Very informative discussion about what JKD is and isn't

[Cain]

Hmm.......here I am goin' to post what I know of JKD till date, first things first, I am not saying that this is the fact I am just showing you the image of JKD in my mind, if I am wrong then please don't wring my neck but rather educate me :)

Ok so here goes -

It all started with Bruce Lee right? He studied wing chun, and Jun Fan Gung Fu, learnt some footwork from fencing [drop shift] and also tried those boxing style punches and then created Jeet Kune Do, which is the image of cross training to me.......hmm......if I were to join a JKD school I would most likely have to study wing chun, jun fan gung fu, possibly muay thai and -------- I don't know the rest.....of course there must be some aikido or judo or BJJ.......anyways this combination of the styles which cover the weaknesses of the other is JKD, a concept, not a style.

I think it means to say that we have to study these different arts, learn all the tools we can from them and then choose what is needed and what is to be discarded and then create an individual style that suits only you the best from these tools.........this reminds me of the quote -

if you put the water into a cup, it becomes the cup, if you put the water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, it's formless

Ok so here is what I see JKD as - The art of cross training in which you create your own individual style from the tools which suit you the best for you - The martial artist, the individual, the human being.

Ok now fire away your replies and feel free to correct me :D

|Cain|

[pgm316]

I'm no authority on JKD, so I won't say too much

But I have thought of JKD in a similar way, as a cross training sort of art, taking bits from other styles etc.

How does it compare to BJJ? Which to me appears to be more of an evolving art.

JKD won't evolve in the same way. The philosophy stays the same, I suppose its the students that evolve....

[Cain]

JKD won't evolve in the same way. The philosophy stays the same, I suppose its the students that evolve....

Just my thoughts, only I forgot to mention that :D

|Cain|

[Cain]

Also forgot to mention this -

There sure are people who are totally unaware of JKD, but they cross train to cover their weaknesses, so they are doing JKD more or less unconsciously........only they have their own philosophies instead JKD's philosophies.......

Best example of this -

Bruce Lee :D

|Cain|

[TkdWarrior]

To me wat JKD is ->
The art of cross training in which you create your own individual style from the tools which suit you the best for you
it's not cross training, its about becoming "Water"
cross training simple will not be JKD, it's about becoming free,
something like instantaneous expression

i remember reading one of books by bruce saying "it should not even be called as JKD, because even that will give it rigidity"
-TkdWarrior-

[YODA]

Hi Cain

I have a question for you....

If someone cross trains in all ranges, recognises his limitations and strives to overcome them etc etc - but has no knowledge of the physical art Bruce Lee taught to his students - is he doing JKD?

Would it be ok for him to call what he does JKD?

[Cain]

Hmm......first things first, I am assuming that this not a trick question :D

Originally posted by YODA
Hi Cain

I have a question for you....

Exam time :D please don't hurt me if I fail :D

If someone cross trains in all ranges, recognises his limitations and strives to overcome them etc etc - but has no knowledge of the physical art Bruce Lee taught to his students - is he doing JKD?

Would it be ok for him to call what he does JKD?

Ah.....lemme see........it does not really matter to say that he is doing JKD, I think many ppl used to use this concept b'fore and were never aware of the term....but it was Bruce who publicly introduced it.........to describe this process of evolving better....sort of like a short form :D

Bruce evolved the same way, but he simply called it JKD which is this process of evolving.......so JKD is this process of evolving.....therfore yes I think I can safely state that the person is going thru the process of evolving ie JKD :D

.....but has no knowledge of the physical art Bruce Lee taught to his students - is he doing JKD?

Hmm.....Yoda if this is a trick question then I caught u here :D

I think JKD is the concept, the process, not the physical art :D ......so if u r talking about the 'physical art' Bruce taught then the answer is no since he did not train with Bruce :D

Again if I am wrong then correct me but please don't spank me :D I am just showing the image of JKD that is inside my brain :D

|Cain|

[pgm316]

One way or another I'm sure its spanking time Cain :D

[Cain]

Originally posted by pgm316
One way or another I'm sure its spanking time Cain :D

*runs away and climbs on a tree*

|Cain|

[Andy Murray]

Hands yoda the Number Two Spanking slipper :D

[pesilat]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
It all started with Bruce Lee right? He studied wing chun, and Jun Fan Gung Fu, learnt some footwork from fencing [drop shift] and also tried those boxing style punches and then created Jeet Kune Do, which is the image of cross training to me.......hmm......if I were to join a JKD school I would most likely have to study wing chun, jun fan gung fu, possibly muay thai and -------- I don't know the rest.....of course there must be some aikido or judo or BJJ.......anyways this combination of the styles which cover the weaknesses of the other is JKD, a concept, not a style.

The essence of your statement is accurate. Some of the details are off, though.

Bruce Lee didn't study Jun Fan ... he created Jun Fan. "Lee Jun Fan" was his given name. "Jun Fan Gung Fu" was his own system. As far as I know, the only formal training he ever had was in Wing Chun. He studied (on his own and through playing with practitioners, but wasn't formally a student of them) a bunch of different things ... and read whatever he could find on any martial art he could. He studied videos of fights (especially Ali).

So, Jun Fan Gung Fu was his own system that he put developed from his training in Wing Chun and his exposure to various other arts. Some major influences in Jun Fan are, of course, Wing Chun, but also western boxing, fencing, some Savate, and some other Chinese arts (there may be others but these are the ones that I hear most commonly referred to as influences on the development of Jun Fan). Jun Fan was developed by Bruce as a sort of "vehicle" to help the students find their own "Jeet Kune Do."

As for the rest, I think Yoda and Andy have hit all the points I'd have hit.

Mike

[Cain]

Oh thanx for the info Mike, I was'nt aware that Jun Fan Gung Fu was created by Bruce :eek: ......hmm.....he must have created this style maybe for having a base if I am right, or is it another concept? :confused:

|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Oh thanx for the info Mike, I was'nt aware that Jun Fan Gung Fu was created by Bruce :eek: ......hmm.....he must have created this style maybe for having a base if I am right, or is it another concept? :confused:

|Cain|


Aha! Now you're getting there! And if Jun Fan is NOT your base then as far as I'm concerened you are not doing JKD. (Spanking slipper lowered - for now!)

You may have a good system with great training methods, and you may be effectively covering all ranges and know etc - but "JKD" should have a traceable lineage back to Bruce Lee.

Here's an example. If I studie "Punching and kicking" from many styles - found that I liked to train in low stances to strengthen my hips and prefered straight punches to hooks, then I gave myself the ideal of ending the fight with one strike - and bought a few books on Shotokan - could I call what I do Shotokan Karate? I think not - so why do people do the same with JKD?

Sadly the reason is that many are quick to tag the JKD label on things purely as a marketing tool - Bruce Lee sells.

[Cain]

Ah! I see, thanx for enlightening me Yoda :D hmm.....the Jun Fan Gung Fu thingy was new to me.

Sadly the reason is that many are quick to tag the JKD label on things purely as a marketing tool - Bruce Lee sells.

Yeah, I suppose that's the bitter truth, I think many ppl do JKD only because of Bruce Lee, they don't care if they learn effectively or not, I think everyone wants to be the next Bruce Lee, and they think the only way of getting there is by doing JKD :D

|Cain|

[pesilat]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Oh thanx for the info Mike, I was'nt aware that Jun Fan Gung Fu was created by Bruce :eek: ......hmm.....he must have created this style maybe for having a base if I am right, or is it another concept? :confused:

|Cain|

I may have misinterpreted what I've read/heard, but I think Bruce's original intent was to develop a new system. He developed Jun Fan. But, along the way, he realized that he had developed something uniquely his own (which he later labeled "JKD") and realized that it was impossible to codify it or teach it.

Jun Fan became a vehicle that each student could use to find his/her own "JKD."

So ... Jun Fan is a system that can be taught. JKD is a concept that each student must find for his/herself.

Bruce and, as such, JKD, was all about exploration.

JKD isn't about collecting. It's about refining. But, in order to refine, you must first collect the raw material. I think some people get lost in the collection stage and never get around to the refining stage. They become "jacks of many, masters of none" and, unfortunately, some of this misguided group have become very vocal and, as such, have caused many people to think that that's what JKD is ... i.e.: collecting and becoming a jack of many, master of none.

On the flip side of that coin, you've got the ones who think that if you do anything outside of what Bruce did, then you're not really doing JKD. I personally think these people are misguided as well.

If Jun Fan has everything that a given person needs, then great. But they shouldn't tell someone else, "Well ... if you incorporate XYZ into it, it's no longer JKD." JKD is *very* personal. One person's JKD has absolutely no bearing on anyone else's JKD.

And, for the record (though I've said it before), I'm in complete agreement with Yoda. If someone doesn't have legitimate lineage to Bruce then they have no right to call what they do "JKD."

However, I have heard of some people with legitimate lineage to Bruce who don't teach Jun Fan at all. I think it's still valid for them to call what they do JKD ... because of the lineage. If they've found that Jun Fan doesn't work for them, then that is their "JKD."

But for someone to use the name "JKD" with no legitimate lineage back to Bruce is ridiculous, IMO ... and most of them who do it are (like Yoda said) doing it just for the marketability of Bruce and JKD.

Mike

[Cain]

Gee!!! A lesson with Dave Green and Mike Casto, I am a darn lucky guy :D

JKD isn't about collecting. It's about refining. But, in order to refine, you must first collect the raw material.

Hmm.....that means having a strong base on at least one TMA if I am correct, ie Jun Fan Gung Fu in the case of JKD.

|Cain|

[YODA]

Good points Mike :p

[HKD]

this is more for Yoda, but if anyone whats to post go for it
what do you think of the different jkd sets.....original,concept, kickboxing?

[YODA]

Not much.

JKD can be found in any of them but is not exclusive to any one.

I've also seen examples from all three that have no relation to JKD apart from a famous film star's name used as a marketting tool.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by YODA
Not much.

JKD can be found in any of them but is not exclusive to any one.

I've also seen examples from all three that have no relation to JKD apart from a famous film star's name used as a marketting tool.

Good answer, Yoda :)


I personally like the way that Dan Inosanto answered this type of question at a seminar. To the best of my recollection, it went something like this:

Q: "What's the difference between Original and Concepts?"
A: "There is no difference. They are both JKD. Both rooted in Jun Fan. Neither is better or worse. They are equal."

Mike

[HKD]

that is a good answer.

[Emil]

Sgt Major very kindly agreed to re-open this thread, so how about we all contribute to it again? I'll add my contribution in a bit.

Emil

[Emil]

Q: "What's the difference between Original and Concepts?"
A: "There is no difference. They are both JKD. Both rooted in Jun Fan. Neither is better or worse. They are equal."

I would kind of agree with this, but that depends on what degree the concepts follows. If, for example, the concept style doesn't follow the Power side forward, it is not JKD. If it does not contain certain elements from the 'Core arts' i.e. boxing, fencing, wing chun, etc, then is is not JKD. Many people are too quick to jump on the idea of style of no style, but JKD does have a definite structure despite what anyone says. I have posted this before, but for reference, I will post again -

BRUCE LEE'S JEET KUNE DO
Power Side Forward
Bai Jong Position (Small Phasic Bent Knee Stance)
Centerline Preservation
Maximum Economy of Structure
Simplification Over Complication
Light, Quick, Explosive Footwork
Shifty, Alive, Evasive Body Movements
Dynamic Entering Techniques
Longest Weapon to Nearest Target
Emphasis On Interception
Straight and Curved Line Attacks
Aggressive Attack Empasized Over Defense
Lin Sil Die Dar (Simultaneous Defense & Attack)
Bruce Lee's Five Ways of Attack

Therefore, by not including this into the conepts training, you are not doing JKD. What you choose to add after that is at your own disgression.

[taekwonguy]

i have my own views on this, hmmmmmmm where do i start....

... right. Jeet Kune Do IS a STYLE well more of a system, it has it's own characteristics which make it famous like all styles do! Yes Bruce Lee said it wasn't but he didnt want it to be other styles like karate were at the time. All set in stone. He wanted it to be a style that can customized to the practitioners' needs.

Jun Fan Gung Fu is simply the core of the style, the thing that makes up Jeet Kune Do.

Personally I would choose to learn Jun Fan Gung Fu, from someone such as Dan Inosanto without the kali etc, then intergrate the kali etc after I have a good grounding in the core.

I believe that Jeet Kune Do, is the system/ style that Bruce Lee left the world, but he wanted the practitioners to customize it.

Without the core (Jun Fan Gung Fu) it is NOT Jeet Kune Do, the style.

When people say they are doing JKD by choosing certain techniques etc from different arts and incorporating it into their own style they are doing the PROCESS of Jeet Kune Do, how is it JKD if it has nothing to do with an intercepting fist???????

what do you think?

[SiAiS]

I think that's right, I think that you expressed it very well and eloquently, and is in-line with my own conclusion about it's origin, and it's development.

[Emil]

Nicely put Matt. Thanks for contributing.

[Martell]

jkd is just a word describing fighting. its like anything you do. if you do something enough u learn more about it and how to become better at it.

[flyingplant]

The way I've always studied JKD is similar to what you said, but my friends and I have always called it integrated martial arts as a more accurate name. Try not to think of it as a combination of styles, but of techniques. A kick from TKD, a lock from BJJ, a punch from boxing. All things formed into one formless, seamless effort that you've created within yourself.

