combat hapkido

[hotrod1]

hi everyone i have recently come across something called combat hapkido which mainly practicies self defence as far as i can gather as anyone got any more info on this and if it any good thanks

[oni_sensei]

Just another self-defense system designed for t3H sTr33t, supposedly cutting all the BS out of the MA. That was my first impression, but others may be able to shed some brighter light on it. To me, it's just another fancy name for an eclectic mix of MA.

[bvermillion]

I personally have no exerperience with combat hapkido. But my instructor reached his 1st dan through them and then left. I dont know the details I just know he wasn't happy with the instruction, but he said Pellegrini is an excellent martial artists and there are numerous excellent martial artist within the program.

[MaxG]

Have you looked at their website? www.ichf.com

You can also check out the Hapkido origins thread where it is discussed a little bit. Thomas does a very good job of describing the style.

[Thomas]

hi everyone i have recently come across something called combat hapkido which mainly practicies self defence as far as i can gather as anyone got any more info on this and if it any good thanks

Greetings! I train in Combat Hapkido (2nd dan) and have previously trained in TKd (3rd dan), Traditional Hapkido (2nd dan) and other stuff. Combat Hapkido is a mixed style that is designed to be open enough to either act as an additional set of cross training opportunities for any style or for progression as an individual style.

Most of the instructors in the style have trained for years in other styles, tried Combat Hapkido and liked it and then studied the curriculum and tested in to gain rank. The rank issues are not really a big issue... other styles ranks are honored or you can train in Combat Hapkido without trying to earn rank (based on your level of ability).

Combat Hapkido provides training through seminars (and books and videos) on striking, grappling, weapons like cane/stick/knife, trapping, and etc.

In my personal opinion, all of the Combat Hapkido instructors I have met have been very good teachers, extremely competant martial artists, and good people. I know there are some exceptions out there but I've never met them. Training is open to ICHF members and non-members alike... members get the benefits of earning rank and getting a newsletter.

Check out the following threads... if you have any Combat Hapkdio questions, I will do my best to answer them on this thread. (Or, if you want to ask about individuals, PM me, please).

Hapkido origins
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16577
What kwan are you?
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2734
Changing schools with styles
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11054
Summary of an ICHF seminar
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2598

ICHF home page: www.ichf.com

[nj_howard]

thomas, i read recently that one of the gracies is now affiliated with combat hapkido, apparently teaching ground defense.

as combat hapkido continues to incorporate more and more eclectic elements, do you think that the "jack of all trades, master of none" syndrome could set in? or do they select a subset of techniques from each art and drill them repeatedly until you can do them from reflex?

just wondering...

[SoKKlab]

as combat hapkido continues to incorporate more and more eclectic elements, do you think that the "jack of all trades, master of none" syndrome could set in?


Surely that 'Jack of all trades..' comment is as relevant to any system such as Ju Jitsu, Hapkido etc, as they are systems that attempt to cover all eventualities and scenarios. I mean 'normal' Hapkido is hardly specialised is it??? I mean is it a Striking system? Is it a Grappling system???
(Answer=No).

(No, I don't do Combat Hapkido either....)

[MaxG]

thomas, i read recently that one of the gracies is now affiliated with combat hapkido, apparently teaching ground defense.

as combat hapkido continues to incorporate more and more eclectic elements, do you think that the "jack of all trades, master of none" syndrome could set in? or do they select a subset of techniques from each art and drill them repeatedly until you can do them from reflex?

just wondering...


Carlson Gracie is now affiliated with Combat Hapkido and is actually doing Double Impact seminars with GM Pellegrini on occasion. Personally I would prefer to be a "jack of all trades" when it comes to fighting. Limiting oneself is detrimental in all situations. Fighting included.

I doubt anyone (Karate, taekwondo, kempo, any martial artist) would turn down the opportunity to train with someone of Carlson Gracie's quality.

[bvermillion]

Royce Gracie trains in hapkido. He said he likes the philosophies of hapkido.

[oni_sensei]

Ooops, after looking at that website I realise I was talking about a different organisation. Didn't mean to put down either group at all. Pity that GM Pellegrini doesn't have any schools in Australia, I'd be damn inclined to check it out.

[nj_howard]

Surely that 'Jack of all trades..' comment is as relevant to any system such as Ju Jitsu, Hapkido etc, as they are systems that attempt to cover all eventualities and scenarios. I mean 'normal' Hapkido is hardly specialised is it??? I mean is it a Striking system? Is it a Grappling system???
(Answer=No).

(No, I don't do Combat Hapkido either....)

yeah, fair point, i guess. i suppose i was thinking in the strict sense of hapkido being "one" martial art, as opposed to combat hapkido, which incorporates techniques from other arts.

[nj_howard]

Carlson Gracie is now affiliated with Combat Hapkido and is actually doing Double Impact seminars with GM Pellegrini on occasion. Personally I would prefer to be a "jack of all trades" when it comes to fighting. Limiting oneself is detrimental in all situations. Fighting included.

