A different Tai Chi/music question

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

Can anyone recommend some CDs of music to play while practicing Tai Chi Chuan? We have some really nice music that we use in my class, but lots of them are old CDs that aren't sold anymore, or are in jewel boxes without covers, and I have no idea what they are.

If anyone can suggest some music that would be suitable for use with the long form, I would very much appreciate it!

[nzric]

Massive Attack
Tosca (try the album Suzuki)
Thievery Corporation for something lighter

[Solomon]

^what kind of music is that?

[haaptic]

its called downtempo

- which is instrumental easy listening over hiphop beats

those bands are the most well known in that genre and were quite popular 4 to 8 years ago.

[The Toad]

We use "Reiki-The Light Touch" by Merlin's Magic.

[TM77]

I like some of the traditional Chinese music myself. Especially music featuring and instrument called the zither. I also like Japanese shakuhachi music.
You can also check out Yang Jwing Ming's website. He offers music especially for tai chi training.

I Ching Symphony by Frank Steiner Jr is a good cd also. The song Tui is probably one of the most beautiful I've ever heard.

[Johnno]

I'm going to disagree with all the replies posted so far. I subscribe to the view that the only accompaniment to practising Tai Chi is silence. Practising to music to me would be the perfect definition of a 'McDojo'. Tai Chi is a martial art, not a dance. Why do you want music for? To 'entertain' you while you practise? To make it seem more oriental and 'exotic'?

I don't want to offend anyone, but I find this topic quite bizarre!

[Shadowdh]

Johnno you old git ;-) some people prefer to use music with their practice as an aid to the meditative side of taiji... others cos they like it... each to their own and no way is the right way... or the wrong way is it now...

[Shadowdh]

And to be honest my shifu uses some music as the other students seem to want it their but when I am practicing I cant really hear the music... (I am too busy trying to get my form right...lol)

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

when I am practicing I cant really hear the music... (I am too busy trying to get my form right...lol)
Funny you should mention that, because I notice the same thing! I can hear it when we're warming up, and sometimes during the conditioning drills we do, but then I don't really notice it again until the end of class, when we're doing cooldown stretches. I guess it's there on some subliminal level, though.

What's funny is when my other class begins, and the Tai Chi music is still on, then some of the other students say "Can't we change the music; this stuff is putting me to sleep!" :D (Once we get going, I don't hear any of the music in that class, either).

[TM77]

I'm going to disagree with all the replies posted so far. I subscribe to the view that the only accompaniment to practising Tai Chi is silence. Practising to music to me would be the perfect definition of a 'McDojo'. Tai Chi is a martial art, not a dance. Why do you want music for? To 'entertain' you while you practise? To make it seem more oriental and 'exotic'?

I don't want to offend anyone, but I find this topic quite bizarre!

It's a matter of choice. I enjoy it myself but I can easily do without it.
And I know tai chi is a martial art but the moves are fluid and there is rythm involved so that, in a way, makes forms practice dancelike. Extremely slow dancing of course.
A lot of martial arts are practiced to music...like Capoeira and the African art of Kilindi Lyi and others. It can't hurt to practice Tai Chi to music as well.

[Johnno]

TM77,

In your last posting you made the point that Tai Chi has a rythm and so does the music which accompanies your practise. So do you find that you unconsciously adapt the rythm of your Tai Chi forms to fit in with the music? Or have you managed to find music which fits exactly with your forms? (!)

To everyone who replied to my posting, I'd just like to say sorry if I sounded a bit rude, and I certainly don't mean to put anyone down. I just found the idea of listening to music while practising Tai Chi (or any other martial art for that matter) to be rather peculiar, that's all. I mean, you're either concentrating on your forms or else you're listening to the music, but if you try to do both at the same time then one will suffer. And surely you want to be 100% focussed on your forms? It was very interesting to read the comments about you being unaware of the music once you started your forms. It does beg the question: "So what's the point in having music then?"

Best regards to you all.