[flyingplant]

Without the core (Jun Fan Gung Fu) it is NOT Jeet Kune Do, the style.

When people say they are doing JKD by choosing certain techniques etc from different arts and incorporating it into their own style they are doing the PROCESS of Jeet Kune Do, how is it JKD if it has nothing to do with an intercepting fist???????

In my experience 'style' is nothing more than self-imposed limitations. Bruce Lee's version of JKD did include Jun Fan Gung Fu but that doesn't mean that anything lacking this is any less. JKD is a philosophy at heart, not a style. Each person develops their own means to the same end, winning the fight.

[PhoenixMateria]

What people don't understand is that you can't apply a STYLE of fighting until you learn the basics of FIGHTING itself. Practically no one out there knows those anymore, or seek them without a blindfold over their eyes.

Learn what a fight consists of, learn how your body works, find the best way you can apply what you have to achieve your goal. It's a simple, logical formula that works for everything (understand the goal, the means, the application).

I personally find the rise of BJJ to be convergent with the decay of striking martial arts. Even boxers today know nothing of the power line and don't use their lead arm well, don't coordinate footwork with their strikes, have no precision whatsoever, and no notion of defense (the "clinch clinch" effect).

Many of today's martial arts "masters" have powerful punches with the secret being hip rotation and hard work. Any young street fighter has a lot more insight into the art of fighting.

It all comes down to understanding what you're doing (styles are no answer to a fight), what you have (people don't understand they can all produce KO punches with little effort), and how to apply what you have in relation to what you're doing to achieve results.

[Emil]

What people don't understand is that you can't apply a STYLE of fighting until you learn the basics of FIGHTING itself. Practically no one out there knows those anymore, or seek them without a blindfold over their eyes.

That's a very good point.

I personally find the rise of BJJ to be convergent with the decay of striking martial arts. Even boxers today know nothing of the power line and don't use their lead arm well, don't coordinate footwork with their strikes, have no precision whatsoever, and no notion of defense (the "clinch clinch" effect).

I disagree. I'd say that bad boxers do this. But by comparing all martial artists to the standards of the bad martial artists is unfair.

Any young street fighter has a lot more insight into the art of fighting.

That's probably true. I think that sometimes MA's can over-intelectualize things - sometimes, MA training can be detrimental to how you end up in a fight.

I tend to not think of styles. When I am grappling, i don't think "yeah, I'm using JuuJutsu now", or think "Yeah, I'm using Aikido now" when i wrist lock somedody. This is what JKD tries to get away from. By planning a situation, you leave yourself open. If you think "I'll train x technique in case I get hit by y strike" you are leaving a big gap. The idea is flowing between techniques naturally. Now I hate to use the Bruce Lee cliched quotes like the one I am about to use, because so many people just throw them around thinking they sound cool but without having any idea what they mean, but I think this one is appropriate - "Be like water". One should flow between movements, and naturally use the most applicable techniques without haveing to think. To quote the Tao Te Ching - "Practice not doing, and everything will fall into place".

Em

[windtalker]

I tend to not think of styles. When I am grappling, i don't think "yeah, I'm using JuuJutsu now", or think "Yeah, I'm using Aikido now" when i wrist lock somedody. This is what JKD tries to get away from. By planning a situation, you leave yourself open. If you think "I'll train x technique in case I get hit by y strike" you are leaving a big gap. The idea is flowing between techniques naturally. Now I hate to use the Bruce Lee cliched quotes like the one I am about to use, because so many people just throw them around thinking they sound cool but without having any idea what they mean, but I think this one is appropriate - "Be like water". One should flow between movements, and naturally use the most applicable techniques without haveing to think. To quote the Tao Te Ching - "Practice not doing, and everything will fall into place".

the problem i think you are refering to is that students often think in terms of technique not concepts. from students new to jkd that have practiced some other kind of martial art before we spend a great deal of time attempting to seperate technique and concept.

where did that idea come from that a person needs a technique against a front kick, another for dealing with a wrist lock, then yet another method for protecting against the right cross? before long the students have countless techniques.

worse is students have difficulty using the same technique in different ways. because they have no idea of the concept. the reason i spend a great deal of time with muay thai is because only the concept matters. granted there are some techniques in muay thai yet they are not for specific attacks.

the difference in reality is too much has been invested with learning a new and/or different technique for every conciveable situation. because muay thai only teaches a few techniques and then applys the material in sparring a student has to understand how to use the material for different things.

thers no specific technique for dealing with say a lead hand punch. just a reponse based on range and opprotunity. we might say nearest weapon to nearest target yet thats a concept not a technique. and my definition of what jkd is would be not a fixed response.

now if someone asked what i think jkd isnt my first thought would be a style. because there you have that confinment. the whole attack #1 defense #2 nonsense. theres a old boxing adage which goes 'everyone has a plan until they get hit'. just respond not expect.

[DaeHanL]

the problem i think you are refering to is that students often think in terms of technique not concepts. from students new to jkd that have practiced some other kind of martial art before we spend a great deal of time attempting to seperate technique and concept.

where did that idea come from that a person needs a technique against a front kick, another for dealing with a wrist lock, then yet another method for protecting against the right cross? before long the students have countless techniques.

worse is students have difficulty using the same technique in different ways. because they have no idea of the concept. the reason i spend a great deal of time with muay thai is because only the concept matters. granted there are some techniques in muay thai yet they are not for specific attacks.

the difference in reality is too much has been invested with learning a new and/or different technique for every conciveable situation. because muay thai only teaches a few techniques and then applys the material in sparring a student has to understand how to use the material for different things.

thers no specific technique for dealing with say a lead hand punch. just a reponse based on range and opprotunity. we might say nearest weapon to nearest target yet thats a concept not a technique. and my definition of what jkd is would be not a fixed response.

now if someone asked what i think jkd isnt my first thought would be a style. because there you have that confinment. the whole attack #1 defense #2 nonsense. theres a old boxing adage which goes 'everyone has a plan until they get hit'. just respond not expect.

I think the mentality of having to use technique "A" when Attack "A" is used, and not understanding the endless uses for the concept, is very common for a simple reason. Much like how many artists can draw very well as long as they are looking at something, but have a difficult time drawing from memory or just by using their creativity. We must understand the composition so well, and have the skill necessary to create, before we can ever break away from painting still life.

ok i'm done with the art analogy. sorry it went on for so long :) but hey, i'm an artist- it's what i know.

[Emil]

the problem i think you are refering to is that students often think in terms of technique not concepts. from students new to jkd that have practiced some other kind of martial art before we spend a great deal of time attempting to seperate technique and concept.

where did that idea come from that a person needs a technique against a front kick, another for dealing with a wrist lock, then yet another method for protecting against the right cross? before long the students have countless techniques.

worse is students have difficulty using the same technique in different ways. because they have no idea of the concept. the reason i spend a great deal of time with muay thai is because only the concept matters. granted there are some techniques in muay thai yet they are not for specific attacks.

the difference in reality is too much has been invested with learning a new and/or different technique for every conciveable situation. because muay thai only teaches a few techniques and then applys the material in sparring a student has to understand how to use the material for different things.

thers no specific technique for dealing with say a lead hand punch. just a reponse based on range and opprotunity. we might say nearest weapon to nearest target yet thats a concept not a technique. and my definition of what jkd is would be not a fixed response.

now if someone asked what i think jkd isnt my first thought would be a style. because there you have that confinment. the whole attack #1 defense #2 nonsense. theres a old boxing adage which goes 'everyone has a plan until they get hit'. just respond not expect.

Your post is exactly right, and you have highlighted probably the main problem of the "classical mess" that Bruce wanted to move away from. JKD has very few techniques. This is one of the things that defines JKD. Many other scientific methods of self defense employ this scholl of though. Look at combatives, for example. A combatives instructor will advise the student to apply the same technique in a variety of situations. A good example of this is defending with alternate hands. If somebody grabs you from behind, a combatives instructor will show you a technique that you use with both hands. Not, as is taught in many TMA's, one technique for the right hand, and a different one for the left. In combatives, it is the same technique, done in the same way, so as to not cause confusion. This works!

Em

[g-bells]

absorb, put in the lab, and use what works for you......

[windtalker]

let me pitch this analogy a student in class used and tell me what you think. say your learning to play baseball. and working on batting skills. maybe at first you learn the basics of how to hit the ball and emulate what others are doing. to get it right you apply the basics although change the way you swing the bat. maybe you hit better from the left side or grip the bat a little higher. are you not still hitting the ball and playing baseball?

after giving his analogy some thought i felt it was a good description of what jkd is and isnt. the objective being learning how to fight stays the same. the concepts of technique might be the same. theres just a point where you have to stop copying your instructor/class and figure out what changes need to be made on this personal level.

maybe i got the wrong interpetation about what he meant? thats just my take on what sounded like a practical example. any thoughts?

[Emil]

let me pitch this analogy a student in class used and tell me what you think. say your learning to play baseball. and working on batting skills. maybe at first you learn the basics of how to hit the ball and emulate what others are doing. to get it right you apply the basics although change the way you swing the bat. maybe you hit better from the left side or grip the bat a little higher. are you not still hitting the ball and playing baseball?

after giving his analogy some thought i felt it was a good description of what jkd is and isnt. the objective being learning how to fight stays the same. the concepts of technique might be the same. theres just a point where you have to stop copying your instructor/class and figure out what changes need to be made on this personal level.

maybe i got the wrong interpetation about what he meant? thats just my take on what sounded like a practical example. any thoughts?

I think that's a very good analogy, actually. It epitomises Bruce's message, and can extend to more than just fighting, I feel.

Em

[KickinIt]

The analogy - okay what you are saying is profound indeed, you are saying don't use JKD kicks , punches, etc , but instead use a Baseball bat to get the job done faster & more efficiently , now thats JKD! Lol.

The funny thing with JKD is getting people to explain it, especially JKD Concepts, ask them - 'well, what are the Concepts, define them?', they usually struggle or give you some nonsense like study several arts till you are good at them , blend them so you flow in combat between styles. Thats not Concepts!

Concepts in martial arts should be say applying principles & concepts in combat, and minimising respoinses as much as possible e.g. Have the same responses say for certain angles, a hook kick to head / reverse knifehand/ hook punch, etc all follow same angle so use the same technique or concept to respond to it, not have 50 responses more to think of & less likely you will choose the appropriate one in that split second you have to respond. That is more Concepts running through your system or art than JKD Concepts - with above example, having Kali response say destruction of arm and strike/ JKD responses parry & hit or stop hit / Muay Thai cover & strike with elbow / BJJ duck under and takedown, etc.

People in JKD like to talk of Concepts, but most struggle to define what the heck they are talking about , or they give you some philosophy bull to cover up the fact they can't really define them.

[KickinIt]

Regarding Concepts I know someone that does Japanese Jiu-jitsu they learn 20 defences against a wrist grab or lapel grab, all different ones, so there full arsenal is hundreds if not thousands of techniques, from which they just need to select the appropriate one from all those at a given momment & good luck!

Same with simple thing like angles mentioned above some teach for angle like hook punch / rear hook kick to head, etc they teach different responses for each to an attack to same area and at same angle, so they have to select at given moment the right technique from a huge arsenal : recognise height of attack/ type of attack and respond appropriately.

When you could in many cases simplify things to same response to any attack same height & angle or even more simplified same response to attacks from same angle at any height. Not only do many JKD Concepts people have many resposes to same attacks, you can multiply that even further to include responses from all the different arts they do - BJJ, Kali, Muay Thai, Jun Fan, etc. Where is the Concept in that?

[windtalker]

The analogy - okay what you are saying is profound indeed, you are saying don't use JKD kicks , punches, etc , but instead use a Baseball bat to get the job done faster & more efficiently , now thats JKD! Lol.

The funny thing with JKD is getting people to explain it, especially JKD Concepts, ask them - 'well, what are the Concepts, define them?', they usually struggle or give you some nonsense like study several arts till you are good at them , blend them so you flow in combat between styles. Thats not Concepts!

Concepts in martial arts should be say applying principles & concepts in combat, and minimising respoinses as much as possible e.g. Have the same responses say for certain angles, a hook kick to head / reverse knifehand/ hook punch, etc all follow same angle so use the same technique or concept to respond to it, not have 50 responses more to think of & less likely you will choose the appropriate one in that split second you have to respond. That is more Concepts running through your system or art than JKD Concepts - with above example, having Kali response say destruction of arm and strike/ JKD responses parry & hit or stop hit / Muay Thai cover & strike with elbow / BJJ duck under and takedown, etc.

People in JKD like to talk of Concepts, but most struggle to define what the heck they are talking about , or they give you some philosophy bull to cover up the fact they can't really define them.

There's a book called Tao of Jeet Kune Do which clearly outlines the concepts of the art form. Pick up a copy and you will learn exactly what has been refered to.

The idea of having 50 different responses to choose from is NOT something found in JKD. Maybe that's a bad habit you picked up on a martial art that uses such an approach. JKD is about spontaneous response and being in the moment.

The analogy given earlier had nothing to do with hitting someone with a baseball bat. Was that a little to deep for you to follow? Here's maybe a simpler version that even you might understand.

