Is Aikido to complicated to use in a REAL fight???

[GhostRider]

I read the following article in an email I get from this man's site. I don't agree or disagree with it as I have no real good knowledge of using Aikido in a fight but I've heard similiar sentiments from many corners of the martial arts community.

I personally think that the assessment below might be biased since no-one does well in defending themselves untill they've gotten over the "mental-training" aspect of self-defence within their choosen martial art. Untill you have some experiance dealing with the "shock" value of an attack you really aren't going to be that effective with your choosen martial art.

So my question, after you read this is two-fold.

a.) do you think Aikido is too complicated to really learn to use effectively in a high adrenaline street fight / self-defence situation.

b.) If complexity is an issue in your choosen art form what do you do to prepare for and minimize the "shock" value of an attack?

When I was studying Bujinkan Ninjutsu I was told to do the following in my free time... visualize an attack, visualize every facet of the attack and how you might react with the skills you have. I was to start with simple attacks and work my way on up to more complex attacks. In no way was this to replace any self-defence training, but it was thought that the more I could ''concieve" of a attack the more prepared I'd be mentally and emotionally for the "real-deal"

What do you think??? :confused:


Aikido and Self Defense

The principle of aikido is to blend in with the force or attack,
join it and continue using the other persons power along with
your own power against them. Aikido uses a system of
leverage, finger, wrist and arm locks to subdue their potential
attacker.

Students spend a great deal of time learning to fall and roll,
usually on padded mats. This is necessary as the practice of
aikido requires practitioners to be able to withstand various types
of throws, sweeps and takedowns.

Typically, after a couple of years of training, students of aikido
are able to defend themselves from various type of open handed and
weapon attacks.

Watching a skilled Aikido student can be beautiful. It seems so
effortless in their maneuvers that they are able to send their
would be attacker flying in different directions.

While this is all true in the Aikido dojo, the questions remains,
will they be able to really execute this on the street?

To answer this we must look at the typical effects of adrenal
stress on most people, trained or un-trained. One of the most
devastating effects of the 'adrenaline dump' is the loss of fine
motor coordination. The other is a limited access to our cognitive
thinking. Both of these factors weigh heavily against the aikido
practitioner.

While under a heavy surge of fear induced adrenaline, it is hard
to think very clearly or certainly, very quickly. In an art like
Aikido that requires a multitude of highly technical techniques,
it is doubtful whether most would have mental access to this arrary
of precision hand meneuvers.

Additionally the manual dexterity required for most of the wrist
manipulations would unlikely be useful because of the loss of fine
motor coordination during the adrenaline stress of a real attack.

Our experience with our F.A.S.T. Defense (Fear Adrenal Stress
Response Training) training confirms this. We have seen experienced
Aikido practitioners fail to apply these techniques while adrenalized.

Written by
Shihan Michael Pace

Shihan Pace is the author of Street Self Defense 101. Read about
Street Self
Defense 101 at this link:
http://www.1shoppingcart.com/app/adtrack.asp?AdID=76304

[aikinoob]

give me a break. this is coming from a guy who claims he can teach you to defend yourself from any attack with 4 hours of videotape.

please be a little more skeptical when reading this garbage.

RE: aikido.

of course aikido is difficult to learn and master, if it was easy everyone would do it. wristlocks, fine motor movements, are a direct result of entering and/ or neutralization techniques of aikido, which involve moving the whole body. so, while it is true that the adrenal dump may (or may not) cause diminishing effectiveness in applying wristlocks the overall movements of the aikidoka should not be effected. wristlocks, when properly applied, require a certain amount of positional control to be effective regardless of the adrenaline dump.

preparing for shock value is addressed primarily through randori in a traditional aikido setting. however, it is always good to supplement your training with some hard sparring to help in this regard. also, who has never been in at least one fight?

as a side note, i consider most wristlocks as an afterthought or useful only in certain situations. aikido has much more than wristlocks.


Clearer?

[philipsmith]

No its not too complex. I've used it & it worked. In my opinion its not the art that creates a problem but the user. Some people will always freeze outside of the dojo while others never will. At least if you train regularly your response is at best automatic or at least semi-automatic and will give you an edge over an untrained individual although not necessarily your attacker (I consider them trained if they fight regularly).

In fact all MA or self-defence sysytems are only as good as the user.

[GhostRider]

aikinoob please, don't shoot the messenger since I don't actually believe that aikido is to complicated to use in a dangerous situation. Call it a hunch or a belief that old samuari wouldn't have invested serious time in a Bullsh*t martial art.

I just posted it since I hear that from a lot of non-aikidoka whenever the topic of aikido comes up or they hear that I'm thinking of taking aikido. I should've been more clear in my original statement and included that I also wanted to hear what aikidoka say when they encounter this sentiment.

philipsmith you touched on something I was talking about when you mentioned that some freeze outside a dojo and some don't when in a dangerous situation. Now does your aikido or have you personally come up with a method for dealing with that internal issue?