I doubt anyone (Karate, taekwondo, kempo, any martial artist) would turn down the opportunity to train with someone of Carlson Gracie's quality.
thomas, no disagreement. my point was that as an art becomes more and more eclectic, there is a greater burden on the student to spend enough time on all of the techniques to become proficient at them. yes, it's best to try to be prepared for anything.

[Thomas]

thomas, i read recently that one of the gracies is now affiliated with combat hapkido, apparently teaching ground defense.

as combat hapkido continues to incorporate more and more eclectic elements, do you think that the "jack of all trades, master of none" syndrome could set in? or do they select a subset of techniques from each art and drill them repeatedly until you can do them from reflex?

just wondering...

(Nice thread so far, but I think you got MaxG and me confused a bit...)
To me, the beauty of Combat Hapkido is that it can be used as "bolt-on" cross-training or as a whole style.

There are people out there who are happy with their own systems but want a little extra... Combat Hapkido offers seminars on grappling (with Carlson Gracie, who is also learning Combat Hapkido now), knife defence, cane, trapping, Police Defensive Tactics, third party protection, and good ol' down and dirty self defence. They can train with us, work hard and not be bothered about ranking or doing all of the classes. In this way, we do see a lot of "Jack of all trades" idea... because we offer training in lots of stuff.

If a person wants to rank in Combat Hapkido, they must demonstrate a set curriculum... which is based on open hands/striking/joint locks/falling/etc... all pretty well set and linked with a video remedial set (you can't do it just by video). Anything you choose to study beyond that is up to you (or your instructor). You can also test in certain categories (like cane) at seminars and get basic ranking, advanced, or instructor ranking... usualy done in front of GM P.

A person can specialize in Combat Hapkido and learn a full martial arts system... and accessorize it with anything they want. Alternatively, they can just learn elements of it and graft it onto their own systems. It's pretty flexible.

[Oldie]

I trained in Combat Hapkido for about a year after gaining my 1st dan in tae kwon do and 1st brown in Modern Arnis and 2.5 yrs in Jeet Kune Do. I chanced upon it after having some disagreement with a Hapkido school owner (she didn't want me to learn it for free in exchange for my teaching the kicking aspects).

I still like Combat Hapkido, even after a family situation stopped me from pursuing it further. The instructor is very knowledgeable and friendly. The class format is not as rigid and ritualistic as traditional martial arts such as tae kwon do and Hapkido. Ranks are not as important as knowing the stuff.

I like Combat Hapkido because of the practical aspects of it. The kicks are lower but more effective than the higher TKD kicks. The joint locks and takedowns apply to daily situations. Not a big guy myself, I find the techniques easily applicable. I enjoyed every class I attended and soon realized the impracticality of many of the TKD techniques, especially the high kicks and various spinning kicks. Board breaking is not required in combat hapkido either. There is no form of any kind, and no foreign language to master or imitate.

With Combat Hapkido, I found my martial arts training much more complete, because now I realized I also had the close range combat skills that I lacked while training in tae kwon do. I did have some exposure in jeet kune do and modern arnis, which employed trapping and joint locks, takedown, grappling, ground fighting, stick skills etc. In some ways, these three arts (JKD, Modern Arnis and Combat Hapkido) have something in common, but I like the way the curriculum is programmed, a bit more structured than JKD and formless compared to Modern Arnis.

I am not here to knock tae kwon do which has many forms. The forms are good when practiced, for they provide balance and some foundation for the striking movements, although not practical for combat. In my free time, I still practice the forms, for cardio's sake and to complement my regular exercises.

Oldie

[Thomas]

Greetings Oldie... I hope you check in at our 'Hapkido Check-in" thread. (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5156)

It's nice to hear some positive experiences about Combat Hapkido... my experiences are pretty similar. Looking forward to reading more of your posts!

[Alucard]

Greetings All.
I met Grandmaster Pellegrini about 2 years ago when I took the IPDTI ( International Police Defensive Tactics Institute) instructor course, since then I attended a half a dozen or so seminars..Here was a style that could be easily learned and added to any exsisting skills that the individual already possess..Here was an instructor that made learning Fun without all the narrowminded,insulting,I'm-better-than-you-attitudes that some self professed GM's exhibit..
I've examined others and this one work for me..

[Thomas]

Nice to meet you and good to hear good things about GM P. My master also is a graduate of the Police Defensive Tactics course and is licensed in it. I personally like that kind of stuff as well!

P.S. I know what you mean about GM P's methods of instruction... always fun and hands-on. Even in a fairly large seminar, you get loads on personal attention... and have fun!

[Dr.Syn]

Thomas,
Thanks for the response. Sorry about the slow response time but my PC took a dump and refused to let me sign on to any site..The nice people here blanked out my old name and password and let me start anew, so Alucard is now Dr. Syn..

