How would you feel?

[blackbelt_judoj]

Ok so here is the deal. You have just died. What's more, you find you know you are dead, therefore there is still a certin part of you that exists to make that realisation. Good news so far.

All your life you have believed in god(s), whatever form they have taken, and so you are now on the look out for said God(s). You now discover that you were completely wrong about your religion. Lets say you were a christian and you find that the Islamic faith was correct or visa versa etc. Reflecting back over your life how do you feel? Was it wasted? Did your religion let you live your life to the full or did it put needless restrictions on you? Would you still live your life the same way again given the chance or would you change it if that meant changing who you essentially were? Can i hear from anyone with strong religious views?

Personally my concern for those who follow a religion is that by some random chance (now remember that this is only my view) life has been created on this planet and by an even more incredible chance, you are alive. If you are religious then i see that huge restrictions have been placed on you, stopping you doing a lot of things that (if it turns out god is not real) are not in essence "bad". Lets remember that even if you are not religious, the majority of our laws today were first laid out by the church, and thus in a weird kind of way, religious laws are being iposed upon you. How does everyone else feel about that?

Kind regards

[Dr NinjaBellydance]

Ok so here is the deal. You have just died. What's more, you find you know you are dead, therefore there is still a certin part of you that exists to make that realisation. Good news so far.

All your life you have believed in god(s), whatever form they have taken, and so you are now on the look out for said God(s). You now discover that you were completely wrong about your religion. Lets say you were a christian and you find that the Islamic faith was correct or visa versa etc. Reflecting back over your life how do you feel? Was it wasted? Did your religion let you live your life to the full or did it put needless restrictions on you? Would you still live your life the same way again given the chance or would you change it if that meant changing who you essentially were? Can i hear from anyone with strong religious views?

Personally my concern for those who follow a religion is that by some random chance (now remember that this is only my view) life has been created on this planet and by an even more incredible chance, you are alive. If you are religious then i see that huge restrictions have been placed on you, stopping you doing a lot of things that (if it turns out god is not real) are not in essence "bad". Lets remember that even if you are not religious, the majority of our laws today were first laid out by the church, and thus in a weird kind of way, religious laws are being iposed upon you. How does everyone else feel about that?

Kind regards


As I dont really prescribe to any form of organised religion, I'm not sure if I'm who you're after, but here goes anyway!
I usually try to do what I believe is 'right' in terms of what my own concience tells me. I'm aware that this gives me a moral code that is unique to me (although I dont think there's too much that's really out there!) Sometimes I do things that I think are right at the time, and decide later werent. Where possible, I admit cupability and apologise, or at least accept the consequences. Sometimes I do things that I know are wrong, and I do them anyway. I accept that in this respect I am a bad person and am prepared to accept the consequnces of my actions. Because I'm not a traditionally religious person, I've never done anything because I think my 'higher being' wants me to, or because I think it'll get me into 'heaven'. I do it because my concience tells me I can either live with it or accept the consequences. I've often wondered what would happen if it turned out that there was a god, and eventually decided that I have lived my life to the best of my capabilities and have tried to be a 'good' person, for no other reason than it seemed the right thing to do. If god condems me for this just because I didnt do it in his/her/its name they can shove their nirvana!
:rolleyes:

[gerard]

Let me ask you something BBJ:

Do you meditate daily?

If you do it for a while you'll find the answer to what is nagging your mind.


Regards.

[MuayKiDo]

I am not religious, but i often ponder on questions like these. Your dillemma is stil apllicable to me--> what if i, after spending my whole life as a non believer, find out that there is a one true god?:
I think that in my case, it depends on the consequenses. If i end up in hell, or suffer some kind of other eternal punishment in after life, yes maybe i would like to re-live my life as a believer. But on the other hand, what gives a a holy entity the right to punish me if he/she makes mistakes to, because the world is far from perfect. I think that i would confront the god(s) with this and some related questions.
If i even get the chance to relive my life as a believer, i do no think i would accept it. I have no regret for not believing in a religion that leaves the world in his current, messy state. Reconsidering, if i end up in hell i would rather try to kill myself. No one can stop me on that. Or maybe i would fight--> 'they' would have to kill me for good to stop me. But more on topic--> no, i wouldn't have any big regrets for not believing in 'the one and only the holy'.