Thanks for your inputs so far guys... :D

[Silver_no2]

I used it twice while I was working on the door. Once I used shomen ate and the other time waki gatame. Both times it was effective. Maybe that was because I was sober and ready for it and the other guy involved each time was drunk...but the fact was that they came at me and I used the techniques that I had learnt.

[Slindsay]

I think the guys a joke, it annoys me imensely that he feels that he can teach simple practical techniques that you learn from a video whithout anyone helping you or any physical opponent there but that a traditional martial arts school with full contact sparring and punching drills and what have you is "Too complex to remember under stress"!!!

I am tempted to get his videos just to see what he teaches, I think it would be a good laugh, what he thinks he's going to teach that is simpler than some of the stuff I have learnt I dont know.

Seriously though, his main argument is that movements are to complex in martial arts but what on earth can be simpler than smacking the attacker in the face? What can he do from a video that will allow you to cope with the stress of an attack more easily but which cant be taught in the dojo when you are actually fighting someone?

[kevamania]

Non aikidoka only get to see the exhibition flashy aikido on demos etc.
Basically on the syllabus there are techniques,many of which are not applicable to the street at face value.But take a closer look and you will find that there are a lot of self defence orientated moves and every move can be adapted to a street situation no matter how flashy it looks,you just gotta take the basics from it.
It can be used in real situations,its just like everything worth doing,takes a lot of time dedication and consistency

A) No,it can be used.

B) Confidence,believing in yourself and your style.Knowing to stick tp the basics
(Going to training evey now and then wouldnt go astray!)Consistency

[timmeh!]

puh...

Sorry Ghostrider, time is short and puh! pretty much sums it up for me.

Good article though if your trying to sell a video :D

[aikiscotsman]

What the hells so complicate about IRIMI NAGE, it works a treat against all people, especially when you use the atemi the face,instead of the throw as that what real irimi nage is. Remember its a Martial ART not bloody street fighting, your there to learn a trillion more things than how to fight. There is not one true Martial ART out there that every single one of there techs will work against every single person. Some things are for the dojo only ie the ART. If you cant work out in your head what little changes you need to make to your art so its effective in the street then somethings very wrong.
I remember my time in Taekwondo (7years) there is a section called one step sparring( some of its about as effective as a chocolate tea cup) basically you stand waiting then you are attacked with a single striaght punch and then you learn to apply defencive strikes, kicks, locks etc. There is a time when you see them jumping spinning kicks to the head against a punch. thats just the art side it would never work if the person was close enough to punch you, or kicking to the head in a crowded pub.

[aikiwolfie]

Oh look my favourite type of question. :)

Actually I hate these questions for two reasons . The first being, it has been done to death and the second. Why would one of Japans most respected martial artists (O Sensei) create a useless style? Of which there are god knows how many spin-offs.

The article it's self looks at Aikido in a very simplistic light. There is certainly alot of throwing and immobalising involved. However there is also alot of work done to help people cope with stress. Some styles of Aikido use alot of meditation and breathing while others favour randori and sparring, all of which are very effective tried and tested methods for dealing with stress. In fact it's probably fair to say every martial art out there does something to help people cope with stress.

In short, people are taught to deal with this adrenaline dump thing, (I could be wrong I'm not an expert, but isn't dopeamine more likely to cause you to freeze than adrenaline is :confused: ).

So far as Aikido techniques as self defence go. The long winded techniques where uke runs round nage are there purely for the dojo. They are training excorcises. For a real situation the technique can be cut right down to it's objective. The technique isn't taught this way since Aikido also involves it's self in teaching students things like coordination and control.

[rabidpenguin]

I practice aikido and I'd say that sometimes at the lower level that some of the moves are too complicated for actual battle. But I would also say that if you were part way through a tecnique that you must already have control and it would be easy enough just to strike or sweep the other person leaving you accomplishing your one goal. Taking him down. But like aikiwolfe said most of them can be shortened to get to the point and end it. Either way I like it for its simpleness in that all you want to do is control the center and control both your and your opponent's balance. (well thats how I'm taught) Once you have both of these, or even one, the scales of a fight are tipped in your favor.

[aikiMac]

Ya, what the other Aikis said.
Hmm. Three Aikis agreeing. Must be something in the water.

[master35]

wheheheheheh!!!! cool guys:) self control is want we aikido practitioners are known for.:) we strike when least expected. hehehehehe!!!!

[master35]

I read the following article in an email I get from this man's site. I don't agree or disagree with it as I have no real good knowledge of using Aikido in a fight but I've heard similiar sentiments from many corners of the martial arts community.

I personally think that the assessment below might be biased since no-one does well in defending themselves untill they've gotten over the "mental-training" aspect of self-defence within their choosen martial art. Untill you have some experiance dealing with the "shock" value of an attack you really aren't going to be that effective with your choosen martial art.

