Women in the FMA

[Pat OMalley]

I have been asked this question many times over the years and have even posted this on another forum many years ago, It cause a lot of heated discussions but what the hell, here we go again.

Do you think that the woman in the FMA should be treated any different than the men when it comes to testing their skills and do you think that a male and a female of equal skill can and should sparr their skills in order to test each other.
Do you also feel that when it comes to events such as the WEKAF world championships that their should be na event were the males and females compete on an equal standing?

I leave it open to you, I will pop back later after the wife gives me a dam good stick bashing for asking this question again. ;)


Mabuhay


Pat.

[JohnnyX]

Do males and females compete on an equal standing in any other MA?

[Pat OMalley]

Do males and females compete on an equal standing in any other MA?

Maybe not, but does that mean they should not, also bearing in mind that many in the FMA beleive that the weapon becomes an equaliser against an opponent should it not also be true that the weapon should also become an equaliser against the gender and therefore should not both males and females compete on an equal standing in FMA competition if it is true that the weapon becomes an equaliser that is? :confused:

[JohnnyX]

Without sounding too sexist, and yes, I know that it''s the 21st century. But, women are still the 'fairer sex'. Admittedly, the gap is closing. However there is still a gap.

Oh my God! What did I just say? :eek:

[RichieRich]

See the "can a woman beat a man" thread - same type of deal.

[Pat OMalley]

See the "can a woman beat a man" thread - same type of deal.

where abouts on the forum is that then, I would like to see that.

[Pat OMalley]

Without sounding too sexist, and yes, I know that it''s the 21st century. But, women are still the 'fairer sex'. Admittedly, the gap is closing. However there is still a gap.

Oh my God! What did I just say? :eek:

Oooooh I hope you do martial arts.

No really, I feel when it comes to the FMA women can stand side by side with men.

When I teach my female stidents I expect the same from them as from everyone.

[RichieRich]

er, here, I think
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15047
Sorry I don't do clever linky things...!

[JohnnyX]

Oooooh I hope you do martial arts.

No really, I feel when it comes to the FMA women can stand side by side with men.

When I teach my female stidents I expect the same from them as from everyone.

I just think that there is a flaw somewhere in your reasoning.

[Tika]

Weight classes would be tough if you combined men and women.... Women tend to have higher body fat percentages, and can be a lot shorter and not as strong as men of the same weight....I think.....

In training and testing I dont see a problem with partnering men with women, but in competition, I don think its 'fair'.

[JohnnyX]

Thanks Tika,

That's the flaw I was thinking about above. :)

[Tika]

Anytime Johnny.... ;)

[KickChick]

Hi there Pat ... I do hope your wife didn't bash you up too badly! ;)

Since I am unfamiliar with the World Eskrima Kali Arnis Federation's rules for tournament I looked them up ---> http://www.bandalan.com/wekafrules.htm#Divisions


You'll notice of course that weight classes are indeed different as with other ma tournies but age divisions are the same for both

Seems pretty fair to me as it should be. :)

[Diego_Vega]

Women can't compete against men on and "equal basis", such as you would have in a sporting tournament and expect to win. You need muscle for speed and power, and pound for pound, women just don't have as much as men. I could be wrong. How have women fared against men in fencing? which is a weapons sport and definitely more finesse oriented. Take it a step further, how have women done against men in a sport like target shooting? This doesn't need speed or strength at all, bur rather hand-eye co-ordination. Does a man's supposed superior sense of spacial awareness carry over as an advantage for this?

So, to answer your question, yes, I'd have the women spar against men, to improve them as martial artists. But I'd be really surprized if any of them actually dominated a male partner intent on winning.

[Tika]

So, to answer your question, yes, I'd have the women spar against men, to improve them as martial artists. But I'd be really surprized if any of them actually dominated a male partner intent on winning.

Dont be too surprised. When I was competing in World Oyama Karate tournaments I always got sent to the guys group, because there were not any females in my rank or age group, and I never finished worse then second place. I admit that there is major disparity... but be carefull not to generalize.

[KickChick]

This doesn't need speed or strength at all, bur rather hand-eye co-ordination. Does a man's supposed superior sense of spacial awareness carry over as an advantage for this?

And I thought that women naturally have better hand eye coordination :D :woo:

[juramentado]

This is a somewhat controversial topic and one that's fraught with danger so here goes..

*puts on flamesuit

I think that men and women can compete in FMA and any other sport activity that requires strength and power would be if the competition events are organized according to weight classes.

Although Tika1980 has a point about women having higher body fat percentage than men, I think this difference can be wittled down to insignificance by proper training. Not that women don't train properly; I mean it's entirely possible to train specifically to tip the fat percentages.

* keeps flamesuit on, just in case

[Pat OMalley]

Mmmm, intersting responces, But with most I beg to differ and do this from expeariance.
In the early days of FMA competition in Britain and Europe, their were not enough women participating to warrent a female division so the women competed on an equal level to great success.
For instance, a 13 year old girl entered the lightweight division at the WEKAF British championships back in 1994 and won 2nd place against the Men. This was all down to the fact that she had more skil and determination than the men and even at the tender age of 13 she wanted to rpove a point.

Another example is my wife (the boss) she is the only female mamber of the Black Eagle Society (akin to the Dog Brothers) and she quite happily holds her own against the guys, most of who are much bigger and weigh a lot more. As a matter of fact at one meeting she managed to break my nose and two teeth. The bout went the full 3 minutes and I was is much pain.
(I still dont understand why I married her after that?) Only joking my dear.

I am a firm beleiver in that fact that FMA with its weapons base can and does make the practitioner rely soley on skill and technique as opposed to strength as in som other MA systems, the weapon if used correctly with skill and knowldge can and does pay no head to size, weight or gender, I have expearianced this first hand and I train my women the same as I train my men.

So much so when they are testing for their instructor grades they have to fight them men and women on an equal basis showing that skill and determination can far out weigh size and gender. By the way they are expected to fight with no rules, limited armour with the weapons and no armour or protection in the empty hand combat.

I may be wrong, but from personal expeariance so far I feel I am right.


Mabuhay


Pat :Angel:

[RichieRich]

And I thought that women naturally have better hand eye coordination :D :woo:

Take a sport that's pure co-ordination with litte power adavantage - billiards or pool - the top 100 men can beat the best woman.

[Mrs Owt]

As a matter of fact at one meeting she managed to break my nose and two teeth. The bout went the full 3 minutes and I was is much pain.
(I still dont understand why I married her after that?) Only joking my dear.

I am a firm beleiver in that fact that FMA with its weapons base can and does make the practitioner rely soley on skill and technique as opposed to strength as in som other MA systems, the weapon if used correctly with skill and knowldge can and does pay no head to size, weight or gender, I have expearianced this first hand and I train my women the same as I train my men.



You probably married because you knew you would be well-protected with her around! :D :D

But seriously, I have study arnis for a bit and have done a fair share of sparring with sticks. I have seen very pathetic women and very pathetic men get the tar beaten out of them and I have seen women just go to town on very skilled and accomplished men. I do think FMA levels the playing field somewhat when it comes to MA precisely because of the weapons aspect.

I think what is comes down to in FMA is intent and determination. When I spar with sticks (and I suck, believe me) sometimes I can win purely because I go in there not thinking "on no, I am just a girl and they are all so much bigger and stronger than I am" as I sometimes do in a karate sparring match or in my BJJ class. When I have a stick, or two (better! :) ) in my hand I feel that I am playing on par with the guys. Speed, skill and determination make far more difference in this kind of exercise than height, weight and brute strength.

Again, I am no expert, just my experience. ;)

[Pat OMalley]

Take a sport that's pure co-ordination with litte power adavantage - billiards or pool - the top 100 men can beat the best woman.

Lets be honest here, when it comes to sports like Billiards and Pool, men spend more time practicing these sports near the bar whilst women tend to do more intersting sports like getting the guys to pay for the drinks.

Men spend more time in Bars practicing these type of sports, if women done the same the balance would even out.

[Tika]

My response was too general I think. When you throw weapons in the mix, the size and strength factor isnt as huge. I have to start reading the forum area where the thread was started and finding out more about hte style before I post :D....

[RichieRich]

Lets be honest here, when it comes to sports like Billiards and Pool, men spend more time practicing these sports near the bar whilst women tend to do more intersting sports like getting the guys to pay for the drinks.

Men spend more time in Bars practicing these type of sports, if women done the same the balance would even out.

that's nonsence. The pro's on both tours aren't exactly getting drunk every night whilct practicing, are they. They have drill just like we do and practice with other top tier practitioners. You've not really described the "focused pool professional" in your comments.

[Diego_Vega]

that's nonsence. The pro's on both tours aren't exactly getting drunk every night whilct practicing, are they. They have drill just like we do and practice with other top tier practitioners. You've not really described the "focused pool professional" in your comments.

Well, there are different types of pool games. For something like 8 ball or especially 9 ball, the break makes a big difference and power is what you need for a good break. (ala Django Bustamente or Shannon Daulton) For something like snooker....? I have no idea. (Don't understand it at all) However Jeanette Lee did enter a men's tournament one year and shockingly defeated some men along the way, including our own very talented Warren Kiamco. Luckily she went to Manila and was soundly trashed by Efren Bata Reyes to preserve one bastion of Filipino manhood.

As for comments being "general" about topics like this, well, more often than not those are the accurate ones overall. There will always be exceptions to the rule. Weapons may be an equalizer to an extent, but only to an extent. A blunt weapon needs power to damage and speed to deliver (and you need power for speed) and accuracy to make contact. An edged weapons needs much less power. Empty hands? I'd hate to see Laila Ali in the ring against somebody like Fernando Vargas or Lucia Rijker against Richardo Mayorga.

[chenstyle44]

HI,
My philosophy in training is geared more towards surviving than looking awesome, however, I have been known to do the flowery stepping under the arm throw type stuff.
I also am of the idea that the individual is the best judge when it comes whether or not they want to spar, grapple, fight full contact, or survive an altercation.
If a woman wants to test her skills and whether or not they could be used to survive a fight with a man than thats her prerogative. I think having a lot of air time dedicated to making a controversy about it is a waste of time and breath. That being said. Im a hypocrite!!!
:p :p :p :p :p

[Gryphon Hall]

Mmmm, intersting responces, But with most I beg to differ and do this from expeariance.

I too would like to share my experience. Please bear in mind that unless we can come up with some figures, we will never really know if women can consistenly compete against men, in a simulated or a real fight. However I think that we can safely abandon the idea that "women will necessarily have the disadvantage".

I have been into escrima, albeit informally, since I was five years old. I had sparred with as many men as I can and I have held my own. More than a year ago, I thought that I would "teach" my girl friend some arnis as a way of keeping fit for her and also as a means of self-defence.

Starting off, I must admit I was a bit smug about my position as guro to my GF. We went through some numerada, teaching her how to swing to hit and then how to block. When I thought she had it pretty much okay (actually, I thought she was rank amateur), I told her to swing at me any which way she liked and I will defend. I was confident, having had to use my skills to defend myself on a number of occassions.

Her initial swings were easily blocked and countered, and she was getting discouraged. Then I remembered that she played tennis, so I said in sudden inspiration to pretend that whatever target she wants to hit, pretend it is a tennis ball and hit it. Shortly after that, I stood there in my best "at-ready" conflict position and said "Go!"

As a matter of fact at one meeting she managed to break my nose and two teeth. The bout went the full 3 minutes and I was is much pain.

One can guess that the story ends with me getting clobbered. And one will guess rightly. She sidestepped each of my attacks and hit the nearest target (my knuckles) very, very hard. When she had pity on me and stopped targeting my knuckles, she targeted my elbows. I threw in the towel 21 bruises and zero ego later.

Later, I had my brother (a much better fighter than me) go after her, ending with pretty much the same result. In tennis, one sees the ball going in, moves laterally just enough to be in range of a swing; which she does everytime. I later found that I had to use a "counter the counter" tactic just so I can get in as many hits as she does.

I am a firm beleiver in that fact that FMA with its weapons base can and does make the practitioner rely soley on skill and technique as opposed to strength as in som other MA systems, the weapon if used correctly with skill and knowldge can and does pay no head to size, weight or gender, I have expearianced this first hand. . . I may be wrong, but from personal expeariance so far I feel I am right.

And you may very well be right, sir. In fact, I think that if there are instances that women have not done as well as men, is probably because they have been limited to "just that proper way" of doing things. Remember, I was dominating my GF when I taught her the "traditional" way of the numerada, and the traditional attacks, blocks and sinawali drills; but when I told her to swing away like she does in tennis, I had to train further just so I would not be hugely embarrassed.

[LastFMArnisador]

Originally posted by Gryphon Hall
One can guess that the story ends with me getting clobbered. And one will guess rightly. She sidestepped each of my attacks and hit the nearest target (my knuckles) very, very hard. When she had pity on me and stopped targeting my knuckles, she targeted my elbows. I threw in the towel 21 bruises and zero ego later.

Later, I had my brother (a much better fighter than me) go after her, ending with pretty much the same result. In tennis, one sees the ball going in, moves laterally just enough to be in range of a swing; which she does everytime. I later found that I had to use a "counter the counter" tactic just so I can get in as many hits as she does.


AWW Poor little Gryphon... did your GF ruffle a few of your pretty proud feathers ? ;)

he he he.. this kind of stuff is all but funny to me... big burly dude, thinks he's the king of the world, until a cute little girls starts fighting like mad, and kicks butt to boot.. :D
Jeez, and she trained tennis before taking up FMA ? uh oh, somebody's gonna get his living daylights beaten outta him, putting men to shame ! ;)

G'luck with your hard training... (better do, before your GF becomes a living FMA Demoness ! beating the guys for all the hard times they endured under us brutes... XD ! joke lang pare ! easy ka lang ok ? (kidding ya, man, go easy on your Gf, ok ? )

on the other hand.. women do benefit from MA training.. FMA too is a good place to start.. but the advantages/disadvantages of women in FMA (and any other MA), is nothing but insignificant... (just my thinking.. if a woman can stand up to a guy in any FMA (or another MA for that matter), then all the better..) it all depends on their willingness to learn, skill progression and other countless factors...

Women prefer soft MA styles, as far as i know. And aikido is a good example.. nowadays, this gender gap is closing in on all MA's, FMA is no exception. ( but the big problem is how to keep them there once they start training ? )

I read in a book once that Leo Giron teached his style to women during the 70's and 80's due to high crime rate against women in USA back in those days.. And in the Doce Pares school, there is a woman who holds a high rank in the style... dunno who she is but she is said to be good in forms(sayaws)... this is what i've heard so far within my peers in DPA (Doce Pares Arnis).

to finish this, i wholeheartedly believe that women is SORELY needed in the FMA...
if only the men would stop ogling on the poor girls and go agressively when training with them... guys like us.. we're brutes.. :cry: (cant blame us on that, fellow sisters, we be brutal against eachother.. its in our genes, unfortunately *embarrased*) so to promote this lethal art to them, then it should be for the purposes of selfdefense.. and also for keeping up with the men too.

