WMA and moral code

[Dave_Britten]

After training in EMA for 10 years and continually being (badly) lectured on MA for defence and peace :rolleyes: . I was wondering how many people include some sort of moral teaching in their WMA training? My instructor has never mentioned it and I have never mentioned it in class.
Should we even include moral teaching in WMA? I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Dave.

[teacher]

We were taught to think of the people around us, to help and be respectful of fellow members, to set a good example when in the wider community so as to reflect honour on our club.

But maybe that was just the tennis club I went to.

Seriously, is the martial arts class the only place to learn how to behave?

Perhaps if you look at how the people in your class repect and help each other you might see good morals in action. I'm not always convinced that a blurry lecture on morals does anything other than add a little mysticism to the class.

[Louie]

After training in EMA for 10 years and continually being (badly) lectured on MA for defence and peace :rolleyes: . I was wondering how many people include some sort of moral teaching in their WMA training? My instructor has never mentioned it and I have never mentioned it in class.
Should we even include moral teaching in WMA? I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
Dave.

Hi Dave,

From a Scottish perspective, there are lots of stories of Scots/Gaels respecting codes of honour, hospitality, conduct etc., but as you probably know there are just as many stories of massacres under trust, travellers being murdered, duellists being stabbed in the back after accepting their opponents surrender & Famous swordsmen like Rob Roy (and Donald MacBane) actually running from fights :eek: (The Hollywood film has Rob beating the 'dandie' in the end scene, in fact he was chased from the field).

Judging by MacBane's 18thC autobiography, he was aware of the moral codes, duelling ettiquite(?) but didn't actually practice many of them as they could get him killed.

I'm of the opinion that 18thC 'clubs' were like 21stC clubs, there were the type that taught swordsmanship, and lectured their students on codes of honour, ettiquite, dress etc,. (Sir William Hope springs to mind).
Then there was the class that taught a variety of weapons, 'dirty tricks', fought in everyday clothes and if the situation required, taught you to run and live to fight another day. (Donald MacBane & William Figg in this case)

Obviously I'm a fan of the latter :D

Louie

[Dave_Britten]

Hi Dave,

I'm of the opinion that 18thC 'clubs' were like 21stC clubs, there were the type that taught swordsmanship, and lectured their students on codes of honour, ettiquite, dress etc,. (Sir William Hope springs to mind).
Then there was the class that taught a variety of weapons, 'dirty tricks', fought in everyday clothes and if the situation required, taught you to run and live to fight another day. (Donald MacBane & William Figg in this case)

Obviously I'm a fan of the latter :D

Louie

Hi Louie,
As you well know I'm with you on this. I'm also frantical about the avoidance of closed martial arts systems which effectively ended my study of Tai Chi. (I couldn't agree to the terms of the Bai Shi). Do you simply have to accept that you have no responsibilty for what your students do with what you have taught them?

Dave.

[Louie]

Do you simply have to accept that you have no responsibilty for what your students do with what you have taught them?

Dave.

Hi Dave...

The modern equivelent of a weapons instructor -
The gun club instructor give's students lectures on gun handling, safety and club ettiquite, then eventually let them shoot a few rounds on the range. Although he might be able to spot the odd nut right away or over a month or so and decide not to approve their membership there's little he can do about the seemingly 'normal' individuals who will take the skills taught to them and go out and harm/kill people. :woo:

Louie

[Knight_Errant]

We have police for this kind of thing, don't we?

[Scotty Dog]

Do you simply have to accept that you have no responsibilty for what your students do with what you have taught them?



in this case I think that responsibilty should be changed to Control.

you can lecture a class till your blue in the face about whats right & wrong with the world but in the end a Psycho is still a Psycho & will hurt people no matter what you say. The only hope that a coach has is to look at his training partners & decide if he really wants to train with them.

In my experiance, other than the odd bully, the nutter's don't really stick around & train, once they realise there are easier way's to hurt someone they're gone.

