Adrenaline Training

[Mike-KSW]

The other day I was in a semi-hostile situation that reminded me of the effect of adrenaline pumping through my system. A possible fight is in it's verbal stage is the best time to diffuse the fight before it even gets started. I've had good results with just talking people back down to a calm state, but the adrenaline really makes it hard sometimes.

When adrenaline kicks in for me, the main things that bother me is the shaking legs and the dullness of wit. In my personal experience, humbling yourself and talking to the attacker as if he were a friend can usually calm the situation. Showing fear can ruin this tactic, so having my entire body trembling because of the adrenaline can be a problem. Not to mention that saying the right things can become hard in the fight-or-flight process.

My main point here is how can you train yourself to handle the adrenaline to remain calm in the situation. I have read that the U.S. Navy Seals try to simulate the feeling of adrenaline by using sleep deprevation and extreme cold temperatures together while training in an attempt to get the trainee de-sensitized to the feeling. I, of course, have no intention of doing any training like that.

I was just wondering if anybody had any ideas as to other ways to stimulate the adrenaline rush feeling (aside from going out and starting fights) in order to become more used to it. Thanks!

[shaolintiger]

hi , im a wing chun stylist and am very interested in rbsd (reality based self defence).

from what i have learned from a whole bunch of people with a vast amount of real street experience, martial arts training WITHOUT adrenal stress training is woefully inadequate to prepare you for the street.

that shaking of the legs/dulling of thoughts/sweating/tunnel vision/auditory exclusion is caused by the dumping of adrenaline and noradrenaline into the bloodstream when your brain anticipates a dangerous situation (ie a fight).

heres the really bad news, your bpm (heartrate) can go from 80 - 200 in an instant when the adrenal dump hits you.

what does this mean to the martial artist ?

at around 140 bpm you lose fine motor skills, anything over that and all you are left with is "gross" motor skills.

what are fine motor skills?
anything that requires precise movements really, locks, complex striking combinations/kicking combinations, fancy footwork etc.

what are gross motor skills?
basic punches/palms, low kicks, knees and headbutts.

another thing that you will notice when the sh*t hits the fan is that cognitive thought is lost, this is due to the fact that the body draws blood into all the major muscle groups to prepare for fight or flight, the major muscle (the brain) tends to be a little left out at this point and because not as much blood is getting there as normal, things like thinking what to do/making a strategy are very unlikely.

ok, the good news is that you can experience all of the above stuff and fight realistically through it and then analyse how you did by going on a f.a.s.t defence bulletman course.

www.rmcat.com is the place to look, they have instructors all over the world,
i did my course in the uk last year and it really tested my courage and wing chun skills : it is a VERY profound experience and shows that it is very possible to fight through the adrenal dump, just dont go expecting to pull off any flashy techniques as they wont be there!

all the best buddy,

shaolintiger

[cybermonk]

What I am about to say may sound very very stupid to some of you...but I will say it anyway just for the sake of knowledge. When I was younger the adrenaline rush would hit me quite a lot when I had to fight other people but after a while I began believing that other people were no danger at all and the feeling just went away, it still used to hit me when people had knifes though, so that would be something to work on. Many would argue that understimating people like that is stupid, and I agree but I rather understimate someone and be at my best fighting capacity than calculate the danger they may pose and be unable to respond effectively to the threat. There...I said it.

[Matt_Bernius]

It's very possible to simulate adrenal dumps. Perhaps the best way is scenario role playing. My experience with this comes from exposure to Blauer Personal Defense Readiness (http://www.tonyblauer.com).

These roleplaying situations are un scripted and played out where you have a defender and atleast on aggressor. The defender is given little to know information about the scenario. The aggressor makes up a scenario begining with the emotional attack. They could play out a street encounter (someone asking a question leading to a mugging), a bar encounter (You just spilled your beer on me), or any number of other situations. The results will be unscripted. Sometimes you can talk yourself out of the situation. Other times the attack is unavoidable.

However if both people are committed to playing the roles and acting in a realistic fashion you are able to begin to simulate an Adrenal dump. Will it be as bad as reality? No. But speaking from experience, you can go pretty far in the drill. I've gotten the chance to play with this a few times and each time, provided the aggressor was working well, I could feel the dump taking place.

As to Cybermonk's comments, the big issue with the dump is that it takes place when your unexpectedly thrown into a situation. I know a lot of martial artists who feel like they can avoid it because they no longer feel adrenal rushes while sparring. The problem is that they are in an environment were the violence is agreed to. Once your removed from that context often people have a far more difficult time reacting to unexpect stimulus. Most psychologists argue that the flinch reaction is ultimately unavoidable for 99.9% of the population once they are suprised and their mental model is temporarily broken.

Your right that if your expecting the attack you can reduce the effect of the dump. However, most social preditors prey on those who are clearly not expecting an attack to happen.

- Matt

[cybermonk]

Good points there, the roleplaying idea sounds interesting, I think I may give it a try to see what its like sometime. What I said on the previous post wasnt about sparring, I was talking about my experience when I lived in Cuba, but now that I think about it, where I used to live violence was pretty much the norm so I guess we could say it was "agreed on" all the time, I dont know if that makes sense but its something you have to live to understand.