[ZillaBilla]

During my research I came across a book (titled “Steal My Art”) about a master called T. T. Liang, who was a student of Cheng Man Ching. T.T. would teach his Tai Chi as a dance, with specific music for rhythm. As I understand, him and CMC fell out over some issues of which this was one, (from what I remember). However, later in time CMC saw T. T's classes and approved of the idea, or something like that. So, I think from what I've read that both ways work. Personally though, I have done both ways, and the music definitely adds more to the flow, as in your intent can follow the tone of the music, like following an opponent. However, without music my intent is deeper, and when I finish the form I feel like I just woke up and don’t know what I've been doing for the past 20 minutes (dont take that too literally). My conclusion would be that each way has its pro's and con's and perhaps a balance of the two is better than either one on its own. Most importantly is that whatever way you do it, the main emphasis should be on keeping relaxed, so that the practice is ingrained in the mind & body in such a way that it can manifest spontaneously, or that’s what I think anyway.

[JohnnyX]

How's about some Classical Music?

[daftyman]

Music can help to maintain the 'sticking of the class as a whole if it is learned in a way that the postures end on particular beats, so that for me would be a good thing as the class is always better when everyone is in sync.

My school doesn't use music, but one class that I was taking we looked at doing the form with consant flow and allowing people to find their own pace. This meant that people finished at different times. One of the students mentioned that it almost made her feel ill. I am sure we all know what its like when almost everyone is in sync and some 'bozo' is off doing their own thing, it breaks the harmony.

There is a story my teacher told me:
he was taking a class and talking about sticking, but there was a student their that just did not seem to go with the flow of the rest of the class. Eventually my teacher mentioned it to her. Her reply was something like:
"I am sticking, it's just that no-one is sticking with me!"
Kinda missed the point there. Music could be used to get these people to stick with the class with greater ease.

I think that music can also act as a buffer between sounds from outside the class. Reduce the distraction level. It could also help some people to quieten their thoughts. The question would be to find the right music to suit the form.

I've used music in rooting practice, as it makes the minutes go by that little bit quicker and it can save you from looking at your watch.

I don't practice to music, but if I was trying to practice where there was too much background noise, I would consider changing my opinion. Thinking about it I would go for trance type stuff for the solo form, something a little quicker to practice sword, and maybe something a bit rougher for sabre practice.

[Kwajman]

Try some of the old music by a japanese artist named "Kitaro". Very peaceful, very melodic.

[ZillaBilla]

Hey Vampyre Rat,

No disrespect or smart assness intended. You said ‘I've used music in rooting practice, as it makes the minutes go by that little bit quicker and it can save you from looking at your watch.’ From my experience the real growth in ones root comes from putting your intent (Qi) in to your toes, the two points either side of your (Yo Chien Gate) ‘bubbling wells’ and the center of the heel. After a while this gives a sensation of sinking in to the ground, sinks deeper with more practice. Now maybe you do so anyway, but with music, I don’t really know. I just figured that from the limited information available to me from your comment, it makes me think that you just stand without any internal work, but this is just my assumption. Just thought I’d give some friendly advice, though it may not even be required. Cheers. Once again, my comment is all assumption based, and is not offensive.

[Johnno]

Yes, a group of people doing a form together should stay in sync. But they should be able to do this by sensing the movements of those around them (even while concentrating on their own form.) Using music to keep in sync gives me a mental picture of something like a waltz: "One-two-three! One-two-three!" etc. which makes me smile.

I'm trying to be open-minded about this, but despite the arguments in favour of it, I just instinctively feel that doing forms to music just runs contrary to, er, something....!!!

Some kind of Taoist thing? I can't explain it. Does anyone else feel the same, or am I in a minority or one here?

[daftyman]

When I use music it stops me thinking about how much time I've spent in the posture, I can 'let go' of that part of me that wants to know how long the pleasure/agony is going to last, this lets me then look at myself internally to see what the various parts are doing, checking the alignment of my hips, that my knee isn't anywhere it shouldn't be, and particularly what my sole is like. I can try to relax more. It has a calming effect.