Fighting is not defined by doing everything the same way as your instructor does. Making benificial changes in your method of doing things does'nt mean that you're no longer fighting. Just that you have chosen the best way of fighting for you're own personal needs.

[windtalker]

Regarding Concepts I know someone that does Japanese Jiu-jitsu they learn 20 defences against a wrist grab or lapel grab, all different ones, so there full arsenal is hundreds if not thousands of techniques, from which they just need to select the appropriate one from all those at a given momment & good luck!

Same with simple thing like angles mentioned above some teach for angle like hook punch / rear hook kick to head, etc they teach different responses for each to an attack to same area and at same angle, so they have to select at given moment the right technique from a huge arsenal : recognise height of attack/ type of attack and respond appropriately.

When you could in many cases simplify things to same response to any attack same height & angle or even more simplified same response to attacks from same angle at any height. Not only do many JKD Concepts people have many resposes to same attacks, you can multiply that even further to include responses from all the different arts they do - BJJ, Kali, Muay Thai, Jun Fan, etc. Where is the Concept in that?

What martial art do you study? Becuase all I've heard from you is complaints about what someone else does. Do you have ANY background in JKD to support these ideas about what goes on in JKD classes?

Looking back over this thread Empress Akasha already defined the concepts of JKD quite clearly.

[callsignfuzzy]

Guys, don't let this cat bog down an otherwise good thread.

Why hasn't he been banned yet anyways? All he does is start threads so he can immediately disagree with everyone else's oppinions.

[Emil]

Methinks that Kenny actually has no idea what he is talking about in regards to life. He should go and hide, study, and come back to us when he takes his tongue off the window.

Em

[Tartovski]

Can I ask a question about the Kali/JKD link? Why it exists, and what purpose it serves to help with JKD?

[ap Oweyn]

Can I ask a question about the Kali/JKD link? Why it exists, and what purpose it serves to help with JKD?
Why it exists: As the story goes, Guro Dan Inosanto knew that Bruce Lee didn't want JKD schools. At the same time, after Lee's death, Inosanto didn't want JKD to fizzle out. His solution (along with Richard Bustillo) was to open a school teaching Filipino martial arts, with a JKD class within the school. So there wasn't a JKD school, but JKD classes persisted.

As for what kali adds to JKD, that question is impossible to answer really. Since Guro Dan was there at JKD's inception, and played a continual and important part in its development, kali has been an influence from early days. And since, after Lee's death, Guro Dan became one of the most knowledgeable remaining proponents of JKD, his experiences and priorities began to play a bigger role in JKD's development.

It's kinda like asking what purpose one brother serves in the development of the other brother. They live in the same space and have done for ages. Influence is inevitable.


Stuart

[Tartovski]

Ok, that makes sense from a history point of view. I guess what I meant is that Jun Fan/JKD is an open hand style, whereas Kali/escrima are weapons arts, so I wondered how they compliment each other.

Ie if I want to study JKD, am I also going to have to learn stick fighting (something I currently have zero interest in).

[ap Oweyn]

Ok, that makes sense from a history point of view. I guess what I meant is that Jun Fan/JKD is an open hand style, whereas Kali/escrima are weapons arts, so I wondered how they compliment each other.

Ie if I want to study JKD, am I also going to have to learn stick fighting (something I currently have zero interest in).
Not necessarily. Kali is an inclusive style. It just generally starts with stickfighting. But that aside, I've seen a lot of concept schools (i.e., schools most closely aligned with Dan Inosanto's interpretation of JKD) that teach kali and JKD side by side. Other schools (sometimes referred to as "original JKD") don't embrace kali at all. In which case, you wouldn't need to worry about it.

But even if they did, in my experience, concept schools often break their classes out into different sections. So you might have a Jun Fan/JKD class, a Thai boxing class, a kali class, etc. So you've got the opportunity to see the commonalities, but wouldn't necessarily be required to study kali in order to study JKD. Regardless of what "camp" you go with.

But that's a question for any potential teacher. The last time I "interviewed" a JKD teacher (on behalf of a friend of mine who was interested in training there), I asked him how classes were broken out. He had a kickboxing class that included elements of muay thai, Western boxing, and Filipino empty hand (what they call panantukan in that camp). But what it didn't include was stickwork. That was reserved for a kali class.


Stuart

[corwin137]

On "Is it or is it not JKD?", "What is JKD?" and etc ad nauseum, I still argue that it's a misunderstanding of context and language. It's (JKD) discussed as if it matters what "JKD" is/isn't- and I believe the real question is something like "What works in fighting/combat against an uncooperative 'opponent' in a non-controlled environment."

In theory, anything that is effective in context might be described as JKD. Lots of ideas have been found over the years that few "JKD instructors" don't quibble about much. Terms (jab/cross, straight/hook), tactics (broken rhythm, 5 ways...), economy of motion, etc. Tons of styles have exactly the same ideas and terms, so why is it important to call such "JKD"? As my instructor says, "__________- it's all the same as far as his face is concerned."

As for the JKD/Kali link, have asked my instructor this question specifically. He was with Guro Dan for 13 non-stop years, 5 as his primary substitute. He is also a Guro under Edgar Sulite, one of Dan's teachers. His answer was (paraphrasing):

"It just so happens that where the principles of JKD leave off, specific techniques and ideas in Kali etc show up." A good example of this is the use of tools (weapons). What I think he was getting at is that in terms of practicality (our main concern), Kali has a lot of those ideas built in already.

For instance, in Kali there's a kickboxing base, they teach similar means of "scoring", all ranges of combat, foul tactics, interception, much more. I just see it as a system that inherently has more ideas that are arguably "JKD" (in the way I described above) than a lot of others, so the marriage worked well. He didn't cite any other reason for the two being mentioned so often, so close together.

[corwin137]

[QUOTE=Tartovski]Ok, that makes sense from a history point of view. I guess what I meant is that Jun Fan/JKD is an open hand style, whereas Kali/escrima are weapons arts, so I wondered how they compliment each other...
/QUOTE]
Aside from the other stuff I noted above, can give more specifics. Not meant to be taken internally, subject to change without notice, unlikely to be cured by a physician.

Oh yeah- one quick thing first. Kali has plenty of empty hand tools, at all ranges, including the ground. A lot of folks either don't know it, or maybe they ignore it.

Lots of use of interception. This is true in terms of weapons, or empty hand.

A kickboxing-y base. Depending on which JKD teacher you go to, a lot of Kali ideas look like MT. Triangle cover (but modified), similar hand and foot tools, things of that ilk.

The "drills" are done "live", and there's lots of sparring to be had. With and without weapons.

Lots of focus on context, used as a means to filter ideas.

A lot of Kali schools don't teach forms, techniques or etc, and thus avoid the classical mess the Empress talked about (hello again there miss). There's a lot of talk of principle.

Lots of the specific tools look much like JKD. What I mean is, take "destructions" for example. The use of an elbow or knee or knuckle or weapon or whatever as a means to "destroy" a target, offensively or defensively. In this case, the idea looks much like the principle of "interception" so labored in "JKD" circles.

There's tons more. What I'm trying to point at is: "JKD" is based on "concepts" or "principles" (this does NOT negate or propagate any ideas from the 'original' JKD vs 'concepts' considerations...), and that principles few people argue over are taught in the principles and base ideas in Kali.

[Tartovski]

Cool. Thanks for that. I didn't realise Kali was anything more than a weapons fighting system. I guess I'll have to pop along to my nearest JKD school to check it all out.

[corwin137]

Would add that much depends on who you go to as well. Some folks don't spar (empty hand or with tools). Some simply omit the empty hand stuff. Some omit dealing with different ranges of combat. Some simply do stuff that no human I know is ever going to get off in the chaos of an uncontrolled "opponent" in an uncontrolled environ. Some teach a lot of techniques and or dead patterns...

That said though, there's also plenty of folk that teach more of the principles I described. Inosanto obviously, Dog Brothers, many of the Lameco people that are left. Of course these "critiques" are not limited to any system or subsystem, just making sure that I'm putting caveat emptor out there.

[ap Oweyn]

Would add that much depends on who you go to as well. Some folks don't spar (empty hand or with tools). Some simply omit the empty hand stuff. Some omit dealing with different ranges of combat. Some simply do stuff that no human I know is ever going to get off in the chaos of an uncontrolled "opponent" in an uncontrolled environ. Some teach a lot of techniques and or dead patterns...

That said though, there's also plenty of folk that teach more of the principles I described. Inosanto obviously, Dog Brothers, many of the Lameco people that are left. Of course these "critiques" are not limited to any system or subsystem, just making sure that I'm putting caveat emptor out there.
Seconded. Though, since I started studying kali/eskrima in 1990, I've never seen a school that omitted empty hand entirely. I've seen schools that did a better job of addressing it than others though.

In either event, it's not just weapons.


Stuart

[corwin137]

Seconded. Though, since I started studying kali/eskrima in 1990, I've never seen a school that omitted empty hand entirely. I've seen schools that did a better job of addressing it than others though.

In either event, it's not just weapons.


Stuart
Tried to PM you Stuart (apologies to everyone else)- who've you trained with?

[ap Oweyn]

Tried to PM you Stuart (apologies to everyone else)- who've you trained with?
The PM didn't work? Odd.

I trained in Doce Pares Eskrima with the Patalinghug family in Maryland, Inosanto Kali (and other assorted JKD stuff) with Guro Pat Finley in Maryland, and now in Modern Arnis with Guro Roman Picardo in Virginia. That's my FMA background, anyway.

[corwin137]

The PM didn't work? Odd.

I trained in Doce Pares Eskrima with the Patalinghug family in Maryland, Inosanto Kali (and other assorted JKD stuff) with Guro Pat Finley in Maryland, and now in Modern Arnis with Guro Roman Picardo in Virginia. That's my FMA background, anyway.
Grazie. Was just curious because you always have good stuff to add here and elsewhere- wanted to know where you hailed from. The PM indicated that you'd chosen to turn accepting them off, as well as emails. It may be that way because I'm using Firefox- have gotten that message from other folks too.

[ap Oweyn]

Grazie. Was just curious because you always have good stuff to add here and elsewhere- wanted to know where you hailed from. The PM indicated that you'd chosen to turn accepting them off, as well as emails. It may be that way because I'm using Firefox- have gotten that message from other folks too.
Weird. Yeah it must be because of Firefox. My PM box is open for business. The email thing I may have switched off though.

In any event, thanks very much. I appreciate that!


Stuart

[Hybrid-MMAist]

Ahh... The endless question/discussion. I love this stuff. Jeet Kune Do is not a style, system, or new martial art. It is a concept, an idea, and a way of life. You are Jeet Kune Do, I am Jeet Kune Do... Everyone on this forum is Jeet Kune Do. That is what makes it so beautiful... Hybrid freestyle fighting. No forms, no shapes, no tradition.

Although I am against JKD schools I will not bash anyone who goes to one. But I do find it difficult not to argue when someone says "I'm a Jeet Kune Do fighter." But to each their own I guess. I would prefer they would call themselves a freestyle fighter or mixed martial artist but hey, who am I? :D

"Jeet Kune Do is just a name... Please don't fuss over it."

- Bruce Lee

[february]

Although I am against JKD schools I will not bash anyone who goes to one.

Hmmm interesting. Please elaborate, why would you be "against" JKD schools?

I would prefer they would call themselves a freestyle fighter or mixed martial artist

Don't get me wrong I can kinda see your logic in this, but when you have a system that adheres to specific principles within a specific framework, with definable and tangeable physical characteristics, why term it under a generic banner?

[g-bells]

Ahh... The endless question/discussion. I love this stuff. Jeet Kune Do is not a style, system, or new martial art. It is a concept, an idea, and a way of life. You are Jeet Kune Do, I am Jeet Kune Do... Everyone on this forum is Jeet Kune Do. That is what makes it so beautiful... Hybrid freestyle fighting. No forms, no shapes, no tradition.

Although I am against JKD schools I will not bash anyone who goes to one. But I do find it difficult not to argue when someone says "I'm a Jeet Kune Do fighter." But to each their own I guess. I would prefer they would call themselves a freestyle fighter or mixed martial artist but hey, who am I? :D

"Jeet Kune Do is just a name... Please don't fuss over it."

- Bruce Lee

your against jkd schools but your who post sounds a little like it's from one of his books...hhhmmmmmmmmmmmm?

and no everyone is'nt doing jkd or being jkd, there are things that are exclusively jkd and there is a base in which to expand on

[DaeHanL]

no not everyone is doing jkd, but i think people confuse JKD and JunFan GungFu far to often.

[Hybrid-MMAist]

Hmmm interesting. Please elaborate, why would you be "against" JKD schools?

Well, the few schools I have seen do exactly what Jeet Kune Do is against, teaching one method over another. That's not what Jeet Kune Do is, it is everything. Even hair pulling and biting. I remember someone on the most recent "The Ultimate Fighter" show represented JKD... But was talking smack and putting down other people?

Seriously, if you want to represent JKD, that's cool... But you have to represent it as a whole, not just a fighting style.

Don't get me wrong I can kinda see your logic in this, but when you have a system that adheres to specific principles within a specific framework, with definable and tangeable physical characteristics, why term it under a generic banner?