[Matt_Bernius]

It definitely does. If you live in a war zone you expect certain behavior.

My point is once you move out of the war zone, and aclimate to a new environment, you may experience adrenal dumps in situations that it the past wouldn't effect you.

Redgardless of the form we like stability. Once taken out of our element we become far more vulernable to fight or flight instincts.

- Matt

[Kwan Jang]

-I've worked with Peyton Quinn, Bill Kipp and Meredith Gold of RMCAT and there methods are good. However, many students and even instructors can be uncomfortable with the aggressor role and it may not be appropriate and overly practical in many class settings. Though some use of these role play activities can be very good.
-What I use a lot more of in our classes is an adrenal circle drill. The defender is surrounded closely (within their comfort zone which by itself can raise adrenal levels) by the group of attackers. The attackers "pass the attack" so the defender (whose eyes are closed) has no idea whcih direction the attack is coming from. The group pulls back two steps and begins yelling and clapping while the attacker comes at them (BTW-the defender may now open their eyes). This can be very effective for learning how to compensate for adrenal stress w/o some of the drawbacks of the hostile roleplays, especially with children.
-Another overlooked traditional drill can be effective for this: one-step attacks. Used for beginners, one steps may only be of value for teaching integration of weapons along with distancing and accuracy, but for advanced students the instructor can be more creative and work adrenal stress into the drill. Also making the initial attack random and having the defender have to react to any and every type of attack can go a long ways. BTW-Any combo that has been trained well enough into your muscle memory will be retained during adrenal stress, so one-steps can be excellent for drilling your "bread and butter" self defense and sparring combos. This way they are there when needed in the pinch.

[Matt_Bernius]

Kwan,

Great points. In PDR a lot of time is spent working to understand the attacker mindset and break down a lot of the insecurity issues that prevent people from being good attackers. I agree that you can't just drop roleplaying onto a group. There needs to be a lot of hand holding and coaching. However, I really like this method because it addresses all the phases of a confrontation rather than beginning with the physical that tends to come last.

Agreed that one steps are a great tool. I need to meditate on how to increase the "dump" factor in them. I tend to find that people aclimate to these types of drills pretty quickly.

I like your circle idea. I'm having a bit of a time envisioning some of the details of it. I'll have to try that and come back with questions.

I also think that you bring up a great point. Hostile roleplay is not a tool that I would use wth a child. I think some role play is ok (i.e. a light verbal confrontation), however, I don't think it's a good idea to engage in hostile or attack behavior with them. There are enough studies that show that they have a hard time resolving this type of mixed signal (well meaning as it might be) from people that they know.

- Matt

[pug32]

In my jkd class we do this about once a month, while its difficult to create the fear of a real situation, you can certainly affect moods with posturing, background music verbal attacks and also mass attack e.g. 2+ onto you. This is always a great leveller when you think you can throw a good solid shot.
also turning off lights, train in socks so base is tricky, close one eye to mess up your distance judgement good night club simulation ;)
I like my instructors viewpoint that we all get used to throwing shots at focus mitts under "ideal" conditions, so its important to scramble things every now and again

[Capt Ann]

One Comment, and One Question:

The adrenal rush is caused by the sympathetic nervous system, an automatic response that you have practically no control over (it turns on all by itself). It is the "fight-or-flight" response that dumps adrenaline into your system, raises your heart rate, increases blood pressure, constricts your blood vessels, dilates your pupils, increases your perspiration, shifts your respiration to rapid, shallow breaths, and cuts or reduces bloodflow to your stomach and head to get it to the major muscles. After the emergency, your parasympathetic nervous system is supposed to switch you, automatically, back to 'normal' everything. The parasympathetic system slows your respiration to deeper, slower breathing, reduces your blood pressure and heart rate, reduces your perspiration, etc. etc.

Comment: You can trigger this response yourself, by purposefully controlling your breathing and forcing yourself to take slower, deeper breaths from the diaphragm. In a very stressful situation, this will have the effect of bringing back that fine motor skill, clearer thinking ability, and a sense of calm, because it lowers the blood pressure, heartrate, adrenaline levels, etc. etc. This works GREAT between rounds in a sparring match.

Question: I'd like some thoughts on this from people who have a little more experience than I do, with actually being in a situation where someone is trying to knock your head off. Would you actually have time to force the parasympathetic response through controlling your breathing, in the middle of the build-up to a fight? (Might not help when a mugger jumps out on top of you, but it might help with calming the bar patron whose beer you just spilled.)

Your thoughts?

[hunter_kaval]

Two things if you increase your heart rate through excersise weather it be martial arts training or another form of aerobic fitness (i.e. swimming, cycling etc). Would this then allow a person who is suddenly jumped and put in a violent situation to coupe better with the "fight or flight" adrenaline situation seeing as i have a high heart rate and my heart rate cant go much higher does this give more controll.

Secondly to cybermonk perharps you were comfortable with the sitation and thats why the strain wasnt so much perhaps you had some controll over your adreaniline.