[Thomas]

Good to see you back, under a different guise! Looking forward to more posts!

[Dr.Syn]

Thomas.
Are you planning on attending the seminar in Kentucky this November? The guys from Self Defence Canada are flying in for it..I introduced a friend of mine who is a 6th Dan in Tai-Shin-Do to GM P and Combat Hapkido at a one day seminar in PA earlier this year and now he is hooked on it...He will be attending with some of his students..My home PC is still out of commision so my responces and posts are few and far between..

[Thomas]

Dr. Syn;
I am not sure yet... but I do think my instructor wants to go and I may go as well. I'll let you know though!

[Dr.Syn]

Thomas.
Hope you can make it..Bill "Superfoot " Wallace will be there this year and that alone will be worth the price of admission..One of the highlights was the fact that during registration the hotel offere free liquore during happy hour...

[Thomas]

Not sure still about the Kentucky meeting, but wil definately go to Kinderhook.

For anyone not familiar with Combat Hapkido, something cool about it is that thewy offer lots of seminars with GM Pelligrini (he teaches a lot) and sometimes with GM Pelligrini and someone else, e.g. the Kinderhook one will be GM Pelligrini and Canemaster Shuey. The seminars are open to all styles (and to beginners as well). They are conducted professionally and are spent on the mat with various partners working techniques with other instructors coming around and helping. Definately worth doing! Here's a link to upcoming seminars: www.ichf.com/Sem2005.htm

[DAT]

Thomas,

Thanks for steering me to this thread. Combat Hapkido sounds like it would complement all my previous training. It definately has caught my attention. I'd like to pursue it further. Maybe I'll see you at a seminar soon!

[Dr.Syn]

DAT.
Everything Thomas said about the seminars are 100% true..Plus all the the instructors bring a whole bunch of goodies for sale usually at a discounted price. Also GM Pellegrini and the rest of the instructors are very approachable, in other words they do not hide during the breaks..Hope to see you at a seminar...

[pachanga]

Does anyone know if there are any combat hapkido classes in London (UK)? Hapkido is one of the arts I'm considering trying but I'd prefer something where, as Oldie put it, "class format is not as rigid and ritualistic as traditional martial arts", and a bit more geared to the street.

[BackFistMonkey]

Thomas or anyone else out there who may have some advice for me .
There are no combat hapkido schools near me . Nor any other M.A. that teach the cane . I am getting a cane this year as a birthday present ... I was born with club foot and under went ALOT of corrective surgeries, every year I can feel my legs getting worse . I am going to go ahead and learn how to use the cane before I HAVE TO USE one ... while my hopkido training is strenthing my legs it is just a matter of time before one goes .

So the question is where do I start ?

So far this is what my game plan looks like so far .....

I am looking at the "STANDARD COMBAT CANE" from Cane Masters as my b-day gift
Standard Combat Cane page from Cane Masters (http://http://canemasters.com/full_dim.html)

I figure I better get used to carrying it and using it even if I am not training with it yet .

and then I figured I could start with video's unless ( hopefully ) someone can think of a better source for info .

I havent given up on a teacher in my area that knows the cane but it doesnt look promising ...

[Dr.Syn]

That's the same cane I purchased after attending a seminar an meeting Grandmaster Shuey..If you have the bucks pick up any of his instructional dvd's or tapes, I didn't have the bucks so I purchased one of manuals which was still a big help..Maybe an e-mail to CaneMasters will help you find the instruction you seek..Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance...

[Thomas]

There are no combat hapkido schools near me . Nor any other M.A. that teach the cane . I am getting a cane this year as a birthday present ... I was born with club foot and under went ALOT of corrective surgeries, every year I can feel my legs getting worse . I am going to go ahead and learn how to use the cane before I HAVE TO USE one ... while my hopkido training is strenthing my legs it is just a matter of time before one goes .

So the question is where do I start ?

So far this is what my game plan looks like so far .....

I am looking at the "STANDARD COMBAT CANE" from Cane Masters as my b-day gift
Standard Combat Cane page from Cane Masters (http://http://canemasters.com/full_dim.html)


Check out this thread: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16168
I give a quick review of some of the tpaes, including the ICHF ones and one of the canemasters. I have a "Canemaster" cane and love it... the aluminium adjustable ones are good, too (and cheap).

I think that you can learn the techniques from the tape if you practice them with a partner using resistance, speed (and control, of course). (I presume you have some background in martial arts as well). The ICHF tapes are good as is the Canemasters stuff.

Otherwise, I would recommend getting instruction in stick... some of it applies very well.

[Dr.Syn]

Yes, the ICHF tapes are just as good as the CaneMasters stuff.