I do not think about particular points of the foot. The image I use/have is that of a camel's foot spreading out in a relaxed manner to absorb the pressure. This was a point that was raised at a workshop I attended and I found it helped me to connect with the gound. It's a feeling of embracing the ground (not to be confused with the 'monkey foot' grabbing that some folk do).

I appreciate your concern that I might be missing out on something Zillabilla, but I can assure you that the internal get's a thorough seeing to! Cheers!

[daftyman]

Using music to keep in sync gives me a mental picture of something like a waltz: "One-two-three! One-two-three!" etc. which makes me smile.
I think I'm right when I say that the "One-two-three! One-two-three!" is what TT Liang used.

On of the priciples of tai chi is sticking, on that I think we all agree, but some people are unwilling to give that part of themselves up, they feel that people should conform to them. A lot of people that would not abey the tempo of the class would probably abey the tempo of the music.
It could be easier to stick to the music and then, later, reduce the volume until the class can do the form in silence with sticking that truly rocks.
I'm doing a bit of the devil's advocate here as my school doesn't use it as part of it's practice, but I think I can see its worth.

[Johnno]

My experience is of groups sticking together pretty well throughout the form without music, but perhaps my experience isn't typical in this respect.

I always found that when I did the form in class it was a lot slower than when I practised on my own at home, and slowing it to the pace of the group not only required discipline, but developed my physical strength and stamina far more than anything else I've ever done.

[daftyman]

I quite agree with everything you say, in the classes I go to (w/o music) the level of sticking always improves as the students progress through learning the form.
Unfortunately there are some very undisciplined people out there who won't 'let go'.

Would I use music in a class? No

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

Many interesting points here! When we were doing the long form in my class last night, the front row (the one I was in) stayed perfectly in sync, but when we turned to a position that allowed us to see the back row, I was startled to see that they were about a whole posture ahead of us. And that was with music, so maybe we really weren't hearing the music at all. Why the back row got so far ahead, I don't know -- it doesn't usually happen.

I still like having the music to start out with (especially during the warm-up at the beginning of class), even if I am probably tuning it out once we start the form.

Another good point about using the music to cover up distracting sounds -- when you're located in a city, with open windows (due to no air conditioning), there's something to be said for covering up distractions.

On the other hand, we sometimes practice outdoors; then we have to learn to overcome the increased levels of distractions that are all around us -- traffic, people, dogs, airplanes coming in for a landing, the sounds of the river, etc.

[Monkeymagic]

I have tried to use music but find I am doing Tai Chi to the music rather than to my bodies rythem, I seem to loose my centre and get distracted more.

In our society we do not use music but we still have some people that love doing the form to music or even worse with there eyes closed (I think they find it helps to relax them, but I find if you dont have some concentration during a set Tai Chi can become very sloppy and its easy to loose where you are).

On the point of sticking I agree that when a group practices together alot the timing is better but saying that. I have been in a class full of instructors who each have there own idea of the speed of a set and there sticking has been awful. So maybe personalities get in the way sometime. I have noticed when Im on a corner during a set just how much you can change the speed of a set.

[Monkeymagic]

[Another good point about using the music to cover up distracting sounds -- when you're located in a city, with open windows (due to no air conditioning), there's something to be said for covering up distractions.

On the other hand, we sometimes practice outdoors; then we have to learn to overcome the increased levels of distractions that are all around us -- traffic, people, dogs, airplanes coming in for a landing, the sounds of the river, etc.[/QUOTE]

But isnt part of Tai Chi being aware of your surrondings, being at one with your surroundings, not trying to block everything out with music or by closing your eyes.
I think it makes Tai Chi more interesting when there are distractions, it makes you think more about what your doing. Its nice and easy praticing a form in a calm room but sometimes its fun to do it outside where there are noises and no points of referance and things like trees and holes in the ground make your Tai Chi more reactive rather than passive.