[Matt_Bernius]

Question: I'd like some thoughts on this from people who have a little more experience than I do, with actually being in a situation where someone is trying to knock your head off. Would you actually have time to force the parasympathetic response through controlling your breathing, in the middle of the build-up to a fight? (Might not help when a mugger jumps out on top of you, but it might help with calming the bar patron whose beer you just spilled.)

It's possible to minimize the dump. The basic school of thought is once one is in control of the situation they can begin to minimize it's effects. This is one of the reasons that many reality based self defense situations encourage not waiting for a physical attack to confront the aggressor. The longer you stay in a victim position the worse the dump becomes. So yes, controlling your breathing, accepting the situation and looking for a way to take control of it are all methods to keep control of your sympathetic/parasympathetic systems.

Two things if you increase your heart rate through excersise weather it be martial arts training or another form of aerobic fitness (i.e. swimming, cycling etc). Would this then allow a person who is suddenly jumped and put in a violent situation to coupe better with the "fight or flight" adrenaline situation seeing as i have a high heart rate and my heart rate cant go much higher does this give more controll.

No. Apples and oranges from my experience. There's a lot more going on that simply your heart rate increasing. Adrenaline has specific psychological effects on a person. You may be used to a high heart rate, but your not necessarily used to or prepared for all of the other chemical changes that are occurring throughout your body when it releases that adrenal coctail.

- MAtt

[Judderman]

Some excellent advice above. Role playing is an excellent way to desensatise the mind to verbal confrontation. This doesn't necassarily have to be done in a class, you could just ask some friends to "get in your face".

As for the adrenal activity, I have found reaserch worked well for me. If you understand what is happening to you then it easier to use the will power to diffuse it.

I've had loads of occassions where some one is ranting and raving at me and as Matt said knowing that you can control the situation, or indeed having a game plan help to keep you calm. A trick I have found if you start to feel aggressive yourself is to raise your eyebrows. Try it. Imagine that you are really angry about something, notice how almost imeadiately your eyebrows furrow. Now raise them.

[Kwan Jang]

-Some good points have been raised. Our schools have been trying out different methods for several years now. We found that while roleplay was valuable with certain students, part of the problem lies more with how to use it without damaging certain aspects of the teacher/student relationship. Also, in role play you want to use realistic language of the aggressors. You have to be careful what you expose your studnts to, and ask yourself is this compatible with the enviroment you want to create within your school. This is not only true in regards to the children. If, for example, you have a woman who has been the victim of sexual assault in the past, the the aggressor in the role play uses the language that an actual attacker may use, you could do far more harm than good. Unfortunately, even if you ask ahead of time, odds are that many women will not share that information with you.

-As far as tactics like changinng your state by changing your physiology, such as breathing patterns, scanning the surroundings left to right (the way we are taught to read), ect., these are all helpful tools to help you gain control of the situation and act, rather than react. The key to dealing with adrenal stress is learning to use it to help enhance your abilities. That is why the mechanism exists in the first place. Unfortunately, too many people in the martial arts are ignorant of it and don't incorperate this vital factor into their training. Learn to control and use it by being aware of it and adapting. We do the adrenal circle at least once a week with every class from intermediate levels on up against the five most basic attacks the student will encounter on the street. This is really the only way that they can become and remain effective in an adrenal state.

[Mike-KSW]

Thanks for all the info guys. I'll show this to my training buddies and see how we do from there.

[shaolintiger]

hi , very interesting comments from everyone on this.

i put my students through roleplay situations on a regular basis BUT and it is a very big BUT, ONLY the people who want to do it.

as has been pointed out before, you could have students who have spent years maybe even in therapy getting over a particular hang up and to elicit an adrenal reaction i might have to perhaps use that hang up : result could be very damaging so i think it has to be a two way street.

i say to my students before embarking on adrenal stress drills that whatever i do or say is NOT personal its meant for the drill BUT if they feel that its not for them well thats fine.

another very good way to put someone under a stressfull/adrenal state is to firstly get them into an anaerobic state, say 2 mins of flat out shuttle running followed by 1 min of all out punching on the pads THEN attack them where they have to put up some kind of defence, very difficult when there is no gas left in the tank and you feel like peuking, excellent drill to promote an indomitable spirit.

as regards deep breathing to control the effects of adrenaline, i have a friend who has worked on the doors for many years and he told me that whenever he was told that a situation was developing somewhere in the club he would immediately start deep breathing as he approached the situation and he says it helped.

remember though, he had the luxury of knowing in ADVANCE that it was going to kick off, when you have some thug who suddenly is in your face threatening to rip your head off because he thinks you were looking at him the wrong way, then all bets are off.


shaolintiger

[Matt_Bernius]

Here's my take on the deep breathing thing. Your ability to spot access it depends on which of the three fight/self defense scenarios you are in:

1. Dual concent to fight (ie. sparring). Both parties square of and are prepared.
- Deep breathing and adrenal control - very possible.