[mixmastersenior]

Nice Post Oldie. You captured the essence of what GM Pellegrini was trying to accomplish when He founded the art. Combat Hapkido is desinged to supplement most any other style of Martial art, not neccesarily to replace it.
Many Traditional Martial arts do not have self defense as their primary purpose. They are passing on and preserving cultural traditions and identity. That doesn't mean that the techniques are not effective for self defense, but the style and methodology can be difficult to translate into a modern combat situation. That is where Combat Hapkido trys to help. Without attempting to replace an art form, it introduces concepts that hopefuuly increases the effective nature of a martial art. It is not a fix all solution for everything (what is), but the system was designed simply to help someone become more effective in self defence. And for you mates down under, I'll be seeing GM Pellegrini this weekend (April 9-10). I'll suggest that he should look into making a trip down your way. If any of you are beling to a Martial arts organization, be sure to go to ICHF.com and voice your interest in a visit.

[Thomas]

Greetings mixmastersenior! It sounds like you have some great experiences and insights to share... I know I'll be listening! Welcome to the Hapkido forum

[myki]

Any of you who have taken combat hapkido...
Would you say it was similar to krav maga? A no nonsense MA, just 'end the fight' kind of thing?
I was looking into the wheelchair version of combat hapkido, it appears very adaptable.

Cheers!

[Shihan]

hi everyone i have recently come across something called combat hapkido which mainly practicies self defence as far as i can gather as anyone got any more info on this and if it any good thanks

I'm from a traditional hapkido background and have been seriously thinking about training in Combat Hapkido. From what I read about it the self defense aspects are what I'm looking for. I'm tired of the high kicks, forms and training in old weapons of yesteryear. Can anyone here tell me about any CH dojangs or instructors in the NYC area that I might be able to check out?

[MaxG]

Any of you who have taken combat hapkido...
Would you say it was similar to krav maga? A no nonsense MA, just 'end the fight' kind of thing?
I was looking into the wheelchair version of combat hapkido, it appears very adaptable.
Cheers!

CH uses hapkido as it's base art. What sets it apart from more traditional styles is the no forms or kata's and willingness to continuously adapt to modern times. No learning old school weapons like nunchucks, sais, staffs, etc. You'll learn cane, short stick aka danbong, regular size sticks (like escrima), knife, belt/rope. My school also trains in karambit.

Combat Hapkido is definitely a 'end the fight' art. While I treasure the striking arts that I've studied. Women no matter how skilled would be hard pressed to 'end the fight' with a precision strike to a 240 pound attacker. Being nearly 240 pounds myself. I have been put to the mat quite easily with finger joint locks by a 110 pound woman.

Unfortunately I am not knowledgeable enough about the wheelchair program of ICHF but I'm sure that if you e-mail ICHF.com someone would be more than happy to deliver that info to you.

I'm from a traditional hapkido background and have been seriously thinking about training in Combat Hapkido. From what I read about it the self defense aspects are what I'm looking for. I'm tired of the high kicks, forms and training in old weapons of yesteryear. Can anyone here tell me about any CH dojangs or instructors in the NYC area that I might be able to check out?

Using the ICHF website and mapquest the closest I saw was Lake Placid. which looked to be about 80 miles away. So about an hour or so drive away or 45 minutes if you drive like my girlfriend. Definitely contact ICHF.com though because new schools may have been added since the last time the website was updated.

[myki]

Thanks MaxG, that's very interesting.
Cheers!

[Thomas]

Can anyone here tell me about any CH dojangs or instructors in the NYC area that I might be able to check out?

Lake Placid is actually much farther away than that... it's about 5 hours from NYC (it is a good school though)...

Closer schools are:
Bronx
http://www.mauricepromartialarts.com/upgrade_flash.html
Queens
http://eteamz.active.com/UniversalMartialArts/index.cfm?

Closer to Albany area
Valatie (I’ve visited here… good people and school!)
http://www.kinderhooktkd.com/index.php
Colonie
http://www.newyorkhapkido.com/

Yoiu might also consider New Jersey
Jackson, NJ (Good people)
http://www.selfdefense-newjersey.com/Staff.htm
Hillsborough, NJ (small school with an awesome instructor)
www.ichfnj.com/
Cheery Hill, NJ
www.psmai.net

[Shihan]

Thomas and MaxG,


Thank you for you help. ICHF has put me in touch with their NYC representative, Master Al Medina, 5th Dan in Combat Hapkido. I viewed a class Tuesday night, and I was thoroughly impressed. CH is to Traditional hapkido what JKD is to wing chun. That was my perception of it. Master Medina not only taught clean, crisp techniques but also explain the legal and moral ramifications of such techniques. He broke everything down, showed counters and was a pleasure to watch. I will go back next week and take the trial class and as soon as I can end my contract at my present traditional hapkido dojang, I will be joining the ranks of the ICHF. I will write back to talk about my trial class.

Train Hard...Live Well...Die Free

[Spikedude]

Hey,
I've started not too long ago, its a great style of Hapkido. If you have taken Hapkido for a little while this is a great style to learn.

[Thomas]

:love:

In New Jersey... if you can, check out Master Frank Huff... awesome practitioner.