FMA should be open for all, men as well as women... :D

TO GRYPHON:
what does the latin passage of your signature mean ?

[Gryphon Hall]

big burly dude, thinks he's the king of the world, until a cute little girls starts fighting like mad, and kicks butt to boot.. :D
Jeez, and she trained tennis before taking up FMA ? uh oh, somebody's gonna get his living daylights beaten outta him, putting men to shame ! ;)

G'luck with your hard training... (better do, before your GF becomes a living FMA Demoness ! beating the guys for all the hard times they endured under us brutes... XD ! joke lang pare ! easy ka lang ok ? (kidding ya, man, go easy on your Gf, ok ? )
Ay, grabe! Don't I know it! One of the things I thought were impossible was that she can actually hurt me. I mean, I've seen other women do those tippity-taps and I thought, he-he, I'll show her what a man I am. But she really hurt me. I mean, it was only on the knuckles and elbows, to be sure, but there are a lot of things one can't do well when your knuckles are caput (oooh, I dreaded everytime I "had to go").

Don't worry, p're. My brothers and my Dad made fun of me worse than you did, not to mention my GF herself (one of her fondest memories, too; sheeeesh!). And I deserved it for underestimating any opponent.

what does the latin passage of your signature mean ?
It's taken from the Vulgate version of the Bible, Parabolæ Salomonis XVII:28 is Latin for Proverbs 17:28. Sorry, don't have a Bible handy to write it out word for word, but it essentially it says that a person is not counted wise just because he talks a lot, or says a lot, but sometimes the quiet persons know more than the big talkers. I have to remember that always, especially on a public forum like this.

Women prefer soft MA styles, as far as i know.
You're right. My GF wanted to study Tai Chi. Don't know why, really. Probably because it's all graceful and stuff (more opportunities for "ogling", you think? :D )

[Estel Authorion]

Later, I had my brother (a much better fighter than me) go after her, ending with pretty much the same result.
Thanks a lot bro for letting the cat out of the bag!:woo:

to finish this, i wholeheartedly believe that women is SORELY needed in the FMA...
if only the men would stop ogling on the poor girls and go agressively when training with them... guys like us.. we're brutes.. :cry: (cant blame us on that, fellow sisters, we be brutal against eachother.. its in our genes, unfortunately *embarrased*) so to promote this lethal art to them, then it should be for the purposes of selfdefense.. and also for keeping up with the men too.
Yeah, that is why I prefer sparring with females now. I find that I get a lot more skillful trying to keep up with all that speed! And they are pretty cool about attacking a guy en masse. I got at least four women try to hit me (okay, okay, they hit me a couple of times. . . allright, a LOT of times). That was the best training for mass attack I ever got (bruises and busted knuckles everafter).:love:

One of the good things about the training sessions was that they have lost the hesitation to strike a guy out to hurt them. That attitude makes a lot of difference in self-defence.

Morale is to the physical as three is to one. -Napoleon

[Pat OMalley]

that's nonsence. The pro's on both tours aren't exactly getting drunk every night whilct practicing, are they. They have drill just like we do and practice with other top tier practitioners. You've not really described the "focused pool professional" in your comments.

Okay, Let's talk nonsence, How can you compare pool or billiards to FMA, if we are honest about it 90% of men practice and play Pool & Billiards and 10% of women play with 90% of those women playing only to be involved and participate with their boyfriend or husband in an event they can both be involved in. As a matter of fact I have been playing pool for over 15 years and my wife is 14 year my younger, she is a far better pool player than me and is captain of our local pool team. I on the other hand am considered to be a better FMA practitioner, not because I am a male, but because I have more expeariance and time involved in the arts (over 20 years) but on saying that when it comes to sparring, she can at times be my worst nightmare.
My wife is far lighter and very much the female and she competes with me on an equal level when it come to sparring, and beleive me I spar her as I would spar anyone be they male or female.
I you train and treat a woman with kid gloves then that is how she will fight, if you train her to fight as you would figtht then that is how she will fight.
Fighting with weapons is an equaliser, ask any soldier (I know I was one once). If you get hit in the head with a good shot from a 3 year old child you will go down, so why think that just because the person is female that tshe can't hit you as hard or as fast or with accuracy. This kind of approach can and will get you hurt (if you are lucky).
More and more women are holding their own against men but then again more and more women are taking part in what is to be frank a male dominated environment.
When the women start to out number the men is the FMA we will have the same conversation but the roles will be reversed. That is why we have adopted a system of sparring that has no gender divisions, only weight catagories.

Mabuhay

Pat O'Malley :love:

[RichieRich]

Okay, Let's talk nonsence

Thanks Patt you did a good job. We we're simply adressing the manual dexterity / spacial awareness aspect in men and women (it was braught up as part of the strenght issue). That's great if you girlfriend can beat you at pool; always more enjoyable to play someone more capable than yourself. If we step outside of your microcosm of two, however, the top women pool players cannot compete with the top 100 men.

Thanks.

[Pat OMalley]

Thanks Patt you did a good job. We we're simply adressing the manual dexterity / spacial awareness aspect in men and women (it was braught up as part of the strenght issue). That's great if you girlfriend can beat you at pool; always more enjoyable to play someone more capable than yourself. If we step outside of your microcosm of two, however, the top women pool players cannot compete with the top 100 men.

Thanks.

I'm sorry but you comparison of Pool to FMA has no real bearing on the subject, one requires a table, a cue and some balls. The other requires skill, the willingness to survive a confrontation (you could say balls), and a weapon.
One is a sport and the other is a method of self protection with some aspects of the art that have been turned into a sport.
It's a bit like trying to compare surfing to cooking. :confused:

[RichieRich]

well, you could have said that origionally, you look a bit silly now. You've argued the other case but now you say there's no comparison.

[shootodog]

still trying to stay out of this one....

[Diego_Vega]

Shootodog,

Don't you spar againsts women on a regular basis?

[shootodog]

Shootodog,

Don't you spar againsts women on a regular basis?

i only work on my wife's guard game and her full mount :D. seriously, i've sparred with my wife (judo/ grappling) and with karen manalastas (who took the silver in the last wekaf). i'd say that it prepares them for fighting men.

[Pat OMalley]

well, you could have said that origionally, you look a bit silly now. You've argued the other case but now you say there's no comparison.

If you feel I look silly then that is ok as long as it makes you feel good. If I really wanted to look silly I could have countered your argument with a similar argument of "why do women make better ballet dancers than men".But then again balet dancing takes strength co-ordination, dextierity and even spacial awareness, all of the things you need to become a good Eskrimador.
I went along with your argument because I feel that in any given sport, if you get two people with the same strength, the same build and the same talent all being equal the gender of the competitor should not even come into it.
Arnis, Eskrima, Kali depend heavily on weapons combat and if you have sparred to any degree of reality with weapons you will know that again gender does not come into it, skill and determination are the keys to winning a weapons based fight, not strength and masculinity.
You will find that if any female trains the same way as her male counterpart and is not given the kid glove appraoch just because she is female and allow her to spar on an equal basis with the men, she will devlope and compete on equal terms and her chances of winning will be the same as anyone elses.
A lot of instructors and students in martial arts treat women differently and tend to go easier on them, becuase they feel that is the right thing to do, they then tell them that they can defend themselves against a male attacker, this is wrong.
To be confident that a women can defend herself again a man you have to first train her the exact same way as you would a man, you spare her no quarter because she is a woman, as a matter of fact there are times when you have to be harder on her to make her realise that fighting is not about gender, it is about winning.
Some women do not feel complete in there training untill they have sparred with the men on an equal basis and rightly so, you are short changing them if you treat them differently.
After all, how many muscles do you need and how much testosterone do you need to defeat someone if you have a weapon in your hand???
A 3 year old can cut you with a knife, but an angry trained female Eskrimador with a weapon in her hand can tear you apart no matter how strong you think you are.
If anything, the male has a disadvantage in the bout, espeacially if he is foolish enough to think the femal is the weaker sex, considering that it has been genetically proven that they have a higher pain tollerance, have more dexterity and have better spacial awareness, that is also why they make good gymnast's, as a matter of fact they do say they are better at gymnastics than the men. And if you know your women they can be more stubborn, determined and when they want to be, more vindictive when put under pressure.
As they say "God help those who feel the wrath of a woman scorned".

All the best from just being silly ;)

Pat O'Malley

[RichieRich]

er, okay Pat.I don't feel good at all, I feel bad for you.


I don't see the women ballet dancers lifting the men up too often, but that's probably cultural.


"been genetically proven that they have a higher pain tollerance, have more dexterity and have better spacial awareness".

Genetically proven or clinical proven? If you're going to make stuff up, at least use the right words, Pat. Thanks for a very personal and subjective view of the issue.

[Linguo]

it's not the sex, it's the person

on a side note, some theorize that our tendency to discourage women from physical activities at an early age plays a large part in their physical development, and that it may not be genetics, but a social factor that has limited women's physical capacity.

At the risk of generalization, I will say this about women and pain endurance: As a man, I don't know if I could endure the pain of childbirth. And watching reality shows that focused on pain endurance (okay it was just Real World vs. Road Rules), women tended to do better than those big strong guys. Yeah, it's a limited observation, but just something I've noticed.

[Pat OMalley]

er, okay Pat.I don't feel good at all, I feel bad for you.


I don't see the women ballet dancers lifting the men up too often, but that's probably cultural.


"been genetically proven that they have a higher pain tollerance, have more dexterity and have better spacial awareness".

Genetically proven or clinical proven? If you're going to make stuff up, at least use the right words, Pat. Thanks for a very personal and subjective view of the issue.

Lets pretend for one minute that I agree with your views, I would say that was a right womans answer. ;)

You obviously feel that women are the weaker sex but if you like you can spar my wife :eek: . It will have to be after January though as she will be training her high pain tolerance by giving birth then. :yeleyes:

In fact do you fancy going to the birth for me as the prospect of being in the same room as her will scare any grown man with an ounce of sense. :woo:

All the best


Pat ;)

[RichieRich]

Congrats on your "new arrival", Pat. babies and hospitals are two things I'm not big on - you were there at the start, so its only fair you should be there at the end. :rolleyes:

Being archaic / Old-school, Social-luddite that I am, I don't hit women, PERIOD. I would open doors for her, however. :)

[Gryphon Hall]

I don't see the women ballet dancers lifting the men up too often, but that's probably cultural.Because most ballet pits what is essentially a welterweight to a bantamweight. If a European Prima Ballerina is paired with an Asian male ballet dancer, I think she can and will lift the guy. That is, if the script called for it.

Genetically proven or clinical proven? If you're going to make stuff up, at least use the right words....Clinically proven, actually. Look up Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family on the net. He actually goes into a lot of detail on how "men can be harder, but women are always tougher." An example: women typically outlive their spouses. There is actually a lot more (skeletal stability, heat and pain tolerance, endurance, etc.)

This is becoming pointless. Can women go toe to toe with men? The answer apparently is "yes". What seems to be under discussion isn't whether they could, but if they should.

[RichieRich]

women are always tougher." An example: women typically outlive their spouses.

Well, that in no way spurious link has settled it for me then..! Altough the good doctor does tell me "If you are a deeply committed Christian, do not allow yourself to become "unequally yoked" with an unbeliever." Right on, Doc.

This is becoming pointless. Can women go toe to toe with men? The answer apparently is "yes". What seems to be under discussion isn't whether they could, but if they should.

& I could go toe to toe with Mike Tyson, but I don't think I should.

[Gryphon Hall]

Well, that in no way spurious link has settled it for me then..! Altough the good doctor does tell me "If you are a deeply committed Christian, do not allow yourself to become "unequally yoked" with an unbeliever." Right on, Doc.

& I could go toe to toe with Mike Tyson, but I don't think I should.
It seems you are judging a person's medical credentials by that person's religious beliefs. Well, will anybody be credible enough for you unless they believe exactly as you do? Eye-witness testimony and personal experience doesn't seem to cut it.

And it's "do not allow yourself to be equally yoked with an unbeliever", describing a situation which, considering your prejudices, would be hard to explain.

Mag-ingat ka.

[RichieRich]

It seems you are judging a person's medical credentials by that person's religious beliefs. Well, will anybody be credible enough for you unless they believe exactly as you do? Eye-witness testimony and personal experience doesn't seem to cut it.

And it's "do not allow yourself to be equally yoked with an unbeliever", describing a situation which, considering your prejudices, would be hard to explain.

Mag-ingat ka.

I'm prejudiced towards facts. I take what I've seen at face value, what others have seen with a pinch of salt. Give me statistics, T-stats, R squareds etc. Faith is fine and a personal choice. I don't think it has a place in objective medicine or analysis, though. Things are easy to explain to me, if you command logic and facts.

[Gryphon Hall]

I'm prejudiced towards facts. I take what I've seen at face value, what others have seen with a pinch of salt. Give me statistics, T-stats, R squareds etc.
Fair enough. I'll do my homework, and present it here. The point is, I could have mentioned any practicing M.D., but happened to mention Dobson instead, who happened to be a Christian, making you instantly take anything he says with a pinch of salt, notwithstanding that he is considered as one of the foremost physicians of the United States. Sounds suspiciously like prejudice to me (and not to facts).

Faith is fine and a personal choice. I don't think it has a place in objective medicine or analysis, though. Things are easy to explain to me, if you command logic and facts.
You make it seem that the only ones who can practice medicine are those who have no faith at all, with the unspoken assumption that if you have any faith (especially the Christian variety) it automatically means that what is going on is not objective or logical.

And that quote about believers and non-/unbelievers? Merely some observations that a person who has faith has nothing in common with one who does not, and therefore any association, especially of the marital kind, is not advisable. Logical and factual enough for you? If you want statistics and clinical studies to show how inter-faith marriages or inter-faith friendships have a greater tendency to fail, just give me enough time to find it again, organize it and post it here.

Or, since you trust your own research, find out yourself.

But we digress, and there is such a thing as PM.

Pax.

[RichieRich]

Fair enough. I'll do my homework, and present it here. The point is, I could have mentioned any practicing M.D., but happened to mention Dobson instead, who happened to be a Christian, making you instantly take anything he says with a pinch of salt, notwithstanding that he is considered as one of the foremost physicians of the United States. Sounds suspiciously like prejudice to me (and not to facts)..

What I actually said : " take what I've seen at face value, what others have seen with a pinch of salt."


You make it seem that the only ones who can practice medicine are those who have no faith at all, with the unspoken assumption that if you have any faith (especially the Christian variety) it automatically means that what is going on is not objective or logical.