2. Escalation to one party attack (you have words with someone, you don't want to fight, they do)
- Adrenal control - possible but more difficult

3. Ambush (no warning for the attack)
- Initial adrenal control EXTREMELY difficult. Basically you're in dump mode. And you are most likely not going to get out of it until you have established a point of control or domination.

-Also, in role play you want to use realistic language of the aggressors. You have to be careful what you expose your studnts to, and ask yourself is this compatible with the enviroment you want to create within your school. This is not only true in regards to the children. If, for example, you have a woman who has been the victim of sexual assault in the past, the the aggressor in the role play uses the language that an actual attacker may use, you could do far more harm than good. Unfortunately, even if you ask ahead of time, odds are that many women will not share that information with you.

Very true about the realistic langauge. We've had to stagger the RBSD classes in order to have the role playing ones occur when other classes are not in progress due to language issues.

The issues you've raised are extremely valid and show you're wealth of experience in this issue. Much of the role playing done in our programs happens in small group environments. To my knowledge we have not had any victims of abuse in the program. However I can quickly see how this could be an issue.

I'm a little less concerned about the damage to the student to student or the teacher to student relationship due to role playing (abuse victims and children excluded). I think as long as its a controlled activity, well monitored, and everyone understand and agrees to what it entails, it shouldn't cause that type of damage.

Kwan, I know I've said it before, but I really think you're one hell of a teacher. Your posts are always of the highest quality and if I'm ever in your neck of the woods, I'd love to observe or participate in one of your classes. You have a lot of great insight to share.

- Matt

[JKogas]

Doesn't any attempt at "creating" an adrenal stress situation end up being merely CONTRIVED, if it's not based on hard, full contact, vale tudo sparring?

[Matt_Bernius]

Doesn't any attempt at "creating" an adrenal stress situation end up being merely CONTRIVED, if it's not based on hard, full contact, vale tudo sparring?
Anything that happens in the classroom is ultimately contrived. The issue with even hard, full contact, vale tudo is that it's dealing with a situation where there is a concent to fight. So you're already in a "fight mental model." You'll get a dump, but it's a different type of dump than one might experience in a self defense situation. And the fighting that you will work off of the dump will be fundimentally different.

Role playing and other simulations are just that. Simulations. From a self defense perspective however that type of simulation work is very important. And it is possible, if you're working the drill correctly to simulate a good dump. Especially if you are going to work a high degree of contact off of the simulation. The human mind is a very powerful thing. And it can be used in training to replicate a lot of the feelings of dread and fear that occur in a real situation.

Is it the only type of drilling we engage in? No. You can't build a one dimensional triaining methodology for a three dimensional world. And sparring needs to be involved in that overall methodology as well.

- Matt

[JKogas]

Anything that happens in the classroom is ultimately contrived. The issue with even hard, full contact, vale tudo is that it's dealing with a situation where there is a concent to fight. So you're already in a "fight mental model." You'll get a dump, but it's a different type of dump than one might experience in a self defense situation. And the fighting that you will work off of the dump will be fundimentally different.
[/b]

I agree. Good points. I would say that it's impossible to deal with the pre-fight adrenal dump unless you're in a pre-fight situation. After the fight begins though, you're already in the water and swimming, so to speak. Then that adrenal conditioning that you become accustomed to through the vale-tudo, etc., comes into play.



Role playing and other simulations are just that. Simulations. From a self defense perspective however that type of simulation work is very important. And it is possible, if you're working the drill correctly to simulate a good dump. Especially if you are going to work a high degree of contact off of the simulation. The human mind is a very powerful thing. And it can be used in training to replicate a lot of the feelings of dread and fear that occur in a real situation.
[/b]


So, how does the dump come about by simulations? I mean, how do we replicate these feelings through simulated combat? Why don't we just DO combat?


Is it the only type of drilling we engage in? No. You can't build a one dimensional triaining methodology for a three dimensional world. And sparring needs to be involved in that overall methodology as well.
[/b]

Agreed.

[shaolintiger]

hi, vale tudo/sparring is not addressing one very important part of a fight.

that is the pre-fight ritual/woofing as they call it at rmcat.

i agree wholeheartedly that heavy sparring is a very vital piece of the puzzle but simulation/roleplay training is very necessary for the student.

getting familiar with the pre-fight ritual/pattern is vital if a student is going to be able to recognise when to "go" if a situation requires it.

sparring is not going to familiarize or teach a student this.

sparring (if done realistically) will teach the student good timing, distancing, familiarisation of what part of their chosen system works for THEM under pressure etc.

but again, sparring is reciprocal and has a certain tempo, fighting generally is one way traffic, and the person who initiates and keeps up the attack (unless the defender is VERY determined and is experienced in being on the backfoot in this situation) is usually the victor .

im sure that comment will make all of the "block and counter" people howl with indignation but thats just the way it is.



in my adrenaline scenarios i do as many things as possible to ensure adrenaline is introduced.

i will wear dark sunglasses and a hooded sweatshirt to take away the familiarity of my appearance ( it might sound stupid but it DOES work).

we will start off by working out a basic scenario ie you have just taken a parking space that i have been waiting for .