[Kwajman]

Not at all, I think that if you believe in a religion and spend time trying to improve yourself and to become a better person, you and the world will have become a better place because of it. I don't know how that could be viewed as failing in your spiritual or secular life. :Angel:

[Matt Molloy]

Whilst being agnostic these days on the subject of gods and holding a personal belief in most of the tenets of the Buddhist way, I would tend towards the view that if one lived sincerely by the rules of your faith without extremism (and with a genuine desire to do good rather than evil whilst recognising that all beings are imperfect and will fall from the way occaisionally), any god that didn't then admit one to their heaven due to some points of dogma would not be one worth following.

Or in the words of NinjaBellydance, "..they can shove their nirvana." :)

As for living a different life the second time round. I find this a self defeating option as I wouldn't then be me.

Hope this makes sense.

Cheers,

Matt.

[nzric]

blackbelt - I think the gist of your question is more about the trappings of religion than anything else. All major religions have a core of caring for those you have direct contact with, and treating others the way you would like to be treated. I actively don't practice any religion but I know that if I'm wrong and St Peter is waiting up there beside the pearly gates, I'd have a good case to argue if I had lived the way I know is "right" (i.e. being an active, decent member of society).

If there's a god or gods who think wearing a little hat, or eating a certain type of animal, or worshipping a certain individual is more important than being a moral/righteous person, I have no time for those gods and I'd rather take my chances.

[Alexander]

You might want to read, if you haven't already, 'The Da Vinci Code' by Dan Brown, then 'Cracking the Da Vinci Code' by someone else whose name I can't currantly remember. The first is a story, but the second is the facts behind the story. They really are quite interesting though and show a lot of things to do with modern law and the influence of the Catholic church over the past two millennia.

Being Atheist I'd probably be stuffed if I came across any of the major Gods (Yahwey, Allah, or I AM) if they are how they describe themselves in their respective holy books as the very fact that I refused to acknowledge their existance would give me a one way ticket to hell. But as everyone else on this thread so far seems to have said, if you have lived a good life and the God sends you to hell because you didn't bow to them, then they are a total and utter b#$%^&d who wouldn't be worth following anyway.

[blackbelt_judoj]

Ok, so let me expand (on a bit of a tangent) on my original question: -

If you were involved in a religious war (be it NATO vs "random culture with religious issues"), if it came to meeting your maker would you still be able to justify your actions morally? Remember that a soldier has very little choice in where or how he conducts his "business". I ask because the previous replies to my post all state that (roughly) if you have lived a good life then all is well regardless of religion. Is war in the name of religion acceptable/ justifiable infront of "God"? Who defines a "good life" and is an atheists defenition of a good life based on religious views? So many question, so little time!

I'd really apreciate it if someone could try and tackle even a few of these. Thanks :)

[HearWa]

As a Buddhist, one has read the logic behind rebirth as well as the truths that permeate all existence. The enlightened Buddha (Siddhattha Gotama) exponded the Dhamma in its perfect form. So perfect, in fact, that (imho) no man can better it.

What's great about Buddhism is it is a path of the here-and-now. If you're interested, here's a famous Sutra teaching about the benifits of Buddhism in the here and now. Notice this is for the clergy, and not necessarily written for the laymen, but the more general areas still apply to us (the lay Buddhist community).
http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dn02.htm

Zen Buddhism in particular pays specific attention to taking the clouds away from our eyes and revealing Samsara for what it really is, Nirvana (Nibbana). See the Ox-herding pictures of Zen Buddhism for more information.

Most Buddhists try to cultivate the selfish virtue of the Bodhicittva (valueing anothers life more than your own). This is brought of by the practice of Bodhisattva, which is brought on by the practice of meditation. As a matter of fact, Buddhism has many methods of cultivating the virtues of compassion, equanimity, loving-kindness and appreciative joy.