Please respond to what I say, not what you think I say / wished I said. Okay? I said "Faith is fine and a personal choice. I don't think it has a place in objective medicine or analysis, though." This does not preclude anyone (religous or not) from being a good doctor - I says that faith should not be the framework for medicine or analysis.

This has gone far enough off topic. I think I've described what I find as acceptable evidence for my consideration, which is of course subjective, but we all have our own value systems.

[Gryphon Hall]

Please respond to what I say, not what you think I say / wished I said. Okay?Whether you believe it or not, I have.

First, you call into question Pat's assertions by calling it "personal" and "subjective". I respond by providing a possible medical and clinical basis for all this. You respond

Altough the good doctor does tell me "If you are a deeply committed Christian, do not allow yourself to become "unequally yoked" with an unbeliever." Right on, Doc.Where did that come from? Does it even stay on track of what we were discussing? How can that be interpreted as anything but "Well, I disagree with him here, why should I agree with anything he says"? Which does not answer the assertion that women can be tougher, ergo, can go toe to toe with men in an MA match, and win.

In fact, if there is any position that lacks any statistics, it is that women necessarily will be the underdog in a fight. You already have at least two eye-witness, personal, and objective testimony to the fact that it is not. Maybe if there were posts that show actual women trying to fight a man and failing, maybe it wouldn't seem so skewed towards the fact that they have fought and won.

Cheers.

P.S. Whether one admits it or not, faith or the lack thereof has influenced the development of medicine and objective analysis greatly. So, too, with the Martial Arts. And the only reason why I explained the "believer/unbeliever" thing is because you asked.

[RichieRich]

Some quick responces

1) Clinical results are stastical and have a meaningfull sample size.

2) I checked outthe website - couldn't find your qoute but did find lost of Christian stuff. Made me wonder is its a forum for Christainity/ medicine or both.

3) This whole joyous exchange is actually based on the concept of disparity in co-ordination bewteen the sexes. I don't use weapons in my MA, so I cannot comment on how much they level the playing field - but according to the US military, Women have less spatial ability.

"The results for the officer applicants were consistent with previous findings (Burke, 1995; Hyde, 1981;Jensen, 1980). In a meta-analysis of male-female mean differences on pilot aptitude tests, Burke (1995)reported small differences on verbal tests (-.1 d favoring women), with larger differences on quantitative (.5 dfavoring men) and spatial tests (.5 d favoring men). Burke also observed that the size of the sex differences within these broad ability categories varied by specific test content"

[KickChick]

I have been asked this question many times over the years and have even posted this on another forum many years ago, It cause a lot of heated discussions but what the hell, here we go again.



.... and here WE go again!!!

I leave it open to you, I will pop back later after the wife gives me a dam good stick bashing for asking this question again. ;)

Tell her to give you another ! :D j/k!


.... A lot of instructors and students in martial arts treat women differently and tend to go easier on them, becuase they feel that is the right thing to do, they then tell them that they can defend themselves against a male attacker, this is wrong.


This is indeed wrong .. and probably the most important aspect of this thread.

As they say "God help those who feel the wrath of a woman scorned".

Amen to that .... just ask those that know me personally :Angel:

and women are indeed biologically stronger than men (http://www.apol.net/dightonrock/Woman%20stronger.htm)

Now back on track please......

[RichieRich]

*points at Pat*
HE started it! :p

[Pat OMalley]

This whole joyous exchange is actually based on the concept of disparity in co-ordination bewteen the sexes. I don't use weapons in my MA, so I cannot comment on how much they level the playing field - but according to the US military, Women have less spatial ability.

Well, well, this is the crux of the matter. My point was, with weapons being an equaliser do you think that women should compete against the men on an equal basis. :rolleyes: My argument was "yes" based on personal expeariance. You argue against with no expeariance in this feild at all. As you said you do not use weapons in your MA so at the end of the day how can you make an honest judgement and opinion on a subject you have very little knowledge about.

I think you are basically chauvanistic in your approach to a subject you have admited you know very little about and as for going off subject (pointing the finger back) you started it with your example of pool games which has nothing to do with MA.

Yes I started the subject but then again this forum is meant for subject to be started in order for others to learn and discuss points of veiw and facts.

The fact of the matter is it is because of people like you that many women have not been recognised for their abilities and talents and have by many including I think your good slef been held back from showing just how equal in ability and skill they really are.

As I said before and learning from personal expeariance gender does not come into it when weapons are involved, a 3 year old child can kil you with a weapon but a trained femal FMAer can tear you apart.

I figure you are Wing Chun based, (after looking at your public profile that is) is this not a system of MA that was invented by a women in the first place.

So after your "lets go off subject argument" that has no basis when it comes to weapons combat let us all get back onto subject.

Oh by the way Kick Chick she has give me another good stick bashing. :love: Sheezz, I'm a succer for a good stick bashing :p

Hey, RichieRich just a little off subject again but you started it, I started the subject, you started to go off subject. And I was at the birth on my 4 year old son and I will be at the birth on my next child :Angel: but let me tell you it takes a brave man to stand next to a women giving birth :eek: I would sooner fight a hundred screaming Moros with live blades than disagree with one woman who is about to give birth, with the Moros I have a slim chance of survival :rolleyes: , the woman, well say no more. :love:

So again I ask, do you feel that as weapons are considered to be an equaliser should women compete on an equal level with their male counter parts, if so why? and if not why?

[Pat OMalley]

but according to the US military, Women have less spatial ability.

Is that with or without freindly fire :confused: No Offence but the US Military are not exactly a world proven authority on the subject :woo: and having served in the Forces I can tell you the most freared enemy we had was the female terrorist. :eek:

[RichieRich]

Well, well, this is the crux of the matter. My point was, with weapons being an equaliser do you think that women should compete against the men on an equal basis. :rolleyes: My argument was "yes" based on personal expeariance. You argue against with no expeariance in this feild at all. As you said you do not use weapons in your MA so at the end of the day how can you make an honest judgement and opinion on a subject you have very little knowledge about.

I don't use weapons. My MA does. I've seen women spar without weapons and frankly, they're not very good.

I think you are basically chauvanistic in your approach to a subject you have admited you know very little about and as for going off subject (pointing the finger back) you started it with your example of pool games which has nothing to do with MA.

Chauvanistic may be realistic, Pat. I have tried to dissagregate and isolate components of a percieved disparity. If you have a more systemic methodolgy, I'm all ears.

Yes I started the subject but then again this forum is meant for subject to be started in order for others to learn and discuss points of veiw and facts.

It was a joke, not a personal attack, Pat. I think I put a smiley face on their somewhere..

The fact of the matter is it is because of people like you that many women have not been recognised for their abilities and talents and have by many including I think your good slef been held back from showing just how equal in ability and skill they really are.

Here I go oppressing the masses again. Either
1) They are talented enough but so weak of mind / spirit that they are swayed by nay-sayers
2) They aren't as good.
3) ..... I'm sure you have a number 3.

As I said before and learning from personal expeariance gender does not come into it when weapons are involved, a 3 year old child can kil you with a weapon but a trained femal FMAer can tear you apart.

I'm sure you have a point in there somewhere, Pat. Is is that women FMAers are equivalent to 3 years olds? :p Yes, I know it isn't but your arguement is meandering at best...

I figure you are Wing Chun based, (after looking at your public profile that is) is this not a system of MA that was invented by a women in the first place.

I don't know pat, I wasn't alive then. There are many stories and they all sound fantastic. Could be that it was - but was she the best practitioner?


So after your "lets go off subject argument" that has no basis when it comes to weapons combat let us all get back onto subject.

I was trying to find the components that create skill with the weapons and isolate them. Weapons are supposed to mitagate strength somewhat, but I was advocating spatial awareness is still important.

Oh by the way Kick Chick she has give me another good stick bashing. :love: Sheezz, I'm a succer for a good stick bashing :p

Hey, RichieRich just a little off subject again but you started it, I started the subject, you started to go off subject. And I was at the birth on my 4 year old son and I will be at the birth on my next child :Angel: but let me tell you it takes a brave man to stand next to a women giving birth :eek: I would sooner fight a hundred screaming Moros with live blades than disagree with one woman who is about to give birth, with the Moros I have a slim chance of survival :rolleyes: , the woman, well say no more. :love:

Congratulations on the new addition, I raise my glass.

So again I ask, do you feel that as weapons are considered to be an equaliser should women compete on an equal level with their male counter parts, if so why? and if not why?

Can they compete? - sure. Are they as good, all things except gender being equal - I don't think so.

[RichieRich]

Is that with or without freindly fire :confused: No Offence but the US Military are not exactly a world proven authority on the subject :woo: and having served in the Forces I can tell you the most freared enemy we had was the female terrorist. :eek:

Okay Pat. This was based on scientific testing. I don't think they were being shot at in the lab. Do some research - there are papers sited on the qoute. If you aren't statistically inclined or have a greavance with the methodology, take it up with the origional authors and tell me how it went.

[Linguo]

Let's face it. There's really nothing but anecdotal material out there to support the arguments. RichieRich, you provided a statistic on spatial awareness, which in theory, could apply to weapons use by women, but you have no hard evidence to support men's superiority to women in weapons sparring.

There really are too many factors involved. How were the women trained? Did men take it easy on the women, which would skew the results of sparring?

Honestly, I don't see it as a gender thing, but an individual training issue. To generalize that all women are incapable of sparring with weapons at the same level as men is to imply that all men are capable of sparring at the same level. Everyone is different. Some have more talent and/or drive than others, regardless of gender. If you are good, you are good-- gender be damned.

[RichieRich]

Let's face it. There's really nothing but anecdotal material out there to support the arguments. RichieRich, you provided a statistic on spatial awareness, which in theory, could apply to weapons use by women, but you have no hard evidence to support men's superiority to women in weapons sparring.

There really are too many factors involved. How were the women trained? Did men take it easy on the women, which would skew the results of sparring?

Honestly, I don't see it as a gender thing, but an individual training issue. To generalize that all women are incapable of sparring with weapons at the same level as men is to imply that all men are capable of sparring at the same level. Everyone is different. Some have more talent and/or drive than others, regardless of gender. If you are good, you are good-- gender be damned.

Emperically, wouldn't you see women pushing for mixed competitions and winning them?

[RubyMoon]

Emperically, wouldn't you see women pushing for mixed competitions and winning them?Unfortunately, the martial arts world expects less of women. With such low demands, it is not surprising that many women fall short. If you suddenly threw men and women together in competition, however, I believe you would quickly see an increase in the level of performance from women, and yes, women would start winning a few.

There are differences between men and women. The three that seem to matter most in regards to martial arts, are size, strength, and aggression. These things tend to give men certain advantages. Any other supposed differences between the genders are trivial and easily overcome. Anybody who has any experience sparring a variety of opponents should know that size, strength, and aggression can be overcome with skill, speed, and control.

When you throw a couple sticks of cane into the equation, suddenly the smaller, faster, more composed fighter has all the advantage! Your sticks become your strength, and being large just means being a bigger target.

Testosterone generates the aggressiveness and competitive drive of most males. This tends to be an advantage in many sports, like competition sparring. This aggression occurs naturally and serves many purposes, but it has its limits. When a male is beaten or feels dominated, he tends to withdraw. His aggressive nature is very active and outward, but it is not really designed for defense.

A female, on the other hand, is not ruled by testosterone (although she still produces some). She tends not to be outwardly aggressive or have any particular need to compete with others. A woman, however, possesses a much more fierce and deadly natural instinct; the instinct to protect herself and her children from harm. Many women don't even know they have this powerful weapon inside them, but it is there. A woman's natural defensive drive is normally dormant and internal, but it can be tapped and used to great effect.

Other than the "big three" differences of size, strength, and aggression, most other differences between men and women are fairly superficial. Society imposes many, many other limitations and rules upon the genders, most of which have nothing to do with actual physiological differences.

Truth be told, when you melt away all the societal factors, we're all pretty much the same. This truth is not well received in a male dominated world, and there are many who actively suppress it. At one time, women were not considered worldly or intelligent enough to be given the right to vote. Now such an idea seems ludicrous. More and more, female athletes are proving that although there are differences between the genders...those differences are not so great as we might have thought a few years ago.

As for women and the Filippino martial arts...put some cane in my hands and ask me again. ;)

"It often happens that the universal belief of one age, a belief from which no one was free or could be free without an extraordinary effort of genius or courage, becomes to a subsequent age, so palpable an absurdity that the only difficulty is, to imagine how such an idea could ever have appeared credible." -- John Stuart Mill

[RichieRich]

and being large just means being a bigger target.

So boxers have been wrong regarding "Reach advantage" all this time?


A woman, however, possesses a much more fierce and deadly natural instinct; the instinct to protect herself and her children from harm

Where as men have no self preservation tendancies whatsoever.

I'm suprised you haven't offered up "female intuition" as an advantage. :rolleyes:

[RubyMoon]

So boxers have been wrong regarding "Reach advantage" all this time?I never said anything at all about boxing. When it comes to stick fighting, however, all your "reach advantage" will get you is a swollen wrist and a sudden lack of a weapon.Where as men have no self preservation tendancies whatsoever.I never said any such thing.I'm suprised you haven't offered up "female intuition" as an advantage. :rolleyes:What I "offered up" was right on target and quite diplomatic, which is more than I can say for your condescending reply. Taking my comments out of context and putting words in my mouth accomplish nothing. The observant reader will note that I didn't "offer up" any advantages at all for women, only differences which can be overcome.

I find your response very revealing, to say the least.

[RichieRich]

For Ruby:

1) So you say reach gives no advantage at all? Please do, go on..

2) Well you offered up "A woman, however, possesses a much more fierce and deadly natural instinct; the instinct to protect herself and her children from harm. Many women don't even know they have this powerful weapon inside them, but it is there. A woman's natural defensive drive is normally dormant and internal, but it can be tapped and used to great effect."

note "A MUCH MORE FIERCE AND DEADLY NATURAL INSTINCT" - please object if you think you are being misquoted. More Fierce and deadly than what?

I'm sorry you found my reply condescending. I tried to offer relevant counter-argument. My final, somewhat flippant point was to direct you to the lack of though and/or scientific grounding in your final point.

I'm pleased that my response sheds light on things for you.. :p

And now back to the spatial awareness issue...

Here’s another little gem under the title of “Why Can't Women Park A Car -- Is It Depth Perception?”

http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/DeanFullTextTopics.cfm?ID=46705&src=n45

From Dr. Dean Edell

He points out:” Men do have better three-dimensional spatial visualization.”

Would this give an advantage in FMA, do you think? Does FMA involve complex motion in three dimensions?

He also points out: “Women, on the other hand, have better language and communication skills.”