i will then start the scenario, sometimes i will just attack the student with no verbals whatsoever, sometimes i will begin by giving a barrage of obscenities aimed at the student, insulting them , challenging them to a fight etc.

during all of this i will be trying to eat their personal space (which they are monitoring with their own fence) trying to push / slap them.

i will NOT tell them when to attack, the rule is not to allow your fence to be touched more than twice.

when they do decide to attack they go for 3 seconds then the roleplay is stopped.


depending on how they handle the pre-fight "interview" they may not have to go physical.

it depends on how i feel they are dealing with it.

sometimes in the scenario training, they have to deal with ambush attacks
again this is not dealt with in sparring.

once again sparring can NOT replace scenario / roleplay training.

if that was the case the rmcat training would be just fighting , its not, a large part of the training is dedicated to pre-fight.

and remember, as soon as someone approaches you and starts insulting you etc, the fight has effectively began.

[JKogas]

hi, vale tudo/sparring is not addressing one very important part of a fight.

that is the pre-fight ritual/woofing as they call it at rmcat.


I understand. I just don't know how you can train that with any realism when you know the whole time that it's all contrived.

Well, I suppose you could stand apart from each other and start cussing each other out....but we'd probably break down and starting laughing. It just seems so contrived to do that. Maybe it's just me (or us).
In other words, when someone does that sort of thing, it has no effect on me whatsoever. Maybe it does for others though. If so, they can probably benefit from such training.



i agree wholeheartedly that heavy sparring is a very vital piece of the puzzle but simulation/roleplay training is very necessary for the student.

getting familiar with the pre-fight ritual/pattern is vital if a student is going to be able to recognise when to "go" if a situation requires it.


We do some basic variations of this from time to time. Doesn't seem to really warrant a whole lot of training time however. Again, perhaps this is just me. I prefer just to get it on, so to speak.



sparring is not going to familiarize or teach a student this.


That really depends though on the individuals to an extent I think. When we come out at the opening bell, you'd better believe that we know when it's on. Of course I realize that THAT event is different from the pre-fight event because the possibility exists for avoidance of any escalation toward violence in that regard.

Avoidance is something that we always preach. After a certain point in one's training, it's pretty easy to "just walk away" because you don't feel that you have anything to prove. We just leave before sh*t starts. When it's UNavoidable however, we find ourselves here again at the opening bell, ready to go, if you see my point.

But as I mentioned, we have a pre-fight structure and teach to maintain critical distance, all important aspects of the sd matrix.



sparring (if done realistically) will teach the student good timing, distancing, familiarisation of what part of their chosen system works for THEM under pressure etc.


Absolutely.




but again, sparring is reciprocal and has a certain tempo, fighting generally is one way traffic, and the person who initiates and keeps up the attack (unless the defender is VERY determined and is experienced in being on the backfoot in this situation) is usually the victor .


Experienced fighters develop a certain poise and an understanding of handling pressure. They understand how to "ride the storm out". This comes with a lot of experience training vale tudo/NHB.

You could have sucker punch drills, but those aren't very realistic unless you don't forewarn your students prior to the session. But that isn't ideal either for some fairly obvious reasons. If you DO forewarn them, then everyone arrives and is paranoid and waiting for any such attacks. Again not very realistic.

I suppose I'm just having a hard time seeing where alot of this becomes realistic. I'm not KNOCKING it mind you...just trying to examine it from all sides.



in my adrenaline scenarios i do as many things as possible to ensure adrenaline is introduced.

i will wear dark sunglasses and a hooded sweatshirt to take away the familiarity of my appearance ( it might sound stupid but it DOES work).

we will start off by working out a basic scenario ie you have just taken a parking space that i have been waiting for .


Do you actually go to parking lots? If so, do your partners/students know this is going to happen before hand? If not, do you follow them around to see where they end up going? How do you set training like this up? With my luck, I'd follow someone to a shopping mall where my "mark" would spend all day before coming back out to his/her car.



i will then start the scenario, sometimes i will just attack the student with no verbals whatsoever...


Attack them with shots intended to land and with full power? Have you never had a gun pulled on you? A knife? WOW what a scenario. I gotta think that takes a lot of work to set up.


, sometimes i will begin by giving a barrage of obscenities aimed at the student, insulting them , challenging them to a fight etc.


If they don't recognize you, they'd probably think you were crazy, pull out some pepper spray and hose you down REAL good, lol. Otherwise it's the "opening bell to begin round one" if you know what I mean.



during all of this i will be trying to eat their personal space (which they are monitoring with their own fence) trying to push / slap them.


There again is the opening bell. If a fighter doesn't know to "go" by that point, they're not fighters. But that's just me. I'm a little more aggressive than many perhaps.


i will NOT tell them when to attack, the rule is not to allow your fence to be touched more than twice.


Why not just once?



when they do decide to attack they go for 3 seconds then the roleplay is stopped.


You HOPE anyway, lol.



depending on how they handle the pre-fight "interview" they may not have to go physical.


Wouldn't that be THEIR choice?



sometimes in the scenario training, they have to deal with ambush attacks
again this is not dealt with in sparring.