But why do Buddhists try to cultivate this Great Compassion? Basic-goodness, as well as enjoying the blameless results of virtue. Also, compassion brings us inner-peace and inner-strength. See: Buddhism, the Path of the Heart: http://www.quangduc.net/English/philosophy/12thepath.html

The only thing you can really have is what you carry along with you after death. What is this? Your virtue and your vices, the very Karma spouted from your intentions. Buddhists cultivate compassion because it brings them positive results, as well as others. By violating Basic-goodness, our conscious mind will haunt us. Have you ever actually seen a peaceful serial killer? A happy man starting a fight? No, these violate our basic-goodness, and being subject to the rounds of Samsara (see: the eight realsm of existence. Also note these are literal, as well as metaphorical mind states that we experience in the here-and-now) we reap what we sow (karma).

I feel like I'm jabbering on here (I just returned home from work -- graveyard shift!), but if you have any questions feel free to ask. I'll try to help. :)

[af_sting]

I often theorize that the afterlife may indeed simply be the instance of death. This may sound a little abstract, but since your consciousness is based on the awareness of your brain, and your brain functions on energy, then at the moment of death, that energy ends and you leave the worlds consciousness. But to you there will be a point where that instance of energy becomes infinite. I mean, essentially you form your own heaven or hell. If you're a person with many demons, you'll certainly be in hell. If you are a person who judges yourself (yes yourself) as meeting the criteria of your own beliefs then off to heaven (a preconceived heaven I suppose) you'll go.

Yes, I know it's a bit abstract, but I sometimes ponder it.

-Sting

[blackbelt_judoj]

I often theorize that the afterlife may indeed simply be the instance of death.

Yeah, i kind of like that idea. I like to think of myself as scientifically minded and this seems to follow... to a point.

I have been strangled unconcious many times through my judo. On one occasion i very nearly died. It was quite serious. I can safely say that i was about as unconcious as you can get before you sufer brain damage. Unfortunatly, at no point was i aware of any "after life" or crossing over. Nor did time stretch out to eternity. Sorry.

Another consideration is that as you are dying, less and less oxygen gets to your brain so you will actually be suffering massive brain damage. Surely this would restrict the brain from momentarily, with it's last dying moment, creating a heaven or hell etc. Prehaps some others of you out there will be able to say otherwise.

[nzric]

AF sting - that's a very similar philosophy to that of Timothy Leary. He did a lot of writing about death and society's attitude towards it, after he was diagnosed with incurable disease. You might want to check it out.

blackbelt_judoj, I disagree about your view of a soldier. Anybody has a choice, and in this day and age nobody (whether it's a nazi footsoldier, a suicide bomber or a prison guard at abu ghraib) should be able to get out of it by saying they were "just following orders". People know in their hearts whether what they're doing is right or wrong, and there should be no excuse for going against what you think is right.

It's like the extraneous parts of all religions, like eating pigs. What if there was a mistranslation and Yahweh actually said it's a sin to eat ducks but pigs were ok? does that mean Jews will all go to hell because they ate ducks? No, because the important thing is whether you truly hold a belief in your heart and are willing to follow a certain course of action based on true faith. That's the meaning of the story of god testing Abraham by ordering him to kill his son (btw, I'm an atheist).

[Humblebee]

The only thing you can really have is what you carry along with you after death. What is this? Your virtue and your vices, the very Karma spouted from your intentions. Buddhists cultivate compassion because it brings them positive results, as well as others. By violating Basic-goodness, our conscious mind will haunt us. Have you ever actually seen a peaceful serial killer? A happy man starting a fight? No, these violate our basic-goodness, and being subject to the rounds of Samsara (see: the eight realsm of existence. Also note these are literal, as well as metaphorical mind states that we experience in the here-and-now) we reap what we sow (karma).

Yeah i completely agree,i'm also a practising Buddhist a different sort but yeah great piece of guidance thank you

[Andy Cap]

Whilst being agnostic these days on the subject of gods and holding a personal belief in most of the tenets of the Buddhist way, I would tend towards the view that if one lived sincerely by the rules of your faith without extremism (and with a genuine desire to do good rather than evil whilst recognising that all beings are imperfect and will fall from the way occaisionally), any god that didn't then admit one to their heaven due to some points of dogma would not be one worth following.

Or in the words of NinjaBellydance, "..they can shove their nirvana." :)

As for living a different life the second time round. I find this a self defeating option as I wouldn't then be me.