Note – these skills are far more relevant to succeeding in modern society than the ability to bludgeon with sticks, etc. I am envious of my female counterparts for being blessed with a progressive advantage. They’re also much better multitaskers, dontchaknow…

The good Doc then says: “We are grown up enough to accept the fact that the sexes are different, so I don't expect to get into trouble by acknowledging these distinctions.” – Obviously he doesn’t post on MAP. Don’t let Objectivity get in the way of political correctness, for goodness sakes!

Okay, so I’m now braced for the bleating of “It’s because women are taught/ treated different that they don’t have skill parity with men”

I’d like to offer up this for thought:

THERE’S A REASON YOU DON’T SEE 4’2” HIGH-JUMP CHAMPIONS.

[RubyMoon]

1) So you say reach gives no advantage at all? Please do, go on..If your sticks are longer than my sticks, you have a reach advantage. Otherwise, the reach of the weapon renders all but the most extreme differences in arm length pretty much null. You will have to expose just as many targets to strike me as I will expose to strike you. Your longer arm means your stick must travel a greater distance to reach me, so I have more time to react. While your weapon hand is still in transit, my block and counter have already arrived. Your "reach advantage" may give you more power behind your attack, but this is inconsequential. My strikes will be just as effective, and easier to land with precision against a larger target.note "A MUCH MORE FIERCE AND DEADLY NATURAL INSTINCT" - please object if you think you are being misquoted. More Fierce and deadly than what?This was in comparison to natural male aggressiveness. The natural male instinct for aggresiveness is mostly for show and domination, it is not normally about life and death. (I do not believe killing and deadly violence are natural parts of any human being, except perhaps in desperate self-defense. These are learned behaviors.)I'm sorry you found my reply condescending. I tried to offer relevant counter-argument. My final, somewhat flippant point was to direct you to the lack of though and/or scientific grounding in your final point.Fair enough, although I think you'll find you've underestimated me. There is no lack of thought or scientific basis in my posts. I may not always be right, but...oh, wait, yes I am!* :p He points out:” Men do have better three-dimensional spatial visualization.”The doctor hints at statistics but cites no source for this ethereal data. By what margin does this data supposedly show men outperforming women in spacial visualization? Where did the data come from, who collected it and why? Too wishy-washy.Would this give an advantage in FMA, do you think? Does FMA involve complex motion in three dimensions?Even if the doctor's questionable opinion is taken as fact, I do not believe this difference would have any significance at all in the martial arts. Parking a car is one thing, moving one's body through three dimensions is quite another. Baton twirlers, gymnasts and ballet dancers seem to have no trouble whatsoever in this regard. Any perceived difference is too minor to have any notable impact in the martial arts.He also points out: “Women, on the other hand, have better language and communication skills.”Again, even if this is true it does not mean men cannot train to achieve these same skills. These are all very minor differences which can easily be compensated for, given the time and motivation. Okay, so I’m now braced for the bleating of “It’s because women are taught/ treated different that they don’t have skill parity with men”That would mean I accepted your presumption that women don't have skill parity with men, which is completely bogus. If you want bleating, you'll have to get a sheep (I'm sure you know where to find one).

* This comment intended as light-hearted sarcasm. See below for full disclaimer.

[RichieRich]

1) Your longer arm means your stick must travel a greater distance to reach me, so I have more time to react.

This implies that the distance from me to you does not equal the distance from you to me. Perhaps this is a spatial awareness thing..

2) While your weapon hand is still in transit, my block and counter have already arrived. Your "reach advantage" may give you more power behind your attack, but this is inconsequential. My strikes will be just as effective, and easier to land with precision against a larger target.

Let’s get this straight. More power is inconsequential. “the reach of the weapon renders all but the most extreme differences in arm length pretty much null” – but “My strikes will be just as effective, and easier to land with precision against a larger target”. Cake and eat it, anyone – tiny incremental benefit or massive target?

3) So at best the aggression / life of death response is equal between the sexes?

4) Fair enough, although I think you'll find you've underestimated me.

I’m not fighting you, just trying to validate my views on this subject matter

5) The doctor hints at statistics but cites no source for this ethereal data. By what margin does this data supposedly show men outperforming women in spacial visualization? Where did the data come from, who collected it and why? Too wishy-washy.


According to the US military, Women have less spatial ability.

"The results for the officer applicants were consistent with previous findings (Burke, 1995; Hyde, 1981;Jensen, 1980). In a meta-analysis of male-female mean differences on pilot aptitude tests, Burke (1995)reported small differences on verbal tests (-.1 d favoring women), with larger differences on quantitative (.5 dfavoring men) and spatial tests (.5 d favoring men). Burke also observed that the size of the sex differences within these broad ability categories varied by specific test content"

Effect size (d) is calculated as the difference between two groups, divided by a measure of the variability within the groups (standard deviation). If you're not familar with this I'll happily explain. If you are, then no need.

Three authors are listed should you wish to research further.

Also see this article :
http://www.sfu.ca/~dkimura/articles/NEL.htm

“Motor Skills:
A very large advantage for men is found on tasks that require hitting a target with a missile, or intercepting a moving target [48, 106, 107]. This advantage does not appear to depend simply on men’s greater strength, nor on the their more active sports history. It appears to depend on the accurate co-ordination of spatial targets with large-amplitude aiming movements, but it is not significantly related to scores on paper-and-pencil spatial tasks on which men also excel [107]. The fact that homosexual men, whose physical build, sex of rearing and gender identity is male, throw less accurately on average than heterosexual men [31, 89] suggests that the male advantage is founded on a distinctive cognitive ability, rather than being reducible to somatic characteristics.
In contrast, women do better than men on small amplitude fine motor skills, such as required on the Purdue Pegboard. Some studies have found this advantage to be related to women’s smaller finger size but this is not so in other studies [e.g., 31]. Women also tend to be better at performing manual sequences, relative to their speed on the individual movements [80]; and this advantage is enhanced when performing without vision [12], suggesting that women’s motor skills may be more closely related to intrapersonal than to extrapersonal neural systems.”
Draw you own conclusions.


6) That would mean I accepted your presumption that women don't have skill parity with men, which is completely bogus


From above “A very large advantage for men is found on tasks that require hitting a target with a missile, or intercepting a moving target.. It appears to depend on the accurate co-ordination of spatial targets with large-amplitude aiming movements” .

“Completely bogus” eh?

THERE’S A REASON YOU DON’T SEE 4’2” HIGH-JUMP CHAMPIONS.

I find it noteworthy you didn’t address this. Think of the causality chain.

... and a Wolf always knows where to find the sheep.

[Scarlet Mist]

I never said anything at all about boxing. When it comes to stick fighting, however, all your "reach advantage" will get you is a swollen wrist and a sudden lack of a weapon.

And Scarlet Says ...

WRONG! WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! You wanna know how I know. Because I've been doing it all year. Stick sparring ... I train in Doce Pares Escrima (I've once trained with Guro "Dong" Cuesta .. gosh that was an awesome question) .. but anyway. I do not want to appear to come across as an authority on FMA, but having a greater reach seems an advantage for me. Let's say my opponent thrusts (assume we're sparring double stick), and I parry with my first stick, because my arms are longer my second stick is closer to my opponens head than his is to mine, I'll easily beat him to the punch (or strike as it may be). Of course, both parties having sticks of equal length deducts from the reach advantage, but think about it, for a shorter opponet to get inside me and pound on my head, he has to leave his head vulnerable ... and his head becomes vulnerable before mine does.

Now, to the main point. I'm part of a small Doce Pares Escrima club, there are 2 girls in it ... and gosh are they quick (they're both from the fillipines incidentally), but they're both 5 feet or less... If I spar with one of them, I back away whilst pounding on their heads ... it works, I get hit a lot less than they hit me. But it's pointless to do empty hand sparring with them. I mean, come on, even if she hit me with a full on right hook to the cheek she'd probably break her hand.

But see, I still can't judge how good female FMA fighers are, because I've only seen a few of them. But it still remains that men on avearage are harder, faster, and stronger than women on average. A weapon is somewhat of an equalizer, but it does not remove the advantage of being harder, faster and stronger.

[RichieRich]

I guess both camps will have there opinions. Debate was had, agreement was not reached.

How about this. Women FMAers, why not enter Men's comps or push for mixed comps? I'm sure the OMalley's excellent standing in the sport (Nice website by the way) carries more than sufficient weight to facilitate this. I will tip my hats to such trail-blazers, regardless of the outcome.

Rich

[Scarlet Mist]

If your sticks are longer than my sticks, you have a reach advantage. Otherwise, the reach of the weapon renders all but the most extreme differences in arm length pretty much null. You will have to expose just as many targets to strike me as I will expose to strike you. Your longer arm means your stick must travel a greater distance to reach me, so I have more time to react. While your weapon hand is still in transit, my block and counter have already arrived.


Are you sure about that Ruby. See argument in previous post.

[Pat OMalley]

Hello everyone, let me introduce myself as Lucy O'Malley as my login has not activated yet, so I am forcing Pat to let me use his login. :Angel:

Ok here we go...... :woo:

I can tell you, no man will ever beat me in weapons or empty hand combat. :D

Yes, this is a fact and it has been proven. I keep proving it over and over again.

All my male opponents are now just statistics, many have become clinical statistics the others, scientific experiments. Which group would you like to join? ;)

You can ask any man that has met me, if they will willingly step in the ring with me and I can assure you their answer will be hesitant. Not because I am a women, but because most of them have already been on the receiving end of my stick or fist or they have simply seen me fight and of course do not want to be beaten by a women as it is very embarrassing, isn't it boyz...you know who you are :cry:

I am good at anything I choose to be good at. I do not choose to be good at sewing, but I know many men who are.

I agree, reach is important for men, that is why they invented viagra :rolleyes:

But on a more serious note, as far as I am concerned, to be good at any range, style or technique you need to practice it correctly. This can incorperate training against different people with different strengths. To be good at any technique or range you need to train against different strengths, height, reach and builds this includes both genders. Once you perfect your techniques it becomes skill, not aggression, strength and these supposedly magical visions that many men seem to think they have.(I call this ego).

I consider myself to be very good at close range combat. This started as a preference, but then I had to perfect it against long range fighters of both genders in order to have the ability to close the gap regardless of range to reach my comfort area where I can dominate due to size and reach (Not gender) But I have trained myself to overcome all situations that could arise in combat.

So fighting men competatively or in any situation with or without weapons does not concern me at all. And to answer the original question that Pat posted, I do believe women should fight in the same division as the men on a competative level as at the end of the day weapons based combat is based on skill not strength or gender and I am good. :love:

Lots of love :love:

Lucy O'Malley

3 times world full contact stickfighting champion.
oh yeah! 5 European titles, 18 British titles.
Former British Vale Tudo Champion
The only female member of the Black Eagle Society (No Rules, No Armour, No Ego's, No Weight Divisions or Gender Categorisation) Stickfighting Group (akin to your Dog Brothers group).
4 years working as a door supervisor (Bouncer) in pubs, clubs and bars. :woo: :woo:

[Pat OMalley]

:eek: Jeezzz, all you guy's run for cover, Lucy has entered the building. :eek:

What I haven't told you all yet is that the last bloke to think he was the be all and end all ended up going to hospital to get stitches in his arm when he was forced to partner Lucy due to his very large male ego and neanderthal attitude. Hense she gained the nick name "The Slasher" By the way people we were doing knife defence with real knives and he thought that being a man gave him the advantage and he started to try and get rough, he tried to use his extra reach and guess what, woo, woo, woo, Ambulance. His attitude changed rather rapidly.

Sorry Guy's, Don't blame me :o It's RichieRich's fault by saying women were inferiour when it comes to fighting.

"OK Darling, I'm coming, Yes dear, I will make you a cup of tea" :love:

[Pat OMalley]

I guess both camps will have there opinions. Debate was had, agreement was not reached.

How about this. Women FMAers, why not enter Men's comps or push for mixed comps? I'm sure the OMalley's excellent standing in the sport (Nice website by the way) carries more than sufficient weight to facilitate this. I will tip my hats to such trail-blazers, regardless of the outcome.

Rich

That was my whole point!

[Pat OMalley]

Now, to the main point. I'm part of a small Doce Pares Escrima club, there are 2 girls in it ... and gosh are they quick (they're both from the fillipines incidentally), but they're both 5 feet or less... If I spar with one of them, I back away whilst pounding on their heads ... it works, I get hit a lot less than they hit me. But it's pointless to do empty hand sparring with them. I mean, come on, even if she hit me with a full on right hook to the cheek she'd probably break her hand.


I tell you what, Let them give you a right hook and see what happends :cry:

By the way, If you see Dong, tell him I said Hi. :)

[Pat OMalley]

It was a joke, not a personal attack, Pat. I think I put a smiley face on their somewhere..

Who say's I was not laughing :D :D :D

As a matter of FACT, I have had many a chuckle at a lot of your responces and arguments. :p As they say, if you cant laugh, you will only end up crying :cry:

Keep up the good work. At least that way we can have a proper debate.

[RichieRich]

Lucy and Pat -
First of all congratulations on your new addition. I'm sure the young 'un is a blue belt by now. :cool:

I hear that the UFC prize is a cool $1Million this year - you should get Lucy in pronto..! :rolleyes: I see Lucy certainly isn't short on self confidence and has achieved the pinacle in her field for her sex - But i think She'l stilll have to compete against the guys to swing the nay-sayers minds.
Please come back and tell us how did in mixed comps - You're top of your tree at the moment...is the other tree harder to climb? Time will tell!

Pat, why don't you post your (at least as equally impressive) credentials in your signature?

Ps - I am familiar with the Anglicisms you have posted - I 'm English.

[Pat OMalley]

By the way, RichieRich, RubyMoon's points are based of fact and expeariance.

Well said Girl, you points were spot on.

Some men cant accept the fact that women are and always have been equal. But then again look at ancient history (Not Christian or any other religious history) and you will find male and female warriors who save their nations' on an equal basis and standing. :cool:

[Pat OMalley]

You're top of your tree at the moment...is the other tree harder to climb? Time will tell! I dont climb trees I just use them to hit people with. anyway my students are busy climbing the tree and I am busy footing the ladder.

Pat, why don't you post your (at least as equally impressive) credentials in your signature? My credentials are my signature. after 20 plus years you then realise thet "there is always someone around the corner with a bigger stick"

[RichieRich]

By the way, RichieRich, RubyMoon's points are based of fact and expeariance.

Well said Girl, you points were spot on.

Some men cant accept the fact that women are and always have been equal. But then again look at ancient history (Not Christian or any other religious history) and you will find male and female warriors who save their nations' on an equal basis and standing. :cool:

Of course, same height, same strength, same societal roles... :rolleyes: ..and there were these women called Amazons who lived in the Jungle... :rolleyes:

You've posted looking for discussion which I've tried to give and validate emperically. You had your mind made up before the discourse began, but I think your good natured enough to to have been "looking for an arguement". In nature we see sexual disparities in most species - but not in good old PC people? Lucky us.