Right. That's a matter of maintaining basic awareness of one's environment, which should be fundamentals preached from the first night on.

But again, how do you set up the ambush? That concerns me just a tad bit really for reasons I can't fully put my finger on. Maybe it's the intrusion into personal space. Maybe it's the desire to allow my students to live their lives away from the gym. And maybe still it's my belief that my students can have the wherewithall to deal with pressure from the toughening that occurs through alive and athletic training.

I mean to say, if they can't handle the pressure, they can't handle the pressure and no amount of "scenario training" will fill in the missing pieces.


once again sparring can NOT replace scenario / roleplay training.


But you cannot POSSIBLY cover every scenario can you? I mean, they're really endless aren't they (in variety)? What's next, the scenario of being attacked while wading in a pool with a swimming ring on? If so, should my attackers all be wearing the swimming rings as well?

I'm just kidding here (slightly), but you see what I mean surely.



if that was the case the rmcat training would be just fighting , its not, a large part of the training is dedicated to pre-fight.


Oh I understand your points. I suppose I just don't see the need to put so much time and commitment into things which truly can only be contrived to begin with. After all, if the skill is there, it's there. Fighters trained to fight in my opinion, are able to fight at a moments notice because it just "blinks on" when you need it. All of the experience, all of the pressure and intensity in training......all comes rushing right back at you instantly. If (and that's the biggie) it's done right. AT least this has been OUR experience.



and remember, as soon as someone approaches you and starts insulting you etc, the fight has effectively began.

I tend to think most people realize this one. That should be a no-brainer, as I think a LOT of self defense is. After all, this isn't rocket science we're talking about here. Sometimes people in the SD community fall into the trap of trying to "build the better mousetrap", if you know what I mean.


Good training to you!


-John

[SoKKlab]

I understand. I just don't know how you can train that with any realism when you know the whole time that it's all contrived.


You watch Movies at the Cinema Right?

So when you watch a really great movie you find yourself forgetting that it's a movie and getting sucked in to the story and not remembering that somebody actually placed those shots and that they are only actors and some poor schlep sat down and typed draft after draft of the screenplay.

This scenario requires an imagination and 'suspension of disbelief', whether that is a 'willing suspension of disbelief' or not...

Any meaningful scenario training should have the same elements needed for great story-telling, in that you are 'Involved' in the proceedings to the point where your disbelief is suspended.

Now saying that, I've never really seen or experienced any decent scenario training and yes, I'd probably crack up if myself and a training partner started cursing each other, but that's apparently not how you do it.

At this point JKogas I'd suggest that you head over to SDF, but I just remembered that you were banned, but that site is well worth reading if you want some good information on the subject.

[JKogas]

You watch Movies at the Cinema Right?


So when you watch a really great movie you find yourself forgetting that it's a movie and getting sucked in to the story and not remembering that somebody actually placed those shots and that they are only actors and some poor schlep sat down and typed draft after draft of the screenplay.


I still know it's a movie though. I find it very hard to be sucked into just any movie thats playing as well. Perhaps that's why scenario training just doesn't pull any triggers.


This scenario requires an imagination and 'suspension of disbelief', whether that is a 'willing suspension of disbelief' or not...

Any meaningful scenario training should have the same elements needed for great story-telling, in that you are 'Involved' in the proceedings to the point where your disbelief is suspended.


Again, I realize your point and where you're coming from. But honestly, after having to deal with tough, combat athletes and the constant pressure that they can induce, someone attempting to "rattle my cage" just isn't going to have the same effect as it might someone who just came from his/her hour per week of TKD class. See my point?


At this point JKogas I'd suggest that you head over to SDF, but I just remembered that you were banned, but that site is well worth reading if you want some good information on the subject.



You remember me?? I must have made an impression. I bet they're still talking about me over there (j/k).

Amazing that a bunch of "street tough combat artists" get so pissy when you rattle THEIR cages a little huh? Tough indeed. Boy do they completely miss the irony or WHAT?!!

As an afterthought, perhaps I can see where THEY might benefit from adrenaline and scenario trainining -- considering how they got so bent out of shape because I called one of them paranoid. Isn't that a hoot? A type-written WORD, caused them to get their panties in a knot. Unbelievable.

What's even more ironic is that, I was on an "empty-hand" forum and do you know what all of their responses were (and they were nearly identical)? You could basically boil it all down to; "just shoot 'em".

Here they were telling me to pack guns (and probably no less than 7 knives). The next step would be for me to not leave the house unless I was wearing full plate mail armor. I mean my GOD, how much more paranoid CAN you get?

Aside from that however lies the fact that they were telling ME to use weaponry on a forum about "what to do when you're not packing" or something like that.

Un-REAL bunch of men who never grew up emotionally and are still the scared little kids that they always were. Those guys could have benefited from a REAL athletic environment where they could have outgrown some of that paranoia.

Oh well....there are probably guys like that right here on THIS forum as well, right? Lol



-John

[SoKKlab]

I still know it's a movie though. I find it very hard to be sucked into just any movie thats playing as well. Perhaps that's why scenario training just doesn't pull any triggers.