Hope this makes sense.

Cheers,

Matt.

I agree pretty much with what he said.

[Infrazael]

Very good question.

I am personally what is known as "Dark Neopagan" thus I usually communicate to the Gods and Goddesses of the Underworld and Night, ie Hecate, Morrigan, Anubis.

Anyways, if I am completely wrong, and say, Christianity was right and God condemned me to Hell for eternity, I would go with my head up high saying I have lived my life to the fullest.

If he wishes to punish me for my own sins, then by all means do so, but I find fault in his logic. Sure, you may have given me a chance to believe. But with what? When all that did was impose rules in my life, not allowing me to follow MY personal path. If you were all powerful, why not just show yourself??? Why do you have to hide in the shadows??? Surely you don't NEED to hide???

Of course he doesn't, if he is real, if he is all powerful. I would also ask him why he created me KNOWING I will be condemned, why he created millions of innocents KNOWING that most of them would be condemned just like me.

Yes, I would ask him that, and I would face Hell not with fear and despair, but with Honor and Pride.

[MarioBro]

Well, here I go again....posting when I really should not...

If it happens that when I die, it turns out there is a God, no matter which religion, I would be really shocked and upset that he/she/it was too stubborn and/or arrogant to just let me in on it. (Before anyone says that he tried...don't bother, that is a lame thing that religious people say).

I have said before...I do not have my wife tell my kids that I exist and to just believe her and follow my rules (perhaps my wife or others who know of my existence could write them a book!)...they would never comply, nor would I expect them to as I am a reasonable man (IMHO).

In order to have my children behave the way I want (in my image), I would talk to them, show myself to them and explain the whys and how comes directly to them. I have the power to do so, and I will be upset if they misbehave, so why would I do anything else, as a reasonable man? Perhaps if there is a God then he/she/it is not so reasonable and perhaps I do not want to spend an eternity with he/she/it.

[zenmonk]

Very good question. I belong to Christian church but think of all religions as "one"... like I don't think there's a need to have certain rules about whether to eat meat or how often you should pray etc. etc. I think all religions (and even science) point into same one goal which I guess in Tao (or Zen - and I don't mean Zen Buddhist, just Zen) is somehow quite nicely put.

I don't know exactly "what religion kind of thinker I am" but my thoughts came first and then I saw lots of similarities with zen & tao... like if you cut the "rituals" out of buddhism or christianity and focus on "good life" (don't ask me to explain this :)) you kind of get into a point where your death... or let's say "afterlife" goes as smoothly as your life does.

So - I have no worries about that.

(unless of course I'm kind of a wrong here with my "united religion theory" and there is a final judgement then I'm in a deep pile of poo ;))

[megk]

Wow! Great question.

I am a Christian, and if I found out after death that I was wrong and the very center of my life was false....I would be upset and dissapointed, but I would not have any regrets. My life is lived to the fulliest because of what I believe. I wouldn't regret one turned down drink, or passed on joint. I wouldn't regret one sunday not sleeping in. I would regret nothing. I do not harm people for my faith so I can not answer the question of fighting wars over religion. I wouldn't even regret sharing my faith with others.

Here's the deal for me. When I got saved I fell in love with God, because I felt like he loved me so much more deeply. Once I acknowledged his love for me and began returning it to him, I wanted to do everyting possible to live by his precepts. I want to follow his rules because they are indeed for my benifit. I follow them out of desire not out of obligation. I suppose that is why I would have no regrets.

[chapskins]

To answer the orig question, if i was a religious type, i'd be like, YOU WHAT , iv'e been following and doing this cr.p for however long and it's just a whole heap of plop, well gutted i would be

[BendzR]

Very interesting thread.

I am a Christian but I do not consider myself a religios person. Now most Christians, and most people think this is a contradiction.

Funniest thing about Christianity, is that people dont read in between the lines and realise that the Core to Christianity - Jesus Christ - was against Religion as a whole.

Jesus himself said that religion restricts people (I think that's the main purpose of the initial question to this thread, "do you think that you would be against your own religion if you found out it was only good for its restrictions")

Personally I could probably be considered Agnostic in some ways, at the same time. I have come to the point where I myself believe, that the only thing I can know and believe for sure, is that I don't know anything other then the things I have personally observed first-hand.