So my question, after you read this is two-fold. ]
i've read it 2 fold ;)

[master35]

a.) do you think Aikido is too complicated no its not complicated. it just needs time to develop in a person ;)

to really learn to use effectively in a high adrenaline street fight / self-defence situation. of course! any art for that matter! but never in a learn to defend video :o

b.) If complexity is an issue in your choosen art form what do you do to prepare for and minimize the "shock" value of an attack.
i practice my but off!!! because my line of work as legal enforcement officer has my life at stake. ;)

[master35]

When I was studying Bujinkan Ninjutsu I was told to do the following in my free time... visualize an attack, visualize every facet of the attack and how you might react with the skills you have. I was to start with simple attacks and work my way on up to more complex attacks. In no way was this to replace any self-defence training, but it was thought that the more I could ''concieve" of a attack the more prepared I'd be mentally and emotionally for the "real-deal"
we'll good for you sir ;) but it took me 20years and i'm still training on aikido daily :D

[master35]

What do you think??? :confused:


Aikido and Self Defense

The principle of aikido is to blend in with the force or attack, yes! if possible or bruttaly take him down with any aikido moves posible on each situation. :)

join it and continue using the other persons power along with
your own power against them. Aikido uses a system of
leverage, finger, wrist and arm locks to subdue their potential
attacker. not only that! i use my teeth if everything is exausted ;)


Students spend a great deal of time learning to fall and roll,
usually on padded mats. This is necessary as the practice of
aikido requires practitioners to be able to withstand various types
of throws, sweeps and takedowns. not only that but he could stand quickly if ever he falls :cool:

[master35]

Typically, after a couple of years of training, students of aikido
are able to defend themselves from various type of open handed and
weapon attacks. and years after man! ;)

Watching a skilled Aikido student can be beautiful. It seems so
effortless in their maneuvers that they are able to send their
would be attacker flying in different directions. thats the beauty of it ;)

While this is all true in the Aikido dojo, the questions remains,
will they be able to really execute this on the street?
of course! not only is the attacker flying but screeming as well :D

To answer this we must look at the typical effects of adrenal
stress on most people, trained or un-trained. if adrenaline is not channeled properly panic comes :Alien:

[master35]

One of the most
devastating effects of the 'adrenaline dump' is the loss of fine
motor coordination. The other is a limited access to our cognitive
thinking. Both of these factors weigh heavily against the aikido
practitioner. i teach my boys to run first ask for help. do you mean he should stay and fight if he could run and evade? :confused:

While under a heavy surge of fear induced adrenaline, it is hard
to think very clearly or certainly, very quickly. In an art like
Aikido that requires a multitude of highly technical techniques,
it is doubtful whether most would have mental access to this arrary
of precision hand meneuvers.
oh no!!! man!!! your twisting the reallity of it :(
aikido techniques should be used in a sudden attack. not in a confrontation. thats teaching people to be violent :(

[master35]

Additionally the manual dexterity required for most of the wrist
manipulations would unlikely be useful because of the loss of fine
motor coordination during the adrenaline stress of a real attack. but thier feet could run. then its plan of fighting that comes into play. what they should do next is up to they're knowledge.

Our experience with our F.A.S.T. Defense (Fear Adrenal Stress
Response Training) training confirms this. We have seen experienced
Aikido practitioners fail to apply these techniques while adrenalized. maybe experience but not yet belted.

Written by
Shihan Michael Pace

Shihan Pace is the author of Street Self Defense 101. Read about
Street Self
Defense 101 at this link:
http://www.1shoppingcart.com/app/adtrack.asp?AdID=76304
whats your line of work man?
have you use your art for real?

[GhostRider]

master35 ... from your many remarks is it correct of me to assume that you attribute many of those comments from the article to me? I posted it for experianced Aikidoka's to peruse, answer some questions, and then pass their own judgement on. It was not an attempt to poke fun at or ridicule Aikido. I even said so, but not in so many clear words and that may have been my mistake as you have made clear to me.

When I was commenting on my own experiances such as what I was taught in Ninjutsu it was not with the intent to brag or state that I was an expert at what I was taught. Nor did I say what level of proficiency that I had reached in that particular set of skills. Nor is it my intention since it is not germane to my original intent. I said that as part of my questions to you, the experianced Aikidoka's of Martial Arts Planet. I was wondering if there was a similiar or even different set of skills that accomplished the same thing in Aikido.

If you seek verbal confrontation here, you will not find it with me, maybe one of the other posters, as confrontation and p*ssing folks off isn't my main objective.

Part of the reason I posted (and I alluded to this earlier, get your reading comprehension checked folks... :rolleyes: ) is that many non-aikidoka who are curious about the art do ask these sorts of questions. Another part of my quest was to ascertain what response is commonly given to such queries. So hopefully you weren't taking offence where none was intended. Thank you.