[Shadowdh]

Great point by Monkey in the last post there... I tend to agree that music should not rule the rythym of the way you practice taiji.. it may build reliance on practicing with that music all the time or disenable (is that a word) you from feeling your qi and bodys natural rythyms after a while... the comment I made about not hearing the music was perhaps not explained too well.. I know its there but I am not focused on it but am focused on my form... its the same when I weight train... I can hear the music between sets but when I am moving the weight the music fades... and theres just me and the weights.... same kind of thing happens with taiji except my awareness level is higher than in weight training... also as for groups staying together when practicing... I would have thought that in free practice (ie when you are doing it in the park with a group of people that there would be some difference in tempos....

[JohnnyX]

I'm in the UK.

I think that I have seen a CD with specially composed Tai Chi music.

I have seen it a few times in places like a Motorway Services Shop or the Gift Shop when you go to visit something like a Stately Home or similar attraction.

There is a 'stand' with all different kinds of CD's and there is a grid of buttons that correspond to the CDs in the 'stand'. You can press a button and have the CD playing in the shop. One of the other CDs has Dolphins on its cover and there is another that seems to have a picture of the Sea or Waves on it.

There always seems to be the same set of CDs wherever you see that 'stand'.

I'm sure that one says Tai Chi on it.

Anybody else know what I mean? :confused:

[Shadowdh]

Yep I know what you mean saw it at the London aquarium a little while ago but when I pushed the button to listen it didnt give me enough to know if it was good or not... I have got some music on the pc which is really nice.. I dont use it when practicing but just to listen too...

[daftyman]

I think the whole music debate deals with our attitude to distraction. I once did a form outside my tent during a camping trip to Arran (Scottish Island). There was a young lad who could not help doing the 'point and laugh' approach to anything that was outside his view of the world. What did I do? I tried to relax and continue my form, with some success. I did not try to confront the distraction head-on, just allow it to wash over and go away, which the lad eventually did. That way I was able to maintain a level of relaxation and enjoy my form.

We should be able to do our form anywhere that has enough space. We are aware of our surroundings, but not necessarily governed by them. If you find music helps to deal with the distractions and help your form, then great. If you cannot do the form without music....then I think that there is something to work towards.

I liked the remark about the teachers' demonstration and the awful sticking. I'm sure that the major texts state that sticking is vital for mastery of tai chi, and that in push hands you have to first follow where the opponent is going before leading him to distruction, which makes me think that if they are trying to force their own tempo on the group they've missed the point big time. Very dissappointing.

[daftyman]

Here's an alternative to the whole music thing.

Anyone watched many tai chi demo videos? Our school tends to watch a few each christmas (Cheng Man-ching, Ben Lo, etc). We end up turning the volume off, because that horrible jangly music is only ok for a couple of minutes.

I also watched a video of a taichi competition (CMC Forum thingy in France) and ended up hitting the ffwd for large tracts of it. This gave me a thought: fast forward taichi demonstrations done to the Benny Hill Theme!

What alternatives would you suggest for a backing track for a demo video?

[Johnno]

My Mum (bless her) gave me a tape of 'Tai Chi music' for my birthday once. It was by some Chinese bloke. It was quite pleasant in places, but generally very bland. I listened to it once. I would never dream of putting it on while practising.

I agree with the points about outside sounds and just learning to accept them and deal with them. Using music to block out other sounds seems pointless to me, because what is the music but another outside sound? The only differnce is that you have chosen it. But what happens if one time you cannot have music for some reason? Will your Tai Chi suffer as a result?

Keeping our form in sync with the rest of the group requires us to let go of our ego for a bit and merge ourself into the group. An excercise in Taoism!

[Shadowdh]

Good post by Vampyre Rat... Since starting taiji and meditation I find that I can let the distractions wash over and through me... not affecting what I am doing... I will have some practice with that as I am going on a couple of trips in the next few months so will have to practice either outside or the hotels gym/aerobics room...