This is where faith comes in for me. Faith and Religion to me, are very different.

If I was to die, and I found my Faith is flawed, I would be dissapointed, but its hard to answer this because I haven't really experienced it, just imagined it.

I have faith, as far as Christian values go, that they benefit me, even if I don't always know how, so in that aspect I wouldnt regret it at all. A good example, is how it is written that God told the people, through his representatives that they shouldn't eat meat and drink milk at the same time. He gave no explanation. Now in modern day science, we know that drinking milk and eating meat at the same time isnt very healthy for you. God didn't tell them to do it because he wanted to put barriers and authority over the people, but only because its a simple law of the world that he created. Milk n Meat dont mix!

Anyways, just one more thing.. How do people in here actually define "Hell"? I am not convinced the bible is purely written as we as people today perceive it, and as a result I don't believe "HELL" is this place where we are sent to suffer for eternity because God is sadistic. My explanation of Hell has made many people think differently on these things, so I will share. Give me your thoughts on this.

Here goes..

Imagine you were to die right now, and you were Atheist. You arrive at "Heaven" which is by my definition, not a city of gold, or whatever, but purely a place that is "in the presence of the ultimate reality that is God". Until this moment you could not grasp the significance of being in the presence of your creator. As soon as you step into this realm that is the presence of God, you realise that this presence completes you in every single way. It makes you understand your meaning and place in the universe. And more.

Now it gets bad. God tells you that, by putting you on earth, he has made you sit a test of "free will" where you personally decide what you wish to do with ur destiny. God wants you to choose him, but if you don't choose him, then he will not force you to be in his presence at moment of "moving over the next life". Since you were Atheist, you obviously chose an after-existance of "NOT in God's presence". God will not kick your ass or burn you for eternity. He doesn't hate you, nor is he a sadistic ass. He simply tells you to leave. He will not have you be in a place that you didn't choose to be at.

Hell then is defined to you, as nothing else, but the "Not Heaven". This being after you have realised the purpose of your existance is to be in "Heaven" and not in the "Not Heaven" (or Hell - everything that isn't Heaven in this next life). You now have to spend the rest of eternity, in this realm or second-life as conciousness that is in Hell (or the Not-Heaven) knowing full well that the only purpose you really have, is to be there. You also know there is no Hope of ever going to this place Heaven, and you wil never get there. The frustration and regret of this result (Which isn't God being a dick, but merely Cause and Effect of your choices) will be PURE HELL. I believe God is a God of Love, and any one that is "sent" to hell is basicly a cause/effect of the world he created. This is almost yin-yang. Heaven's pureness makes everything that is not Heaven, become hell as a result of contrast.

Now this idea of Hell makes sense to me, because I believe in that way, God may have more then 1 path to this same realm or second-life. Christianity may not be the only way. I do believe it is MY way, based on MY observations. Some others may be destined as far as life on earth goes.. to go via another path. The only thing I do not agree with as far as beliefs go, is Atheism. I think there is plenty of Evidence for a devine foot in our existance. Nothing did not become Something. There is more to this world then just the 3D we are aware of at the current moment. Sorry to offend any Atheists by this. I am just stating my oppinion.

[MarioBro]

Very interesting thread.

I am a Christian but I do not consider myself a religios person. Now most Christians, and most people think this is a contradiction.

Funniest thing about Christianity, is that people dont read in between the lines and realise that the Core to Christianity - Jesus Christ - was against Religion as a whole.

Jesus himself said that religion restricts people (I think that's the main purpose of the initial question to this thread, "do you think that you would be against your own religion if you found out it was only good for its restrictions")

Personally I could probably be considered Agnostic in some ways, at the same time. I have come to the point where I myself believe, that the only thing I can know and believe for sure, is that I don't know anything other then the things I have personally observed first-hand.

This is where faith comes in for me. Faith and Religion to me, are very different.

If I was to die, and I found my Faith is flawed, I would be dissapointed, but its hard to answer this because I haven't really experienced it, just imagined it.