Sorry, kind of explained this above. From what I believe and what I have understood through the readings... JKD is not just a fighting style, but a way of life. So if you study only the physical part of it, and not the entire philosophical or spiritual part of it -- Then you have no right to call your self a JKD master, or JKD fighter, etc. This is why I feel a more generic label is more appropriate.

Like Pat Miletich! ;)

[Hybrid-MMAist]

your against jkd schools but your who post sounds a little like it's from one of his books...hhhmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Because I've read his books... And I am against JKD schools, not studying JKD. JKD is something you have to experience for yourself, not be taught. Even in the "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" he says to be familiar with your weapons before studying this book.

and no everyone is'nt doing jkd or being jkd, there are things that are exclusively jkd and there is a base in which to expand on

I understand that and sorry if I implied that I thought everyone was doing it. I just feel that when these wide array of schools opened up it was to make money.

[tel]

Because I've read his books... And I am against JKD schools, not studying JKD. JKD is something you have to experience for yourself, not be taught. Even in the "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" he says to be familiar with your weapons before studying this book.



I understand that and sorry if I implied that I thought everyone was doing it. I just feel that when these wide array of schools opened up it was to make money.
jkd has a base system, once you have that down, then you can look at other arts to improve what you have. you can just train in karate, ju jitsu and thai and call it it jkd, but also jkd cannot be self taught

[february]

Precisely, JKD has a defining physical structure and delivery method. You would be able to differentiate a JKD practicioner to say, a MMAist cross training Muay Thai and Silat, even if the JKDer had incorporated those arts into his game.

JKD is sometimes considered to be a MMA or method of cross training, with the "JKD" part of it being a mere philosophical adjunct, this isn't the case. I prefer to think of JKD as cross-absorbtion than regular cross training, i.e. incorporating a technique or fighting methodology, into to an already clearly defined (and complete) base structure e.g. the Bai Jong. If a method doesn't fit the structure, then it's incompatible.

Simply reading the Tao, then cross training a couple of MA's, isn't JKD.

[windtalker]

Well, the few schools I have seen do exactly what Jeet Kune Do is against, teaching one method over another. That's not what Jeet Kune Do is, it is everything. Even hair pulling and biting. I remember someone on the most recent "The Ultimate Fighter" show represented JKD... But was talking smack and putting down other people?

Seriously, if you want to represent JKD, that's cool... But you have to represent it as a whole, not just a fighting style.



Sorry, kind of explained this above. From what I believe and what I have understood through the readings... JKD is not just a fighting style, but a way of life. So if you study only the physical part of it, and not the entire philosophical or spiritual part of it -- Then you have no right to call your self a JKD master, or JKD fighter, etc. This is why I feel a more generic label is more appropriate.

Like Pat Miletich! ;)

Since when did JKD not advocate using one method over another there? From what I remember we always supported the idea of using the concepts from JKD as opposed to not. For that matter I always considered the idea of JKD being substitution. If there's a better way then advocate that as opposed to something less effective.

Maybe I got what you said later all wrong? After ten years of learning and practicing the concepts of JKD along with technique still I would not be qualified to be considered a student? And the reason would be that I don't follow the eastern thinking which Bruce admired so much? Next I expect you to suggest that JKD students adhere to what Bruce thought and his famous book as if that were scripture.

Hopefully there are more JKD students than not who sometimes question the views of Bruce Lee. And have enough free-thinking dare I suggest to actually disagree with some of his writings/thoughts. Never should JKD students become robots and strictly adhere to JKD technique and philosophy entirely as Bruce taught. Because then we are learning just a style.

Far as the generic label goes if a person is not using JKD concepts they are not using/learning JKD simple as that. Nor would Pat Miletich be considered a JKD student without having a background in the art form much less not using the concepts. That's a difference between just mixing a bunch of styles and learning JKD.

[Hybrid-MMAist]

Since when did JKD not advocate using one method over another there? From what I remember we always supported the idea of using the concepts from JKD as opposed to not. For that matter I always considered the idea of JKD being substitution. If there's a better way then advocate that as opposed to something less effective.

Maybe I got what you said later all wrong? After ten years of learning and practicing the concepts of JKD along with technique still I would not be qualified to be considered a student? And the reason would be that I don't follow the eastern thinking which Bruce admired so much? Next I expect you to suggest that JKD students adhere to what Bruce thought and his famous book as if that were scripture.

Hopefully there are more JKD students than not who sometimes question the views of Bruce Lee. And have enough free-thinking dare I suggest to actually disagree with some of his writings/thoughts. Never should JKD students become robots and strictly adhere to JKD technique and philosophy entirely as Bruce taught. Because then we are learning just a style.

Far as the generic label goes if a person is not using JKD concepts they are not using/learning JKD simple as that. Nor would Pat Miletich be considered a JKD student without having a background in the art form much less not using the concepts. That's a difference between just mixing a bunch of styles and learning JKD.


I'm not a Jeet Kune Do student... And I never said Pat Miletich was a Jeet Kune Do student either. I don't really know why the words are being swished around. I said what I said, just read the post. Don't analyze it and try and make me look like a hypocrite. I said I have studied/read/reread/loved his books. I never said I learned, or taught, or focused on Jeet Kune Do. I'm an MMA fighter with a little traditional martial arts to back it up.

I was just elaborating my opinion, didn't know I was going to be thrown into the fire.

[windtalker]

BTW. Good to see a renewed intrest with the JKD forum. Things were quiet around here for a while.

[Hybrid-MMAist]

Precisely, JKD has a defining physical structure and delivery method. You would be able to differentiate a JKD practicioner to say, a MMAist cross training Muay Thai and Silat, even if the JKDer had incorporated those arts into his game.

JKD is sometimes considered to be a MMA or method of cross training, with the "JKD" part of it being a mere philosophical adjunct, this isn't the case. I prefer to think of JKD as cross-absorbtion than regular cross training, i.e. incorporating a technique or fighting methodology, into to an already clearly defined (and complete) base structure e.g. the Bai Jong. If a method doesn't fit the structure, then it's incompatible.

Simply reading the Tao, then cross training a couple of MA's, isn't JKD.


Again I never said I was a Jeet Kune Do master. And I have read more than the Tao.

[february]

Again I never said I was a Jeet Kune Do master. And I have read more than the Tao.

Dude, that last statement wasn't really directed at you - more me thinking out loud. :D

But to readdress your original point and apply it to that - I guess I'm saying that JKD is far more than a series of philosophies and soundbites that can be applied to a single, or combination of martial arts.

[windtalker]

I'm not a Jeet Kune Do student... And I never said Pat Miletich was a Jeet Kune Do student either. I don't really know why the words are being swished around. I said what I said, just read the post. Don't analyze it and try and make me look like a hypocrite. I said I have studied/read/reread/loved his books. I never said I learned, or taught, or focused on Jeet Kune Do. I'm an MMA fighter with a little traditional martial arts to back it up.

I was just elaborating my opinion, didn't know I was going to be thrown into the fire.

Did I suggest that you were a JKD student? Or that you said Pat Miletich was a JKD student? Nor was I making an effort to "swish around" your post. And I read your post at least twice before commenting and once again before posting this. How did you get the impression that I was suggesting any hypocricy there?

The portion of your reply that I have an issue with is suggesting that anyone doing JKD has to follow the philosophy and spiritual aspects or is not a student of the art form. Learning the concepts and applying them is critical to being a JKD student. Finding the best technique and training methods to develop better fighting skill is essential as well. Taking in eastern thinking is not.

Back to the subject of generic labels for a minute. What Pat Miletich does from what I've seen is MMA. It's because of not having the JKD background and concepts that he would not be considered a JKD student. Whatever beliefs that Pat Militich has makes no difference.

Reading books about JKD has often proved interesting and sometimes even helpfull to my efforts at developing fighting skills. Yet the writings of Bruce are more of a guide than a rule. The concepts apply of course and I think Jun Fan is a great way to learn how the principles are used not to mention pick up some good technique. After that a student needs to find thier own way and has to if they intend upon becoming a true JKD student.

[february]

Bruce Lee's thoughts on combat (now generally referred to as JKD "philosophy" or "spirituality"), are simply principles and methodologies that can actively applied to combat and/or fighting. Thinking of them as anything more than that (e.g. some sort of God-like, enlightened esoteric Taoist wisdom) is silly.

JKD was designed to enable the practicioner to knock someone out in 10 seconds, not to make them a Bhudda.

[windtalker]

Bruce Lee's thoughts on combat (now generally referred to as JKD "philosophy" or "spirituality"), are simply principles and methodologies that can actively applied to combat and/or fighting. Thinking of them as anything more than that (e.g. some sort of God-like, enlightened esoteric Taoist wisdom) is silly.

JKD was designed to enable the practicioner to knock someone out in 10 seconds, not to make them a Bhudda.

Never heard of Bruce Lee's thought on combat being refered to philosophy or spirituality before. Maybe the old favorites like concepts or principles. Have to disagree that spiritualism and concepts are the same thing. From my own interpetation of his work Bruce did take eastern thinking as the "enlightened esotoric Taoism wisdom" you mentioned. Those appeared to be his beliefs. Might be wrong there yet have given the subject considerable thought.

There seems to be a huge problem with people mixing thier spiritual beliefs with thier martial arts training. Developing tools is a far better way for any student to use class time. What I personally get from JKD is using the concepts to develop a better way of doing things. Has anyone else noticed that a parallel discussion is going on in another thread?

[february]

Interesting.

The point I'm trying to make here is about people's ability (or inability) to seperate philosophical musings and actual martial art (or Bruce Lee's philosophical comtemplation from his martial contemplation).

I'm personally inclined to give the whole "spirituality" subject a wide berth. For the record I don't think there's a whole lot of "spirituality" in BL's thoughts on JKD, philosophy - yes, but not much spirituality.

Bruce Lee's thoughts on Taoism or Zen, have no bearing on my practice of JKD. However, if I empty my cup and try to "be like water", expand when my opponent contracts, or observe what "is" with undivided awareness - can I not apply them as principles in the pursuit of the actuality of combat in JKD?

[g-bells]

Because I've read his books... And I am against JKD schools, not studying JKD. JKD is something you have to experience for yourself, not be taught. Even in the "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" he says to be familiar with your weapons before studying this book.

If you have never trained with an experienced jkd instructor then you could'nt know about it. i 'm not trying to bang on you here it's just you seem to have the impression that there so many jkd schoold out there teaching it and that is futher from the truth than me walking on water. It is hard, dang hard , to find a qualified jkd instructor because the good ones are'nt in it for money and don't go looking for people, the people go looking for them

I understand that and sorry if I implied that I thought everyone was doing it. I just feel that when these wide array of schools opened up it was to make money.

the good one are in it to futher spread the ideals not to make money

[Japaholic]

Ok so I am a newbie, both here on these boards and to the practice of JKD, I have read through this thread and feel compelled to add my two pennies worth.

In the higher echelons of JKD, the 1st generation of instructors like Sifu Inasanto, Poteet et al, all seem to be wanting to declare ownership of JKD and this has made it a political arena rather than a spiritual/philosophical/physical one which was the original intent of Bruce Lee.

Quite simply, only God knows Bruces intent for JKD in the future after his untimely death but it seems to me they all offer lip service to Bruce whilest forgetting the very core of his teachings.

(This is only my newbie opinion, don't flame me, educate me)

I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". . . Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that. There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. There is nothing artificial about it. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is. Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound by another modified pattern and can move within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive. Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.

I consider this to be as near as being "from the horses mouth" as one such as myself can get.

It is simple language and i think I understand the points behind it.

As a student of Jeet Kune Do I will study under anyone who has more knowledge than myself whether he be a Poteet guy, a Wong guy, a Hartsel guy or even the guy who teaches BJJ at the local church hall.

If my passion for JKD continues then at some point in the future I suspect I will begin to develop my own JKD.

I hope that I will learn less from these people and will instead be learning with these and other people.

In my humble opinion JKD is far more than the art itself, its something deeper than that.

Its a course of learning, not necessarily a way of life as that sounds too all encompassing, it is something I do because I enjoy it, I enjoy the physical, the training. I enjoy the chats before and after and the great depths of discussion it drives me into.

It gives me a chance to meet new people and to learn about people and is a great avenue to explore my obsession with amateur psychology.

Again I offer a quote from the man himself.

If people say Jeet Kune Do is different from "this" or from "that," then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it.

[yingyangmoon]

Bruce Lee was not a one dimensional or one art master. He believed that all martial arts had strong and weak points and what he did was use the strong points and added or modified them to fit what he thought was a proper way to unify them to his art JKD. If you look deeply into JKD you will see Jiu Jistu ,Kick Boxing,Karate,KungFu, and basically all other arts in JKD. That is what I feel makes JKD so interesting and such a well rounded art. Bruce was way ahead of his time with his art of JKD that is was mostly dismissed by all other Masters and Senseis as a joke at the time. Until recently JKD was a forgotten discipline by many but I am here to tell you that it is making a come back and a very strong one at that, this pleases me a ton.

As far as Bruce's beleifs go he had a highly spiritual mind and soul. He studied the cultures and beliefs of many nations and people. He believed that all people deserved to have their own belief regardless of what it was. He had a working knowledge and understanding of many beliefs and even used some in his daily life. His book Tao Of Jeet Kune Do touched on his spirtuality but only scratched the surface as far as what the real deal was. Before I ever started to train in the JKD art I made it a priority to touch base with Bruce's spiritual self and understand what he meant when he meant it. I am a better JKD artist because of it. Bruce was Bruce, thats all.