There are two bell curves of ability, one for Men, one for women, they overlap in some areas but out on the far right of the curve (highest achievers), there are only men. I know you folks don't like science or logic so - Good luck Lucy in your future tournaments. If you win one, I'll buy you a nice gift (honestly with no sarcasm or malice intended) to celebrate with. Fair do's? :)

[Pat OMalley]

Lucy and Pat -
First of all congratulations on your new addition. I'm sure the young 'un is a blue belt by now. :cool: Cheer's, but no he/she will have to learn the hard way like we all do and like my son will have to if it is something he wants to do.

I see Lucy certainly isn't short on self confidence isn't confidence half the battle?

Ps - I am familiar with the Anglicisms you have posted - I 'm English.[/QUOTE] Nope :confused: lost me there :confused: :confused:

[Pat OMalley]

There are two bell curves of ability, one for Men, one for women, they overlap in some areas but out on the far right of the curve (highest achievers), there are only men. I know you folks don't like science or logic so - Good luck Lucy in your future tournaments. If you win one, I'll buy you a nice gift (honestly with no sarcasm or malice intended) to celebrate with. Fair do's? :)

I hope your pockets are deep, as if you are true to your word, you already owe her a lot of gift's. I tell you what just send her your credit card details and she will do the rest. Her first championships was the Indo/British (India V Britain) Stickfighting championships. The only woman amoungst a group of men with ego's that beleived that women should not fight, Gift Number 1, Gift Number 2 is that she was the overall champion of the event it was an open weight event. :woo:

You have just saved me a lot of money for her next birthday too thanks mate. ;)

[RichieRich]

Lucy explained 'bouncer" to me, etc..
(the Anglicisms) -
If Lucy gets to compete in a mixed tournament and I'm in the UK, I'll show up, support her passionatley and vocally and take the Omalley clan out to dinner. How does that sounds. Just don't make the bad guy if she me looses..

*offers handshake*

Oh can can we re-title the thread can the 18 times womens world champion compete with men - it may need some qualifying. :p

[Pat OMalley]

I am not looking for an argument although it is fun and yes I do have my own views on the subject, but I do need a general view across the board.

I respect all opinions even if I personally disagree. We cannot improve or change current competition methods and categories unless we get a genuine response on the subject. Based on personal experience from not only fighting in but also running major stickfighting tournaments, I have found the women to be equal to the men in their given weight categories and on some occasions in the open weight divisions.

But my wife brought up the possibility that mixing the divisions on a permanent basis may discourage some new women fighters from entering the fold. They may need a starting block. Although the women around at the moment may disagree because they want the mixed divisions to prove their ability. But is this because they have already won confidence by starting in the womens only divisions, or is it because they have been put down by the men for so long that they actually believe they cannot fight on a equal basis.

On personal experience I beg to differ. I don't fight women, I fight opponents. I also feel if you train women the same as men they will fight the same. But until everybody feels that way, it will never be that way and I just want a genuine opinion of what everybody feels regarding this subject.

[Pat OMalley]

Lucy explained 'bouncer" to me, etc..
(the Anglicisms) -
If Lucy gets to compete in a mixed tournament and I'm in the UK, I'll show up, support her passionatley and vocally and take the Omalley clan out to dinner. How does that sounds. Just don't make the bad guy if she me looses..

*offers handshake*

Oh can can we re-title the thread can the 18 times womens world champion compete with men - it may need some qualifying. :p

Everybody loses at some stage and Lucy does not mind losing (although this is rare), she has fun in competition and treats it as a learning expearinace. That is why she is so confident and find's it easy to adapt when required.

Don't offer a handshake, just buy us a Beer, (Oh maybe not as she will probalbly drinks us both under the table). :D

[RichieRich]

I think if the open tournament is "opt in" for women with no associated pressure, it shouldn't be an issue. Now the million dollar question - will I ever see an world open champion who's female?

[RichieRich]

I'll get you silly drunk in return for some stick lessons?

[Pat OMalley]

I think if the open tournament is "opt in" for women with no associated pressure, it shouldn't be an issue. Now the million dollar question - will I ever see an world open champion who's female?

You never know untill you try, you have to start somewhere and it might take a while but I beleive once everyone has accepted that women can through choice comepte alongside men, it will only be a matter of time before you see a woman world champion who has fought and defeated the men on an equal basis.

It was not hat long ago when we beleived that the world was flat, we know different now.

[Pat OMalley]

I'll get you silly drunk in return for some stick lessons?
Phew you must have lots of money, that in it's self is a task on it's own, but you got a deal :)

[Scarlet Mist]

Some men cant accept the fact that women are and always have been equal. But then again look at ancient history (Not Christian or any other religious history) and you will find male and female warriors who save their nations' on an equal basis and standing. :cool:


No no no. NO! Women and men are not completely equal. While they are of equal value to a nation or an organization, they are just not equal when it comes to fighting. And what I mean to say, is that ON AVERAGE, or GENERALLY men are better warriors than women. Why is Lucy Omalley so revered (if she is), because she is a woman that can beat some men. Not all women can beat some men. I mean come on. It's time we stop deceiving ourselves.
Men are taller on average. True?
Men are faster on average. True? (Just check the olympic track records).
Men are stronger on average. True? (check the weightlifting records).

Speed, strength and reach are (the first two mainly) have a large say in the way a fight turns out. If men on average posess the first 2 qualities in higher quantities than women, why shouldn't they win most of the time?

I say equivalent, but not equal.

[RichieRich]

I think were' all arguing different things..

Most of us will accept that
Between an "Average" man and woman, the Man probably has the edge because of the factors scarlet pointed out and the differences in the averages between the sexes. People will say that weapons are the great equalizer and this may be true, but if you were to pick 5 men and 5 women of the street, I know what odds a bookmaker would give. Of course, with SKILLED opponents, it may be different... I think Pats original point that I for one lost is "If they are equally skilled"...

If you take skill to mean "Total ability", i.e. the combination of training, athletic prowess, attitude and any sexual advantage that may or may not exist then if they are equal, they should be evenly matched and the result not a forgone conclusion.

This begs such questions as
If you were to take 50 men and 50 women and train them equally for 2 years and then test them, would the ranking be skewed by gender? Now of course this is hard to measure, because men tend to be bigger. If you saw bigger beating smaller, with women of a certain size having parity with the men you could argue “no – gender is not an issue,”, although there would still be a multicolinearity issue with size and gender (proven). People here have also advocated that with weapons, size is not an advantage. This may be true.

I think a modern society should allow people to compete how they want, and should offer the same support to any group. I think that fact that currently MA is male dominated may be an issue, but is probably a different subject.

But I will make this point. Generally, as sexes, Women are better at some things, Men at others, of course these are averages of billions of people and any one person can be anywhere on the scale, but non the less the skewing is real, and most scientists will agree.

This skewing can come from “Nurture or Nature” as psychologists suggest. “Nurture” would be upbringing, societal norms and value systems etc. e.g. – boys play with guns, girls play with dolls. THIS CAN BE CHANGED through time as society evolves. “Nature” would be genetic – Men do tend to be bigger, there are body differences to accommodate our reproductive differences, etc. When asked “Nurture or Nature”, most psychologists will say “Both”. There’s a LOT of reading out there to enjoy on the subject.

Men and women are EQUAL but DIFFERENT, and there is a sexual aptitude bias that favours women in some things and men in others. The French say “Vive la difference”, and I concur. Look, I’m agreeing with the French now! Crazy times indeed. :p



This took me ages to type! Let’s afford everyone the same opportunities, but not let Political Correctness come in the way of rational thought. I appreciate there is an underlying equality issue and that for a long time there was not equality, if there even is today. I for one am happy to embrace women as my equals. Aww, I’m just happy to embrace women.

[Mrs Owt]

Hello everyone, let me introduce myself as Lucy O'Malley as my login has not activated yet, so I am forcing Pat to let me use his login. :Angel:

Ok here we go...... :woo:

I can tell you, no man will ever beat me in weapons or empty hand combat. :D

Yes, this is a fact and it has been proven. I keep proving it over and over again.

All my male opponents are now just statistics, many have become clinical statistics the others, scientific experiments. Which group would you like to join? ;)

You can ask any man that has met me, if they will willingly step in the ring with me and I can assure you their answer will be hesitant. Not because I am a women, but because most of them have already been on the receiving end of my stick or fist or they have simply seen me fight and of course do not want to be beaten by a women as it is very embarrassing, isn't it boyz...you know who you are :cry:

I am good at anything I choose to be good at. I do not choose to be good at sewing, but I know many men who are.

I agree, reach is important for men, that is why they invented viagra :rolleyes:

But on a more serious note, as far as I am concerned, to be good at any range, style or technique you need to practice it correctly. This can incorperate training against different people with different strengths. To be good at any technique or range you need to train against different strengths, height, reach and builds this includes both genders. Once you perfect your techniques it becomes skill, not aggression, strength and these supposedly magical visions that many men seem to think they have.(I call this ego).

I consider myself to be very good at close range combat. This started as a preference, but then I had to perfect it against long range fighters of both genders in order to have the ability to close the gap regardless of range to reach my comfort area where I can dominate due to size and reach (Not gender) But I have trained myself to overcome all situations that could arise in combat.

So fighting men competatively or in any situation with or without weapons does not concern me at all. And to answer the original question that Pat posted, I do believe women should fight in the same division as the men on a competative level as at the end of the day weapons based combat is based on skill not strength or gender and I am good. :love:

Lots of love :love:

Lucy O'Malley

3 times world full contact stickfighting champion.
oh yeah! 5 European titles, 18 British titles.
Former British Vale Tudo Champion
The only female member of the Black Eagle Society (No Rules, No Armour, No Ego's, No Weight Divisions or Gender Categorisation) Stickfighting Group (akin to your Dog Brothers group).
4 years working as a door supervisor (Bouncer) in pubs, clubs and bars. :woo: :woo:
I WANT TO MEET LUCY O'MALLEY!!! She is my new hero!

[Scarlet Mist]

Yeah, I wanna meet her too. Fancy a spar Lucy?

[stickgirl]

Hiya
:p
As the name suggests, i am of the female persuasion and also stickfight (well i am actually retired now).
i couldnt resist replying to this thread

Richie rich said that women should be fighting the men? been there and done that as have any of the women who have fought for wekaf uk.

Due to the small numbers of women fighting it is common practise for a woman to fight in the mens divisions, and more than often beat them. I have had fights rigged so that a male fighter avoids sparring with me as i have repeatedly beaten him in other matches (british opens against a feller called ash), but i havent just competed at uk level but also at european level, i took a 3 round match against an italian coach to 4 rounds and it resulted in a split decision with him gaining the fight, however i had the dutch judge come over to me to say that i by far exceled over the other fight, now im 5ft3 small build and he outweighed me easily by 3-4 stone.
also worth mentioning is jodie grist who also fought in the euro open weight and exceled against the male fighters that she fought and beat. plus rosie stannings who always fights in the mens division and lucy omalley, who really is as scary and blindingly excellent as she says.

Its not a womens ability or lack there of, but how they train and their instructers attitude toward them. many instructers doubt the womens ability and never allow them to fulfil their potential, how can women over come obstacles such as these when they are so pigone holed?? i have great respect for the italian that i fought against as he did not hold back against me despite his social values.

so many men say they hold back against a women as they feel its not right to hit them, but imagine if your wife/daughter, loved one is raped, wouldnt you give anything to turn back time in order to give them the abiltiy to defend themselves?? yet you hold back on the women who have the guts (and believe me it takes alot to enter a male dominated area such a dojo) denying them the right to learn to defend themselves properly because they are just to pretty to be hit or social constraints make you believe its not right?? if a womens chooses to join an all women class then fine, but if a woman joins a mixed class then you should give her the respect she deserves, yes she may not be able to take a hit at first but your average man off the street wouldnt be able to take a hit as well if its delivered by a hard training thai boxer/mma of fma'ist.

and to those who believe that kali was developed by a blind goddess are you not demeaning your own sport by saying that women cant handle a weapon as well as a man

i can and will defend myself and i can and have beaten men
as have women for generations
and as they will do in the future

respect and love

stickgirl

[BH Alexander]

I can recall my first tournament. I was practicing shotokan at the time. I was doing decently in katas and fighting, but when it came down to it they didnt have many people in my age group. So my last opponent was a girl. she was a purple belt which didnt exist in my dojo so im not sure if she was higher or lower than me i was a green belt at the time, but anyway i remember getting owned by this said girl. Now i wasn't "great" but i could hold my own and i was doing well so far, but i got only one point on this girl, and well lets just say i went home with 2nd. i def had a good 10lbs and sum change on this girl, but i still lost. So i guess men vs women matches arent so bad.

[RichieRich]

Hiya
:p
As the name suggests, i am of the female persuasion and also stickfight (well i am actually retired now).
i couldnt resist replying to this thread

Richie rich said that women should be fighting the men? been there and done that as have any of the women who have fought for wekaf uk.

Due to the small numbers of women fighting it is common practise for a woman to fight in the mens divisions, and more than often beat them. I have had fights rigged so that a male fighter avoids sparring with me as i have repeatedly beaten him in other matches (british opens against a feller called ash), but i havent just competed at uk level but also at european level, i took a 3 round match against an italian coach to 4 rounds and it resulted in a split decision with him gaining the fight, however i had the dutch judge come over to me to say that i by far exceled over the other fight, now im 5ft3 small build and he outweighed me easily by 3-4 stone.
also worth mentioning is jodie grist who also fought in the euro open weight and exceled against the male fighters that she fought and beat. plus rosie stannings who always fights in the mens division and lucy omalley, who really is as scary and blindingly excellent as she says.

Its not a womens ability or lack there of, but how they train and their instructers attitude toward them. many instructers doubt the womens ability and never allow them to fulfil their potential, how can women over come obstacles such as these when they are so pigone holed?? i have great respect for the italian that i fought against as he did not hold back against me despite his social values.

so many men say they hold back against a women as they feel its not right to hit them, but imagine if your wife/daughter, loved one is raped, wouldnt you give anything to turn back time in order to give them the abiltiy to defend themselves?? yet you hold back on the women who have the guts (and believe me it takes alot to enter a male dominated area such a dojo) denying them the right to learn to defend themselves properly because they are just to pretty to be hit or social constraints make you believe its not right?? if a womens chooses to join an all women class then fine, but if a woman joins a mixed class then you should give her the respect she deserves, yes she may not be able to take a hit at first but your average man off the street wouldnt be able to take a hit as well if its delivered by a hard training thai boxer/mma of fma'ist.

and to those who believe that kali was developed by a blind goddess are you not demeaning your own sport by saying that women cant handle a weapon as well as a man

i can and will defend myself and i can and have beaten men
as have women for generations
and as they will do in the future

respect and love

stickgirl
Stickgirl - there are some women who can fight with men.. but my point was men have inherent genetic advantages. I'm not advaocating different training if you can hang ith the guys good for you, but you yourself have adressed the diffences in your post. If you beleive Kali was developed my a blind godess then that's great but doesn't really add much credability in my eyes.