I have faith, as far as Christian values go, that they benefit me, even if I don't always know how, so in that aspect I wouldnt regret it at all. A good example, is how it is written that God told the people, through his representatives that they shouldn't eat meat and drink milk at the same time. He gave no explanation. Now in modern day science, we know that drinking milk and eating meat at the same time isnt very healthy for you. God didn't tell them to do it because he wanted to put barriers and authority over the people, but only because its a simple law of the world that he created. Milk n Meat dont mix!

Anyways, just one more thing.. How do people in here actually define "Hell"? I am not convinced the bible is purely written as we as people today perceive it, and as a result I don't believe "HELL" is this place where we are sent to suffer for eternity because God is sadistic. My explanation of Hell has made many people think differently on these things, so I will share. Give me your thoughts on this.

Here goes..

Imagine you were to die right now, and you were Atheist. You arrive at "Heaven" which is by my definition, not a city of gold, or whatever, but purely a place that is "in the presence of the ultimate reality that is God". Until this moment you could not grasp the significance of being in the presence of your creator. As soon as you step into this realm that is the presence of God, you realise that this presence completes you in every single way. It makes you understand your meaning and place in the universe. And more.

Now it gets bad. God tells you that, by putting you on earth, he has made you sit a test of "free will" where you personally decide what you wish to do with ur destiny. God wants you to choose him, but if you don't choose him, then he will not force you to be in his presence at moment of "moving over the next life". Since you were Atheist, you obviously chose an after-existance of "NOT in God's presence". God will not kick your ass or burn you for eternity. He doesn't hate you, nor is he a sadistic ass. He simply tells you to leave. He will not have you be in a place that you didn't choose to be at.

Hell then is defined to you, as nothing else, but the "Not Heaven". This being after you have realised the purpose of your existance is to be in "Heaven" and not in the "Not Heaven" (or Hell - everything that isn't Heaven in this next life). You now have to spend the rest of eternity, in this realm or second-life as conciousness that is in Hell (or the Not-Heaven) knowing full well that the only purpose you really have, is to be there. You also know there is no Hope of ever going to this place Heaven, and you wil never get there. The frustration and regret of this result (Which isn't God being a dick, but merely Cause and Effect of your choices) will be PURE HELL. I believe God is a God of Love, and any one that is "sent" to hell is basicly a cause/effect of the world he created. This is almost yin-yang. Heaven's pureness makes everything that is not Heaven, become hell as a result of contrast.

Now this idea of Hell makes sense to me, because I believe in that way, God may have more then 1 path to this same realm or second-life. Christianity may not be the only way. I do believe it is MY way, based on MY observations. Some others may be destined as far as life on earth goes.. to go via another path. The only thing I do not agree with as far as beliefs go, is Atheism. I think there is plenty of Evidence for a devine foot in our existance. Nothing did not become Something. There is more to this world then just the 3D we are aware of at the current moment. Sorry to offend any Atheists by this. I am just stating my oppinion.
Well, that is all very interesting and nicely written.

My problem with the whole theory of God is this; I was supposedly created in the image of God, which means it was predetermined that in order for me to believe in God, I would need scientific or undeniable proof of his existence. Because he created me with this flaw, it then becomes his job to correct the flaw and simply give me proof. Is that asking too much? Is that unreasonable or not make sense?

Why in the world would I not want to believe? It would mean that my entire life did have a purpose, that there was something more..how great would that be!? So I wait for this proof to correct the problem of having been created with the flaw of needing proof and not just following blindly.

I suppose this 'flaw' has also saved me alot of money as I do not buy into any product advertisements without proof as well...

[BendzR]

Well, that is all very interesting and nicely written.

My problem with the whole theory of God is this; I was supposedly created in the image of God, which means it was predetermined that in order for me to believe in God, I would need scientific or undeniable proof of his existence. Because he created me with this flaw, it then becomes his job to correct the flaw and simply give me proof. Is that asking too much? Is that unreasonable or not make sense?

Why in the world would I not want to believe? It would mean that my entire life did have a purpose, that there was something more..how great would that be!? So I wait for this proof to correct the problem of having been created with the flaw of needing proof and not just following blindly.

I suppose this 'flaw' has also saved me alot of money as I do not buy into any product advertisements without proof as well...

Okay, where to start..