[Emil]

You're bordering very closely on a big misconcepton in JKD.

Many people will say that JKD is made up of 28 different martial arts, and kist some of the most obscure ones that they can find. this is absolute bull. JKD is made up of 4 formats:

Punching
Kicking
Grappling
Trapping

Thus we can see that excluding the obvious fencing influence, there are only 4 arts that primarily make up JKD - Boxing, Savate/kickboxing, Judo, and Wing Chun. Tis is the base.

Bruce did academicaly study other arts (in that, I mean he read about them), and he saw some techniques that he liked, so he used tem. But, it is erroneous to say that those arts that he took techniques from make up JKD - they have been primarily dismissed short for a few techniques.

Em

[Yohan]

Bruce Lee was not a one dimensional or one art master. He believed that all martial arts had strong and weak points and what he did was use the strong points and added or modified them to fit what he thought was a proper way to unify them to his art JKD. If you look deeply into JKD you will see Jiu Jistu ,Kick Boxing,Karate,KungFu, and basically all other arts in JKD. That is what I feel makes JKD so interesting and such a well rounded art. Bruce was way ahead of his time with his art of JKD that is was mostly dismissed by all other Masters and Senseis as a joke at the time. Until recently JKD was a forgotten discipline by many but I am here to tell you that it is making a come back and a very strong one at that, this pleases me a ton.

As far as Bruce's beleifs go he had a highly spiritual mind and soul. He studied the cultures and beliefs of many nations and people. He believed that all people deserved to have their own belief regardless of what it was. He had a working knowledge and understanding of many beliefs and even used some in his daily life. His book Tao Of Jeet Kune Do touched on his spirtuality but only scratched the surface as far as what the real deal was. Before I ever started to train in the JKD art I made it a priority to touch base with Bruce's spiritual self and understand what he meant when he meant it. I am a better JKD artist because of it. Bruce was Bruce, thats all.

Yeah I'm not really feeling you on this either. JKD is about learning how to fight effectively. It's a training format that allows you to build your game. JKD is all about solid training principles. JKD was never forgotten, and it's not seeing a comeback either. There are just more people who are full of **** then there ever were - people acting like they are in a bruce lee movie, people trying to codify JKD, people who think there is only one way to do things. The real JKD guy have been out there for the last 10-20 years doing their thing and keeping their mouth shut, and they all have skill in their hands to show for it.

[february]

Bruce did academicaly study other arts (in that, I mean he read about them), and he saw some techniques that he liked, so he used tem. But, it is erroneous to say that those arts that he took techniques from make up JKD - they have been primarily dismissed short for a few techniques.

Well said. Use a bite or gouge in JKD and all of a sudden Kino Mutai becomes one of the "core arts". :rolleyes:

[windtalker]

You're bordering very closely on a big misconcepton in JKD.

Many people will say that JKD is made up of 28 different martial arts, and kist some of the most obscure ones that they can find. this is absolute bull. JKD is made up of 4 formats:

Punching
Kicking
Grappling
Trapping

Thus we can see that excluding the obvious fencing influence, there are only 4 arts that primarily make up JKD - Boxing, Savate/kickboxing, Judo, and Wing Chun. Tis is the base.

Bruce did academicaly study other arts (in that, I mean he read about them), and he saw some techniques that he liked, so he used tem. But, it is erroneous to say that those arts that he took techniques from make up JKD - they have been primarily dismissed short for a few techniques.

Em

First I agree with the context of your post. Because I keep hearing an ever increasing list of martial arts were ''borrowed" from to develop JKD. Many of the arts were as you stated something Bruce might have only read about or watched demonstations. Maybe the reason in part relates to all the material taught from different styles found in JKD schools now?

Yet I think Bruce at the very least was impressed enough with a number of art forms to spend time learning a little about them from students therof. For years I have been told that both Lee and Parker (Ed) spent a fair ammount of time with Jimmy Woo and the San Soo art influenced both of them. There are well documented sources of Bruce having spent time practicing with the better know Shotokan and Taekwondo instructors of his time. From the latter some of the kicking technique in JKD seems to have developed. The shuffle kick being a good example of this.

There was an interview with the director of Enter the Dragon where it was mentioned that Bruce used a little recently learned Hapkido in the film. And some of the "foul tactics" that Bruce wrote about and illustrated looks much like Wrestling. At the very least it seems there is sufficent evidence to suggest that Bruce had more than a passing intrest with both Kenpo and Taekwondo.

It seems difficult at times to seperate what Bruce knew from significant time with students of different arts as opposed to what he only read. Somewhere I have an interview with Bruce where he clearly demonstrates the knowledge of a form that I have been told is from Praying Mantis. During interviews with his family there was mention of Bruce having learned a little Tai Chi from an uncle at some point.

The idea of 27 arts having a great bearing on JKD does not seem feasable yet I think 4 is not realistic.

[february]

First I agree with the context of your post. Because I keep hearing an ever increasing list of martial arts were ''borrowed" from to develop JKD. Many of the arts were as you stated something Bruce might have only read about or watched demonstations. Maybe the reason in part relates to all the material taught from different styles found in JKD schools now?

Yet I think Bruce at the very least was impressed enough with a number of art forms to spend time learning a little about them from students therof. For years I have been told that both Lee and Parker (Ed) spent a fair ammount of time with Jimmy Woo and the San Soo art influenced both of them. There are well documented sources of Bruce having spent time practicing with the better know Shotokan and Taekwondo instructors of his time. From the latter some of the kicking technique in JKD seems to have developed. The shuffle kick being a good example of this.

There was an interview with the director of Enter the Dragon where it was mentioned that Bruce used a little recently learned Hapkido in the film. And some of the "foul tactics" that Bruce wrote about and illustrated looks much like Wrestling. At the very least it seems there is sufficent evidence to suggest that Bruce had more than a passing intrest with both Kenpo and Taekwondo.

It seems difficult at times to seperate what Bruce knew from significant time with students of different arts as opposed to what he only read. Somewhere I have an interview with Bruce where he clearly demonstrates the knowledge of a form that I have been told is from Praying Mantis. During interviews with his family there was mention of Bruce having learned a little Tai Chi from an uncle at some point.

The idea of 27 arts having a great bearing on JKD does not seem feasable yet I think 4 is not realistic.

I know where you're coming from, but I'd add that a differential is required in influence and someting becoming a basis for your art. The form you often see Bruce doing at demo's is the mantis form. He used that alot I think because it looked suitably flashy, and showed off his high kicking ability - remember this is the kind of stuff that wasn't mainstream at the time. I've also heard that Mantis also influenced the on guard position a little, in terms of the bend of the torso, although any argument could be made for that (most logically the boxers crouch). I think Bruce learned a little Tai Chi from his dad, but I don't think anyone would argue that Tai Chi really influenced JKD to any degree.

With regards to Shotokan, from Bruce's notes, he wrote that he liked the "spirit", masterful basics and directness of it. Having done Shotokan myslef for many years, I can vouch for these attributes, but beyond those principles, I don't think any physical techniques really bear any resemblance (both the kicking and puching are based on a completely different mechanic) - another example of an influence not being core to an art.

On that basis, I would agree that it is the 3 or 4 basic arts that form the foundation of what Bruce Lee created at that time, but many more arts may have influenced it. You can see this clearly from any of his notes or writings, and from what his peers and students are saying now. Attributing any more than that is like a recent thread I saw here at MAP, where Vitor Belfort throwing a barrage of straight punches to KO someone, was used as a basis for an argument for the effectiveness of the WC straight blast. Just because something is similar, doesn't make it the same, I guess.

Alot of these discussions always boil down to what Bruce Lee "did", whether or not a practicioner follows that "doctrine" is up to them.

[Emil]

I guess its all down to a time scale. From when do we decide the core arts? From the beginning, the aforementioned four are pretty much it, but later on, there are other influences. How strong these influences are comes into question, and it is safe to say that that number is nowhere near 27.

Em

[Diamond Dave]

The idea of all these styles that make up jkd comes from Bruce's early days of study.The forms that he learned and demonstrated back then were Praying mantis, southern mantis wing chun's sil lim tao, jeet kune ,fu jow and crain.He held an interest in Tai chi, northen praying mantis,eagle claw, pa-kua, monkey, jeet kune, and choy lay fut.He had books on southern mantis, eagle claw, dragon fist, tai chi, choy lay fut, hsing -I, sil lum tao, pa-kua, hung gar, chin-nar and dim mak.
At this early stage in his development Bruce had the idea of creating a superior Gung Fu system.

[Emil]

The idea of all these styles that make up jkd comes from Bruce's early days of study.The forms that he learned and demonstrated back then were Praying mantis, southern mantis wing chun's sil lim tao, jeet kune ,fu jow and crain.He held an interest in Tai chi, northen praying mantis,eagle claw, pa-kua, monkey, jeet kune, and choy lay fut.He had books on southern mantis, eagle claw, dragon fist, tai chi, choy lay fut, hsing -I, sil lum tao, pa-kua, hung gar, chin-nar and dim mak.
At this early stage in his development Bruce had the idea of creating a superior Gung Fu system.

True enough, but these styles are not present in JKD or his non-classical Kung Fu.

Em

[Diamond Dave]

I'm not saying that these styles are in jkd, just that these are the arts he looked at while in Seatle.Some elements of some of the styles can be found in his non-classical gung fu.
In a letter to William Chueng around 1969 Bruce said, "Ive lost faith in the Chinese classical arts."

[windtalker]

I guess its all down to a time scale. From when do we decide the core arts? From the beginning, the aforementioned four are pretty much it, but later on, there are other influences. How strong these influences are comes into question, and it is safe to say that that number is nowhere near 27.

Em

Still I agree with the context of your posts on the subject. There were just a few arts that probably had a significant bearing on the structure of JKD and certainly not a number like 27 styles.

Yet my view on the "core arts" would be that Wing Chun and Boxing along with Taekwondo (not Kickboxing) and maybe Ju-Jitsu would have fit your basic formula. Forgot to mention Fencing there. Maybe the Savate related to fencing?

There are numerous references/drawings to Muay Thai and Judo. Also to Wrestling. It has always seemed to me there were a number of minor influences yet more than just 4 that shaped JKD structure.

On an entirely different subject of long-term curiosity even back when Bruce was using/teaching the Non-Classical Gung-Fu there was an obvious change from palm on knife-hand type strikes found in Wing Chun to straight punches and notably the backfist. Any theories about how and why Bruce made such changes? The process Bruce used to eliminate the forementioned technique has always interested me.

[february]

Yet my view on the "core arts" would be that Wing Chun and Boxing along with Taekwondo (not Kickboxing) and maybe Ju-Jitsu would have fit your basic formula. Forgot to mention Fencing there. Maybe the Savate related to fencing?

Personally I'd omit Taekwondo from that list, I did a little many years ago, and the kicking method in JKD is pretty different. I think the kicking owes more to Savate. With regards to Kickboxing, AFAIK it wasn't really mainstream during that time, as people weren't generally cross-training (it was more full contact Karate). I could be wrong, but I always thought that Bruce and his group were relatively pioneering in bringing about a cross-training Kickboxing type format about, before anyone else did.

Again as far as I know, the fencing aspect comes from an attribute level. The powerside forward, straight lead, on-guard position, principle of interception etc. Although it's not technically fencing, the attributes are strongly enough derived to make it pretty central to the JKD methodology.

I always liken JKD to Boxing. Boxing is a self-encompassed art, but rarely do 2 boxers look exactly the same in the way that say, 2 Shotokan people would. Look at the differences, Ali, Foreman, Liston, Marciano, Tyson, Hamed, Khan, Mayweather, Hatton - All pretty different stylistically, yet all have the same foundation. The basic footwork, stance, jabs, crosses, hooks, bobbing, weaving etc. The same foundation, all boxers, but appropriating methods that work better for them. It's the same with JKD, the foundation is the same, you need to understand it before trying to appropriate your own methods, otherwise what you're doing will deviate from the core principles of directness, economy, power generation etc.

These are just my opinions and insight, people are bound to differ. TBH I think that there's way too much theorising in JKD and not enough doing, getting on the mat and working what you do is what's going to make you a better fighter, not reading a ton of books and theorising on why or how Bruce would have done it, or not done it.

[windtalker]

Hey February,
Were you suggesting that I try using the open hand strikes from Wing Chun then using the modifications that Bruce made to his Non-Classical Gung-Fu for possible insight as to why the change was made?

[JeetKuneDero]

Despite the constant focus on whether Bruce Lee may have studied 4 arts or 27 - I have to wonder how much that would weigh for someone trained in physics alone observing Lee in motion? For it seems to me that despite his early process of experimentation, borrowing, blend, “or whatsoever,” he also hacked away at so much that, in the end, all that remained were a few simple techniques not based on any particular style - and thus no longer his source - but on nothing else other than physics in motion.

He is not alone in that – those he greatly admired had arrived at that plane as well – Takuan, Suzuki, Krishnamurti, et al. One would do well to read them.

"A few simple techniques well presented, an aim clearly seen, are better than a tangled maze of data whirling in disorganized educational chaos." - Bruce Lee

[senseisifu]

www.pumayouthcorp.com

This website will help with some of the basics of JKD.