[American HKD]

I'm from a traditional hapkido background and have been seriously thinking about training in Combat Hapkido. From what I read about it the self defense aspects are what I'm looking for. I'm tired of the high kicks, forms and training in old weapons of yesteryear. Can anyone here tell me about any CH dojangs or instructors in the NYC area that I might be able to check out?

Greetings

I'm very curious so please answer a few questions for me.

1. Trad HKD has high kicks ( I'll give you that, we have a ton of low kicks too ) I hope your'e taught them.

2. Trad HKD has no forms ( what forms do you practice? )

3. Trad HKD only possible old weapon is the sword which is done only a high dan ranks so that should matter. The cane & Dan Bong, Staff, flexable weapons are all for todays times.

4. Trad HKD has the some of the best self defense in the world and CH is not better at best maybe the same.

To me your statement of wanting to switch based on your comments are hard to understand?

Most people who do CH are not from the Trad HKD camp because there's no reason to switch your not gaining anything. The others who train in CH are usually TKD guys or Karate Guys who need to learn HKD style SD.

[Shihan]

Hello American HKD,

I'll try to answer your questions as best as possible.

While i have learned some of the high and fancy kicks, I found them to be dangerous in an real street fight. I admit that I'm not the best kicker around, I'm fair in that skill. I would be concerned about a skill street fighter that would be able to counter my kick and take me down. While I do know some very proficient kickers, this might not be a problem or concern. I have also studied san shou and I like the low, powerful kicks to the knees, thighs and shins. They aren't easy to catch or block.


As for forms, my Sabumnim has shown me a book of old hapkido forms. I know he does have a TKD background well, so these forms may come from there. I'm not sure. To date I have learned 9 empty hand forms and 5 weapon forms. Please don't ask me to name them at this time (lol)

And to continue with weapons, we have only be taught forms, not applicable application in use. While I agree that the dan bong and cane are appropriate for today, I kinda question the use of the staff, but I guess if I had a long stick like a broom handle, I should know how to use it wisely.

I also agree the same techniques found in TH is basically the same in CH, but in my humble opinion, again the application was geared towards dynamic street self defense and not static self defense were my opponant just stood there and didn't fight back or move, thus making me think about my techniques realistically.

But my main reason would be that at this stage in my life, I can't take too many more throws to the mat. As a hapkidoist, being thrown is part of the style. At 43, my body grows weary of it. I like the way CH blends with san shou. I feel that this compliments my age, body type and style of wanting to defend myself. While I find nothing wrong with TH, and it has help me grasp CH rather easy, and it was a wonderful journey my Master has taken me on, but I started training in this style late in life (38) and now I need something that I can grow into without damaging my body.

I hope this answered your questions and I free and open to any and all positive feedback

[American HKD]

Hello American HKD,

I'll try to answer your questions as best as possible.

While i have learned some of the high and fancy kicks, I found them to be dangerous in an real street fight. I admit that I'm not the best kicker around, I'm fair in that skill. I would be concerned about a skill street fighter that would be able to counter my kick and take me down. While I do know some very proficient kickers, this might not be a problem or concern. I have also studied san shou and I like the low, powerful kicks to the knees, thighs and shins. They aren't easy to catch or block.

I'm a pretty good kicker not a great kicker, however as with any tech., you have to know how and when to use them. I think our arsenal of low kicks are probably more comprehensive than the CH curriculum. So my advise is use what's comfortable to you and what you develope into

As for forms, my Sabumnim has shown me a book of old hapkido forms. I know he does have a TKD background well, so these forms may come from there. I'm not sure. To date I have learned 9 empty hand forms and 5 weapon forms. Please don't ask me to name them at this time (lol)

I can't help you there 99% of THKD has no forms, maybe your at the wrong school?

And to continue with weapons, we have only be taught forms, not applicable application in use. While I agree that the dan bong and cane are appropriate for today, I kinda question the use of the staff, but I guess if I had a long stick like a broom handle, I should know how to use it wisely.

THKD teaches weapons mainly after 1st Dan cause there's alot to learn before that. Weapons forms is again not HKD.

I also agree the same techniques found in TH is basically the same in CH, but in my humble opinion, again the application was geared towards dynamic street self defense and not static self defense were my opponant just stood there and didn't fight back or move, thus making me think about my techniques realistically.

Good question I teach dynmatic SD at my school, static SD is only for beginners IMO.

But my main reason would be that at this stage in my life, I can't take too many more throws to the mat. As a hapkidoist, being thrown is part of the style. At 43, my body grows weary of it. I like the way CH blends with san shou. I feel that this compliments my age, body type and style of wanting to defend myself. While I find nothing wrong with TH, and it has help me grasp CH rather easy, and it was a wonderful journey my Master has taken me on, but I started training in this style late in life (38) and now I need something that I can grow into without damaging my body.

I'm 44 but started when I was a teenager so learning scratch in your 40 could be harded.