"it was predetermined that in order for me to believe in God, I would need scientific or undeniable proof of his existence" I agree. The way your mind works, is that you require evidence to observe for you to draw conclusions, in this case "there is a God / there isn't a God". If there is no God, there is no reason to continue looking further into it.

"Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless" - Bertrand Russell, Atheist.

We are ment to be in God's image, but we are also fallen creatures. Most people get offended by this idea, because they have Human Ego. Probably the wisest of things you can do, is get rid of your Ego. It will not cloud your judgement. As this is a MA website, it is nice to know (and hope) that most users on here are more intact with themselves and are developped enough mentally to not require dubious things like egos when it comes to making important decisions.

I do believe that you will want to honestly believe. I do also believe that you are fallen and as a result you will always, regardless of what point in your life you reach, have doubt about your own beliefs. This is normal I feel. If you think you will honestly reach a point where you have no doubt about the reality of the world, then you are probably an idiot :D You will always have doubt, this is in your nature as a fallen creature. I also believe we are genetically created not to just believe anything very easily, so in the case that we do "choose" or "account" to a God, we are doing it geniunely, and not just because we are gullable.

As far as evidences go, there are so many. The question isn't about what evidence you see, but how much you want to see. I have heard a scholar say that he will not believe in Noah's Ark even if they found the Ark. He had already made up his mind before the evidence was present. It all depends on what your bias is, and what you want to see within the Evidence, and how you want to interpretate it. I personally see the vast Genetic Code that we have, as something that was designed. Any two human beings, can have more children then there are atoms in the universe, and they will not have a single child that has the same DNA as another. This is how big the ammounts of information is within our DNA. I do not believe that we are not designed. This is a pretty basic example of what I personally perceive as "evidence" but it really does come down to you. Start looking for evidence, and I am certain that you will find it. But this really is not the point. Evidence is just a perception. Someone might take specific evidence as a way to prove there is no God, and another may use the exact same evidence to prove there is a God. It really comes down to a question of Faith. You can be presented with infinite ammounts of evidence for the existance of God, but until you personally observe the existance of God first hand, you will still have doubts. That is your nature. It is up to you to decide if you want to accept that nature of yourself.

Once you accept you are fallen, fallible, and it is in ur nature to doubt God. It starts to seem more realistic that there is a God, because the way you open your eyes.

I will leave at this for now, I can continue to write about these things for many, many, many pages, and I am probably babbling by now.

I just hope you see that life is a constant journey of finding the realities of what you believe, and accepting those things. I can continue to talk about these things, but I can't just answer every question you have on my own. Some things are best learned by yourself. I just really encourage you to look for these things.

If there was anything specific you wanted to question me about, like what I believe in, or a question you feel I didn't adress properly, and you would like me to. Feel free to ask! :D

One more thing.. "So I wait for this proof to correct the problem of having been created with the flaw of needing proof and not just following blindly" Have you ever simply just looked at the sky and said "hey God, if you can hear me.. I am waiting.. so help?" because that is basicly what I did, a few years ago, and I am not sure how I ended up where I am now in my own personal journey, but I do believe that was the start of something for me personally. ;)

Hope that helped a little bit. :)

[megk]

Well, that is all very interesting and nicely written.

My problem with the whole theory of God is this; I was supposedly created in the image of God, which means it was predetermined that in order for me to believe in God, I would need scientific or undeniable proof of his existence. Because he created me with this flaw, it then becomes his job to correct the flaw and simply give me proof. Is that asking too much? Is that unreasonable or not make sense?

Why in the world would I not want to believe? It would mean that my entire life did have a purpose, that there was something more..how great would that be!? So I wait for this proof to correct the problem of having been created with the flaw of needing proof and not just following blindly.

I suppose this 'flaw' has also saved me alot of money as I do not buy into any product advertisements without proof as well...

Perhaps you have seen the proof but have not recognized it as that.

Here is a great book "The Case for The Creator" By Lee Strobel. It lines out all kinds of scientific evidence and inconsistancies in science that point to there being a creator.

Remember that having Faith in the unseen is the ultimate expression of trust and love. God did not create you with a flaw, he created you with the desire to see the unseen thats all. Everyone that has found God had to face the same hurdle. Many millions of people have been able overcome that hurdle.

