JKD is Kung Fu & Kung Fu is JKD!

[Andy Murray]

*Members Note*.
This is posted in the JKD forum, and not in General Discussion!

I always wanted to learn Chinese, but years on all I can manage is 1-10, thank you, and my favourite order at my local take away.

Having largely spent my time messing with Kung Fu over the years, I was at one point taken with the meaning of 'Kung Fu', which I believe means 'work done' or 'work in progress'.

One of the members on this forum, TKD Warrior has the following as his signature;

"My *kungFu* is Taekwon-Do"

This set me to thinking, and I hope I'm right, that he means that his time and effort is spent in his personal development of TKD.


With 1,500 to 2,00 styles of Kung Fu around, it's moronic to generalise about what Kung Fu is and isn't, as it's impossible to do an exhaustive study of all the aspects they cover.
One day we may discover the 'Ultimate' art within the CMA in a manner akin to finding a 'lost tribe' of the Amazon who have a cure for Cancer. Who knows?
In present times, we see static/stagnant systems being promoted, but I feel this was not always the case. There was clearly cross-pollenisation between different Shaolin systems for example, and rooftop scraps between schools soon sorted out the wheat from the chaff. Kung Fu in it's truest form has to evolve, or it's not Kung Fu any more, but another mans theatre.

In comparison with the modern JKD concepts groups, I see them as seeking to evolve also. As one thing is proven to be more suitable than the last, it is adopted. I would imagine that at some point, a JKD exponent may discontinue some portion of the practice they have followed either through personal preference, or by instruction, yet always with the objective of being as complete as possible. So JKD is Kung Fu, it is work done and work in progress.

Where many practitioners of CMA see one system as being enough, I have no disrespect for that, as excellence in anything requires devotion. My own Kung Fu encompasses everything I do. If I take up Karate, Boxing, Wrestling or swimming, it will still be part of my 'Kung Fu'.

Is this so very dissimilar to JKD?

[Cain]

Little to do with the topic.........but just thought this was interesting

"My *kungFu* is Taekwon-Do"

I will try a wild guess here and try to understand wat it means -

It's like everyone says wat's ur style of Kung Fu? or wat's ur Kung Fu. Most ppl never heard of TKD, the only thing they r aware is of Kung Fu in the movies so that's Tkdwarrior's answer -

"My *kungFu* is Taekwon-Do"

I may be wrong here.........

|Cain|

[YODA]

Good post Andy :D

[pgm316]

Great article Andy, I didn’t know the translation of Kung Fu, interesting.

Its like an article somebody wrote a while back; Somebody develops a good evolving art, constantly modifying and improving as new more effective ways are found. Then other people find out how good it is. Adopt it themselves, and spend centuries trying to keep it original and unaltered. And in trying to keep the essence of the original style, they have lost it completely.

[Greyghost]

i get it.


nuff said.

[morphus]

Good point of view - good article!

[Andy Murray]

Shucks!

Thanks fellas!

[Light Ng]

I asked my mother a few years ago what was the translation of kung fu. She speaks several dialects of chinese.

She said it means 'hard work' but words have to be taken in the context. Very often I will ask her the meaning of words and she will say it doesnt mean anything. Stick it in context and thats a different matter.

Kung fu can mean "work done" or "work being done" but it really needs more of a context. In chinese there are NO tenses! The translation from english to chinese of the following phrases can be exactly the same....

I went to the shops
I am going to the shops
I will go to the shops

In chinese, if you want to specify a time you would say...

I go to the shops yesterday or
I go to the shops now or
I go to the shops tomorrow.

[Andy Murray]

Next time I see you Ng, I hope you'll let me know some more Chinese!

[Light Ng]

To be honest, you probably know more chinese than me, Andy. I was immersed in the chinese language till the age of three then no more.

Not many people can say theyve forgotten their first language LOL!

[pesilat]

For the topic ... I agree comletely with your assessment, Andy.

Originally posted by cain_charlie

It's like everyone says wat's ur style of Kung Fu? or wat's ur Kung Fu. Most ppl never heard of TKD, the only thing they r aware is of Kung Fu in the movies so that's Tkdwarrior's answer -


Must be where you live, cain. I've *never* heard the phrase, "what's your Kung Fu" ... or anything remotely like it. And, here in America, very few people have never heard of TKD ... there's a school on practically every corner in every town and city (even the smallest of towns often have 1 or 2 TKD schools).

Mike

[TkdWarrior]

this thread was on 01-17-2003
and today is 16 march 2003... man how could i hav missed this thread ?? :confused:

first of all as usual great post andy(man don't ur ear got tired by hearing all this ??)