Not just ANY movie, but a really great one.

Again, I realize your point and where you're coming from. But honestly, after having to deal with tough, combat athletes and the constant pressure that they can induce, someone attempting to "rattle my cage" just isn't going to have the same effect as it might someone who just came from his/her hour per week of TKD class. See my point?

Yes, I train with and against Combat Athletes myself and always have done. I can still see the value of other forms of training though. No one thing has all the answers.


You remember me?? I must have made an impression. I bet they're still talking about me over there (j/k).

Amazing that a bunch of "street tough combat artists" get so pissy when you rattle THEIR cages a little huh? Tough indeed.


Don't really want to get into that. There are some very experienced people over there who would surprise you greatly with their toughness and their Combat Athleticism, who all train the way you do, it's just that you didn't appear to understand their rationalle and they weren't willing to listen to yours. C'est La Vie.

[Matt_Bernius]

Hey John,

I suppose I just don't see the need to put so much time and commitment into things which truly can only be contrived to begin with. After all, if the skill is there, it's there. Fighters trained to fight in my opinion, are able to fight at a moments notice because it just "blinks on" when you need it. All of the experience, all of the pressure and intensity in training......all comes rushing right back at you instantly. If (and that's the biggie) it's done right. AT least this has been OUR experience.

I tend to think most people realize this one. That should be a no-brainer, as I think a LOT of self defense is. After all, this isn't rocket science we're talking about here. Sometimes people in the SD community fall into the trap of trying to "build the better mousetrap", if you know what I mean.

But the well documented problem is that in pressure situations, when you're not expecting a confrontation, things don't always blink on. Read the accounts of various trained professionals, from soldiers to police officers. Ther are numerous cases where they are subjected to an unexpected attack and they temporarily lose the ability to respond. We had a case here in Rochester recently where a cop called a supsicious looking kid over to talk to him. The cop, in a police car, watch as the kid produced a handgun and, at point blank range, pulled the trigger three times at head level. By luck (or an act of God) the gun jammed three times. At this point the kid began to run away. It was only at this point that the cop was able to begin to react to the situation.

The officer talks about how he saw the entire thing in slow montion. And the entire time his only reaction is "I can't believe this is happening. This can't be happening." He also commented that nothing in his training perpared him for that moment.

I realize that you would argue that it is impossible to simulate this type of scenario in a class room. It is. But, as I posted earlier, everything in the class room is a simulation. And if we can even begin to address these issues then we're better preparing our students. I can't speak for all reality based self defense programs, but Blauer's material is primarily focused on converting that flinch, that moment that the adrenaline hits your system into action. That's why I like it. Its a supliment to my existing training, not a replacement system. He doesn't claim to teach you techniques that will win in the street. It's not about the Anti-Grapple. It's about understanding what goes into a conflict and what you're body's reaction is.

There are a lot of "no-brainer" aspects to self defense. But much like common sense and aliveness in training, it's the simple concepts that people trip over the most often. Nothing Matt Thorton has talked about is particulary revolutionary (though I consider him a revolutionary individual). And when you get beyond some of the "intellectual property", nothing Blauer is stating is particularly revolutionary either (though I also consider him to be a revolutionary individual). But what's clear is that the information that they are presenting, for one reason or another, has not been included in most of the training that martial artist have been doing for the last few decades.

- Matt

[JKogas]

Not just ANY movie, but a really great one.

Yes, I train with and against Combat Athletes myself and always have done. I can still see the value of other forms of training though. No one thing has all the answers.



Of course not but it's also unrealistic to think that one CAN find all the answers or perhaps, to even SEEK for all the answers. At some point you've just got to have the willingness to train harder than everyone else and then, to take your chances "on the street". To get caught up in trying to cover all the bases CAN become a trap in itself.

Bear in mind that I'm not saying it's right or wrong to do scenario training. I'm just sharing my point of view.



Don't really want to get into that. There are some very experienced people over there who would surprise you greatly with their toughness and their Combat Athleticism, who all train the way you do, it's just that you didn't appear to understand their rationale and they weren't willing to listen to yours. C'est La Vie.

Fair enough, although I would like to clarify that I DID understand their rationale. I did and DO. But that's all water under the bridge now.


But the well documented problem is that in pressure situations, when you're not expecting a confrontation, things don't always blink on. Read the accounts of various trained professionals, from soldiers to police officers. Ther are numerous cases where they are subjected to an unexpected attack and they temporarily lose the ability to respond. We had a case here in Rochester recently where a cop called a supsicious looking kid over to talk to him. The cop, in a police car, watch as the kid produced a handgun and, at point blank range, pulled the trigger three times at head level. By luck (or an act of God) the gun jammed three times. At this point the kid began to run away. It was only at this point that the cop was able to begin to react to the situation.



I've had cops training with me. One particular was involved in three separate incidents within a month and a half period of time. He is a combat athlete and has been one most of his life (having wrestled, etc., through his time in school). This officer never participated in "adrenal stress conditioning", but he was able to perform without much any problem at all, simply because resistance from people is "just another day at the office".