[BendzR]

As much as those kind of books are interesting to read, the answers to lifes questions are only solid to yourself when you find them yourself. I don't think that all people will simply 'believe' in a creator after reading it, or the whole world would be agreeing thanks to that book. It might be a start to another chapter of interest in ur life and may generate more interest in another topic, which I think is great.

But I was trying to point out earlier, no amount if doubt that is within your core as a person, can just be easily eliminated, it takes years of self development.

But you have to start somewhere. ;)

[megk]

This is only the second page of this thread and I am already going to take it off topic for a second.

"But I was trying to point out earlier, no amount if doubt that is within your core as a person, can just be easily eliminated, it takes years of self development."

I totally disagree with this statement. self development can only bring more doubt. The more you learn the more you realize you don't know anything. Answers about God or the supernatural can only be found through Faith. Faith does not need years of self development to take shape. Faith is a one time decision. It really is that simple. Doubt will always be a part of our lives, but faith is truely the only thing that can overcome doubt.

Once faith is chosen, "proof" seems to be much more readily available. God will only reveal himself to those that are desiring to see him. Those that desire to see him are more likely willing to have a bit of faith. "Faith as small as a mustard seed" is all it takes. That is pretty small.

[Lanakin]

If anything, most people are religious because of the morals and values that that "God" would impose, and it wouldn't be wasted because it made you a better person.

[BendzR]

This is only the second page of this thread and I am already going to take it off topic for a second.

"But I was trying to point out earlier, no amount if doubt that is within your core as a person, can just be easily eliminated, it takes years of self development."

I totally disagree with this statement. self development can only bring more doubt. The more you learn the more you realize you don't know anything.

That was exactly my point. I think you misunderstood me. Sorry if I made it a bit unclear.

If you develop your understanding of the world, the more you develop that, the more you become aware of the reality that you will know nothing, and the only thing you will ever know; is that you dont know anything. This development allows you to truely surrender to faith. Faith comes through the knowledge of your own lack of being able to obtain knowledge.

Until you realise that very true reality that you will never understand everything, which is as good as understanding nothing, you will never surrender to true faith.


;)

[gerard]

Very good question.

I am personally what is known as "Dark Neopagan" thus I usually communicate to the Gods and Goddesses of the Underworld and Night, ie Hecate, Morrigan, Anubis.

Anyways, if I am completely wrong, and say, Christianity was right and God condemned me to Hell for eternity, I would go with my head up high saying I have lived my life to the fullest.

If he wishes to punish me for my own sins, then by all means do so, but I find fault in his logic. Sure, you may have given me a chance to believe. But with what? When all that did was impose rules in my life, not allowing me to follow MY personal path. If you were all powerful, why not just show yourself??? Why do you have to hide in the shadows??? Surely you don't NEED to hide???

Of course he doesn't, if he is real, if he is all powerful. I would also ask him why he created me KNOWING I will be condemned, why he created millions of innocents KNOWING that most of them would be condemned just like me.

Yes, I would ask him that, and I would face Hell not with fear and despair, but with Honor and Pride.


Personally, I believe you are either confused or influenced by an entity of a different dimension. Those entities are negative and they will suck your energy for their own benefit. Following the path you are currently in won't report you positive benefits in the long term. The dark side is appealing but the results are disastrous.

Be careful my friend.

************************

Religion is a social invention. Spirituality is an individual quest. I am spiritual, and my ego has nothing to do with it as I try to avoid it at all times. In fact when you see me in the street I will look like everyone else and hide if I can to avoid being identified as someone interesting or different. If this moment ever happens then my ego has won the battle. I make sure it won't.

Wisdom and true knowledge is what I am seeking at a daily basis. There is no way back, I must live according to the demands of this spiritual path. Part of that path is living accordingly to the following statements which were designed by Toltec shamans (Indigenous Mexicans of the 10th century AD):

1. Be impeccable with your word.

Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.


2. Don’t take anything personally.

Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.


3. Don’t Make Assumptions.

Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

4. Always Do Your Best.

Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.


I firmly believe that living by these words is true effort and requires discipline and commitment. Being a warrior of virtue is a lifestyle, and other things also follow.



:)