~ :cool:

[Tintin]

<Mod hat on...>

You can edit your previous posts to include new information you forgot to add. This would be a better course of action than 8 separate posts, most of which contain mainly quotes anyway.

<Mod hat off...>

[alex_000]

Is Aikido to complicated to use in a REAL fight???

Yes if you dont train in it :D

[master35]

<Mod hat on...>

You can edit your previous posts to include new information you forgot to add. This would be a better course of action than 8 separate posts, most of which contain mainly quotes anyway.

<Mod hat off...>
ooppsss :) sorry sir tintin :) dont know how to make it one post. i'm trying now to make it 1 post but the computer wont accept. if neccessary sir moderator :) and sir yoda pls. delete any post needed. thanx sir.

[master35]

master35 ... from your many remarks is it correct of me to assume that you attribute many of those comments from the article to me? I posted it for experianced Aikidoka's to peruse, answer some questions, and then pass their own judgement on. It was not an attempt to poke fun at or ridicule Aikido. I even said so, but not in so many clear words and that may have been my mistake as you have made clear to me.

When I was commenting on my own experiances such as what I was taught in Ninjutsu it was not with the intent to brag or state that I was an expert at what I was taught. Nor did I say what level of proficiency that I had reached in that particular set of skills. Nor is it my intention since it is not germane to my original intent. I said that as part of my questions to you, the experianced Aikidoka's of Martial Arts Planet. I was wondering if there was a similiar or even different set of skills that accomplished the same thing in Aikido.

If you seek verbal confrontation here, you will not find it with me, maybe one of the other posters, as confrontation and p*ssing folks off isn't my main objective.

Part of the reason I posted (and I alluded to this earlier, get your reading comprehension checked folks... :rolleyes: ) is that many non-aikidoka who are curious about the art do ask these sorts of questions. Another part of my quest was to ascertain what response is commonly given to such queries. So hopefully you weren't taking offence where none was intended. Thank you.

~ :cool:
:) no offense man, just making views :) no confrontation intended man.
you can also as well and wont object if you share your views ;)

[bambeer]

Although late in the conversation, I would like to add my two cents.

While under a heavy surge of fear induced adrenaline, it is hard
to think very clearly or certainly, very quickly. In an art like
Aikido that requires a multitude of highly technical techniques,
it is doubtful whether most would have mental access to this arrary
of precision hand meneuvers.

As a practitioner of the art (only shodan, so very much a beginner :) )I would say that this statement would be true if aikido was based on these techniques. These "complicated" techniques are not the final goal of aikido and are only a vehicle to understanding the greater principles involved in aikiwaza.

At our dojo we do both very fast multiple person randori and full reststance one on one randori, the techniques are never clean cut and when thought of ahead of time do not work right, BUT, if uke simply applies the concepts of entering and turning and placing the hands on the correct spot on uke's body, the techniques "happen".

Aikido is natural movement and follows all the principles of nature, its like relearning how to walk, and whats simpler than walking?

-cheers,

bambeer

[Silver_no2]

Aikido is natural movement and follows all the principles of nature, its like relearning how to walk, and whats simpler than walking?Crawling I guess. That's why babies start with that rather than walking :)

[aikiscotsman]

I though babies crawled becuase they had no other option, because there muscle construction is so limited that they cant take any pressure pushing down on ther little legs for at least 1 year, or until they become strong enough. I would imagine that if they could walk straight away they would , as the try to copy everything else an adult does.

[aikiwolfie]

Some babies don't even crawl. All my neices were bum shufflers. :)

[aikinoob]

so, we all agree that aikido can be effective.

who would've thought that would be the consensus in an aikido forum?

[sarcasm]

[GhostRider]

:) no offense man, just making views :) no confrontation intended man.
you can also as well and wont object if you share your views ;)


Then it was indeed my mistake and for that I do apologize. :o

[BH Alexander]

i was just wondering if anyone hade video or atleast stories of an advanced Aikido practicioner parrying against strong quick punches/jabs. this has been my biggest dillema w/ my motivation to take aikido. I don't know how well it would do against non dedicated movments ie: jabs, quick, nervous knife stabs, ect. like you would find in many streetfighting situations. Or would these just not be parried, and avoided until an opening is found?

[DexterTCN]

I think you will find the moves you are looking for here: link (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102614/)

[BH Alexander]

were u joking? or were u serious about the moves. I know he studied aikido, but i mean anyone can do reversals under scripted conditions, but i mean i want to see non-scripted demonstration

[master35]

Then it was indeed my mistake and for that I do apologize. :o
:D just keep on posting man :D

[master35]

i was just wondering if anyone hade video or atleast stories of an advanced Aikido practicioner parrying against strong quick punches/jabs. this has been my biggest dillema w/ my motivation to take aikido. I don't know how well it would do against non dedicated movments ie: jabs, quick, nervous knife stabs, ect. like you would find in many streetfighting situations. Or would these just not be parried, and avoided until an opening is found?
here's a pic man. look for this movie of sensie seagal. it has its philosophy. and he said just take out some of the fun part ;) .
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-4/704511/seagal123.jpg

[master35]

were u joking? or were u serious about the moves. I know he studied aikido, but i mean anyone can do reversals under scripted conditions, but i mean i want to see non-scripted demonstration
those are the fun part sensei wants you to reject. but he puts his philosophy on fighting :). but if you need to sell something the producer demands it. ;) but he could really punch hard. :D

[aikinoob]

http://www.aikidog.com/

this is probably about as close as your going to get. look at some of Jason's demos.