I'm all for self defense for women and believe martial arts are a great detterent and defense from would be assailants.

[Pat OMalley]

Yeah, I wanna meet her too. Fancy a spar Lucy? I will get her to answer you later in the week as she is busy at the moment. But I am sure she will spar you after she has my next kid, especially if you pay the airflights to Jamaca.

[Pat OMalley]

No no no. NO! Women and men are not completely equal. No 2 men are completely equal, be it size, strength or speed.

But take 1 man and 1 woman of equal weight and ability, who wins????

There is onlyone way to find out, spar.

Oh by the way RichieRich, I actually liked you last post that you took so long to write, it had a lot of valid points.

We have just got back from a long trip so Lucy is resting at the moment, but I am sure she will log on later in the week to give her points, especially as we have just had an e-mail to confirm her OWN account is now open.

Mabuhay


Pat

[RichieRich]

Cheers Pat. How long until The OMalley clan are due to be +1?

[Pat OMalley]

Hey Stickgirl,
Me thinks me knows you more than very well, PM me. :love:
Me thinks I have had more than a slight hand in training you??? :rolleyes:

All the best


Pat.

[Pat OMalley]

Cheers Pat. How long until The OMalley clan are due to be +1?
Due 2nd week in Jan 05. Find out soon if it is a boy or girl, Lucy informs me that girls are trouble and if it is and she takes after her mother, well all I can say is us poor boys in the house are in trouble.

Pat

[stickgirl]

hiya



i dont believe the blind goddess thing, but alot of "kali" practioners do (mainly american, no offence), it was just to highlight some practioners beliefs.

Yes there are differences between men and women that cannot be denied but the question was about women in fma, and in my opinion a women can hold her own in this sport against men, including those bigger than themselves. When i first started martial arts i was your typical cant do it/giggle all the time girl, found it very difficult to pick up and was a walking clumsy disaster zone, however my instructers were fantastic and saw past this and gave me the confidence in my own ability, which so many girls lack in the dojo and therefore dont build the skill levels to match the men.

yes men may be more inclined to war, good for them if they find that something to be soo proud off, but you put any womens child in danger and she will fight tooth and nail for them, thats called instinct.

it takes guts for women to go to a martial arts class and men should encourage and work with them in order to build there abilities, regardless of their skill levels, everyone starts somewhere.

kisses
stick girl

[RichieRich]

hiya



i dont believe the blind goddess thing, but alot of "kali" practioners do (mainly american, no offence), it was just to highlight some practioners beliefs.

Yes there are differences between men and women that cannot be denied but the question was about women in fma, and in my opinion a women can hold her own in this sport against men, including those bigger than themselves. When i first started martial arts i was your typical cant do it/giggle all the time girl, found it very difficult to pick up and was a walking clumsy disaster zone, however my instructers were fantastic and saw past this and gave me the confidence in my own ability, which so many girls lack in the dojo and therefore dont build the skill levels to match the men.

yes men may be more inclined to war, good for them if they find that something to be soo proud off, but you put any womens child in danger and she will fight tooth and nail for them, thats called instinct.

it takes guts for women to go to a martial arts class and men should encourage and work with them in order to build there abilities, regardless of their skill levels, everyone starts somewhere.

kisses
stick girl

I'm not disagreeing - most men would fight tooth and nail for their kids too.. I don't think its war per see, just a throwback to Darwinistic forces. Competative is good for the species as a whole.

[stickgirl]

it was more for scarlett than for you.
i used to be very hot headed over this discussion, but have learned to call it down.
No matter how much you argue, people will always under estimate womens abilities.
But then everyone is entitled to their own beliefs
in the dawin theme, if it is survival of the fittest and women were as weak as some men choose to believe wouldnt women have died out millenia ago and men have found some way of reproducing, like the multi sex slug or the sea horse...he he
that can be taken as seriously or as stupidly as you like ;)

[Pat OMalley]

Oh come on Stickgirl, If it were no for us men, who would cut the grass ;)

[RichieRich]

*raises hand*

I can remove spiders from the bathroom.

Can't pick up after myself, though. :(
I'm also a black belt in "not sharing the remote control"

[stickgirl]

Im not anti men
they have their uses
;)

im not a militant feminist either, they can be just as bad as the pig headed men.

[RichieRich]

im not a militant feminist either, they can be just as bad as the pig headed men.

Aww, I had this lovely mental image of you in your dungarees, short hair, comfortable shoes, driving an 18 wheeler :love:

[Pat OMalley]

Aww, I had this lovely mental image of you in your dungarees, short hair, comfortable shoes, driving an 18 wheeler :love:

Calm down stickgirl, No, No, pleeeeese put that stick down, you said you are a much clamer person now. Think happpy happy thoughts :Angel:

[Scarlet Mist]

it was more for scarlett than for you.
i used to be very hot headed over this discussion, but have learned to call it down.
No matter how much you argue, people will always under estimate womens abilities.
But then everyone is entitled to their own beliefs
in the dawin theme, if it is survival of the fittest and women were as weak as some men choose to believe wouldnt women have died out millenia ago and men have found some way of reproducing, like the multi sex slug or the sea horse...he he
that can be taken as seriously or as stupidly as you like ;)

Hello Stickgirl (nice name by the way).

I think you've labelled me as a sexist pig, I am not. I train with women and I encourage them and what not. Besides, once sparring starts, and the mask is pulled down, I can't really see who's under it ... woman or not. I wouldn't have time to look carefully anyway, I'd be distracted by the sticks flying all over the place. So what I'm saying is that I spar opponents, not men or women.
And I don't underestimate women's abilities. I evaluate the abilities of each opponent individually, it my experiece, the women are usually not as good fighters as the men. That's a fact. You said when you first started you were giggly and clumsy, as the stereotype would suggest? Well, when I first started I learned to wield my sticks in about a week - like the typical male stereotype maybe? See, on average most men are geared to combat, that's not to say women can't fight. They just have to make more changes. You had to make changes right? You had to un-giggle yourself right? There we go ... that's all I have to say ... so far :D

[Pat OMalley]

They just have to make more changes. You had to make changes right? You had to un-giggle yourself right? There we go ... that's all I have to say ... so far :D

Most men have to un-ego themselves in order to become a good fighter right? :)

As a matter of fact we all have to un-something ourself when we first walk into a class. :o

Anyone male or female can learn to weild a stick in about a minute but to be able to know how to fight with one and master it's skills takes years. It took me one second to learn how to hit someone with a stick but years to master my stick combat skills, as a matter of fact I am still trying to master them everyday. A week to weild yes anyone can do that, a week to really know how to really fight with them no. Impossible! :)

[Scarlet Mist]

I think you misunderstood me, Pat. All I was trying to say, was that the average man has to do less "un-somethinging" than the average woman.
Also, what I meant by the "it took me a week" statement was that men on average get used to the weapons more quickly than the women, on average.

And why is ego a bad thing? Ego has saved my ass many time before.

[Pat OMalley]

I think you misunderstood me, Pat. All I was trying to say, was that the average man has to do less "un-somethinging" than the average woman.
"Well, why did you not say!!! But, I beg still to differ". :)
I have found in my 15 years+ of teaching that it can take a person longer to learn something than another person regardless of gender. I have also found that if your attitude is that you treat all of your students the same and train them exactley the same they will progress at the same rate (this is based not on scientific fact but on actual real expeariance), therefore if you train a woman the same way as a man she will if trained properly fight the same unless his/her personality prevents it.

Also, what I meant by the "it took me a week" statement was that men on average get used to the weapons more quickly than the women, on average. Again I beg to differ and again i know from personal expeariance, "if trained the same, they will perform the same".

And why is ego a bad thing? Ego has saved my ass many time before. I never said it was a bad thing, ego won me over 40 full contact titles (I won them for myself, not my club, instructor or country). You have to have an ego to acheive anything in life, but I have found for men to become good competitors/fighters, they have to un-ego themselves, meaning that they have to accept that defeat is a thing that can happen 50% of the time in each and every conflict, many men cannot accept the fact that defeat can and will happen at some stage, and I have found that the ones who think it cant happen all too often find that it happens quicker for them than it does for the rest, they then give up and sulk.

Cheers

Pat

[Marcie Harding]

am I too late to join this debate? anyway here goes ...

Of course women should fight men in the FM arts - and any art for that matter if they want to....

surely - skill and fighting spirit are the two main attributes needed for competition? and in most arts I would guess this means there really should be no need for gender or weight categories? Categories start to exist when there are rules of engagement - it seems in the filipino arts there are generally less rules ?

in the Warriors Eskrima system (Institute of Filipino Mattial Arts - headed in the UK by Guro Krishna Godhania) several women have acheived apprentice instructor level (black belt) which has full contact sparring (as real as possible in modern society) with and without weapons as part of the syllabus and the black belt grading....

I might add that during the grading they fight any instructor who happens to be available and normally give a very good account of themselves. In one memorable grading my friend Ninette had to be dragged from one instructor who she was repeatedly punching in the head after taking him to ground - a real case of red mist!

As society moves forward and more and more women realise that opportunities exist for them to express themselves in sports and martial arts we will see the gap close between women and men. Look at how this has happened for example in athletics and marathon running. how many guys out there would bet on beating Paula Radcliff over ten or twenty miles?

Of course the "average" guy is bigger and stronger than the "average" girl but more and more exceptional ladies will join the Arts and continue to close the gaps and often overtake.

Take care everyone and lets hope we only use our arts where it's fun and not where it's needed.

Marcie

[Pat OMalley]

Well Put, could not have said it better myself

[Scarlet Mist]

I agree with everything you said, except for the "gap closing". I see no change in the athletic records. The fastest man is still a whole second faster than the fastest woman.

[KickChick]

Thank you Marcie! :)

I knew I could count on you to add some female FMA perspective to this discussion ..... (be sure to check out her web site !!!)

BTW .... Welcome to MAP! :D

[Scarlet Mist]

You know, when I saw "Last Post by KickChick" I thought for sure this thread was closed. Or am I just predicting the future? :D

[KickChick]

I take my moderating responsibilities a bit more serious than that my dear Scarlet.... (and I bet I am faster than you too !! :D )

[Scarlet Mist]

You mean faster in terms of outrunning me, or faster in terms of out kicking me? ... Because I won't challenge you on either :D

[Marcie Harding]

I agree with everything you said, except for the "gap closing". I see no change in the athletic records. The fastest man is still a whole second faster than the fastest woman.


Thanks for all of your supportive replies! However, Scarlet I still beg to differ on "except" bit!! Here goes....

And that one second gap twenty or thirty years ago would have been two three, four seconds. ...who knows?

The lady Golfer ( I forget her name, Laura something) competed with the men and came in the top ten I think...

And I can't think of any guy that would have been able to compete with Olga Corbett or Nadia Comeneczski (not sure about the spelling on that one) in thier gymnastic disciplines...

Torvill and Dean? Well half was female!

It's all about opportunity. My sister is a primary school teacher and she coaches touch rugby. The girls love it more than the boys. Ten years ago this would not have been available. Physical sports for girls were not encouraged. Women generally grew up with little or no chance of expressing themselves physically or developing much co-ordination. In the sixties and seventies it was the boys who learnt to drive cars at seventeen and not the girls. That's why there aren't yet many female rally drivers or racing drivers. The opportunity then wasn't taken as it is now.

Lets have another debate in fifty years. I may have stopped doing Martial Arts by then and just be walkng up mountains, after all, I'll only be 94. But I'll be proven right on this one

[Scarlet Mist]

Thanks for all of your supportive replies! However, Scarlet I still beg to differ on "except" bit!! Here goes....

And that one second gap twenty or thirty years ago would have been two three, four seconds. ...who knows?

The lady Golfer ( I forget her name, Laura something) competed with the men and came in the top ten I think...

And I can't think of any guy that would have been able to compete with Olga Corbett or Nadia Comeneczski (not sure about the spelling on that one) in thier gymnastic disciplines...

Torvill and Dean? Well half was female!

It's all about opportunity. My sister is a primary school teacher and she coaches touch rugby. The girls love it more than the boys. Ten years ago this would not have been available. Physical sports for girls were not encouraged. Women generally grew up with little or no chance of expressing themselves physically or developing much co-ordination. In the sixties and seventies it was the boys who learnt to drive cars at seventeen and not the girls. That's why there aren't yet many female rally drivers or racing drivers. The opportunity then wasn't taken as it is now.

Lets have another debate in fifty years. I may have stopped doing Martial Arts by then and just be walkng up mountains, after all, I'll only be 94. But I'll be proven right on this one

Women train just as hard as men in athletics, and yet the men still run faster. There is a genetic limit, and you can't break it unless you alter your genes. As for the female golfer competing and coming in the top ten, you think ... that's just grabbing at straws the way I see it. It seems that the only sports that are not male dominated are those that have separate divisions for men and women ... which explains why almost all sports have separate divisions. :D

[KickChick]

Women train just as hard as men in athletics, and yet the men still run faster.

Let's make some "fair" comparisons here now!

Certainly you would think that the very best male sprinter would be faster than the top most female. ;)

Leroy Burrell, who stands 6 feet tall, currently holds the men's world record for 100 meters at 9.85 seconds, which turns out to be a velocity of 5.55 heights per second.
Now, Florence Griffith-Joyner, who stands 5'6-1/2' tall, holds the women's world record for 100 meters with a time of 10.49 seconds, which is a speed of 5.64 heights per second. Using fair velocity comparisons (in heights per second, not meters per second), the fastest woman in the world is almost 2 per cent faster than the quickest man!

I can give you some other studies which support the idea that women are equal to or better than men as long as fair comparisons are made.

But we're not discussing "sprinting" here.... and that is why I invited Marcie here to discuss her experience as a female involved in FMA.

[RichieRich]

yeah, and midgets could slam dunk if they were bigger...
*holds head in hands at nonsense being spouted*

"Congratulations, Mr. Smith - you're the worlds fastest man - in the category of asmatic couch potato. If you were fit and fast you'd be awesome! Here's your gold medal."

1) maybe someone should read about the law of diminishing returns...
2) How come shaq isn't the worlds fastest man if height and not gender is the determinant?
3) are midgets really the worlds best basketballers?
4) There are 5' men that can run the 100 a fraction of a send slower - that doesn't bode well for women, does it..
5) If I could hop the 100 in 18 secs, would that make me the worlds fastest man?

I'm just poking fun at this spurious logic, that's all :p

having said that, everyone can do everything, its the journey not the destinantion and all MA's are equal. :D

[Marcie Harding]

My Dear Scarlet

Which bit didn't you understand ? Oh I see... all of it!