[ap Oweyn]

Despite the constant focus on whether Bruce Lee may have studied 4 arts or 27 - I have to wonder how much that would weigh for someone trained in physics alone observing Lee in motion? For it seems to me that despite his early process of experimentation, borrowing, blend, “or whatsoever,” he also hacked away at so much that, in the end, all that remained were a few simple techniques not based on any particular style - and thus no longer his source - but on nothing else other than physics in motion.

Nicely said.

One of the big problems with some approaches to JKD, in my opinion, is the "checklist." That running tally of how many different influences you've wracked up in your JKD. Or, worse yet, the "shopping list" of things you still need to wrack up.

Seems to me that cross-training of any sort requires judgment enough to determine when you're just collecting for collection's sake versus actually addressing a concrete need.


Stuart

[Jjf88]

It depends.

JKD Concepts is Mixed Martial Arts.

OJKD or Jun Fan JKD is Bruce's art, based on the science of movement

[DaeHanL]

jkd is the process of forming your own art. Not just plain ol' MMA.

jun fan JKD is bruce's expression of himself/his truths and no one else.

[pmosiun]

Wow, i always thought jeet kune do is a concept, mixing martial art such as mma. after rereading jeet kune do vol 3 by john little and the bruce lee fighting method, i felt really bad, i discovered in the jeet kune do vol 3 book, the importants of footwork which is the foundation from fencing and boxing, the upper body tools which are basically boxing tools, vertical lead punch, hook punch, cross, backfist, uppercut, and the lower body tools which are your basically similar to kickboxing kicks, only 3 most commonly use kick, side, shin/knee and hook kick. i notice the bruce lee fighting method, jeet kune do is basically western boxing with influence from western fencing.

[Mr. JKD]

Trying to say what JKD is or isn't is like trying to catch the wind in many ways,and by all means keep trying. Ill say this once, if you are training in JKD or any martial art for that matter and you have to think on what you are doing is or isn't what someone else says or thinks, then you should probably change the way you train and even think about martial arts. Seems like everyone is trying ( maybe not wanting to but still) to choke the idea of having a free and formless attitude on martial arts out. Here's something to chew on :The enlightenment idea in older martial arts (EX: Karate and all Japanese arts for that matter) is what I think this free attitude I speak about is. Once you can look at martial arts and the earth you walk on in the same way then you are on your way to greatness so to speak, maybe you wont win many controlled fights and competitions, but as a human you will succeed. In my opinion this is what Bruce and lots of the masters of olden times were trying to get across. The modern way of thinking is really killing all ideas of martial arts, new or old. I'm not argueing/agreeing/disagreeing with anyone, I'm just putting this out for you to wrap your brain around it and really think on what martial art is. Read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and really read the beginning chapter on Zen, and the part about seeking the truth, forgetting it and reposing in the nothing( the nothing being what you yourself has experienced,learned,etc). Its best to try to look at JKD as a set of stepping stones to get on the road of your own journey in martial arts and in life.

[JKDwolf#1]

Trying to say what JKD is or isn't is like trying to catch the wind in many ways,and by all means keep trying. Ill say this once, if you are training in JKD or any martial art for that matter and you have to think on what you are doing is or isn't what someone else says or thinks, then you should probably change the way you train and even think about martial arts. Seems like everyone is trying ( maybe not wanting to but still) to choke the idea of having a free and formless attitude on martial arts out. Here's something to chew on :The enlightenment idea in older martial arts (EX: Karate and all Japanese arts for that matter) is what I think this free attitude I speak about is. Once you can look at martial arts and the earth you walk on in the same way then you are on your way to greatness so to speak, maybe you wont win many controlled fights and competitions, but as a human you will succeed. In my opinion this is what Bruce and lots of the masters of olden times were trying to get across. The modern way of thinking is really killing all ideas of martial arts, new or old. I'm not argueing/agreeing/disagreeing with anyone, I'm just putting this out for you to wrap your brain around it and really think on what martial art is. Read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and really read the beginning chapter on Zen, and the part about seeking the truth, forgetting it and reposing in the nothing( the nothing being what you yourself has experienced,learned,etc). Its best to try to look at JKD as a set of stepping stones to get on the road of your own journey in martial arts and in life.

totaly agree

[Like Water]

Trying to say what JKD is or isn't is like trying to catch the wind in many ways,and by all means keep trying. Ill say this once, if you are training in JKD or any martial art for that matter and you have to think on what you are doing is or isn't what someone else says or thinks, then you should probably change the way you train and even think about martial arts. Seems like everyone is trying ( maybe not wanting to but still) to choke the idea of having a free and formless attitude on martial arts out. Here's something to chew on :The enlightenment idea in older martial arts (EX: Karate and all Japanese arts for that matter) is what I think this free attitude I speak about is. Once you can look at martial arts and the earth you walk on in the same way then you are on your way to greatness so to speak, maybe you wont win many controlled fights and competitions, but as a human you will succeed. In my opinion this is what Bruce and lots of the masters of olden times were trying to get across. The modern way of thinking is really killing all ideas of martial arts, new or old. I'm not argueing/agreeing/disagreeing with anyone, I'm just putting this out for you to wrap your brain around it and really think on what martial art is. Read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and really read the beginning chapter on Zen, and the part about seeking the truth, forgetting it and reposing in the nothing( the nothing being what you yourself has experienced,learned,etc). Its best to try to look at JKD as a set of stepping stones to get on the road of your own journey in martial arts and in life.

Well said :cool:

[Morra]

Ill say this once, if you are training in JKD or any martial art for that matter and you have to think on what you are doing is or isn't what someone else says or thinks, then you should probably change the way you train and even think about martial arts. Seems like everyone is trying ( maybe not wanting to but still) to choke the idea of having a free and formless attitude on martial arts out.

I can't follow what you're trying to say here. If I'm training in an MA, and I come across someone with a different opinion, and I think about it, I'm somehow on the wrong path? What do you mean?

The most popular martial arts right now are MMA and BJJ (OK, there's TKD, but that's baby-sitting). They seem pretty free and formless to me. New techniques and positions are invented every few months, so there's another thing I don't get what you mean. Maybe if you cited some examples?

Here's something to chew on :The enlightenment idea in older martial arts (EX: Karate and all Japanese arts for that matter) is what I think this free attitude I speak about is.

Really? Those traditional teachers are the most close-minded "my art is the best, all sprang from my art" people in MA! They are the dogmatists Bruce Lee was against.


Once you can look at martial arts and the earth you walk on in the same way then you are on your way to greatness so to speak, maybe you wont win many controlled fights and competitions, but as a human you will succeed. In my opinion this is what Bruce and lots of the masters of olden times were trying to get across. The modern way of thinking is really killing all ideas of martial arts, new or old. I'm not argueing/agreeing/disagreeing with anyone, I'm just putting this out for you to wrap your brain around it and really think on what martial art is. Read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and really read the beginning chapter on Zen, and the part about seeking the truth, forgetting it and reposing in the nothing( the nothing being what you yourself has experienced,learned,etc). Its best to try to look at JKD as a set of stepping stones to get on the road of your own journey in martial arts and in life.

I simply don't agree. Bruce Lee's philosophy is fine, nothing new there, certainly, but he never wanted philosophy to overhwhelm the fighting--which some can argue happened with Aikido.

[DaeHanL]

I can't follow what you're trying to say here. If I'm training in an MA, and I come across someone with a different opinion, and I think about it, I'm somehow on the wrong path? What do you mean?


i think what was being said is, if you have to think "what would Bruce Lee, Dan Inosanto, Ted Wong, or whoever do in this situation? Would he approve?" then you are on the wrong path.

[JKDwolf#1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. JKD View Post
Ill say this once, if you are training in JKD or any martial art for that matter and you have to think on what you are doing is or isn't what someone else says or thinks, then you should probably change the way you train and even think about martial arts. Seems like everyone is trying ( maybe not wanting to but still) to choke the idea of having a free and formless attitude on martial arts out.

[QUOTE][Morra]
I can't follow what you're trying to say here. If I'm training in an MA, and I come across someone with a different opinion, and I think about it, I'm somehow on the wrong path? What do you mean?

The most popular martial arts right now are MMA and BJJ (OK, there's TKD, but that's baby-sitting). They seem pretty free and formless to me. New techniques and positions are invented every few months, so there's another thing I don't get what you mean. Maybe if you cited some examples?[QUOTE]

What i say he means here from my point of view is that say you meet some one who does MMA and you do JKD and you start talking and they make you think and by that i mean think long and hard about what you are doing and is it really the best for you or are they right. what he means is that you should be able to tlak with them or any one else on any other style you should not be convinced of any thing that goes aginst your philosophy of JKD or your practice of the style itself. in other words you should have no doubt's on what you are doing if you do then get out of it and find something new that you have no doubt's about.

Originally Posted by Mr. JKD View Post
Here's something to chew on :The enlightenment idea in older martial arts (EX: Karate and all Japanese arts for that matter) is what I think this free attitude I speak about is.

[QUOTE][Morra]
Really? Those traditional teachers are the most close-minded "my art is the best, all sprang from my art" people in MA! They are the dogmatists Bruce Lee was against.[QUOTE]

I think you are looking at this from the wrong angle now i haven't done a lot of research on the thinkers of martial arts of that time so I'm not the best person to answer this but here is what i think he means: i think you are looking at it form this angle (correct me if I'm wrong) but you think he means those masters would except any art no matter what. well you are right most masters of that age would look at other arts and deny them saying they were wrong because they differed. look at it like this though they were close minded on that part they were very free thinkers so to speak in the fact that they would look at things very differently than most people would. like the riddle thing you know how they would put things into a riddle for there students to answer well that was there way of looking at things not just as physical problems but as spiritual problems as well. they wold also look at themselves and the earth around them and through I'm going to say there Zen state (me and most people now kinda of call it your alone time your time to sit and think about things.) but theirs was so much different by the fact that they would not think but just listen to the things around them and i guess just see themselves in situations and what they would do or so to speak. at least that is what I think he is trying to get across

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. JKD View Post
Once you can look at martial arts and the earth you walk on in the same way then you are on your way to greatness so to speak, maybe you wont win many controlled fights and competitions, but as a human you will succeed. In my opinion this is what Bruce and lots of the masters of olden times were trying to get across. The modern way of thinking is really killing all ideas of martial arts, new or old. I'm not argueing/agreeing/disagreeing with anyone, I'm just putting this out for you to wrap your brain around it and really think on what martial art is. Read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and really read the beginning chapter on Zen, and the part about seeking the truth, forgetting it and reposing in the nothing( the nothing being what you yourself has experienced,learned,etc). Its best to try to look at JKD as a set of stepping stones to get on the road of your own journey in martial arts and in life.

[QUOTE][Morra]
I simply don't agree. Bruce Lee's philosophy is fine, nothing new there, certainly, but he never wanted philosophy to overhwhelm the fighting--which some can argue happened with Aikido.[QUOTE]

I disagree with you yes maybe he didn't want the philosophy to take over the fighting but in order to understand his fighting I think you need to have a very good grasp on the philosophy. by that i mean sit and take your zen time on everything he says in his book The Tao of Jeet Kune Do it will in my opinion open your mind if you really think about what is being said in the book.

[Morra]

i think what was being said is, if you have to think "what would Bruce Lee, Dan Inosanto, Ted Wong, or whoever do in this situation? Would he approve?" then you are on the wrong path.

Well, yeah, you shouldn't do that. A good question would be: "Would Bruce Lee incorporate this technique? Or is it easily countered/ too fancy?"

[DaeHanL]

express yourself. trust and find your own truths. If you cut the bruce lee incorporate thing out of your statement, i agree.

[Stevie Bhoy]

express yourself. trust and find your own truths. If you cut the bruce lee incorporate thing out of your statement, i agree.

JKD to me was founded by Bruce Lee with the intention of intercepting an attacker in the most efficient way as humanly possible. It is gradually built refining and testing specific attributes that are scientific which applies to the human race. Unless people have 4 arms or three legs, lol. That is not to say the JKD practitioner cannot express him/her self depending on a situation that may arise.

[jagged monk]

PESILAT! Wow man pretty insightful! i agree 110%. My perception is the same.My lineage is through JERRY POTEET not directly but my instructor was or as far as i know still is a student of his. I was however lucky enough to be at a special seminar for students only where most of us practiced chi sou with him.Sorry got a little off the subject. It is very personal to me. Its a mindset. To be alive in the moment. TO RESPOND CORRECTLY TO A SITUATION AT THE PROPER SECOND. Of course this goes far beyond combat.Now i would like to say this is my way of life but i'd be lying(i'm just not that diciplined).However when i take the time to focus i feel limitless in what i can do.As in life combat is situational and pouncing at your right second can make all the difference in the world.