[Dave_Britten]

Hi Knight Errant,
Police Ha ha ha ha!!!! Don't make me laugh, come on, save comedy for the jokes section. I lived in govan for 5 years, that showed the true policing of violent crime.

Dave.

[Scotty Dog]

I live in govan now, that's why I've got a BIG stick :p

[Scotty Dog]

Mind you, it's also why I don't get out much :(

[Pat OMalley]

I live in govan now, that's why I've got a BIG stick :p

I left Govan and lived all over the place and still have a big stick, but mind you I still don't get out much, Christ, the wifes' back, better get back to tiling the bathroom. Or maybe I can cut the grass, that'll get me out:p

[Dave_Britten]

Yeah, I did the Glasgow tour of duty, Pollok, Possil, Govan.
Mind you Govan is only one I saw a real sword fight. So, not a bad idea to keep a BIG stick elhiggito and a few other toys. :woo:

Dave.

[Rob Lovett]

Hi Dave,

Interesting question.
Historically, in the treatises there seems to be a common thread of moral guidance given by the masters who are writing. This moral guidance is certainly not invasive to the manual itself and seems fairly much to run along the lines of:
Fight for God
Fight for your country
Fight for your family
Don't fight over matters of honour (eg you spill my pint, then let's duel)
The earlier manuscripts of the medieval period tend to leave the moral ethics to the church and to ethic codes such as chivalry and courtesy.
Having said this, Fiore, when he is discussing practise, tells us that we must train in harmony with our partner, or else we will injure him, however, when fighting an enemy then we must not have these same considerations.
What we must remember however is that these codes and ethics are from times long gone and while some may well have their place in a modern society, some will not. For instance if we studied some of the earlier manuals with respect to self defence/protection, then we would find ourselves quickly in trouble with the law, as the level of response is far to extreme given the situation (having said that, better to be tried by twelve then carried by six:) ).
As far as inclusion of the period ethic and moral codes, then I personally do not do so. I do not believe that it is my place to teach or impress upon others a code that has its basis and foundation on a different culture and society, nor ethically do I feel that this sort of brain washing is necessary for the practise of MA. The only times that this sort of thing may arise is if it is necessary to understand some theoretical aspect or the mindset of the author, so as to gauge what he means from his texts.

Hope this helps
Rob

[Dave_Britten]

Thanks all for the responses. They were all interesting. It seems to me that WMA practioners seem to have taken a common sense approach to this issue and to me far better than the EMA approach. I only hope that as the western styles florish we can maintain this open and non-dogmatic view of martial arts.

Dave.

[oldcelt]

I run Live Steel Fight Academy here in the states. I am constantly reminding my students to be aware of the terribleness of what the endeavor to learn. How they need to be able to skin another human or cut a limb or head off, have the blood squirt in their face and still sleep that night to get up and do it again the next day. I tell them to never forget how horrific it is to use these talents against someone and that a true warrior has the control to not use them.

[Stolenbjorn]

I've been doing Fiore Longsword for over 3 years now, and I want WMA to be careful with the way it profiles itself, as most people have yet to develop any prejudices against WMA, we have an unique chanse of designing the impression on the world! I therefore (and of course for moral reasons) want all WMA-instructors to lecture on moral codes that are applied to the modern world. One of the main figures in ressurecting this manual (from USA); Bob Cherron; uses Fiore del Liberes own words from his manual to provide a link between the present demands for moral codes and the early renissanse. It is apperant that it was a duke that employed mr.Del Libere who decided who should earn the right to train with him, and that the training was very secret; not even relatives was allowed to watch, as Fiore/the count were afraid of having theese deadly techniques distributed among the savage masses...

[Rob Lovett]

Stolenbjorn,

What has the length of time that one practises got to do with this? Being as that you mention it, I have been practising medieval weapons since the age of 15, have been practising HEMA from the treatises since 96 and have been translating and practising Fiore since 99. I also have a grounding in boxing, wrestling and judo and have been practising New Breed and have recently started Escrima. I also do not practise Fiore Longsword, but rather practise Fiore as a full system, researching throughly from all three surviving treatises that are attributed to him.

