My Dumb Question for the Week #3

[Mrs Owt]

Welcome back to Candy's Dumb Newbie Question of the Week.

At this stage of the game (obviously a newbie!!) I am bombarded with new techniques. I am finding some suit my size very nicely but some are just flipping impossible. Will there be some techniques that I will never master unless I am sparring someone my own size (which hasn't happened yet) or smaller (not bloody likely)? Or should I be able to use most techniques on all sizes of people and the ability to do so is just something that will come with practice?

Thanks again for your patience with my inexperience. :)

[Kogusoku]

As a beginner, you shouldn't be bombarded with techniques right away, you should be taught a few basic techniques and be drilled in them until you know them forwards, backwards, sideways, any which way. At the same time you should be shown other techniques by your seniors, but not taught how to do them until you are fully confident in your abilities to perform the basics.

If you feel that you are out of your depth, be honest and tell your instructor or senior that you aren't ready for those techniques yet.

[YODA]

Advanced techniques are basics performed at a high level. Never forget that. Looks at what people use to win MMA and BJJ fights with. You can narrow it down to about 6 techniques. All the fancy variations are to help you maybe see different entries into the same moves or to keep impatient students happy.

Armbar
Kimura
Keylock
Rear choke
Front choke
Triangle
Knee bar
Heel hook
Achilles lock

You don't really need anything else. But you can spend 10 - years learning the armbar :D

[Ikken Hisatsu]

what he said. why is muay thai so effective? only a few moves. why did kimura kick so much ass? he took a couple of throws and locks and practiced them 9 hours a day. fear the man who has done one technique 10,000 times more than the man who has done 10,000 techniques once.

[Mrs Owt]

"Advanced techniques are basics performed at a high level." - YODA
"All the fancy variations are to help you maybe see different entries into the same moves" - YODA

Ah, I think I get it. It isn't that the technique is too "fancy" but that the technician doesn't have the basics yet. :) So once I get to recognize the openings and appropriate time for each technique the more complicated variations of basics will seem less awkward - no?

"As a beginner, you shouldn't be bombarded with techniques right away, you should be taught a few basic techniques and be drilled in them until you know them forwards, backwards, sideways, any which way." - Gunyo Kogusoku

I suppose you are right here, but in a large class with a real mix of skill levels individual attention like that is impossible. I suppose it is really up to me to take those basic techniques and drill them myself, outside of class. And I think YODA is correct, very often the variations are taught to keep students from getting bored. Many people who think they have the technique would get annoyed if forced to practice it ad nauseum. In a while - when they actually get the technique right, they'll slap themselves on the head and realise they didn't actually "have it" earlier. I know I have already done that in my new class. Thought I was reviewing stuff I had learned earlier but realised that it still needed LOTS of work.:D

Thanks everyone! :)

[Kogusoku]

Just be sure that you know your basics inside and out. They are your foundation, your bedrock. Without a proper foundation, a building cannot be constructed safely and it's the same with learning a martial art - You learn the basics/foundations and build up from there. And as Yoda has said, the advanced techniques are just the basics performed at a high level.

Have you ever heard of the Cat and the Fox by the Brothers Grimm? It underlines the principle in combative martial arts that "less is more".


The Fox and the Cat

Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm

It happened that the cat met Mr. Fox in the woods. She thought, "He is intelligent and well experienced, and is highly regarded in the world," so she spoke to him in a friendly manner, "Good-day, my dear Mr. Fox. How is it going? How are you? How are you getting by in these hard times?"

The fox, filled with arrogance, examined the cat from head to feet, and for a long time did not know whether he should give an answer. At last he said, "Oh, you poor beard-licker, you speckled fool, you hungry mouse hunter, what are you thinking? Have you the nerve to ask how I am doing? What do you know? How many tricks do you understand?"

"I understand only one," answered the cat, modestly.

"What kind of a trick is it?" asked the fox.

"When the dogs are chasing me, I can jump into a tree and save myself."

"Is that all?" said the fox. "I am master of a hundred tricks, and in addition to that I have a sackful of cunning. I feel sorry for you. Come with me, and I will teach you how one escapes from the dogs."

Just then a hunter came by with four dogs. The cat jumped nimbly up a tree, and sat down at its top, where the branches and foliage completely hid her.

"Untie your sack, Mr. Fox, untie your sack," the cat shouted to him, but the dogs had already seized him, and were holding him fast.

"Oh, Mr. Fox," shouted the cat. "You and your hundred tricks are left in the lurch. If you had been able to climb like I can, you would not have lost your life."