[Stasis]

What up guys now don't take this wrong im new to the forum and im not in martial arts im just a street fighter who is good at what i do... um dont attack me please im always up to learn more but in order to defeat your opponent you must understand their technique so i just recently was challenged by a "JKD" titled sifu and to my understanding JKD is a state of mind not a fighting style, all bruce was promoting was a way to perfect your inner self and what you can do with your own skills. i do not think he meant for people to follow his exact style of fighting. he meant for you to find what makes you a perfect balance. im young and from orlando so im just throwing in my 2 cents. if bruce was alive today he would have some competition because there are many who have followed the JKD state to the "T" and yet have not used his style. I am One

[Spinmaster]

Whenever someone starts out with "I'm a street fighter" I smell a troll at work... :rolleyes:

[Yohan]

What up guys now don't take this wrong im new to the forum and im not in martial arts im just a street fighter who is good at what i do... um dont attack me please im always up to learn more but in order to defeat your opponent you must understand their technique so i just recently was challenged by a "JKD" titled sifu and to my understanding JKD is a state of mind not a fighting style, all bruce was promoting was a way to perfect your inner self and what you can do with your own skills. i do not think he meant for people to follow his exact style of fighting. he meant for you to find what makes you a perfect balance. im young and from orlando so im just throwing in my 2 cents. if bruce was alive today he would have some competition because there are many who have followed the JKD state to the "T" and yet have not used his style. I am One

post video. What "JKD sensei" have you challenged?

[Stasis]

i have not challenged any i have been challenged by one and posting a video of a street fight is not only illegal but is stupid, i am not afraid to take on anyone i am not saying i am invincible i do learn from mistakes just like anyone. im just saying i dont think JKD is a type of style therefore shouldnt be tagged with " I know JKD" it should be more like " I use JKD" and as far as the troll comment.... like i said i am in orlando and im not hard to find... i love a challenge just bring money.

[Edgeorge]

After studying tons of BL and martial arts generaly, I view JKD as the concentration and the appliance of older principles. Concepts like the appliance of Zen in MA, fighting the self and our ego/anxieties in every battle were actualy older than the Samurai. That doesn't make BL any less of a pioneer IMO, the guy was phenomenal.

[drees5761]

Jeet Kune Do is a concept, nothing more, its not a "style" someone can teach. Dan Inosanto told me this himself. Its about opening your mind to different ranges of combat to suit you, one persons JKD is not the same as another persons. Thats why Bruce Lee said he wished he had never adopted the term, because people will take it as gospel, which sadly since his death that is what has happened.

[focused_rage]

Ok,
well to start this forum "what is or isn't JKD" first look in the mirror and you will have your answer study you're flaws and work towards their end.

Thats just the start.

it has been said from the start and has been said repetitively in this forum, its a concept with root examples ie "the boat" to serve as a guide to ones self for preservation and to achieve perfection.

as for the question of what JKD would be if Lee was still alive.
well it wouldn't be anything it was disbanded under Bruce Lee and only brought back by Dan Inosanto to preserve Lee's ideas. Now would Lee have brought it back if he didn't die he surely expressed no intent to do so but who knows things change with time.

"I have disbanded all the organized schools of Jeet Kune Do because it is very easy for the students to mistake the agenda as the truth and to take the program as the way."
- Si Jo (Bruce) Lee Jun Fan, 1972


He as well did not want people over thinking what he said they were not meant as metaphors but examples nothing more and he said that him self "there is no way, every ones truth is their own". So if you want to grow in the use of the JKD method you have to open your mind to the whole universe not any one specific thing/subject/spirituality, other than what is your own because if you do you will become confined, thus defeating the whole existence of JKD with in you're self and would have learned nothing.

and yes the study of his principles is necessary to JKD.

"I stress again, I have not created or invented any kind of martial art. Jeet Kune Do is derived from what I have learned, plus my evaluation of it. Thus, my JKD is not confined by any kind of martial arts. On the contrary,I welcome those who like JKD to study it and improve it." - Bruce Lee

dose this mean you have to lean WC? no not at all, will it help? yes it would as would any thing one can learn about fighting would make you a better fighter.
what is taught to students of JKD is just the principles not one specific art or way of fighting in JKD you are given root examples of effective techniques, this is not teaching one or the other but simply demonstrating for one to observe and learn from.
the true training in JKD is to absorb the techniques that work for you and be able to apply them in a real fight this is why in the JKD method we spend hours of training "fighting". (i say fighting cause its not the type of sparing where punches and kicks are not pulled.)

My instructor told me once and i have herd this said many times by other instructors, perhaps its one of Lee's original quotes.

"every ones expression of JKD is unique, based on there own physical characteristics and attributes.a JKD trained person is able to respond, to blend in to the different attacks of his or her opponents.These skills are developed from hundreds of hours of training "flight time", experiencing and testing what works for the individual under many different combat conditions and with different opponents".

"The truth in combat is different for each individual. Research your own experiences for the truth. Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is specifically your own." - Bruce Lee


once you can understand this then branch out learn more take it all you can, watch MMA, UFC, boxing, kick boxing and even if you run into a street fight watch and learn to find the weakness that brought the losing opponent down study various martial art styles watch your own flaws via mirror or video discover the flaw in everything then fix it become a mechanic of martial arts.
Even broken clocks have a couple working parts.

so to put it simply...

JKD is there for you to plant the seeds feed it water and enjoy the fruit at the end of your labors and to prepare the next set of seeds in one big cycle building perfection onto perfection. So stop with limitations and labels and make it your JKD.

[focused_rage]

dose this mean you have to lean WC? no not at all, will it help? yes it would as would any thing one can learn about fighting would make you a better fighter.
what is taught to students of JKD is just the principles not one specific art or way of fighting in JKD you are given root examples of effective techniques, this is not teaching one or the other but simply demonstrating for one to observe and learn from.
the true training in JKD is to absorb the techniques that work for you and be able to apply them in a real fight this is why in the JKD method we spend hours of training "fighting". (i say fighting cause its not the type of sparing where punches and kicks are not pulled.)(i say fighting cause its the type of sparing where punches and kicks are not pulled.)

i didn't catch my error till now when i was reading over it the red line is the correction

[jkd96]

i train JKD from about 2 years and i understand that jeet kune do change your life and
and evolve your mind and budy, but this is what most of the fighting styles do, jeet kune do is different because you have no limitations

[gslack]

For me JKD in a nutshell was best described by this quote from Bruce lee.

"Take things as they are. Punch when you have to punch. Kick when you have to kick. "

I always liked that one... Simple and direct to the heart of it all IMHO!

[Browneagle]

Jeet Kune Do is a concept, nothing more, its not a "style" someone can teach. Dan Inosanto told me this himself. Its about opening your mind to different ranges of combat to suit you, one persons JKD is not the same as another persons. Thats why Bruce Lee said he wished he had never adopted the term, because people will take it as gospel, which sadly since his death that is what has happened.

Complete Rubbish! Inosanto also said "One cannot learn the principle roots of Jeet Kune do through the accumulation of many different styles for that would be like a singer trying to improve his voice by accumulating many songs. Rather it is by understanding the roots of the problem (page 145 of his book quoted from 1979)" He or his followers have clearly gone against that! People like Ted Wong, Bob Bremer, Tim Tacket and T Carruthers have not just been teaching a "concept" for decades. It is a unique art with its unique direction and mechanics, which you can only make your own once you have mastered them just like any other art. If you don't agree it is simply because you have not trained JKD with the correct dedication it needs. Bruce never used the work "Concept" to describe his art.

[february]

....yah

[American MMA]

As a former 'JKD guy', I think it's probably best to leave these kind of discussions to JKD people, instead of looking for answers from TKD people, Karate people, Jujutsu people, Wing Chun people, Kali people, Muay Thai people, MMA people, etc. etc. I no longer consider myself a 'JKD guy', by the way. I'm now what you might call a 'MMA guy', and I'll explain why in a just moment. What's important to note is that I am in fact a former 'JKD guy', so you can trust what I'm about to tell you concerning JKD.

Jeet Kune Do, or the 'Way of the Intercepting Fist' in Cantonese, was Bruce Lee's art and philosophy before he passed away. Jeet Kune Do is not to be confused with Wing Chun Gung Fu, nor is it to be confused with Jun Fan Gung Fu, as these are two entirely different systems. Nor should you confuse JKD with MMA, which is also something entirely different. Jeet Kune Do has a definate structure, just like any other martial art, and so it should not be confused with TKD or MMA, or anything else for that matter. JKD is JKD, so to find out how JKD people train, you have to ask a JKD person.

The first thing most people want to know are your references. I used to train in Jeet Kune Do under a certified instructor who prefers to remain anonymous. Through him, I was able to train with several original students of Bruce Lee, either directly or indirectly. Among their names are Dan Inosanto, Taky Kimura, Daniel Lee, Ted Wong, Larry Hartsell and others. I also learned a few things from Jesse Glover, but that's a totally different system. Jesse Glover is not a 'JKD guy', and he will tell you that himself. There has been some confusion in the MAP community regarding Dan Inosanto's JKDC methods, and Ted Wong's OJKD methods, but the truth is that both men actually learned from the same person, and both of them taught the same thing. Ted Wong actually got his certificate from Dan Inosanto, so the argument is pointless. There is no such thing as JKDC and OJKD, those are just names created by people from the MMA community who did not fully understand Bruce Lee's art and philosophy. There is only one Jeet Kune Do, and anything apart from that should not be confused with JKD.

I will admit, when I first heard about JKDC and what people were saying, I started to have my doubts about what Dan Inosanto was teaching. But after I finally got to know the guy, I realized that he wasn't teaching anything different from what other 'JKD guys' were teaching. There is no such thing as JKDC, just as there is no such thing as OJKD, and it often confuses me how people still think there's a difference between Dan Inosanto's methods and Ted Wong's methods. So to end this confusion, I've decided to openly share what probably should have been shared from the very beginning.

Bruce Lee studied philosophy at the University of Washington in 1961, and began teaching Jun Fan Gung Fu to fellow students including Jesse Glover, James DeMille and Charlie Woo, to name a few. At that time, JKD had not been born yet. Jun Fan Gung Fu is not Jeet Kune Do, so please do not get the two of them confused. Jun Fan Gung Fu is a version of Yip Man Wing Chun which Bruce Lee modified while he was living in Seattle, Washington. I've heard a lot of the original students at that time consider Jun Fan Gung Fu to consist of 80% Wing Chun, with only about 15% of that system including methods from other purely Chinese styles. Some of the lesser styles Bruce Lee implemented into his Jun Fan Gung Fu system are Tai Chi Chuan, Tang Lang Chuan, Ying Jow Pai, Choy Lee Fut, Hung Gar and Chin-Na, so in a big way I think you could very well consider Jun Fan Gung Fu to be a Chinese American martial art system based primarily on Yip Man Wing Chun.

Bruce Lee opened the very first Jun Fan Gung Fu institute in Seattle, at 4750 University Way, in 1963 to be exact. His assistant instructor at the Seattle school was Taky Kimura, but prior to this time Bruce Lee had also met Linda Emery, James Lee, Allen Joe, Wally Jay, Ed Parker and Ralph Castro, who all had a huge influence on Bruce Lee as time progressed. Bruce Lee published the book, 'Chinese Gung Fu: The Philosophical Art of Self Defense' in 1963, and it is the only book which was ever published during Bruce Lee's lifetime. If you read that book, you will have a very good idea of what Jun Fan Gung Fu consisted of in 1963, when Bruce Lee opened his first school.

Bruce Lee opened the second Jun Fan Gung Fu institute in 1964 in Oakland, which is where many people believe JKD was born. His assistant instructor at the Oakland school was James Lee, who Bruce awarded the 3rd rank to on March 4th, 1964. Then on August 2nd, 1964 is when Bruce Lee performed his famous demonstration at the Long Beach tournament with Dan Inosanto. That's also when Bruce Lee met Jhoon Rhee for the first time. Then in 1965, another Gung Fu master named Wong Jack Man challenged Bruce Lee to a fight at his Oakland studio. After their encounter is when Bruce Lee changed his philosophy and modified his own personal training regiment to create an entirely new system, which he called 'Jeet Kune Do'.

Jeet Kune Do was taught at the Jun Fan Gung Fu institute in Oakland, but only because Bruce Lee never changed the name of his school. Jun Fan Gung Fu is not the same thing as Jeet Kune Do, and I'll explain the difference to all of you right now. Jun Fan Gung Fu consists of classical forms, whereas Jeet Kune Do does not consist of any forms whatsoever. Jun Fan Gung Fu focussed primarily on modified Chi Sao drills. Jeet Kune Do still has Chi Sao drills, but it isn't focussed on nearly as much. I've heard a lot of the original students of Bruce Lee consider Jeet Kune Do to consist of 60% Wing Chun, 15% Western Boxing, and 15% Western Fencing, with only about 10% of that system including methods from other styles. Some of the lesser styles Bruce Lee implemented into his Jeet Kune Do system are Muay Thai, Savate, Taekwondo, Jujutsu, Judo, Western Wrestling and Chin-Na.

Now when I say Bruce Lee implemented different styles into his own personal unique system, I don't mean that he taught all those different systems at his school. It was not a MMA program. Bruce Lee only taught one system, JKD, which simply borrowed elements, principles or techniques from different styles and combined them into one formless art. By formless, I mean it did not have katas or kuens. JKD's main focus was on full-contact sparring, cardio exercizes and two-man drills. I don't know where people get the idea that Jeet Kune Do was made up of 26 different martial arts. That simply is not true. JKD was the next step in evolution from Jun Fan Gung Fu, which is why today many of Bruce Lee's students call it Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do, to distinguish it from MMA and other false JKD schools that try to use Bruce Lee's fame and philosophy to teach TKD, Karate, Gung Fu, Ninjutsu, Kali, Muay Thai, Aikido, or something else which isn't necessarily related to JKD in any way whatsoever. As I said before, JKD is not MMA, and it should never be confused as such when learning it directly.