No grasping at straws from me - the lady golfers' achievement that I couldn't remember exactly was because I just thought it was unremarkable when I heard about it!

Top climbers and mountaineers are more examples - the top free climbers seem to be women, Alison Hargreaves was as good a mountaineer as any man - she summitted everest without oxygen and very quickly .... Female mountaineers 50 years ago - No I don't think so!

I assure you it is about opportunity and development and as I said the gap is closing and will continue to do so. Genetics? well as women develop (and I guess evolve too) they may even overtake men...

....and Scarlet my dear if you don't believe it then Frankly I dont give a damn!

Take care train hard and remember this famous quote:

Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily, this is not difficult.

[Scarlet Mist]

Let's make some "fair" comparisons here now!

Certainly you would think that the very best male sprinter would be faster than the top most female. ;)

Leroy Burrell, who stands 6 feet tall, currently holds the men's world record for 100 meters at 9.85 seconds, which turns out to be a velocity of 5.55 heights per second.
Now, Florence Griffith-Joyner, who stands 5'6-1/2' tall, holds the women's world record for 100 meters with a time of 10.49 seconds, which is a speed of 5.64 heights per second. Using fair velocity comparisons (in heights per second, not meters per second), the fastest woman in the world is almost 2 per cent faster than the quickest man!

I can give you some other studies which support the idea that women are equal to or better than men as long as fair comparisons are made.

But we're not discussing "sprinting" here.... and that is why I invited Marcie here to discuss her experience as a female involved in FMA.

KC, that is absolutely shocking. I think this is the first time I've seen that you've utterly disregarded logic in an argument. But let me not get into that, I'll just say 1) the men's record is 9.79 held by Tim Montgomery, and 2) Donald Quarrie is shorter than Florence Griffith Joiner, and he ran 9.9 secs!! Well there goes that argument...


And my dear Marcie, you seem to be using words like "seem to be" too much, the top mountain climbers "seem to be women", put the facts up and put the crack down.
As for this quote "Take care train hard and remember this famous quote:

Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily, this is not difficult."
It's obviously a) overly feminist b) unrealistic, shallow and c) silly
I'll retract my statement when a woman runs the 100m in 4.89 secs. ;)

[Pat OMalley]

Hi all,
Well now we are comapring runners and climbers, I wish someone would read the original post :( (Bangs his head against the wall)
My point was this. AS ESKRIMA / KALI / ARNIS IS A WEAPONS BASED ART, SHOULD WOMEN COMPETE ON AN EQUAL BASIS AS ALL WHO REALLY KNOW THEIR WEAPONS KNOW THAT A WEAPON HAS NO REGARDS TO WHAT GENDER YOU ARE, OR HOW STRONG YOU ARE, IT IS ALL A MATTER OF TECHNIQUE AND EXPEARIANCE.
Based on personal expeariance I KNOW that womenif trained correctly can and do compete on an equal level when it comes to "weapons combat", remember I said WEAPONS COMBAT, not running, glof, pool, darts or even that very weird sport syncronised swimming :D .

So guys, in your infinite weapons combat expeariance what do you think and feel when it comes to the male verses the female, bearing in mind a child can kill you with a knife, lets have some sensible responces like the ones we have already had from the more expearianced male FMAers on this thread.

Phew, sorry, I just had to get that out ;)

Best regards to all


Pat

[Scarlet Mist]

Sorry about that, Pat. But I'm like an addict, when I see a crackpot, I gotta blaze up! ahahhahahahhaah. ;)

Yes, weapons are great equalizers, but there is the reach factor that I mentioned before. More reach = staying out of range and doing some "head bussing". But weapons do reduce bodily advantages, but many of these advantages still remain. I feel that women and men should compete in one league as long as the women are able to handle it (and especially if there's some Dumog in there :D ). While we're on the topic during stick knife sparring (wooden dagger so we don't eviscerate each other) one of the shorter girls I was sparring with accidentally slid her knife under my armour and supposedly stabbed me in the nuts. I didn't really feel anything so, I guessed the knife glanced off, but she said she felt "my stuff move". Go figure :rolleyes:

[Pat OMalley]

Yes, weapons are great equalizers, but there is the reach factor that I mentioned before.

Hi Scarlet,
Nice reply :woo: But what if the woman you are against is better at close range than you are at long, and if she is shorter your reach has to travel just that bit longer to connect which may give her the time to close the gap and woop some serious butt :eek: , She may even be better at Dumog :D

Worth thinking about eh! :D

[RichieRich]

Hi all,
Well now we are comapring runners and climbers, I wish someone would read the original post :( (Bangs his head against the wall)
My point was this. AS ESKRIMA / KALI / ARNIS IS A WEAPONS BASED ART, SHOULD WOMEN COMPETE ON AN EQUAL BASIS AS ALL WHO REALLY KNOW THEIR WEAPONS KNOW THAT A WEAPON HAS NO REGARDS TO WHAT GENDER YOU ARE, OR HOW STRONG YOU ARE, IT IS ALL A MATTER OF TECHNIQUE AND EXPEARIANCE.
Based on personal expeariance I KNOW that womenif trained correctly can and do compete on an equal level when it comes to "weapons combat", remember I said WEAPONS COMBAT, not running, glof, pool, darts or even that very weird sport syncronised swimming :D .

So guys, in your infinite weapons combat expeariance what do you think and feel when it comes to the male verses the female, bearing in mind a child can kill you with a knife, lets have some sensible responces like the ones we have already had from the more expearianced male FMAers on this thread.

Phew, sorry, I just had to get that out ;)

Best regards to all


Pat

Alright fella - are you a dad for the second time yet?
I had to take exception to the bad logic on offer, thats all!

**Off topic**

What do you think about this..
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighter.html

[YODA]

And my dear Marcie, you seem to be using words like "seem to be" too much, the top mountain climbers "seem to be women", put the facts up and put the crack down.

Sorry about that, Pat. But I'm like an addict, when I see a crackpot, I gotta blaze up! ahahhahahahhaah.
SM: You're posts and general demeanor seem to be getting more and more antagonistic every day. I suggest you take a chill pill before you step any further over the line.

[Pat OMalley]

Alright fella - are you a dad for the second time yet?
I had to take exception to the bad logic on offer, thats all!

**Off topic**

What do you think about this..
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighter.html

No Prob's RichieRich,
Not a dad again untill January, and guess what we found out that the chances are it's going to be :eek: Yep you guessed it :love: A girl :cool:
Yet another female in the family that will learn to kick the old O'Malley but :cry:

Hey with all your logic maybe you are a Vulcan and just don't know it yet :D

[Pat OMalley]

Hi Scarlet,
Nice reply :woo: But what if the woman you are against is better at close range than you are at long, and if she is shorter your reach has to travel just that bit longer to connect which may give her the time to close the gap and woop some serious butt :eek: , She may even be better at Dumog :D

Worth thinking about eh! :D

God forbid, what if she is even better at long range too:eek:

[RichieRich]

No Prob's RichieRich,
Not a dad again untill January, and guess what we found out that the chances are it's going to be :eek: Yep you guessed it :love: A girl :cool:
Yet another female in the family that will learn to kick the old O'Malley but :cry:

Hey with all your logic maybe you are a Vulcan and just don't know it yet :D

You'll be like a "bond Villain" in your old age - surrounded by deadly female protectors! :D

[Pat OMalley]

You'll be like a "bond Villain" in your old age - surrounded by deadly female protectors! :D

Hey, what a good idea, I wonder if the wife will go for triplets next time, all female of course :Angel:

[RichieRich]

SM: You're posts and general demeanor seem to be getting more and more antagonistic every day. I suggest you take a chill pill before you step any further over the line.



HAPPY BIRTHDAY MRS. O!!!!!!

Sing!!!

Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday to you,
Happy Birthday dear Mrs. O
Happy Birthday to you!!!

Wooohhhoooo. Go Mrs. O!!

*tries to lighten everyone's mood a litte*
Remeber kids - the difference between a pat on the back an a kick up the bottom is... is...





....5 virtibrae! :D

[RichieRich]

You're starting an army, aren't you Pat? :D

[Pat OMalley]

*tries to lighten everyone's mood a litte*
Remeber kids - the difference between a pat on the back an a kick up the bottom is... is...





....5 virtibrae! :D

How did you know it was my Birthday a few days ago, has my wife been gossiping again :eek: (put's his head in his hands and thinks 43, 43, my god I'm 23 again). :cry:

[RichieRich]

How did you know it was my Birthday a few days ago, has my wife been gossiping again :eek: (put's his head in his hands and thinks 43, 43, my god I'm 23 again). :cry:

Sorry I missed it -
A belated VERY happy Birthday, Pat!

[Pat OMalley]

You'll be like a "bond Villain" in your old age - surrounded by deadly female protectors! :D

Hey, Lucy, I think they are on to us :woo:

Don't tell them that the Government has asked us to help them clone the new 21st Century British Special Forces :woo: :woo: :woo:

[RichieRich]

Hey, Lucy, I think they are on to us :woo:

Don't tell them that the Government has asked us to help them clone the new 21st Century British Special Forces :woo: :woo: :woo:

Hurry up and re-take America so I can be Govenor! :D

[Scarlet Mist]

Hi Scarlet,
Nice reply :woo: But what if the woman you are against is better at close range than you are at long, and if she is shorter your reach has to travel just that bit longer to connect which may give her the time to close the gap and woop some serious butt :eek: , She may even be better at Dumog :D

Worth thinking about eh! :D

Ohh yeah, I've been thinking about it a lot. This guy I spar with is just a little shorter than I am, and my reach is greater than his. He started using thrusts to dislodge my helmet so it would block my vision so he'd have a much better chance getting in. I've also been told that I back up too much - but why not when you can smack someone from a bit off without giving them the same chance. The idea I have is to not let them get too close. So if said opponent is in at close range, then I back up so it's at long range again. And if said opponent can keep the range short I have to find a new tactic. As for Dumog, I haven't been rolling that much, but I figure being shorter is better if your on the ground. Right??

[Lucy O'Malley]

What if, what if, what if, what if.....................

What if I can run faster than you, jump higher than you, fight harder than you, shoot fireballs out my ass and have bolts of lightning coming out my eyes, we could go on all day.

I would like to say that I have been watching this thread from afar trying not to get involved as it will just go on and on with examples and what if's, from sports that have no bearing to putting us ladies back to the kitchen sink and taking away our luxuries such as dishwashers.

But, i will point out that the more experienced FMAer's and old hands seem to be in favour of women sparring men on an equal basis....it would seem they have a form of respect for us, perhaps this is gained from personal experience and having travelled out of the comfort of their own club and armchair meeting new people including experienced female FMAer's.

In my opinion, you will get the women that just trains for fun and never intends to become a stong or aggresive contender, they just want to learn something, whether it is to socialise or learn to defend themselves. But there is also many men with the same approach to training. What's wrong with that?

Within any club though, you are going to learn every members strengths and weaknesses when you see them on a regular basis, thus making it easy to counter and pre-empt strikes and learn which ranges to use on a regular basis. And often people become cockier towards the female members because they secretly want to make them look weaker and to be honest, men do not want women to defeat them at any level of training. So it is easy to say that the women you know are not as strong and fast, with less reactions and reach, because you probably already know what they are going to do, but I bet you can have the same opinion of the men in your class, if you are honest, that is.

Perhaps try going to competitions and other clubs to seek out new blood. Including the females. You may be surprised at your lack of ability when facing a complete stranger for the first time regardless of gender. You cannot even begin to read their weaknesses until you have sparred with them for at least a couple of minutes, in which time you could be surprisingly beaten. It is not the gender behind the weapon, it is the intent of the person behind the weapon that decides whether you win or lose.

Facing new people on a regular basis teaches you to learn faster and adapt to each opponent as an individual. This is the hardest concept to learn in any martial art. I personally feel I am good at this, as I have trained at different clubs and i have sparred with complete strangers and competed at top levels against men and women all over the world for many years and teach all ages genders and mental abilities and I always earn respect because i treat and train them as individuals rather than placing them into categories. I can hold back when I want to and open up when required.

But to state a basic obvious fact, there is alot less women practitioners than there is men, which really means alot of the statistics cannot be validated and obviously if you are finding all of the women in your club are weeker at FMA then they are being trained as women not as individual fighters, as everyone I have taught or trained with have been perfectly capable of giving the most experienced person a hard time....the only downfall anyone ever has is lack of experience, which can be gained with proper instruction no matter who you are or your ability. I taught a man for a while with one arm, one leg, three fingers and four toes (no Joke) and he was perfectly capable after correct training to spar full contact against other members of the class, and gave them a hard time, but he had to adapt alot of techniques and even took on double stick with his single stick techniques. So who had to over come their weaknesses....the man with one arm or the person who had never fought a person with one arm before? :confused:

I don't know if any one has noticed though, that the world in general, especially the men are becoming weaker, with this sudden view to delete competative sports (especially in schools) in favour of non-competative sports. And eveyones feelings are having to be considered before you can teach them anything. They are taking the drive, the will to suceed and the risk out of the sports...wasn't that the fun of it in the first place?

or...Is this because women are becoming more of a threat so lets get rid instead of get equal?

Also one last thing :rolleyes: Why is it in the rest of the animal world it is the female of the species that does all the hunting and protecting and it is the males that fight amongst themselves to gain the females attention?

Yet we are the only animal on the planet that seems to think that the female of the species is weaker than the male.

And by the way, I'm not just good, I am really good whatever the range :woo:

Lot of love and kisses to my world :love:

Lucy (All hail Lucy)
Bow before me you weaklings.

PS: Dear Governor of America Ritchie Rich, yes you may server under me as my guidance, when I am crowned Queen of America. :D

[Pat OMalley]

Well,What can I say,
My good lady does not respond very often, but when she does :Angel:

She tends to put her point across :woo: :woo:

[Marcie Harding]

Lucy

I wish I'd have said all of that. I'm glad you stepped in because I am in grave danger of:

1/ Getting addicted to these forums
2/ Re writing "Gone with the Wind"
3/ Taking up Golf

Farewell everyone as I will never reply to a thread again.

Well until next time anyway!

Marcie

ps how about a thread called "Should Men be allowed to take part in FMA tournaments"?

[Pat OMalley]

Hey, Marcie,
If you carry on replying, I promise I will get Lucy to start the thread you mentioned, (she'll probally kill me :eek: But what the hell eh).

It's nice to see top women FMAers speask there mind, it's a shame more don't as I am sure when more do there will be no more need for threads like this.

All the best


Pat

[Scarlet Mist]

Very insightful post, Mrs. O'malley.


Also one last thing Why is it in the rest of the animal world it is the female of the species that does all the hunting and protecting and it is the males that fight amongst themselves to gain the females attention?