Truthfully, we can't know that adrenal stress conditioning would have helped the officer in your story. We can't honestly ever know that because each situation is going to be different. I'm betting that having a REAL "bad guy" put a gun to someone's face for real, would unnerve anyone -- regardless of how many hours of scenario training that they've been through.

I do however, understand the point you're making. But wouldn't there exist a difference between someone putting a gun to your head, compared to someone talking tough and giving you the old interview? I think so because it's happened to me too many times.

Had one guy follow me into my parking lot a work one dark winter morning around 6:30. He was pissed because I didn't use my blinker or something (fair enough, although I always try to use common courtesy on the road). It didn't warrant him following me all the way to work however. Needless to say, I was pretty pissed off myself when I got out of my car. We confronted each other and there were a few choice words exchanged -- but the whole time I was "ready to go" -- adrenaline pumping and everything. Had I done a great deal of scenario training or adrenal stress conditioning? NO.

But as I've said, perhaps it's just me. I just don't feel that I personally NEED any of that, nor do most of the guys that I know who train the same way. I personally feel that it's an example of mental masturbation.

I'm not KNOCKING it however because I've not done a great deal of it. Just so you know. Perhaps I'll check into Peyton Quinn's video on the subject to get a better example of his approach. I've considered doing that for some time.

This might even be a good place to talk about the differences between "self-defense" and "self-preservation"!


I realize that you would argue that it is impossible to simulate this type of scenario in a class room. It is. But, as I posted earlier, everything in the class room is a simulation. And if we can even begin to address these issues then we're better preparing our students. I can't speak for all reality based self defense programs, but Blauer's material is primarily focused on converting that flinch, that moment that the adrenaline hits your system into action. That's why I like it. Its a supliment to my existing training, not a replacement system. He doesn't claim to teach you techniques that will win in the street. It's not about the Anti-Grapple. It's about understanding what goes into a conflict and what you're body's reaction is.


I like Blauer. That "Spear" is something that is a very useful tool out of the boxing structure. We do something very similar to that.

Again, let it be known that I'm not knocking this type of training.



There are a lot of "no-brainer" aspects to self defense. But much like common sense and aliveness in training, it's the simple concepts that people trip over the most often. Nothing Matt Thorton has talked about is particulary revolutionary (though I consider him a revolutionary individual). And when you get beyond some of the "intellectual property", nothing Blauer is stating is particularly revolutionary either (though I also consider him to be a revolutionary individual). But what's clear is that the information that they are presenting, for one reason or another, has not been included in most of the training that martial artist have been doing for the last few decades.



Agreed.


Cheers!


-John

[Matt_Bernius]

John,

Never thought you were directly knocking the training. Different strokes for different folks. And I didn't mean to suggest that simulation training would have helped the police office in that situation. Still I like the idea with arming people with the most data and experience possible. In recent years my understanding is that more forces have been employing simulation training. Can it cover everything? No. But again, every little bit helps.

Also we're all wired differently. I have a friend from college who it's clear was genetically predisposed for fighting and combat. He did everything from bouncing to bounty hunting. And he's someone who could process adrenaline extremely well. In every way he's the antithesis of me. Personally, I have a tough time managing an adrenal reaction. And for me Blauer's stuff has really helped.

As for you're car story, I think the one thing to note is that by the time you were out of the car you were mental prepared for the conflict. My take, actually Blauer's, is that a lot of people would spend the car ride denying that this was happening. And so by the time they go out of the car they would already be in a victim mind set. Or they simply wouldn't be prepared to take control of the situation.

For me, a good self defense program is about:
1. Getting people to recognize and trust thier gut reactions.
2. Getting people aware that in a confrontation you're going to have an adrenal dump.
3. Getting people used to operating with that dump.
4. Giving them a bunch of ideas (not necessarily techniques... though at the end of the day there need to be some technqiues) to get them out of the conflict in one peice.

I think we can all agree that there are often different paths up to the same peak. Full contact sparring I think addresses aspects 3 & 4 of that list (and 2 as well). For someone who is into the path of sparring, is out there activly learning, and has an open mind they can learn 1 & 2 on their own.

For those who are not necessarily on that path things like simulation training can be used as well. A lot of us haven't gotten into fights or elevated confrontations. In my life I've only been in one (prior to my exposure to Blauer). I did ok (wasn't hurt, but in retrospect I could have handled it a lot better). My exposure to Blauer's material helped me personally find a lot of the answers I was looking for. I think it's an excellent way to get a timid individual the begin to be able to practice verbal and mental self defense. And it lends itself to progressive training (ending up at potentially full on sparring or counter attacks).

- Matt

[Avidaniel]

I was thinking and I came across the fact that the easiest theater in which you could simulate some kind of adrenaline rush would be when participating in a sport you suck but taking the competition quite seriously. Perhaps this adrenaline rush wont be as harsh but once you get accostumed to this smaller amount you then can move on. The good thing is that this scenario is much easier to participate in. To help take the competition seriously be sure to have some kind of audience nearby to add atleast a little pressure.