I hope this answered your questions and I free and open to any and all positive feedback[/QUOTE]

It sounds to me that the overall problem maybe your school and not HKD, your certainly not learning in the Trad. way. Other wise to me CH offers nothing more.

[Thomas]

Shihan:
Congrats on checking out Combat Hapkido. Master Medina is held in very high regard and is a very good technician. Additionally his longtime experience in the martial arts, law enforcement background (retired cop), and strict atention to practicality make him a highly respected Combat Hapkido instructor.

Here's a few things I'd like to add (thanks Stuart for giving a nice Traditional Hapkido viewpoint without bashing Combat Hapkido like some other Traditionalists might... I appreciate it):

1. Combat Hapkido can be trained as a stand-alone system. It has a full set of kicks and strikes for all ranges, grappling, weapons, and etc. At its heart, the core concepts and techniques come from Traditional Hapkido.

2. Some Traditional Hapkido does do a lot of kicks, forms, and extensive breakfalling (The Traditional Hapkido I hold rank in did all of these). Combat Hapkido in its base curriculum has reduced the amount of kicks and strikes to a very basic set, forms are not taught, and breakfalls are done at a basic level with a view towards what is normally used on a personal level or a street level.

3. Combat Hapkido can also be used as a "bolt-on" system of self defence and blended with a core system very easily. Additionally, Combat Hapkdio has many bolt-on sections to fill the needs of various people, inlcuding a complete ground grappling system, various weapons (Korean and Filipino), pressure points, throws, knife/gun defences, and so on. As a student, you can use Combat Hapkido as a core system and customize it to fit your needs or you can use elements of Combat Hapkido to customize your own style. Personally I find the instruction and resources to be top notch and fully recommend them.

Let me address a few things Stuart brought up:

Most people who do CH are not from the Trad HKD camp because there's no reason to switch your not gaining anything.
It is true that there is a very small portion of the Combat Hapkido guys who come from a Traditional Hapkido background (I am one, holding 2nd dan in each system). Personally I find Traditional Hapkido to be a very complete system and I am/was very happy with it. For me, I joined Combat Hapkido for three huge reasons:

(1) I love the instructors (and founder) and especially my own instructor. The material they teach suits me (realistic, practical, suits my body, etc.).

(2) I relish the openness and constant re-evaluation of the curriculum. The exploration outside of the system is very encouraged and exploration within the system is done with input from the top guys in the world. I found within Traditional Hapkido that outside exploration was generaly frowned upon (and even training from different traditional Hapkido instructors could cause problems)

(3) No politics. Within the ICHF everyone does their own thing, united by the common core curriculum and by the ingrained respect and open-mindedness that comes from exploring other systems. GM Pellegrini has taken a lot of crap (and still does) from many people who follow the party line of petty politics. He keeps that pattern of personality bashing and "my style's more pure than yours" completely away from his students. He is accessible and leads by example.

The others who train in CH are usually TKD guys or Karate Guys who need to learn HKD style SD.
This really was where Combat Hapkido found its niche and how I got into it. The blending of Hapkido principles into TKD worked so very well for me. Then, blending in the other elements that CH does made it even better for me.

My advice: go to the school and try it out for a while. I'll bet that the curriculum will not only be practical but that it will be fitted to your needs and desires and that it will complement your previous training well. Don't burn your bridges because later you may go back and see more how the styles fit together...

[American HKD]

Greetings

I agree with Thomas that CH has found a niche in filling gaps in Karate type systems and I agree few trad HKD people ever switch to CH because its not a huge benefit to them.

However I must say I was confused for quite a while as to the point of CH at all, I now see it's really for an Add On system to other MA. I'm still not sure if it's a good system all by itself?

Maybe Thomas can shed some light on that?

[Shihan]

Greetings

I'm very curious so please answer a few questions for me.

1. Trad HKD has high kicks ( I'll give you that, we have a ton of low kicks too ) I hope your'e taught them.

2. Trad HKD has no forms ( what forms do you practice? )

3. Trad HKD only possible old weapon is the sword which is done only a high dan ranks so that should matter. The cane & Dan Bong, Staff, flexable weapons are all for todays times.

4. Trad HKD has the some of the best self defense in the world and CH is not better at best maybe the same.

To me your statement of wanting to switch based on your comments are hard to understand?

Most people who do CH are not from the Trad HKD camp because there's no reason to switch your not gaining anything. The others who train in CH are usually TKD guys or Karate Guys who need to learn HKD style SD.

Thomas,

Thank you for your encouragement. I agree that Master Medina is an excellent teacher. I was very excited when I took his trial class Tuesday night. I helped fill in some gaps in my training that I been searching for. I look forward to training with him and his group and maybe I meet you at the next seminar in CT.