My *kungFu* is Taekwon-Do"

This set me to thinking, and I hope I'm right, that he means that his time and effort is spent in his personal development of TKD.
u almost hit the nail on the head... as such i m not purist TKD-Man(for purist i need to learn all the forms/sparring etc etc in TKD which i don't think i'll be able to learn), but i hav emotional attachment to TKD even tho i started with Muai Thai in MA''s. why? because TKD gave me a chance to grow as a Martial artist, TKD gave me a chance to express myself,
TKD gave me chance to be myself... in all TKD gave me a way of life.

as excellence in anything requires devotion. My own Kung Fu encompasses everything I do. If I take up Karate, Boxing, Wrestling or swimming, it will still be part of my 'Kung Fu'.
this is the way i think...
that's why My *Kungfu* is TaeKwon-Do
-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

Cain is totally wrong on his assumption n wonder where the hell he get the idea about TKD, ppl knows very well here about Kungfu, karate, TKD and judo not much...

KungFu: it is work done and work in progress

My signature has nothing to do with KungFu/Wushu, if somebody thinks that i m trying to stand apart in KF Men then he's wrong, i m very happy with wat i m...
the signature happened in another forum when someone asked "wat's ur kungfu" and i said "TKD" then the person said "No No i mean wat Kungfu u do" again i said TKD, i was much in kidding mood but realise i was very rite n it just stucks with me...
as far as my signature goes n if they intrigue u so much andy then here's one of my other sig's
"knowledge, like sex, is better when it's free"

don't ask me how it started ;)
-TkdWarrior-

[pgm316]

Good points TKD, you stick with your Kung Fu! ;)

[ff_mattjones]

I have the answer for the Ultimate art!!!!!!

Don't think I am pig headed or anything ....

the ultimate style is the style that works for YOU!!
that was Bruce Lee's emphasis on the marital arts... Use what ever works for you from biting to killing!!

That's why I chose to practice the methods of JKD, not saying it's the ultimate style but it is what works for ME!!!

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by ff_mattjones


that was Bruce Lee's emphasis on the marital arts... Use what ever works for you from biting to killing!!



Linda Lee was real hard to please though! :D

[Aqira]

being a friend of TKDwarrior..... I would say that TKD is a center for him like a tree TKD is the trunk that supports, but his roots are deep into his history and his heritage, his martial arts are like many branches as he is one that is always reaching out and growing and does not limit himself to the boundries of a style.

In fact this is one of the reasons we are friends.

Those who have been in the arts for a while may agree a style is a home you venture out from through the journeys the arts offer. If built right through respect it is also a place you can come home to.

But it still drives me crazy that he types ur instead or your:woo:

[TkdWarrior]

<But it still drives me crazy that he types ur instead or your>

LMAO...
u know wat i was giving my english paper last year, and i ended up finsihing an hour before the time scheduled and it took me about half an hour to correct my spellings from
n to and
u to you
tho to though
etc etc...
i was so damn irritated by myself n overwriting almost the whole paper, thank god i got about 65%(i wasn't expected that much after so much of overwriting n mistakes) :D
but still i havn't changed :D
-TkdWarrior-

[ff_mattjones]

Yeah, the martial arts is life, If you are not willing to give your life to martial arts and grow don't start!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. How do you get those pictures by your name, like the spawn picture????

[YODA]

Yeah, the martial arts is life, If you are not willing to give your life to martial arts and grow don't start!!!!!!!!!!

You need to get out more bro. There is WAY more to life than martial arts.

But then again - when I was 16 thought as you do. Get yourself a wife, mortgage and a couple of kids- THEN we'll talk dedication to the art :D

[Andy Murray]

I did kind of envisage a spiritual thread, where people related their own journey, but excuse my naivette!

[TkdWarrior]

<But then again - when I was 16 thought as you do. Get yourself a wife, mortgage and a couple of kids- THEN we'll talk dedication to the art >

Yoda don't u think 16 is too early for u to get married n children??
-TkdWarrior-

[pesilat]

Originally posted by YODA


You need to get out more bro. There is WAY more to life than martial arts.

But then again - when I was 16 thought as you do. Get yourself a wife, mortgage and a couple of kids- THEN we'll talk dedication to the art :D

I personally think it boils down to priorities. My training is my number one priority. The only thing that comes before it is family emergencies (this includes close friends). But my training has always come before relationships with women, too. My wife is very understanding and supportive of my obs ... er ... I mean ... passion ;) If she weren't, our relationship wouldn't have lasted. We wouldn't have fallen in love. We wouldn't be married now.