[Kwajman]

Mrs. Owt, of all the things I've learned over 4 years in MA's, size doesn't matter much to me. I look at age, size, weight, strength, speed, experience, and to me strength and speed are the two that seem to hinder me the most. I'm actually pretty strong, but my speed keeps me from doing some of the kicks and jumps that, while not really used in sparring, might keep me from grading higher in rank.

[shootodog]

mrs. owt, learn as many techniques as you can. when the time comes, you may be able to use them. there is a firm belief that i have, use only what you can use, the rest is there "just in case you can use them". invest in loss when you spar. try all the techniques out and learn what works for you. in the end, you'll end up with a more compact repertoire. one that you find easy to use and apply.

at our grappling class, we probably go through/ learn at least 10 submissions a session. i find that, while all are useful and pretty, i only use probably a fifth of these.

[RichieRich]

I know grappling is different, but I don't need the redundancy of multiple techniques... Which one works best..? okay .. get good at that one then!

[shootodog]

I know grappling is different, but I don't need the redundancy of multiple techniques... Which one works best..? okay .. get good at that one then!

er...it's like this: position then submission, counter then submission, counter to the counter then submission, counter to the counter to the counter....so forth and so on.

[RichieRich]

er...it's like this: position then submission, counter then submission, counter to the counter then submission, counter to the counter to the counter....so forth and so on.

I think more in terms of "Drop them and move on", "Drop him and his buddy and move on.." My one beef with grappling is its not really scalable to multiple attackers. Last thing you need is his best buddy kicking you as you roll around..

[Mrs Owt]

I think more in terms of "Drop them and move on", "Drop him and his buddy and move on.." My one beef with grappling is its not really scalable to multiple attackers. Last thing you need is his best buddy kicking you as you roll around..
Arrgghhh! Not again. Yes grappling is not perfect. Drop it and move on - to quote yourself. ;)

Nothing is perfect, that is why lots of people cross train.

[RichieRich]

Hmm, we've got a little off course. My point is really that your not richer by having 100 solutions to one problem - wouldn't it be better to have ONE REALLY GOOD SOLUTION (maybe the arm bar for you grappler folks) - I was trying to acknowledge that for grappling it may be at bit different, but maybe it isn't - most grapplers could get an arm bar against someone who's clueless, right?

I guess we start getting into the "streamlined" vs complete systems debate. I love what the guys at SBG do - take what works, discard the rest. You'll become a pareto efficient fighter that way, although perhaps NOT a complete martial artist. Motivation for learning factors in I guess.

I guess I re-opened a can of "Grappling vs.. something" worms I didn't know existed!

[Aegis]

Just my 2 pence before I go out:

Grappling does not necessarily mean taking someone to the floor and pounding him there.

[Cyrax]

I have noticed that everyone I have randoried with
are more flexible in some areas....so with some people
you must put a little effort in to get certain techniques...

ex: some people are hyper-flexible....or they are double jointed and
such...

But usually if someone is not tapping it is because the technique
is not done properly...

[shootodog]

I think more in terms of "Drop them and move on", "Drop him and his buddy and move on.." My one beef with grappling is its not really scalable to multiple attackers. Last thing you need is his best buddy kicking you as you roll around..

ok richie rich, i agree. but i was talking about the mode in which we learned (i.e. our lesson plan/ syllabus). of you ask me how to get through multiple opponents, i'd say, pull out my bastons or knives and start cutting my way out. or if i'm unarmed, i think i have enough filipino kickboxing (yaw yan) and boxing skills to create an opening big enough for me to run through. hell, sagasa kickboxing dictates that you run through them anyway (causing as much damage to the other person as you go through. or we could go clos equarters with jailhouse 52 or mongoose. but that's beside the point, we're talking about groundfighting here.

[RichieRich]

ok richie rich, i agree. but i was talking about the mode in which we learned (i.e. our lesson plan/ syllabus). of you ask me how to get through multiple opponents, i'd say, pull out my bastons or knives and start cutting my way out. or if i'm unarmed, i think i have enough filipino kickboxing (yaw yan) and boxing skills to create an opening big enough for me to run through. hell, sagasa kickboxing dictates that you run through them anyway (causing as much damage to the other person as you go through. or we could go clos equarters with jailhouse 52 or mongoose. but that's beside the point, we're talking about groundfighting here.

I like to meander way off topic. Sorry!

[mikelw]

How about the guillotine...yoda left that one out.

[Dropbear]

back to the original post..

if you're new, and you're trying to throw people then I bet you're having trouble with your unbalances.... anyone who has done judo would know that throws are impossible without the correct unbalance (Kuzushi)..

when you throw a person who is taller and heavier than you, it's *NOT* a strength on strength battle - rob them of their balance and then throw.. you will be directing the way you want them to fall, not trying to bench press them..


I hope that makes sense..