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gt3
09-Jul-2004, 10:49 AM
Why do all the 'masters' do the same form differently?! Specifically the yang cheng-fu long form.

In the book 'Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan" by Fu Zhongwen (a student of YCF), it has drawings taken of YCF performing "brush the left knee" aka "left brush knee, twist step" and not only shows YCF's right palm facing upward and winding back (like a baseball pitcher throwing an overhand pitch) and lookin at his palm but it even says thats what you're supposed to do, BUT in my video tapes of Yang Jwing Ming he doesn't look at his hand, and in my video of erle montaigue teaching the YCF long form he specifically says NOT to wind the hand back or have the palm facing upward because its incorrect! How can he say that if YCF himself did it? My other videos show them winding back but not looking at the hand. The only one who seems to do it the way YCF did it is Daniel Lee in his video series on the form.

Another thing I see everyoing doing differently is the "white crane spreads its wings" some people have their right arm way up in the air with the elbow higher than the shoulder (including yang jwing ming and erle montaigue), arent the elbows always supposed to be lower than the shoulders? Daniel lee's video also seems to do this with his elbow lower than his shoulder.

Is daniel lee the only one doing it correctly? Or are they all correct or what. This is very confusing to me because I want to practice this form right and i have no idea which teacher is doing it right. There are other moves in the form that are also done totally differently. Why can't everyone agree on this? And why isn't there some standard of how to do these moves. It seems rediculous that we have all these supposed masters teaching the same form totally differently, how is the beginning student supposed to know which path to follow, just pick one at random? and 10 years of practicing it find out it was wrong the whole time?? It only seems logical that if yang cheng-fu's version of this form was carefully documented that EVERYONE who claims to teach the form would do it exactly like him.

YODA
09-Jul-2004, 11:19 AM
Maybe it doesn't matter - and the real secret if there is one is nothing to do with such trivia as where your palm is facing?

Just a wild guess.

Dave_Britten
09-Jul-2004, 11:37 AM
I've never seen two people do any form the same but I don't really expect to. The form is different for everyone depending on where they are placing their emphasis and personal physical characteristics. Remember the form is a teaching tool for tai chi as a martial art. Read and understand the classics. From there decide where you want to place your emphasis and think about the differences in the forms and make your own decisions.

Dave

haaptic
09-Jul-2004, 11:37 AM
and "THATS" not even a secret,

but i agree that the mind should be not so worried about the external particulariities because then you are just practicing "dance".

if you just ensure you are doing the fundamentals while doing forms, (ie: back & head straight, relax shoulders, sink hips ect ect, you guys know the rest..) then everything else (externally) will fall naturally into place.

Kinjiro Tsukasa
09-Jul-2004, 04:14 PM
It is very helpful to have a teacher who will teach the martial applications of Tai Chi Chuan. When you understand the actual intended use of a posture, it becomes apparent where the hand should be facing, for example, and why.

In my class, we don't look at our hands much -- if you look at your hands, that means you are taking your eyes off your opponent!

In "White Crane Spreads Its Wings", I can't imagine why the right arm would be way up in the air, unless you are imagining a seven-foot tall opponent.

gt3
09-Jul-2004, 05:20 PM
If this stuff isn't important why do the instructors go out of their way to say that doin it differently than their way is incorrect. What i keep thinkin about is i'll learn the form one way and then get used to it after practincg it that way for years then some teacher i may end up with will see my form and say 'oh no, this is wrong and this is wrong and this is wrong' and i'll go well not according to the way i learned it.. and then i'll have to relearn certain things which wouldn't be easy if i had drilled the form one way for years!

gt3
09-Jul-2004, 05:26 PM
In my class, we don't look at our hands much -- if you look at your hands, that means you are taking your eyes off your opponent!

So when yang cheng-fu says to look at your hand he was just having the health purpose of the form in mind?

In "White Crane Spreads Its Wings", I can't imagine why the right arm would be way up in the air, unless you are imagining a seven-foot tall opponent

I can't imagine why either, but both yang jwing ming and erle montaigue performed it that way and they're both considered top martial arts proponents of tai chi

gt3
09-Jul-2004, 06:39 PM
Ok, I just found an article by Erle Montaigue that says he teaches the Chen Wei-Ming version of the Yang Cheng-fu form. And I know chen wei-ming was a favorite student of Yang Cheng-Fu and YCF even asked him to write a few books on the style, i even already had one of the books "Tai Chi Ch'uan Ta Wen"

This is the first time i've seen anyone actually say theres a different version of the Yang Cheng-Fu form and what the version was actually called, this greatly puts my mind at ease and I will now be learning this form from the Erle Montaigue videos.

I found out that Daniel Lee learned tai chi from his father but i don't know what version of the YCF form they call it.

An exerpt from the article:

I do teach the Chen Wei-ming version of Yang Cheng-fu's form (Yang changed his style three times), however, my main style is the Old Yang style of Yang Lu-ch'an as taught by Yang Shou-hou, the brother of Yang Cheng-fu. Shou-hou did not change his Father's style as did Yang Cheng-fu.

http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/old_yang.htm

dashao
09-Jul-2004, 07:33 PM
In "White Crane Spreads Its Wings", I can't imagine why the right arm would be way up in the air, unless you are imagining a seven-foot tall opponent






in response to the white crane hand thing in class i brought this up and got an answer for a more martially form you would keep your arms in a bit more (thereby not overexposing yourself)

if you want a more health oriantated form you could spread it further apart
also another approach would be you are a white crane a very proud bird you stick your chest out and spread your wings you are not a sick crane with your arms in real close.

dont forget tai chi is also a beautifull art beautifull but deadly