perhaps mammary glands have something to do with it: a calcium subsystem that men don't have.

Rgds,
David

[Southern Mantis]

No, I'm still here - biding my time and waiting for the interesting posts.

Thanks for explaining that. I have to admit it is a bit difficult, what with the head being so heavy. We do it in our Chi Gung classes - does it benefit Chi Gung practice at all? I shall ask my instructor about it.

The osteoporosis thing - I haven't a clue. Something to do with oestrogen perhaps (I'm thinking about the menopause and the decline in oestrogen [or is it progesterone] and the onset of osteoporosis).

[Matthew Barnes]

Originally posted by David
Osteoporosis is not a result of exercise, nor are males likely to suffer from it. It is the result of overdosing on calcium over extended periods. Bones only need a small amount of calcium for their structure. Calcium is a toxin in the bloodstream so the bones react by taking it and storing it until the levels are diminished enough that it's safe to pass them back to the blood for elimination. This anti-toxin process of absorb/release wears the bones out. Why is it a women thing? Perhaps mammary glands have something to do with it: a calcium subsystem that men don't have.

Rgds,
David

Huh?
I have to disagree with your opinion of the risk factors involved in osteoporosis.
You are correct in that osteoporosis is not caused by exercise, however, I feel that your description of the development of the disease and the role of calcium to be suspect.
Please see what the national osteoporosis foundation has to say:

http://www.nof.org/prevention/index.htm

Improper exercises can cause a host of physical problems, however,as the above poster stated, osteoporosis is not one of them. In fact, weight bearing exercise increases the bone density lowering drastically the danger of bone mineral loss and fracture, the major problems associated with osteoporosis.

Matt

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

I found this web site:

www.blueridge.edu/StudentServices/StudentLife/Clubs/Budokan/General_Information/10.htm

listing potentially harmful exercises and alternative exercises one can do to exercise the same muscles. Maybe some of the people here who are knowledgeable about fitness can look at this and let me know if it's reasonably accurate. What I like about the list is that it gives alternatives to the harmful exercises instead of just mentioning what's bad.

[KickChick]

Originally posted by David
Why is it a women thing? Perhaps mammary glands have something to do with it: a calcium subsystem that men don't have.



As they age, women produce less estrogen and men produce less testosterone. The loss of both sex hormones can lead to loss of bone mass, but because men reach a greater peak bone mass in their late twenties, they start with thicker and stronger bones than women do. Also, during the first seven years of menopause, women undergo more rapid bone loss and weakening, losing 15% to 30% of their peak bone mass during that time.

Also a diet low in calcium or vitamin D will also increase your risk of the disease and NOT overdosing of calcium.
Too much calcium, especially from a non-soluble/non-absorbable source, can be responsible for kidney stones, bone spurs, urinary calculi, suppressed bone remodeling and mineral imbalances.

It is true however that improper exercise instruction and inattention to body mechanics can be sources of possible physical ailments such as "arthritis" but not osteoporosis.
Exercise is very important for slowing the progression of osteoporosis and reducing the risk for falls that cause fractures.

Children should begin exercising before adolescence, since bone mass increases during puberty and reaches its peak between ages 20 and 30. In fact, one study suggests that exercise may help develop bone mass in teenagers more effectively than high calcium intake.
Weight-bearing exercise applies tension to muscle and bone and, in young people, encourages the body to compensate for the added stress by increasing bone density by as much as 2% to 8% a year.
In premenopausal women these exercises are very protective. Careful weight training may also be very beneficial for elderly people. High-impact weight-bearing exercises, such as step aerobics, however, increase the risk for osteoporotic fractures.

[tang_sou_dao]

we do the hurdlers stretch at class and im wondering if i should confront the teacher or not. i like the class and dont want to leave. we also do the head circular movement.

[KickChick]

Originally posted by Kinjiro Tsukasa
I found this web site.....
Maybe some of the people here who are knowledgeable about fitness can look at this and let me know if it's reasonably accurate. What I like about the list is that it gives alternatives to the harmful exercises instead of just mentioning what's bad.

Good site KT ... thanks for the link. Its all there!

I must say I do two of the exercises listed but with my own modifications ... they are the donkey kicks and the bicycles.

As far as the jumping jacks.... this is what Kurz says about them (and we still do them in our TKD class as a warmup)

" general warm-up should start with a few minutes of aerobic activity—for example, jogging, shadowboxing, or any exercise or game having a similar effect on the cardiovascular system. The one exception: Don't do jumping jacks.

Why not jumping jacks? Because there is no technique in sports that is similar to and can be improved by doing jumping jacks, but what is more important jumping jacks can neurologically disorganize a person (Diamond 1979). Jumping jacks, even for normal persons, can cause regression to an out-of-sync, homolateral pattern of locomotion (left arm swings forward with the left leg, right arm with right leg) and “a vague feeling of confusion” (Diamond 1979).1 An instructor who makes athletes do jumping jacks shows ignorance of exercise physiology, proper methods of training, and pedagogy. Jumping jacks raise the blood level of lactate before the main part of the workout and they are not a lead-up exercise for any technique."

For more on Kurz's views on what constitute a good or bad workout ....