My training has always come before my job (when I had a regular job) ... much to the frustration of my boss.

BUT while this was my path and I think it was/is the right path for me. I wouldn't expect if of anyone else. Everyone is different. Everyone's priorities are different.

If someone isn't willing to devote their life to martial arts, fine. Doesn't mean they shouldn't train. As long as they give the training all that they can according to the priority it has, then I'll respect them and their dedication.

Mike

[YODA]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior


Yoda don't u think 16 is too early for u to get married n children??
-TkdWarrior-


Yes -I do.

[ff_mattjones]

Yeah very true but then again I am only 15 I guess you could say I haven't really experienced life yet have I? hahaha... but yeah you are right it's all about the dedication...."everyone's priorities are different... I too am involved in a strong relationship actually today is our six month anniversary if you call months anniversaries, anyway one day she asked me to quit and I told her no, she knows exactly were my passion lies with martial arts and she is ok with it...

[TkdWarrior]

u know wat if i had been trying to be cricketer or tennis player, girls could understand here but a Martial artists?? most of them r in shock... they think's it's just new age fad... but when they found out it's not fad it's obessession they move on :D ... i never had probs with this... i know one day i'll met my match ;)
-TkdWarrior-

[ff_mattjones]

Yeah, I'm glad my girl understands it would be hard with out her, instead of moving on she supports my training...

Tkdwarrior-maybe you will find your match in the martial arts...haha maybe she will beat you hahaha

[TkdWarrior]

<haha maybe she will beat you hahaha>
man that would be soooooo damn fun :D ;)
man i know in any case i'll gonna be winning her :)
-TkdWarrior-

[pesilat]

Originally posted by ff_mattjones
Yeah very true but then again I am only 15 I guess you could say I haven't really experienced life yet have I? hahaha... but yeah you are right it's all about the dedication...."everyone's priorities are different... I too am involved in a strong relationship actually today is our six month anniversary if you call months anniversaries, anyway one day she asked me to quit and I told her no, she knows exactly were my passion lies with martial arts and she is ok with it...

I hate to say it (and don't let my comment affect your relationship at all) but if she asked you to quit once, she'll probably ask you to quit again. And the more serious your relationship becomes with her, the more adamant she's likely to get.

Now, I'm not saying that this is the truth in your case. I don't know. But it's something to be aware of.

No offense intended, most of you are probably aware of this already, anyway, but many women have a bad habit of thinking they can change their man. Thinking that they can mold him into the man they want. This is one of the reasons that some relationships fail.

And men can be as guilty of it as women. But, at least in my experience, women tend to be more prone to this.

I hope she sincerely doesn't have a problem with you continuing to train. But there's a chance that your refusal to quit is like a burr under her saddle that will eventually cause here to blow up about it.

Like I said, I don't know. Everyone is different and each relationship is unique. I'm just pointing out something that I've seen happen several times. If you're aware of the possibility then it may cushion the blow if it happens.

But, as I said initially, don't let this affect your relationship. Don't let this comment cause you to be overly sensitive to comments she might make. It's entirely possible that she doesn't have a problem with you training. I hope that's the case.

To TkdWarrior: I"m sure there's a woman out there for you. And when you're ready and she's ready, you'll meet. Don't try to rush things. Just stay aware so you don't miss the knock of opportunity.

I was 17 before I ever had a date with a girl. I was 23 when I met my wife. And while there was instant attraction, it wasn't "love at first sight." We were both just cruising along, enjoying each other's company. The love grew gradually out of the friendship we formed.

A friend of mine was 29 before he met his perfect match. There's plenty of time :D

Mike

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
*Members Note*.
This is posted in the JKD forum, and not in General Discussion!

[pesilat]

You mean relationship discussion isn't JKD? ;)

You're right, of course. But while the discussion has wandered from its original topic, it's still martial arts related. Though I admit that my post was just hanging onto the topic by the merest of threads.

Mike

[pgm316]

Originally posted by pesilat

I was 17 before I ever had a date with a girl. I was 23 when I met my wife. And while there was instant attraction, it wasn't "love at first sight." We were both just cruising along, enjoying each other's company. The love grew gradually out of the friendship we formed.

A friend of mine was 29 before he met his perfect match. There's plenty of time :D

Mike

With any luck my wife hasn't been born yet! ;)

Don't think that philosophy would impress my girly though :D

[YODA]

I was 17 before I ever had a date with a girl. I was 23 when I met my wife. And while there was instant attraction, it wasn't "love at first sight." We were both just cruising along, enjoying each other's company.