[Dave Rees]

I did Aikido very briefly (6 months) & have nothing but respect for the art & Aikidoka, I found it very technical but that was more my problem, I truly believe it can be a devastating art used by the right person unfortunately that wasn't me!!! I stuck with Judo instead which suited me better, it's horses for courses, it's the martial artisit not the martial art that counts I believe.

[aikiMac]

i was just wondering if anyone hade video or atleast stories of an advanced Aikido practicioner parrying against strong quick punches/jabs. this has been my biggest dillema w/ my motivation to take aikido. I don't know how well it would do against non dedicated movments ie: jabs, quick, nervous knife stabs, ect. like you would find in many streetfighting situations. Or would these just not be parried, and avoided until an opening is found?
My first aikido teacher could do it. I have no question in my mind. Granted he was fast and highly skilled ... but doesn't that come from practice? Practice practice practice, same as the boxers and the wrestlers and the MMA guys and everyone else. Keep practicing.

My teacher avoided when he could, and parried when he couldn't. The strength of aikido is it's avoidance. Footwork will take you far. He was very, very hard to hit because he never stood where he was "supposed" to stand. Damn footwork. But as for parries, aikido parries can be the same as wing chun or escrima or silat or karate parries. There's nothing special about a parry as far as I've ever seen.

[aikiscotsman]

If you can parry with weapons fast then of course you can with fast punchs, you MUST practice though. Practice with someone who knows punching.

[GhostRider]

At the risk of derailing my own thread I have a question for all you wise Aikidoka's... (this is semi-related though)

I've heard some folks tell me that strikes are used in this system, that I don't doubt. But I've heard that some basic kicks are taught as well and that really suprised me... :confused: Here's a list of the strikes and the kicks that were told to me exist in some Aikido systems


Shomen uchi Overhead strike to the head

Yokomen uchi Strike to the side of the head

Mune tsuki Straight thrust (punch) to the chest

Men tsuki Straight thrust (punch) to the face

Kata dori men uchi Shoulder grab, punch to the face

...Now none of the above suprised me it only made me more interested to dig deeper upon which, I was told these "kicks" are in the syllabus as well. Now, if that' true, why don't you see more Aikidoka's occasionally useing this "kicks"???

Mae geri Front kick

Yoko geri Side kick

Mawashi geri Roundhouse kick

[Virtuous]

Regarding quick/non- commited attacks. Evade and parry as you normally would but dont target the attacking hand/arm if it is moving too fast to gain control of. There are other targets of opportunity, the neck, the other arm, sometimes the torso or leg. When you apply the technique it will be very much static and you may have to be creative about taking the initial balance but aiki will give you the tools to do just that.

But just like any other martial art, its the ability of the artist, not the art.

[master35]

At the risk of derailing my own thread I have a question for all you wise Aikidoka's... (this is semi-related though)

I've heard some folks tell me that strikes are used in this system, that I don't doubt. But I've heard that some basic kicks are taught as well and that really suprised me... :confused: Here's a list of the strikes and the kicks that were told to me exist in some Aikido systems


Shomen uchi Overhead strike to the head

Yokomen uchi Strike to the side of the head

Mune tsuki Straight thrust (punch) to the chest

Men tsuki Straight thrust (punch) to the face

Kata dori men uchi Shoulder grab, punch to the face

...Now none of the above suprised me it only made me more interested to dig deeper upon which, I was told these "kicks" are in the syllabus as well. Now, if that' true, why don't you see more Aikidoka's occasionally useing this "kicks"???

Mae geri Front kick

Yoko geri Side kick

Mawashi geri Roundhouse kick
for me sir kick and punch are only use as atemi.

[DexterTCN]

Kicks are rarely seen at lower levels of Aikido. There are a few reasons for this:-

Posture: a great deal of time is spent trying to get people to keep good posture, (centred, aware etc) so most applications are taught as the hands moving from the centre.

Distance: trying to keep people outside the range of an attack (even if only one inch). The different spacing (ma-ai) used in Aiki usually negates the threat of kicks (and indeed punches, which is part of the reason why most 'attacks' seen in aiki are useless - because the buggers dont learn them properly).

Leading: Trying to teach the principles of redirection (even if you are redirecting it straight back into their face, it isn't always gentle) against kicks opens a whole can of worms.