American HKD,

I appreciate your honest opinion on this subject. Please don't mistake my desire to train in CH that I'm putting down THKD. Thanks to my THKD training, it has lead me to this new path of enlightenment. I owe a great deal to my Sabumnim and would never turn my back on him or his teachings. But, however, in a street fight or self defense situation, he will not be with me to help fight or correct my mistakes. Which we both know can be deadly in the street. IMO, I view CH as this: CH is to THKD as Jeet Kune Do is to Wing Chun. It's the foundation that this art is built upon. We both seem to agree that dymanic SD is way better than static training. And that's what I saw last night in my trial class with Master Medina. And not to sound naive or nasty but I'm not overly concern with what is "pure" as much as I'm concern with what is useful. I'm sure we both know some very athletic and fancy black belts that would get their ass handed to them in a street fight. Trust me. I grew up in Harlem and had my fair share of fights, whether I wanted them or not and I know the anatomy of a real fight. San shou and THKD has prepared me for them, but now I feel that CH can help take me to the next level. No disrespect to THKD. And as to whether or not my Master is a legit HKD master, please feel free to check him out. I believe him to be so.

www.worldmartialartscenter.com

[Shihan]

Greetings

I agree with Thomas that CH has found a niche in filling gaps in Karate type systems and I agree few trad HKD people ever switch to CH because its not a huge benefit to them.

However I must say I was confused for quite a while as to the point of CH at all, I now see it's really for an Add On system to other MA. I'm still not sure if it's a good system all by itself?

Maybe Thomas can shed some light on that?

American HKD,

I just read about you and your dojang. I wish I was closer to South Jersey to workout with you. I'm sure you're an excellent teacher.

[American HKD]

Thomas,

Thank you for your encouragement. I agree that Master Medina is an excellent teacher. I was very excited when I took his trial class Tuesday night. I helped fill in some gaps in my training that I been searching for. I look forward to training with him and his group and maybe I meet you at the next seminar in CT.

American HKD,

I appreciate your honest opinion on this subject. Please don't mistake my desire to train in CH that I'm putting down THKD. Thanks to my THKD training, it has lead me to this new path of enlightenment. I owe a great deal to my Sabumnim and would never turn my back on him or his teachings. But, however, in a street fight or self defense situation, he will not be with me to help fight or correct my mistakes. Which we both know can be deadly in the street. IMO, I view CH as this: CH is to THKD as Jeet Kune Do is to Wing Chun. It's the foundation that this art is built upon. We both seem to agree that dymanic SD is way better than static training. And that's what I saw last night in my trial class with Master Medina. And not to sound naive or nasty but I'm not overly concern with what is "pure" as much as I'm concern with what is useful. I'm sure we both know some very athletic and fancy black belts that would get their ass handed to them in a street fight. Trust me. I grew up in Harlem and had my fair share of fights, whether I wanted them or not and I know the anatomy of a real fight. San shou and THKD has prepared me for them, but now I feel that CH can help take me to the next level. No disrespect to THKD. And as to whether or not my Master is a legit HKD master, please feel free to check him out. I believe him to be so.

www.worldmartialartscenter.com


No disrespect taken I understand your thoughts 100%.

In the end you must do what's best for you, good luck.

[Shihan]

No disrespect taken I understand your thoughts 100%.

In the end you must do what's best for you, good luck.


Sir,

You wouldn't be the master I believe you to be if you didn't understand. Thank you for your input. It is appreciated.

[Dr.Syn]

:love:

In New Jersey... if you can, check out Master Frank Huff... awesome practitioner.

Let me add to what Thomas said.Master Huff IS and awesome practitioner. I had the privledge take his Dan-Bong at the Lexington Seminar 2 years ago..It was outstanding...

[Thomas]

However I must say I was confused for quite a while as to the point of CH at all, I now see it's really for an Add On system to other MA. I'm still not sure if it's a good system all by itself?

Maybe Thomas can shed some light on that?

I am by no means an expert on "why" Combat Hapkido was set up. Here's my theory though :)

GM Pellegrini had a strong martial arts background, especially in the Korean arts. He began to focus on Hapkido and aimed to make it more mainstream as well as make some changes he felt would make the style more applicable to modern students (especially law enforcement). One of the big changes was to open up the system to allow training in elements from other systems.

As many people here know, even the suggestion of making changes to Hapkido, let alone adding elements from other arts, can set some Traditionalists foaming at the mouths. GM Pellegrini wanted to distance himself from the critics and so named the system "Combat Hapkido" and specifically advertised his system as not being Traditional Hapkido. (Of course this set some people raving as well... thinking that he meant that Traditonal Hapkido was not "combnat" enough... which wasn't his point.)