Examples of Good and Bad Workouts (http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch16.html)

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

Thanks for the link, KC. I could use some authoritative information on this topic. Actually, I want to echo tang_sou_dao's question. Assuming one or two of these "bad" exercises is done in your dojo, what is a good, tactful, respectful way to bring up the topic? (And have some authority behind the question other than my own measly opinion). (And assuming I like everything else about the style, the school, and the teacher -- there's just the matter of one or two pesky exercises).

I imagine it might be hard to convince people of the inadvisability of certain exercises when they've been doing them for years with no ill effects (not yet anyway!)

At least I don't have to do the ones that are going to be murder on my knees -- not a problem in my dojo. But I would like to have alternative exercises to do instead of standing there like a statue while other people are doing jumping jacks, for example.

[Knight_Errant]

When I was planning to go for royal marines selection, the recruiting blokie told me not to do Burpees. Is this standard practice? :s

[Tosh]

Originally posted by KickChick


Why not jumping jacks? Because there is no technique in sports that is similar to and can be improved by doing jumping jacks, but what is more important jumping jacks can neurologically disorganize a person (Diamond 1979). Jumping jacks, even for normal persons, can cause regression to an out-of-sync, homolateral pattern of locomotion (left arm swings forward with the left leg, right arm with right leg) and “a vague feeling of confusion” (Diamond 1979).


Very interesting, whole article is great. fter reviewing my own class I have the right idea but some things still dodgy!! :D Hey least I'm trying to learn. :D

I use jumping jacks for 2 reasons.

1) I thought it's a good litmus test to guage early co-ordination when assesing begineers. I don't just use jacks, alternate strides etc as well.

2) I (used to ;)) think that because these required concentration it helped people start to focus a bit more and use thier brain instead of just pumpiong out techniques willy nilly.

Very interesting though. I'm planning a further course of PE education next year with the BAPT (British Association of Physical Training).

Although ideally I'd love to organise a weekend up here rather than go down south or waaaaaay up North. Anybody interested?? Freeform, Mr Murray ....guys ?? Any takers?

:D

[KickChick]

Originally posted by Kinjiro Tsukasa
But I would like to have alternative exercises to do instead of standing there like a statue while other people are doing jumping jacks, for example.

Actually when I first came across this from Kurz I related it to my instructor... and found a "similar" exercise to "jumping jacks" that were called.... "Korean jumping jacks" ... how perfect for warming up in Tae Kwon do!

Actually what they are is jumping up from a left foot forward back/fighting stance to a right foot forward stance and back again to left foot forward. So its a "jump up and switch your stance" ... paying close attention to keeping knees bent and landing in a good stance each time and using your hands making sure to keep lead hand out in front while switching.

[Tosh]

Hehehehehehehehe done em for years!

Considering that double switching is usually a lead up/in to one of my combos have neglected it recently though.

No matter training is tomorrow time to make amends!!! :D

(my students will love hearing that!)

[semphoon]

Originally posted by Tosh
Hehehehehehehehe done em for years!

Considering that double switching is usually a lead up/in to one of my combos have neglected it recently though.

No matter training is tomorrow time to make amends!!! :D

(my students will love hearing that!)

(there goes the element of surprise)

LOOKING FORWARD TO IT

[booksie_girl]

Are jumping jacks starjumps?

[Greg-VT]

I think they are just jumping up and down....

[KickChick]

Originally posted by booksie_girl
Are jumping jacks starjumps?

... participants start standing feet together and arms at their sides. Next have then jump moving feet apart and hands clapping above their head. Then have them jump back into the starting position.

Knight_errant posted this link to star-jumps
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/...000/2084162.stm
here What does your warmup consist of (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5639) .... but they really are not the same as you do not bend down and spring up you just jump in place moving feet apart.

[booksie_girl]

Thanks KC. I think they are the same thing, since I've never done, or seen anyone do, starjumps with the bend down and spring up.

[PaulO]

just a question to those in the know. Whats a good way to warm the neck? up down, left right and ear to shoulder is ok( ihope) as these are the ones I do normally lying on the floor with head raised from the ground.

But I have been known to roll my head in a circle and different instructors have used this in there warmups. Is it really that bad? I dont think I will be doing this from now on. Thanks for the knowledge I may never have found out!

[YODA]

Rolling is ok to the front - the "back corners" are the problem areas and should be avoided.

[PaulO]

Thanks for the advice

[Jeff Burger]

Push ups on knuckles....fine.

One thing I see people do dangerously wrong are finger tip push ups.
They do them on their finger pads with all the little finger joint bending back against all their body weight.

Finger tips are finger tips not pads...if you cant do tips then start on the wall or do other exercises to strengthen tips.

Alot of exercises today and blown out of proprtion as far as being bad.
Example...bridges. I have never meet anyone who got hurt from these and all wrestlers do them as well as lots of other atheletes.

Too many Liberals in the fitness industry.
By that I mean people who deny evidence to justify their own logic. " Uh I think such and such could happen so therefore it will and nobody should do it".
Too many cookie cutter fitness mags for whimps.

Jeff

[Adam]

Second what Jeff says about bridges. They're awesome for building neck and back power and I'm not crippled yet. They have rather made my pusture more upright than maken me a hunchback.
And now, back to the thread :D

[PaulO]

What about the neck warm up where you roll you legs over your head and have your neck and top of your back on the floor, are these ok? I do these a lot during warmups and I dont want to do any bad exercises.