Rolling: many Aikidoka develop the ability to roll in any direction (in a sphere not a circle) which they would lose by raising their foot or extending it. (This may seem a minor point, however the abilty to 'absorb and roll' is a large part of Aikido)

Striking: Aikidoka just do not spend the time developing strikes that..er....striking arts do.

[aikiscotsman]

If you think the attacks in Aikido ar useless its because your attitude to the attacks is very wrong.
When i was attcked in japan with the same attacks they are so bloody deadly, one reason isd because they understand weapons better. I new that if i didnt blend properly with the attacks my face would be spread across the tatami. They are so effective to real life attacks. if your attitude is real.
So when doing yokomen the attitude must be like a hook punch or ken strike.
when doing shomen it must reflect reality like a bottle over the head or a strike straight up under the jaw.
All the rest are the same just think about it and try to make it as real as poss. even when slow it must be committed with no staggering or delays if they dont move they will get a sore head or face this is reality.
As for kicks. i remember saito sensei being asked why there are no kicks in aikido, and he said one reason is you are always leading uke of balance or pinning his feet to the ground( as pat cassidy says) so they cant kick.
Aikido is as real as you want it to be or as fake as you want it to be.
I can understand peoples thoughts on the attacks being strange because they appear very unortherdox.
Its also very difficult for some one with no martial training to walk into aikido and be good at attacks. where as say a boxer or karateka or tkd person will no good fast relaxed and powerful attacks which if they think about will help so much. Plus WEAPONS are there to understand stroong attacks and thereto help you recieve strong attacks

[master35]

:) thats true. aikido is use because armor used on late period has a weakness on the wrist.

[OBCT]

I read the following article in an email I get from this man's site. I don't agree or disagree with it as I have no real good knowledge of using Aikido in a fight but I've heard similiar sentiments from many corners of the martial arts community.

I personally think that the assessment below might be biased since no-one does well in defending themselves untill they've gotten over the "mental-training" aspect of self-defence within their choosen martial art. Untill you have some experiance dealing with the "shock" value of an attack you really aren't going to be that effective with your choosen martial art.

So my question, after you read this is two-fold.

a.) do you think Aikido is too complicated to really learn to use effectively in a high adrenaline street fight / self-defence situation.

b.) If complexity is an issue in your choosen art form what do you do to prepare for and minimize the "shock" value of an attack?

When I was studying Bujinkan Ninjutsu I was told to do the following in my free time... visualize an attack, visualize every facet of the attack and how you might react with the skills you have. I was to start with simple attacks and work my way on up to more complex attacks. In no way was this to replace any self-defence training, but it was thought that the more I could ''concieve" of a attack the more prepared I'd be mentally and emotionally for the "real-deal"

What do you think??? :confused:


Aikido and Self Defense

The principle of aikido is to blend in with the force or attack,
join it and continue using the other persons power along with
your own power against them. Aikido uses a system of
leverage, finger, wrist and arm locks to subdue their potential
attacker.

Students spend a great deal of time learning to fall and roll,
usually on padded mats. This is necessary as the practice of
aikido requires practitioners to be able to withstand various types
of throws, sweeps and takedowns.

Typically, after a couple of years of training, students of aikido
are able to defend themselves from various type of open handed and
weapon attacks.

Watching a skilled Aikido student can be beautiful. It seems so
effortless in their maneuvers that they are able to send their
would be attacker flying in different directions.

While this is all true in the Aikido dojo, the questions remains,
will they be able to really execute this on the street?

To answer this we must look at the typical effects of adrenal
stress on most people, trained or un-trained. One of the most
devastating effects of the 'adrenaline dump' is the loss of fine
motor coordination. The other is a limited access to our cognitive
thinking. Both of these factors weigh heavily against the aikido
practitioner.

While under a heavy surge of fear induced adrenaline, it is hard
to think very clearly or certainly, very quickly. In an art like
Aikido that requires a multitude of highly technical techniques,
it is doubtful whether most would have mental access to this arrary
of precision hand meneuvers.

Additionally the manual dexterity required for most of the wrist
manipulations would unlikely be useful because of the loss of fine
motor coordination during the adrenaline stress of a real attack.

Our experience with our F.A.S.T. Defense (Fear Adrenal Stress
Response Training) training confirms this. We have seen experienced
Aikido practitioners fail to apply these techniques while adrenalized.

Written by
Shihan Michael Pace

Shihan Pace is the author of Street Self Defense 101. Read about
Street Self
Defense 101 at this link:
http://www.1shoppingcart.com/app/adtrack.asp?AdID=76304

Excellent question. Thing is, if you want the honest answer, do this...
Look up your local police, the armed forces for your country, local doorman training, i guarantee a majority of the training is aikido based.
I know the British army use aikido in the Sherwood foresters and in the ??????Royal Marines, and i know Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, Leicestershire and Manchester Met Police forces use Aikido, i personally know and have trained with a few doorman, and even a jewellery courier that prefer aikido over other arts.
All these people are subject to adrenal rushes, emotions, fear, they are human, but you have to wonder why they choose aikido and not another art for these purposes.