Hahahhahahahhahahha. That part was extremely entertaining to me. But seriously, it depends on which species you look at, the Praying Mantis, the Black Widow Spider and a few others are species in which the females eat the males after they mate. Oh, how could I forget humans, except in humans they call it names like "marriage" and "child support" :D hahaha.

Anyway, there are very many species in which the males are much stronger than the females, most of those in the animal kingdom actually. You don't hear about those because it's not remarkable - it's normal. The Lion is bigger and stronger than the lioness, the male tiger bigger than the female and a better fighter - except when they're having sex - it turns out that the male's penis is barbed and the female doesn't like this - go figure :rolleyes: :D . Same with most cats, same with dogs whether they're domesticated or coyotes. Same with birds, you probably won't notice it, unless you check musle patterns, because the males don't eat the females after they mate.

In bees, only a minute fraction of the colony is male - and all they do is sit on their asses and breed the queen (must be quite a life), of course once the queen is dead they kick the male drones out into the cold to die. Of course, all the females except for the queen are sterile, and if they stop eating a particular hormone, they change into queens. So you see, the queen subjutes all others and rules the colony with an iron fist.

My point? Behaviours in the animal kingdom are widely varied, in some species, the male is stronger, in some he is weaker, and some he's a lazy bastard that sits on his ass and breeds the queen. It just so happens, that in humans the males are bigger, taller, have more muscle mass and lots and lots of testosterone.

I think women should compete in all the tournaments they want, but really, why do you think they divided athletics into male and female sections? Because Flo Jo would place dead last at he olympics in a men's race, in her prime.

[KickChick]

I'm not listening! *fingers in ears* la la la~~~~

Thanks Lucy for getting involved (.... welcome to MAP!)

And Marcie, there is certainly nothing wrong with getting addicted to this forum :D ;) ....

Thanks girls .... !

[Scarlet Mist]

ps how about a thread called "Should Men be allowed to take part in FMA tournaments"?


I think I'll take you up on that!!

[KickChick]

RichieRich .... perhaps you can do your teasing elsewhere because frankly if you cannot seriously discuss this topic (Women & FMA) without bringing your side notes into discussion here.... then this thread will be closed.

[RichieRich]

RichieRich .... perhaps you can do your teasing elsewhere because frankly if you cannot seriously discuss this topic (Women & FMA) without bringing your side notes into discussion here.... then this thread will be closed.


Sorry KickChick - the "offending" post is gone. I'll keep it to "heights per second" in future....



:rolleyes:

[Kanku]

Do you think that the woman in the FMA should be treated any different than the men when it comes to testing their skills and do you think that a male and a female of equal skill can and should sparr their skills in order to test each other.


I don't see why there can't be a mixed division as long as there are weight and belt divisions. You wouldn't expect a 50kg White belt to go up against a 80kg black or brown belt so as long as all rules are standardised I shouldn't think that there would be a problem

[Scarlet Mist]

RichieRich .... perhaps you can do your teasing elsewhere because frankly if you cannot seriously discuss this topic (Women & FMA) without bringing your side notes into discussion here.... then this thread will be closed.

Don't you think that's a little over the top, KC. A little fun never hurt anybody, and aren't we discussing it seriously otherwise?
Why are the good threads always closed?

[KickChick]

My patience is running thin with you also my dear Scarlet.

My position here is Global Moderator.... you don't like the way we keep things civil then you can go elsewhere.

Perhaps you also need to read MAP's T.O.S. again too!

[Tika]

Man, Im very glad I was not here while this thread was kicking...I just have to say thanks to Lucy and Marcie...excellent posts...please keep postin all over the place, I look forward to hearing what you have to say... *double tackle*...... *tackles Pat and KickChick too* ... did I miss anyone?

[RubyMoon]

Don't you think that's a little over the top, KC. A little fun never hurt anybody, and aren't we discussing it seriously otherwise?
Why are the good threads always closed?KickChick was right on the money. The comments were inappropriate, especially considering the nature of the thread. Condescending remarks are condescending even when thinly concealed as humor.

Kudos to all the good posters here who have made their points without resorting to archaic stereotypes and blatant chauvinism.

[Scarlet Mist]

My patience is running thin with you also my dear Scarlet.

My position here is Global Moderator.... you don't like the way we keep things civil then you can go elsewhere.

Perhaps you also need to read MAP's T.O.S. again too!


Maybe I do need to go Elsewhere. Cats are surely wrapped tight around here, every 50 posts I'm told to leave ... jeez ...
Just because you disagree and I don't sound like a college professor doesn't mean I shouldn't post. Or doesn it?

[YODA]

Maybe I do need to go Elsewhere. Cats are surely wrapped tight around here, every 50 posts I'm told to leave ... jeez ...
Just because you disagree and I don't sound like a college professor doesn't mean I shouldn't post. Or doesn it?
Who has asked you to leave?

[Scarlet Mist]

then you can go elsewhere.



There. Kinda sucks, you know ...

[YODA]

There. Kinda sucks, you know ...
Nope - she wasn't telling you to leave. She was saying that IF you cannot post within the Terms of Service THEN you should leave. There's a BIG difference.

That applies to everyone here.

[Lucy O'Malley]

Scarlet Mist, I think you should stop being so Pedantic. You are seriously missing the point. If your conversational skills are so far off the point, I dread to think how far adrift your stick aim is :D

Lighten up a little and understand peoples use of sarcasm, don't take it to heart. Ie. my point on the animals was just taking the micky out of everyone wandering onto other subjects, I did not need a lecture on the birds and bees.

And by the way, I don't care how good your reach is in long range, my blocking is far superior any day. :woo: :woo: Then in an instant I can close you down and have you cowering in the corner. And you will cry :cry:
The good thing about long range Is I can read it a mile away.

Don't forget I am really good. (see I bet you are really getting annoyed now)

Steamin with rage I bet.

Lighten up my little love, what you won't realize from text is some people are not even being serious in their threads, just towards the end they might say something insightful to keep it going but they are all having a laugh and a chit chat.

Sticks up :)

All my love, accept the little bit I have to put aside for my husband occasionally.

Lucy O

[YODA]

All my love, accept the little bit I have to put aside for my husband occasionally.

Lucy O
That's right - keep him hungry Lucy :D

(Sorry Pat :Angel:)

[Pat OMalley]

Jeezzz, why is everyone picking on me know :cry:

Oooop's, Oh yeah, I forgot, I started this dam thread :o

:cool: :Angel:

[Scarlet Mist]

Scarlet Mist, I think you should stop being so Pedantic. You are seriously missing the point. If your conversational skills are so far off the point, I dread to think how far adrift your stick aim is :D

Lighten up a little and understand peoples use of sarcasm, don't take it to heart. Ie. my point on the animals was just taking the micky out of everyone wandering onto other subjects, I did not need a lecture on the birds and bees.

And by the way, I don't care how good your reach is in long range, my blocking is far superior any day. :woo: :woo: Then in an instant I can close you down and have you cowering in the corner. And you will cry :cry:
The good thing about long range Is I can read it a mile away.

Don't forget I am really good. (see I bet you are really getting annoyed now)

Steamin with rage I bet.

Lighten up my little love, what you won't realize from text is some people are not even being serious in their threads, just towards the end they might say something insightful to keep it going but they are all having a laugh and a chit chat.

Sticks up :)

All my love, accept the little bit I have to put aside for my husband occasionally.

Lucy O


Lucy, Lucy, Lucy, I think you have seriously misunderstood me. :p I take very little seriously, especially not someone talking about birds and bees in an FMA thread, I simply posted to indulge myself and prevent anyone taking up another animal argument in this thread. As for you being really good - why not? If you're good you're good, but being good is no substitute for a nice big bucket of Testosterone. I'm sure you can outblock me, but I have testosterone! That, and I can sweep. :D

But really, I don't take anything seriously in these threads, because I know that at the end of the day, women still don't have large quantities of Testosterone and they still can't fight.

About the only thing that bothers me is that Self Righteous post by Ruby Moon, and her getting KickChick's backing, or is it the other way around?

[KickChick]

About the only thing that bothers me is that Self Righteous post by Ruby Moon, and her getting KickChick's backing, or is it the other way around?

Where is the self-righteousness of RubyMoon's post?

KickChick was right on the money. The comments were inappropriate, especially considering the nature of the thread. Condescending remarks are condescending even when thinly concealed as humor.

She is, how you say "backing me up", and agreeing that there is no place for bigotry, chauvinism, or inflated egos in the martial arts ...

hmmmmm, where have I see that before ?? :)

[Scarlet Mist]

Personally I think it's just cuz you don't like me :rolleyes:

[YODA]

Personally I think it's just cuz you don't like me :rolleyes:
Maybe you're right - maybe you've given her just cause.

[Tika]

But really, I don't take anything seriously in these threads, because I know that at the end of the day, women still don't have large quantities of Testosterone and they still can't fight.

Are you just trying to bait us or do you really believe that? Im really ready to unload some very rude comments right now, but I must restrain myself because of the rules. You really get me writhing, and I have a feeling you do it on purpose. I think ladies, it would be best just to leave it be. You all made excellent points. People like Scarlet and Richie Rich will never make any consessions without adding in " but women still suck " in some way or another, so whats the point?

[Scarlet Mist]

Are you just trying to bait us or do you really believe that? Im really ready to unload some very rude comments right now, but I must restrain myself because of the rules. You really get me writhing, and I have a feeling you do it on purpose. I think ladies, it would be best just to leave it be. You all made excellent points. People like Scarlet and Richie Rich will never make any consessions without adding in " but women still suck " in some way or another, so whats the point?

Tika is back on the attack again :rolleyes: . I'm not trying to say women suck (although, I think they all should :p - ok, that was a bad joke), and that post quoted was only in response to Lucy's playful post.
Why on earth is everyone all up in my grill like novocaine needles? What have I done? I state my opinions and I catch Flak like Santa Claus flying over Berlin during WW2. What's the problem really?

[Scarlet Mist]

Maybe you're right - maybe you've given her just cause.

I think the cause you speak about is that she doesn't agree with my opinions.

Why do people push packs of prunes to grow flowers?

[YODA]

Tika is back on the attack again :rolleyes: . I'm not trying to say women suck (although, I think they all should :p - ok, that was a bad joke),
Yes it was -and it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

That's TEN posts violating MAP rules that you've posted THIS WEEK.

Sin Bin - 5 Days.

[Tika]

I was not attacking you scarlet, or your opinions. I was just saying that nothing we say will ever impact what you think. And I really do think that you like to get a rise out of people. Just having a little fun. But at the expense of others. I really dont know what to say to you, either that, or I just dont feel like exurting the energy necessary to try to show you why im saying what Im saying. Im speaking more to the other women on this thread than I am to you. Trying to let it die..... lets let it die....

[Pat OMalley]

I think the cause you speak about is that she doesn't agree with my opinions.

Why do people push packs of prunes to grow flowers?

I am afraid Scarlet me old mate, you tend to step over the mark and have veiws that died out with the stoneage man. But then again when you are around 19 years old and full of your own self what can we we expect.

Oh, by the way Lucy has a very good counter to a sweep (winner of a British MMA title too :eek: ) I know, I taught her :) .

Your opinions at the end of the day have no real expeariance behind them and 90% of the people posting here (who I beleve have more expeariance in FMA than you young man) give their opinions based on expeariance not on so called testosterone.

Oh to be 19 again :D So young but so :o

Enjoy the rest young man, after all you have said I think you may need it.
(God I bet I get binned for that too, sorry all)


Mabuhay


Pat

[Lucy O'Malley]

People like Scarlet and Richie Rich will never make any consessions without adding in " but women still suck " in some way or another, so whats the point?

Just a quickie, I would like to say that Richie Rich did start off a bit mean, but I think he has lightened up during the thread and seems to be an alright geezer, I quite like him anyway. But Scarlet on the other hand, well if ever I heard a 19 year old with a girls name, what do you expect, no wonder he has to convince himself, sorry I mean us, that he has testosterone.

Sorry for having a pop at Scarlet (still a girls name) I bin myself for a week :cry:

Speak to you in a week peeps.

Lots of love

Lucy

4th Degree Chief Instructor (Arnis)

[Pat OMalley]

What the hell I'm binning myself for a week too. :eek:

Just as well were off on holiday tommorrow :D

[Knight_Errant]

what the hell?

Tikka is, again, right. Damn, tikka, could you try being wrong for a change? give the rest of us a chance? :D

[Tika]

what the hell?

Tikka is, again, right. Damn, tikka, could you try being wrong for a change? give the rest of us a chance? :D

*tackle* :D

[RichieRich]

I am afraid Scarlet me old mate, you tend to step over the mark and have veiws that died out with the stoneage man. But then again when you are around 19 years old and full of your own self what can we we expect.

Oh, by the way Lucy has a very good counter to a sweep (winner of a British MMA title too :eek: ) I know, I taught her :) .

Your opinions at the end of the day have no real expeariance behind them and 90% of the people posting here (who I beleve have more expeariance in FMA than you young man) give their opinions based on expeariance not on so called testosterone.

Oh to be 19 again :D So young but so :o

Enjoy the rest young man, after all you have said I think you may need it.
(God I bet I get binned for that too, sorry all)


Mabuhay


Pat

Hiya Pat. Happy Hols - you'll no doubt read this once you get back. Playing the "age" card is pretty similar to playing the "gender" card IMHO - you can generaize and those generalizations may be correct on the whole, but there are 19 years olds wiser and smarter than us both.

I feel for Scarlet who is currently binned. At least is he is honest and upfront enough to say what he feels - I might not agree and he might not be right but I tip my hat to him for being true to himself. I might pop down 'the bin' in visting hours with a file baked into a cake... :D

Just think - Scarlets attitude and drive coupled with your or Lucy's experience and temperance - now there's someone you'd want next to you in a tight spot.

[RichieRich]

KickChick was right on the money. The comments were inappropriate, especially considering the nature of the thread. Condescending remarks are condescending even when thinly concealed as humor.

Kudos to all the good posters here who have made their points without resorting to archaic stereotypes and blatant chauvinism.


Hi RubyMoon. Great to see you posting again.

First, may I just say that personally I’ve always found that paralepsis makes for poor narrative and is a cowards weapon. It doesn’t break any MAP rules, though.

“Condescending remarks are condescending even when thinly concealed as humor.” Axiomatically correct, but somewhat subjective regarding both “condescending” and "humor". I could argue that “The truth is the truth even when thinly concealed as humour” and would be bound by the same caveats.

I’m not looking to get anyone’s backs up – I thought the whole thread was somewhat “defused” and we where enjoying the differences. I guess for some its still a very touchy subject and I apologize if I was insensitive to this.

[Tika]

I have a bad feeling this thread is gonna blow up again and continue going the way of all the other threads on the topic... can we stop beating the poor dead horse? And let it die?

[Saz]

This threads got to the point where nothing is being achieved, and the discussion is going round in circles.

Thanks to everyone who contributed, but its lock up time!