There ARE prejudices against WMA, HEMA, in particular, this is changing but is a slow process. Usually from thiose that have invested a lot of time and energy into other styles and systems and have minds that are closed and cannot see the similarities and beauty that can be found in other arts than their own. Those that have seen these arts practised soon realise that they are seeing the rediscovery of a european martial heritage in its infancy.

Moral Codes that Bob Charron teaches are based on Chivralic Codes which are more than relevant in the 15th Century, and yet, even then rarely adhered to, unless it suited. Although there is much to recommed the Chivalric Code it is a code that is anachronistic in todays society, unless one decides that they wish to take the Victorian view of Chivalry - which bears only a passing resemblance to the actual practise of the middle ages.
However, Chivalric Codes are heavily based in Christian teachings, and in a multi cultural society these codes are unnecessary to enable the teaching of a medieval martial art, apart from where it may help the student to understand the mindset of the author and that of society at that time. Today our moral guidance is governed by today's modern society and not a society that existed 600 years ago.
Dei Liberi, not Del Liberi ( or Rodney Liberi ) talks only of how one should practise these deadly techniques, ie that one should train with their partner in harmony, yet against an enemy one cannot take the same sort of care.
The level of responses to threat or attack that Fiore dei Liberi shows will get one arrested and doing serious time in modern society. For instance, if I am defending myself and decided to plunge my thumbs into his eyeballs leaving my opponent blind for the rest of his life, while acceptable to Fiore this will not be acceptable to the Old Bill.

As far as only teaching those chosen by the Duke: well Fiore was well travelled, having been too many places around germany and Italy and he states quite categorically that he would teach those that paid him, those that needed to fight and those that did not need to fight. He States that he taught Princes, Dukes, Lords, Gentlemen and Squires, and although in only one of the treatises that are attributed to Fiore is the order given not to teach to peasants the other two prefer not mention this. Fiore did teach in secret only those that had taken a holy vow not to divulge his teachings to others, and to trusted students and family members who had also taken the same vow. I suspect that it was only while Fiore was employed by his patron Nicolo d'Este that Nicolo would have had any effect on the students that Fiore would take on, and I also suspect that if Fiore did not want to teach a particular student for whatever reason then he would not have done.
Fiore was extremely concerned about keeping his art secret and got into fights 5 times with other masters for refusing to train them or show them.
As far as the view of the Pisani-Dosi MS on peasants, the reason that they should not be taught is because they are not intelligent enough to understand what they are being taught having been bred to be little more than oxen, bearing burdens in the fields. If we follow this advice then only those with any sort of title should be learning this art and we should all stiop practising medival ma now.

Regards
Rob

[Dave_Britten]

Hi Stolenbjorn,
I think I see your point, however, we are not living in a feudal society anymore. We do not need Dukes to dictate what we should or should not be allowed to know. It is the up to the individual to choose what they use their skill for not the instructor. Who's morality do you use? My morality is different from yours. Am I right and you wrong or are you right and I am wrong? I thimk WMA should stay well clear of morality and let society do that for us.

P.S. Let not get all romantic about a kindly duke who wanted to protect people from themselves. He wanted to protect his own interests by allowing his supporters access to the best martial tools while restricting all others.

cheers,
Dave.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

It is the up to the individual to choose what they use their skill for not the instructor.I'd say that the instructor has some degree of responsibility for their student, otherwise its similar to saying that you teach someone to shoot, and put a gun in their hands, but claim no responsibility when they go out and kill someone.

[Louie]

I'd say that the instructor has some degree of responsibility for their student, otherwise its similar to saying that you teach someone to shoot, and put a gun in their hands, but claim no responsibility when they go out and kill someone.

Hi LilBunnyRabbit

But they do.... :woo: Happens every day in the USA... allegedly!