[eliem_iv]

the best thing i've learned from aikido books is on how to use your opponents' neck to subdue their multiple attacks..

and that needs no practice!

[Slindsay]

eliem iv: Could you explain what you mean by that?

Also as a general note I think the reason people question Aikidos effectiveness is for a few fairly legit reasons though I do accept that they vary from school to school.

1. Aikido techniques are undeniably complex when compared to most striking arts and many grappling arts

2. Aikido doesnt employ resisting opponents

3. Most Aikido people admit it takes a lot longer to get to a level of profficency in Aikido that allows you to defend yourself

4. You learn evasive footwork in Aikido but to dodge and parry quicker blows footwork is not particularly suitable unless you try keeping your distance

5. the lack of sparring (A tool to help with judging distance and improving reactions) is absent in Aikido

[Florida Warlock]

I don't know much about Aikido (although I am interested almost to obsession... all I have is a JKD dojo and it's doing great for now), but I know that learning from videos is at least a hundred times more difficult than learning from a skilled instructor.

And it can't possibly be effective if only four hours long.

I've tried to use martial arts from movies(even worse than instruction videos, my hand got worn out more from pausing, playing, slow-motioning, stopping, than it did from using the techniques), distinguishing between the possible and the [currently] impossible, and it's very difficult because there's no one to show you if it's right or wrong. You'd have to hire someone to spar with you after every ten minutes of the show to see if what you've learned is worth anything.

I'd like to see someone who spent four hours on their ass fight someone who goes to a dojo five days a week for two hours for years fight. Now that would be funny.

[Dave Humm]

1. Aikido techniques are undeniably complex when compared to most striking arts and many grappling arts Do you think that Karate or Judo technique and principles are EASY ?2. Aikido doesnt employ resisting opponentsI think there are some Shodokan students here who will argue that point with you. However; if an application like Irimi Nage is being applied correctly and with some degree of spirit, would you want to resist against a potential (and serious) neck injury ? Ok, so many aikido schools are OTT when it comes to the compliance levels between Uke and Tori but, to generalise with your previous statement is a but over zealous.3. Most Aikido people admit it takes a lot longer to get to a level of proficiency in Aikido that allows you to defend yourselfHerein lies a very important factor that "most" forget to ask themselves... "Why do I study Aikido" Aikido isn't primarily a "self defense" form. Indeed I would be the first to admit there are several other systems out there which have greater impact on the student for 'the street' Aikido isn't one of them IMHO My advice to any student wanting the learn "self defense" (and nothing else) is to study something else.4. You learn evasive footwork in Aikido but to dodge and parry quicker blows footwork is not particularly suitable unless you try keeping your distance Eh ? There really isn't such a thing as "evasive footwork" what you do with your feet reflects what your body does as a result - tai sabaki - posture or body management. But I still fail to grasp your point here?5. the lack of sparring (A tool to help with judging distance and improving reactions) is absent in AikidoAgain our Shodokan members will give you several arguments regarding this point however, pick up a bokken or jo, learn the kumitachi/kumijo and you have "sparring" within most styles of aikido that teach exactly those things - timing - distance - posture.

Dave

[kiaiki]

I agree with all of the above from Dave and Aikiscotsman. In Shudokan (Yoshinkan) the 'freestyle' attacks by Uke are supposed to be totally committed, full of the energy Tori requires to apply the techniques dynamically. Of course, you take account of the skill of the Tori, and by 1st Dan these attack were, in the words of our Soke, to 'bring Tori close to death'. Unless we are properly trained in attack how can we possibly give each other practice at the appropriate level?

There's an Aikido style and teacher to suit just about every need, I reckon, so do a bit of research and make some visits. I would advise looking at Shorinji Kempo as well.

Then stick to one style and train, train, train......then train a bit more. You'll need more than techniques for a real fight, however:

My own club has included military personnel, police, door staff etc who have all used what they learned to good effect, even though the attacks were not by MA students but angry/drugged/streetfighters etc. and the weapons were baseball bats, knives, machettes etc rather than the jo or tanto. (In fairness, we do train with modern street weapons as well.)

IMHO, with 'real' fights it comes back to the old adage: ' What wins a fight - is it the dog in the fight or the fight in the dog?'. Aikido prepares your spirit and mind as well as your body. Good fighters I've seen/heard of in 'street' situations control anger, control power (timing, distance and balance) and exhibit confidence ('assertiveness') even when afraid. They sometimes don't need to fight at all because of their demeanour. Some of that may be innate but I've seen Aikido change a lot of people for the better in that respect.

So, no - Aikido's not too complicated for a 'real fight' because although you may learn a technique more quickly in another art, you become better equipped to fight as you mature in your art. But don't get cocky - we have plenty of guns in the UK now!