Bruce Lee opened the third and final Jun Fan Gung Fu institute in Los Angelos, California at 628 College Street, in 1966 to be exact. Notice he kept the name of his school, but by this time he was teaching Jeet Kune Do, which was totally different from what he had taught Jesse Glover and his Jun Fan Gung Fu students in Seattle, with the exception of Taky Kimura, who Bruce Lee kept updated on the new JKD regiment. Many newcomers to the L.A. studio were former students of Ed Parker, so it's no wonder why a lot of Karate guys try to implement JKD elements into their training. Ed Parker's system is not Bruce Lee's system, however, nor should anyone ever confuse JKD with Karate, Judo, Taekwondo or anything else for that matter. Bruce Lee's assistant instructor at the L.A. school was Dan Inosanto, who had actually started training with Bruce Lee prior to the opening of the L.A. school. Bruce Lee had been training with Dan Inosanto, Tony Hum and Wayne Chan at a pharmacy in Los Angelos, but the first person to actually join the Jun Fan Gung Fu institute in L.A. was none other than Daniel Lee.

Bruce Lee awarded Dan Inosanto with the 3rd JKD rank in February of 1967. Bruce Lee awarded Taky Kimura with the 5th JKD rank on November 1st, 1967. Bruce Lee awarded Ted Wong with the 2nd JKD rank on December 8th, 1967. That year, Bruce Lee met Chuck Norris, Mike Stone and Joe Lewis in Washington, D.C. at a Karate tournament. Not one of these three guys lost a single fight during their JKD training with Bruce Lee.

Then in 1968, Bruce Lee closed down all three of his schools and suddenly abandoned the ranking system for unknown reasons. He permitted a few of his students to teach JKD, but only in small groups under very tight conditions. A few years after that, Bruce Lee fell into a mysterious coma and died before his last film, 'Game of Death', could be completed. He was buried at Lake View cemetary in Seattle, Washington. His pallbearers were Robert Lee, Taky Kimura and Dan Inosanto. The rest as they say, is history.

Shortly after that, Dan Inosanto opened his own Kali Academy where he continued to teach JKD in small groups. Dan Inosanto also gave JKD certificates to a few of the guys who were at the L.A. studio before it closed. Among them were guys like Ted Wong who he felt Bruce Lee would have trusted to preserve his martial arts legacy. The only problem with this is that Dan Inosanto didn't just teach JKD at the Kali Academy, he taught several different systems and scheduled several classes for each system he taught. So you had a lot of MMA guys who learned all these different styles from Dan Inosanto, and a lot of these MMA guys started to think that MMA was JKD, or that JKD was just a philosophy used in MMA training. That's where a lot of these different opinions and misconceptions came from. But it's important to note that Dan Inosanto taught JKD classes seperate from other classes. Never once did he teach Kali and call it JKD, nor did he ever teach Kenpo and call it JKD, because he was teaching different classes at the time. Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do is not MMA, nor is it a concept which can be applied or confused with other martial art systems. You can use the JKD philosophy to help you train in other martial art systems, but at no time should you ever get JKD confused with the style you are learning.

A good example would be if I took Wing Chun's philosophy and applied it to Karate. Yes, that is MMA training, and yes, it would probably be beneficial to my training in Karate, but to then consider Karate to be the same style as Wing Chun would be absurd, and that is what people are trying to do nowadays with JKD, they are labelling it as something that it is not. I no longer consider myself a 'JKD guy' because I know the difference, and because I respect Bruce Lee's art and philosophy for what it truly is. Even though I train in Wing Chun, Western Boxing, Western Fencing, Muay Thai, Savate and all these other styles, that does not mean I practice JKD, because JKD and MMA are two totally different things. JKD has a definate structure. It has footwork, sparring drills, fighting stances and techniques which are completely unique to JKD, therefore is important not to confuse that structure with any other structure you might have learned.

I truly hope this helps.

[Hannibal]

No one is actually doing this though so you are pretty much answering a problem that isn't there

[American MMA]

I think it's funny how people try to use the 'Tao of Jeet Kune Do' to try and justify their misconceptions. Apparently, it's now possible to learn martial arts from a book that you could read and understand in less than an hour.

^_^

Train on!

[Hannibal]

I think it's funny how people try to use the 'Tao of Jeet Kune Do' to try and justify their misconceptions.

Nearly as funny as those who ignore the writings and notes of the founder himself in favour of their own half-assed theories

Apparently, it's now possible to learn martial arts from a book that you could read and understand in less than an hour.


If by this you are referring to the aforementioned Tao it is revealing about you that you think it can either be read OR understood in an hour.

It is qualifies exactly why your profundities are largely being dismissed by others here - myself included

[American MMA]

I don't give 'half-assed' theories... I don't even give theories... Being completely 100% realistic and all other stuff aside, how is this Tao supposed to benefit my training? Does it do anything besides make you think? I have a Holy Bible on the shelf, if you need something to think about. Will these little meaningless philosophies help to make you faster, stronger, or more flexible in any way? All religion aside, I don't give two hoots about your philosophy. I have a more down-to-earth approach to understanding martial arts. It's called 'training'. Knowing is not enough. We must apply. Willing is not enough. We must do.

Is that not your Sijo's motto?

[Frodocious]

Please watch your language. Swearing is against the ToS.

[Hannibal]

I don't give 'half-assed' theories... I don't even give theories... Being completely 100% realistic and all other stuff aside, how is this Tao supposed to benefit my training? Does it do anything besides make you think? I have a Holy Bible on the shelf, if you need something to think about. Will these little meaningless philosophies help to make you faster, stronger, or more flexible in any way? All religion aside, I don't give two hoots about your philosophy. I have a more down-to-earth approach to understanding martial arts. It's called 'training'. Knowing is not enough. We must apply. Willing is not enough. We must do.

Is that not your Sijo's motto?

Once again your fail is showing

You cannot grasp the difference between knowing where we come from and where we are going to. I am not a fan of the Tao as a rule, although it is fascinating to read through one mans notes and see where his ideas and theories came from - a bit like reading Da Vinci's notebook. Whilst it may nt be immediately relevant it is a valuable insight into a historical figures thinking

You also have absolutely no idea about my training or experience or you would not throw out such a moronic back-handed insult. You can agree or diasgree with me at will, but my training and experience are unquestionable and proven daily

How about yours cool breeze?

[American MMA]

Originally posted by Hannibal:

Once again your fail is showing

You cannot grasp the difference between knowing where we come from and where we are going to. I am not a fan of the Tao as a rule, although it is fascinating to read through one mans notes and see where his ideas and theories came from - a bit like reading Da Vinci's notebook. Whilst it may nt be immediately relevant it is a valuable insight into a historical figures thinking

You also have absolutely no idea about my training or experience or you would not throw out such a moronic back-handed insult. You can agree or diasgree with me at will, but my training and experience are unquestionable and proven daily

How about yours cool breeze?

Hold on a second, my friend, wait just a minute. Let's get something straight. You cannot grasp the difference between knowing where I come from and where I am going. I know where you're from, and I don't care where you're going, because I'm going a seperate way.

And about your Tao... if it is not necessarily 'relevant', then how is it 'valuable'?

Also, I don't care about your training or your experience, because it means nothing to me. Once you can accept that, and put aside your ego, then perhaps... No, nevermind, I'm done with you.

As for my training, it's none of your concern. You don't know anything about me, so how do you expect to make me look like a fool, when all of your words are being witnessed by the entire MAP community, and others all around? Who looks like a fool now, Mister Ego?

Originally posted by Kuma:

If you want to be a backyard Bruce Lee, hey, more power to you. I wanted to be a cowboy when I was a kid too.

Heh, I love these little antics. Unfortunately, once again, you guys are putting words into my mouth, and that is where you continually screw up. Kuma, how many times are you going to make the same mistake? Open your eyes, man, learn to read.

I never once claimed to be a 'JKD guy'. You guys are the JKD guys... supposedly... If anyone wants to be Bruce Lee, it's you guys, or perhaps you're trying to convince yourselves that you all are just like Bruce Lee, in which case (wait for it) I still don't care. I don't wanna be like Bruce Lee, and I sure as (wait for it) heck don't wanna be like you. I never once claimed to practice Jeet Kune Do, all I did was take an interest in the mistakes you guys have made, and continue to make, constantly, without even knowing it. You are nowhere near my level, brother, so don't try to lecture me on things that you don't even know about. Okay? I used to practice JKD in the past, and if you must know, I probably grew up with some of your guy's teachers. I thought I might be able to help put aside some misconceptions that you guys are having, but I now see that I have made a huge mistake. For that, I apologize. There is no helping you, because you do not want to be helped. As for me, I am not at all like Bruce Lee, nor do I consider what I practice to be at all similar to Jeet Kune Do.

That's all I have to share with you, unfortunately...

Originally posted by Frodocious:

Please watch your language. Swearing is against the ToS.

I apologize.

[simon s]

American MMA, the problem is not with you, please don't take things the wrong way. People with experience (or not) are welcome here and are the guys/girls the newbys look to for advice.
Even us guys with experience can still learn from you.

The problem is with people coming on MAP telling us we are doing it wrong.

The reply will always be the same, put up or shut up." You will be asked to substantiate any claims you make, point us in the direction of your school, instructors, your you-tube channel and so on.

We are not doing it wrong, you are not doing it wrong, we are just on different paths. Calling someone a fool though is not how to win friends and influence people.

You don't want to post your training, which is fine, but can I suggest you add to your training log. This is where you can explain your workouts, both the training type and intensity.

[Hannibal]

Hold on a second, my friend, wait just a minute. Let's get something straight. You cannot grasp the difference between knowing where I come from and where I am going. I know where you're from, and I don't care where you're going, because I'm going a seperate way.

Where you I going is of no concern to me; where you are coming from is equally dull - however, when you offer an opinion on something that is pretty much wrong then , yeah it becomes up for debate

And you are still wrong by the way

Also, I don't care about your training or your experience, because it means nothing to me. Once you can accept that, and put aside your ego, then perhaps... No, nevermind, I'm done with you.

Bye then - don't let the door hit you in the ass.

Good way to hold a cogent argument together too....

As for my training, it's none of your concern. You don't know anything about me, so how do you expect to make me look like a fool, when all of your words are being witnessed by the entire MAP community, and others all around? Who looks like a fool now, Mister Ego?

Upon careful propenderance of the available facts....still you pretty much you actually

Heh, I love these little antics. Unfortunately, once again, you guys are putting words into my mouth, and that is where you continually screw up. Kuma, how many times are you going to make the same mistake? Open your eyes, man, learn to read.

We can read perfectly well, although clearly certain things have passed you by along the way

I never once claimed to be a 'JKD guy'. You guys are the JKD guys... supposedly... If anyone wants to be Bruce Lee, it's you guys, or perhaps you're trying to convince yourselves that you all are just like Bruce Lee, in which case (wait for it) I still don't care. I don't wanna be like Bruce Lee, and I sure as (wait for it) heck don't wanna be like you. I never once claimed to practice Jeet Kune Do, all I did was take an interest in the mistakes you guys have made, and continue to make, constantly, without even knowing it.

No, once again the mistake was yours and boy did you run with it!

And make no mistake I AM a "JKD guy"

You are nowhere near my level, brother, so don't try to lecture me on things that you don't even know about. Okay?

This is probably true - but if you train harder you might narrow the gap.

I used to practice JKD in the past, and if you must know, I probably grew up with some of your guy's teachers. I thought I might be able to help put aside some misconceptions that you guys are having,

I have no misconceptions at all sunshine

but I now see that I have made a huge mistake. For that, I apologize.

That's ok - you were wrong and now you see why

There is no helping you, because you do not want to be helped. As for me, I am not at all like Bruce Lee, nor do I consider what I practice to be at all similar to Jeet Kune Do.

Oh wait, you apparently don't

That's all I have to share with you, unfortunately...

Good

I apologize.

Accepted - move along now

[Kuma]

Also, I don't care about your training or your experience, because it means nothing to me. Once you can accept that, and put aside your ego, then perhaps... No, nevermind, I'm done with you.

I bet if you knew Hannibal's experience, you wouldn't be trying to tell him what JKD is and isn't.

Heh, I love these little antics. Unfortunately, once again, you guys are putting words into my mouth, and that is where you continually screw up. Kuma, how many times are you going to make the same mistake? Open your eyes, man, learn to read.

I had to look back and see, but apparently American MMA is getting his threads mixed up.

You are nowhere near my level, brother, so don't try to lecture me on things that you don't even know about. Okay?

So we can't assume about your training experiences, but automatically you assume no one else here is on your level? Hypocrite much?

[Pat g]

hey guys ,im new to this forum and i know this thread may be done, but i just want to say to focused rage, i don't think i've ever heard jkd described any better than your post... thank you,that should have answered most questions on what jkd is and what it isn't..and also to brown eagle, i agree that you can never make jkd your own until you have mastered the foundation on which it is built,jkd did not die with bruce lee , it is truly alive thanks to all the written info that bruce left behind and to many of his most dedicted original students,who have past along what they have learned from bruce lee

[Hannibal]

Ask two people what JKD is and you will get three different answers