Although I do agree with you regarding responsibility, and realise there may be times when a teacher needs to 'teach' self-control, mutual respect and restraint. Personally I believe this can be done not as a lecture but subtly- some form of salutation before sparring, limitations in sparring, friendly atmosphere and if all else fails, a word in an ear :woo::rolleyes:

Louie

[Dave_Britten]

Hi LilBunnyRabbit,
You actions are your own responsibility. My driving instructor doesn't check up whether I drink and drive or play death race 2000 on babies in prams (which I don't, honest!!! :D ). Why should a martial arts instructor have this responsibility. If people want to harm others you can find a lot quicker and easier ways to do it than spending years learning a martial arts.

Dave.

[Stolenbjorn]

Well, allthough we live in democracies and all persons have rights and free will, it will still be up to the instructor and his moral code who he wants to teach his knowledge to. I'll not be able to enforce my wiev on you lot, and in the end there's probably no way of knowing who will abuse what they learn (to fight on the streets, etc).

But there's still now way in hel's place (Did you know that the english/scandinavian word for where the devil lives originates in norse mythology; "Hel"; queen of those who died of natural causes) -any of you are gonna persuade me into teaching neo-nazis about viking reenactment/I-33!!!

[Rob Lovett]

Nothing wrong with that Stolenbjorn. What I find is that it sorts itself out for you anyway, and have been pleasantly surprised. Our initial training is quite boringly repetitive and consists mainly of footwork, falling, body mechanics, very basic strikes and very basic grappling.
If someone who comes along is not interested in what we practise wishing to find a quick answer to how to become best fighter on the street we find that they leave within the first month. Those people that are interest in the long haul tend to stay.
For me, it is within those first four months of training with us that I am able to get a fairly good idea about the person and if something makes me feel uncomfortable about them then I ask them to leave if necessary. This has not happened so far as everyone who I have felt uncomfortable about has left by that point anyway.
I do not think anyone here has suggested that you teach those people that you feel will abuse your art in whatever way, but rather has said that they feel it is not their place to include a moral or social code within their training program.
On the other hand, when I found martial arts as a youngster, I was a trainee thug and ne'er do well, and it was through practise that I gained a respect for myself first and a respect for others second that kind of worked so that those things that I used to get up to no longer gave me the kind of kicks that they once did. I do not think that mine is a unique case but rather indicative of the sorts of benefits that practising MA can give people both psychologically and physically.

Regards
Rob

[Stolenbjorn]

I like what you say, and I really don't have any arguments against it. What I add to your arguments (what I wrote in an earlier post), is about that there's the public to regard as well as the ones actually attending classes, and that a journalist infiltrating your classes might not attend long enough to see how your filtration-system works...

In Norway i see how WMA /reenactment is by some regarded as a dubious activity for nazis/ex-hippies(how the think out how theese two fractions come along together is somewhat puzzeling) that never grew up and wants our children to become fighting lunatics. Therefore, I am very focused on how to stop this wiev from become the standard prejudice of WMA in Norway. Boxing is allready branded as an activity for brain-dead half ciminals that haven't got the skills/abilities to learn the real arts(EMA). I don't want my beloved and advanced Fiore-system to suffer the same fate.

In addition; when it comes to Fiore del libere and his Flos duellantum, I find it honourable and stylish to try to keep the cultural offprint alive as well as the actual fightinginstructions (the bit where he brags about his achievements and only train the ones the duke clears) This does not have to mean the entire WMA, as WMA is as diverse as butterflies.

[Rob Lovett]

Stolenbjorn,

OK, I can understand your fears and perspective, just don't let that become too much of a hang up. :)

Stolenbjorn, where does it say in the text that he only trains the ones that the Duke clears? I have translated all the introductions from the three surviving MS and in no part does it say that. It does say that he will only train those that have taken a sacred vow not to divulge his teachings and those that are trusted students and close family members who have also taken this vow.

Regards
Rob

[Stolenbjorn]

I've got it from memory from a Bob Cherrone-seminar over 2 years ago, so I'd say that you should regard my sources as somewhat...non-reliable (my head, and not remembering what was Bob's interpetations, my interpetations of his lecture and what was really written)!