[aiki-jo]

Aikido can be used as effective means of self-defense. The only problem is that is can take many years to properly learn it. If you're looking for a self-defense art, i would suggest something else. Something that is easier and quicker to learn. If you want to develop a higher level of understanding, stay with aikido. Hopefully within 5-7 years, you'll feel comfortable to use it.

[aikiwolfie]

I would think after the first few practices a student should be able to see Aikidos potential. After 6 months to a year they should at least be comfortable avoiding attacks.

Five to seven years however takes most students to 1st/2nd dan. If the student isn't comfortable by this time one would have to ask, what have they been studying all that time and what on earth is the teacher teaching?

It might take years to develop your Aikido skill to a level that will impress outsiders. It shouldn't however take a student years to learn to protect them selves.

[Slindsay]

Do you think that Karate or Judo technique and principles are EASY ?

By comparison? Yes, alot more so because they appeal to the natural instinct of hitting someone, that is to say smcking someone in the face (Gross simplification I know :) )

I think there are some Shodokan students here who will argue that point with you. However; if an application like Irimi Nage is being applied correctly and with some degree of spirit, would you want to resist against a potential (and serious) neck injury ? Ok, so many aikido schools are OTT when it comes to the compliance levels between Uke and Tori but, to generalise with your previous statement is a but over zealous.Herein lies a very important factor that "most" forget to ask themselves... "Why do I study Aikido" Aikido isn't primarily a "self defense" form. Indeed I would be the first to admit there are several other systems out there which have greater impact on the student for 'the street' Aikido isn't one of them IMHO. My advice to any student wanting the learn "self defense" (and nothing else) is to study something else

Fair enough but to me thats close to saying that Aikido isnt as effective as other martial arts

Eh ? There really isn't such a thing as "evasive footwork" what you do with your feet reflects what your body does as a result - tai sabaki - posture or body management.

The body can bob and move without having the feet move at all, look at how a boxer dodges punches without surrendering ground to an opponent.


But I still fail to grasp your point here?Again our Shodokan members will give you several arguments regarding this point however, pick up a bokken or jo, learn the kumitachi/kumijo and you have "sparring" within most styles of aikido that teach exactly those things - timing - distance - posture.

Dave

But in that case why not actually include sparring without weapons? A large part of the philosophy of Aikido seems to me to be taken as meaning that sparring shouldnt be done, why is it different to do so with weapons? (Im assuming that is what kumitachi/kumijo is).

I suppose what I really want to see is Aikido going wrong, situations where someone gets thrown but instead of falling they grab hold of the throwers shirt and hold on so the thrower has to do something else, I never see an Aikido technique that doesnt work due to the actions of an attacker.

[aikiwolfie]

The body can bob and move without having the feet move at all, look at how a boxer dodges punches without surrendering ground to an opponent.I don't take as much interest in boxing as I used to. But it's fairly normal for boxers to move their feet almost continuously. Danceing on their toes in many cases. I can't remember any boxers off the top of my head who faught flat footed.

I suppose what I really want to see is Aikido going wrong, situations where someone gets thrown but instead of falling they grab hold of the throwers shirt and hold on so the thrower has to do something else, I never see an Aikido technique that doesnt work due to the actions of an attacker.It happens all the time. Do a google search for some videos and pay close attention. You'll see a good number of people compensating to make techniques work.

[aiki-jo]

Aikiwolfie, you have to remember, most Aikido styles do not strike. They're relying on 'taking ones center', or whatever that means. So 6 months to a year might be long enough to avoid an attack, well so is walking the other way. So if you have a person that's been training to punch and kick, 6 months to a year is plenty. On the other hand, if you have an Aikido person training for 5 years, the complexity is much greater than to simply punch and kick. How many times have you done randori and gotten clocked? I mean a real randori.... There's your answer. You could train for 1 year or 20 years, it takes time to feel comfortable using what you know.

[Rebel Wado]

Aikiwolfie, you have to remember, most Aikido styles do not strike.

Really? I thought all Aikido styles had atemi. Regardless of whether or not the atemi that is taught is good enough to be useful in a real fight, what do you mean by "most Aikido styles do not strike".

[aikiwolfie]

I mean they either don't make contact or don't teach the atemi properly. Perhaps I should have said schools rather than styles. I realise it doesn't applie to ALL schools and there are people here like my self who do make use of proper atemi. But it does seem to be a problem in Aikido that atemis are not being taught or are not being taught properly any longer.

[aiki-jo]

You're correct about many schools not using atemi. I've seen it over and over again. How many times have you been in an altercation and gotten one shot off? After the person hits the ground, you're like, c'mon now... I really wanted to apply sankyo on you, get up. Most of the time, after one shot, thats it. Time to go home. Its a joke that these schools won't teach atemi properly. I won't characterize ALL of Aikido in this.