Mine was a similar experience but we were 11 & 10 years old :D

We cruised along enjoying each other's company for about 6 years then took it to the next stage - we're still going strong after 29 years together :D But yes - we had some evil battles regarding my training until she finally realised she was flogging a dead horse!

p.s. Just to keep it on topic for Andy.

JKD JKD JKD JKD JKD JKD :D

[ff_mattjones]

Yeah, She has asked me to quit, and maybe she will ask me to quit again... but if she does, sorry... I love her to death but I can't quit, it's like an addiction, martial arts ... We have gotten through the roughest fights togather and still going on strong I'm pretty sure she really does love me even though we are so young, hell Yoda said he met his match at 11 right... who knows maybe she's the one. well the point is we are both happy now.. and I seem to be managing my martial arts career and my love life pretty well...

so has anyone had any interesting fights or matches lately???

-Matt

[Greg-VT]

It is true that Kung Fu was introduced the Western world by Bruce Lee.

He used the term (pronounced 'Gung Fu' in Cantonese) as style of Martial Arts, as we all know today.

Although I believe he did not intentionally 'brand' the Kung Fu term as a fighting style. I suspect he felt it was just an easier way to give westerners a clearer view on Chinese martial arts.

More specifically onto the topic, Kung Fu (Gung Fu) does in-fact mean to 'work hard/done'... most other translations relate closely to this meaning. As to 'train hard' 'study hard' ...etc.

So it does not mean to 'work hard' in just martial arts, but at all other areas as well. Like fishing, calligraphy (sp), drawing, landscaping ...etc. One can have 'Kung Fu' in any one of these areas.

JKD is not Kung Fu, but rather 'One can have Kung Fu in JKD'.

The 'Kung Fu' Bruce was referring to was Wing Chun.

The only thing that I regret Bruce saying was his use of the term Kung Fu.

Anyone with more knowledge on this topic please correct me anywhere.
We don't need anymore misconceptions. Wouldn’t you agree?



Tah

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Ving Tsun


1/ It is true that Kung Fu was introduced the Western world by Bruce Lee.


2/ JKD is not Kung Fu, but rather 'One can have Kung Fu in JKD'.

3/ The 'Kung Fu' Bruce was referring to was Wing Chun.

4/ The only thing that I regret Bruce saying was his use of the term Kung Fu.





1/ Fraid not. It was already there, no matter how minor!

2/ You interpret my meaning, but we have the same understanding.

3/ I doubt that.

4/ Why?

[Greg-VT]

'Greets

1/ Not true? I always thought that Bruce was the first the use that term in the meaning he was referring too.

2/ More or less ;)

3/ At the time of him going to the US, Wing Chun is all the formal training he had and, the only formal training he had at the time of him first using the term 'Gung Fu'. I'm sure he could not have been talking about something he had no part/experience in.

4/ It bent the real meaning of Kung/Gung fu. Ask anyone who does not have any experience/knowledge in Martial Arts what Kung Fu is, and they will most likely say, or along the lines of "The Best Fighting style" or "The most effectiveway of fighting". They may even refer to on a higher level then THAT, by saying it's ancient and mystical, and unbeatable.

Get a group of people of the street and ask each of them seperatly, to define 'Kung Fu' in detail. See what you get. I bet the results will show, nearly, a different answer from each person.

I may be just assuming here though.

To some it all up, I guess I regret it because Bruce wrongly used the term. And because of it, it is now thought by many to be a style all on it's own. You just need to look at the contents of the "Styles" section of this forum. What do you see listed? Kung Fu. Yet, you don't have a "Wing Chun" Style. Just an observation. ;)

tah

[Andy Murray]

1/ No, though he is accredited with the term due to his popularity.

2/ You can!

3/ Yet in later interview he expressed and demonstrated knowledge of other systems?

4/ I've never come across this view of Kung Fu

"You just need to look at the contents of the "Styles" section of this forum. What do you see listed? Kung Fu. Yet, you don't have a "Wing Chun" Style. Just an observation."

When the membership of the forum justifies a dedicated Wing Chun section, I can assure you I'll be there! Invite some friends and let's talk!

[Greg-VT]

1/ Ok, good enough ;)

3/ In a much later interview, well, I might agree you.

4/ Haven’t you? Well, as I said, I might been just making assumptions. I can't say that I come across it allot, but I have had experiences with people who have these types of views.

"When the membership of the forum justifies a dedicated Wing Chun section..."