[TM77]

TM77,

In your last posting you made the point that Tai Chi has a rythm and so does the music which accompanies your practise. So do you find that you unconsciously adapt the rythm of your Tai Chi forms to fit in with the music? Or have you managed to find music which fits exactly with your forms? (!)



There are times when I find the music and the form are in sync. Most of what the sifu plays is very slow and relaxing. But I don't intentionally focus on moving to the music. When I train alone I don't play music at all.

[Novex]

I personally wouldn’t want to do my T'ai Chi to music, but further to what ZillaBilla was saying earlier about T’ai chi and music my Shi-fu was talking recently about T’ai chi dance which is a separate form of T’ai chi. I think it might be similar to Ba Gwa but instead of having the pattern on the floor determining the form of movements used, you respond to the music and whatever form (i.e. bird, snake, tiger etc..) the music inspires you try to incorporate into you movements.

I do like the idea of using music to help relaxing into posture training though, we do three balls posture quite a lot and I find after about 5 min I can’t let go and start to tense up, will definitely try this with music to see if I can go for longer, thanks for the tip!

But ultimately wouldn’t the goal be to achieve the same amount of time without music to help, and the same goes for finding the rythum of the form as well!

[daftyman]

But ultimately wouldn’t the goal be to achieve the same amount of time without music to help, and the same goes for finding the rythum of the form as well!
yes
(some people just need a helping hand to get started.)

[rosietai]

try some of these out. Go to amazon.com and listen to the samples

Dr Paul Lan has 2 disc in the mind body soul range - covers the same design but different colours I use both. One for the 24 and the other for mandarin duck

TAi chi by oliver shanti ( but avoid tai chi too - it is .............. - not good!)

go to silkorchestra site and have a listen to their music - escpecially composed for different forms ( I don't have it)

Geroge Fenton - beyond the mountains was the theme music for a BBC chinese program - very good

Sertnity tai chi healing ( ..... go elsewhere unless fond of thunderstorms)

the qigong ru site has hundreds of clips to download - some are ok for qigong

taichimaster site has some odd clips

or simply go to amazon and do two searches - one for tai chi in the music section and the other for chinese music (you'll get the silkorchestra)

Hope this helps

PS Buddist chants and pice the first 24minute track is excellent for slowing beginners down and keeping people in step - very, very slow - although it is distressing when you start to sing along (especially since I don't speak a work of chinese!)

[JohnnyX]

Whilst I was on holiday, 1st 'event' every morning alternated between Aerobics or Tai Chi - in the pool.

I don't know if anybody has suggested this type of music, but for the Tai Chi they used Enya.

Sounded very good and seemed to fit quite well.

P.S. No I didn't try it out - I was busy warming up for Football/Basketball/Volleyball. :D

Cheers.

[Johnno]

Can anyone recommend any great film theme tunes which I could whistle while I'm doing my forms? And some good TV programmes to watch while I practise Chi kung? I have a low boredom threshold, and I'm scared of silence...

;)

[daftyman]

Serious answer:
Whistle? In my school we do the form with the mouth closed and the tip of the tongue in contact with the base of the upper incisors (or the palate immediately behind them.) So whistling is out. As for humming? well that would be possible, but we are trying to keep our breathing as natural as possible. Humming would disrupt that.

Although a lot of people a totally against music (and there are a loads of them about) whenever anyone suggests something it is always the calming soothing not too brassy type of thing. Cradle of Filth or Slayer would probably not be a good choice, but Enya (see prev post) or some other trancey type of thing. You could look for a calm piece of classical music (preferrably that will last for the entirety of the form without major 'mood' changes)

Not quite so serious answer:
Try humming the theme from 'Once upon a time in China!'

TV? Well there is a high level tai chi instructor that was seen doing his practice infront of the tv with the news on. He was asked why and he said it was because of his relatives. The first they knew about a military uprising/conflict was when the tank came through the living room wall! So do your chi kung watching the news!