Hehe, fair enough :).
But the point I was trying to make was that, even here, Kung Fu is seen as a style all on it's own. No disrespect to anyone here, but, I just don't support this view. Can't really say why, except for the points I just made... but, now that I think about, they did'nt really explain it...

Oh well.

tah ;)

[kazgeroth]

I recently read The Tao of Gung Fu by Bruce Lee (and yes that is kung fu) it sounds interesting. :-) dunno why i'm posting just boredom i guess...Uh I prefer to call it Gung Fu that was its original name I think Kung Fu was its like cantonese interpritation or something. I can't remember all to well it said it in the book.

[Greg-VT]

Gung Fu is Cantonese ;).

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Ving Tsun
even here, Kung Fu is seen as a style all on it's own. No disrespect to anyone here, but, I just don't support this view. Can't really say why, except for the points I just made... but, now that I think about, they did'nt really explain it...

Oh well.

tah ;)

I don't feel Kung Fu is viewed as a style ' "all on it's own" here!

In fact it almost has minority status!

[Greg-VT]

Originally posted by Andy Murray

I don't feel Kung Fu is viewed as a style ' "all on it's own" here!




So, maybe You don't feel Kung Fu is viewed as a style here. But it is still listed under "Styles" Isn’t it?

As I said earlier, I mean no dis-respect to MAP, but you can't say that Kung Fu is not seen as a style here, when it has actually been listed as style. You see? If MAP does not have the view that Kung Fu is a style (assumption), then why is it listed like this? I would say it is because, through the eyes of the community, Kung Fu is seen as a style.

[Cain]

So, maybe You don't feel Kung Fu is viewed as a style here. But it is still listed under "Styles" Isn’t it?

So is Jeet Kune do ;)

|Cain|

[Greg-VT]

lol, good point. :)

[Shadowlessform]

kung fu is a term or name used for a certain chinese martial art style. JKD is not a style. Therefore, you can't call JKD kung fu. No matter how much you want to believe JKD is kung fu in reality it still won't be kungfu. Bruce lee when he created JKD, does not consider JKD, kung fu because JKD is not a style. ALso you can't call taekwondo kung fu because it's really a form karate. You might piss of taekwondo people if you call it kung fu because its something korean and its really bad to mistake it for kung fu.

[TheDarkJester]

kung fu is a term or name used for a certain chinese martial art style. JKD is not a style. Therefore, you can't call JKD kung fu. No matter how much you want to believe JKD is kung fu in reality it still won't be kungfu. Bruce lee when he created JKD, does not consider JKD, kung fu because JKD is not a style. ALso you can't call taekwondo kung fu because it's really a form karate. You might piss of taekwondo people if you call it kung fu because its something korean and its really bad to mistake it for kung fu.



no no no sir... Kung Fu is time and effort.. a master carpenters Kung Fu is wood...

A chefs kung fu is in the realm of food.. Sifu is a term the chinese use to describe someone with a great realm of knowledge in a topic gained over years of experience and practice.

And I agree.. JKD is a freestyle concept, not a kung fu style.
My opinion is this.. (disagree with it, call me a tool I don't personally care) .. JKD is not effective if the user does not have traditional roots... and by that I mean formal traditional training methods. Once those are fully grasped and mastered, one can begin to appreciate the concept which is JKD.. Which is impressive unto itself.. :)


And heaven forbid I upset a TKD fighter.. I'd hate to have to duck all those high kicks... :Angel:

[tel]

no no no sir... Kung Fu is time and effort.. a master carpenters Kung Fu is wood...

A chefs kung fu is in the realm of food.. Sifu is a term the chinese use to describe someone with a great realm of knowledge in a topic gained over years of experience and practice.

And I agree.. JKD is a freestyle concept, not a kung fu style.
My opinion is this.. (disagree with it, call me a tool I don't personally care) .. JKD is not effective if the user does not have traditional roots... and by that I mean formal traditional training methods. Once those are fully grasped and mastered, one can begin to appreciate the concept which is JKD.. Which is impressive unto itself.. :)


And heaven forbid I upset a TKD fighter.. I'd hate to have to duck all those high kicks... :Angel:
i agree with you. you should do traditional arts and training methods, but can still be effective with out it, down to the person. i train in traditional arts and apply the concepts to work out whats best for me

[Shadowlessform]

What? This is crazy, i'm confused now. So Kung Fu can be named after anything besides chinese martial arts? I can't possibly imagine Judo Being called kung fu or
boxing being called kung fu or Jujitsu Kung fu

[Yohan]

Kung fu has come to designate chinese martial arts in most cases.