The main point of setting up the "International Combat Hapkido Federation" (www.ichf.com) was to provide a self defence system based on Hapkido principles that could be expanded and adapted freely through other systems without having to play the petty Korean/Hapkido lineage/purity/orthodoxy games that come up on every public forum, magazine, and inter-system Hapkido get together. (I know not everyone is guilty of this, butr it happens a lot)

As a system:
by itself: As we teach it by itself is basically a Hapkido foundation (footwork, strikes, breathing, techniques) with a core curriculum built around a self defence system. On that foundation we add elements of trapping, weapons (cane, stick, knife), law enforcement skills (IPDT), ground grappling, etc. We also try to fit the curriculum individually as well (espcially for the law enforcement people). We have several students who train in Combat Hapkido as their "only" art... and they find it very complete.

as an add-on: we also teach it in conjunction with our Taekwondo program. Many students love the standup striking skills of our TKD program as well as the footwork. In the regular TKD program, we add in Hapkido elements for the self defence, so students do get a taste for Hapkido. Students of both arts at our school have, in my opinion, a more rounded style... with good striking, grappling, escort/control techniques, and so on. They are very complementary.

I am just one instructor giving an example of how we teach it. The best thing would be to check out a Combat Hapkido seminar (www.ichf.com/Sem2005.htm)... they are reasonable priced and so enlightening.

[American HKD]

I am by no means an expert on "why" Combat Hapkido was set up. Here's my theory though :)

GM Pellegrini had a strong martial arts background, especially in the Korean arts. He began to focus on Hapkido and aimed to make it more mainstream as well as make some changes he felt would make the style more applicable to modern students (especially law enforcement). One of the big changes was to open up the system to allow training in elements from other systems.

As many people here know, even the suggestion of making changes to Hapkido, let alone adding elements from other arts, can set some Traditionalists foaming at the mouths. GM Pellegrini wanted to distance himself from the critics and so named the system "Combat Hapkido" and specifically advertised his system as not being Traditional Hapkido. (Of course this set some people raving as well... thinking that he meant that Traditonal Hapkido was not "combnat" enough... which wasn't his point.)

Yeah you're right, I definately thought all those things, I'm also laughing right now because you hit the nail right on the head.

The main point of setting up the "International Combat Hapkido Federation" (www.ichf.com) was to provide a self defence system based on Hapkido principles that could be expanded and adapted freely through other systems without having to play the petty Korean/Hapkido lineage/purity/orthodoxy games that come up on every public forum, magazine, and inter-system Hapkido get together. (I know not everyone is guilty of this, butr it happens a lot)

That's all very interesting and I get the theory of CH a lot more now Thank You very much.

On a side topic.
I wonder how CH being so non traditional it ever became recognized by the Kido Hae who's supposed to preserve "true Korean systems". I think that CH maybe so eclectic that just having roots in HKD isn't enough to justify it as a True Korean System.

Also that since each practioner can alter what he/she does and bring in other non korean arts that would futher dilute any Korean roots sooner or later?

I have no problems wit MMA or eclectic systems, but my Trad. side still feels
CH is a problem as a Korean system using the name Hapkido. Were it called something else I really wouldn't care. I know that's a conserative veiw but that's my feelings. (regarding the name only! the rest of it I really don't care either way)



As a system:
by itself: As we teach it by itself is basically a Hapkido foundation (footwork, strikes, breathing, techniques) with a core curriculum built around a self defence system. On that foundation we add elements of trapping, weapons (cane, stick, knife), law enforcement skills (IPDT), ground grappling, etc. We also try to fit the curriculum individually as well (espcially for the law enforcement people). We have several students who train in Combat Hapkido as their "only" art... and they find it very complete.

as an add-on: we also teach it in conjunction with our Taekwondo program. Many students love the standup striking skills of our TKD program as well as the footwork. In the regular TKD program, we add in Hapkido elements for the self defence, so students do get a taste for Hapkido. Students of both arts at our school have, in my opinion, a more rounded style... with good striking, grappling, escort/control techniques, and so on. They are very complementary.

I am just one instructor giving an example of how we teach it. The best thing would be to check out a Combat Hapkido seminar (www.ichf.com/Sem2005.htm)... they are reasonable priced and so enlightening.

Thanks

[Thomas]

Thanks Stuart... it's always a pleasure to share and learn with you... hopefully someday I can do it in person. :)

On a side topic.
I wonder how CH being so non traditional it ever became recognized by the Kido Hae who's supposed to preserve "true Korean systems". I think that CH maybe so eclectic that just having roots in HKD isn't enough to justify it as a True Korean System.

I think when GM Pellegrini first began looking to get it recognized as a Hapkido kwan, I think it was quite true to its roots (i.e. Hapkido). Recently I dug through some older videos in the school's collection and found representative pieces from tha past 10-15 years. The tapes from 1992-3 show what I woulkd consider a fairly "pure" (I know... try to define that!) Hapkdio system from the footwork to the breakfalls, techniques, strikes, etc. There was some differences from what I have experienced and looked into in Traditional Hapkido, but not more so than you would find between the different IHF's, WHF, WHA, etc. I know that GM In Sun Seo was impressed and interested in what GM P had formulated and became our patron. Comparing Combat Hapkido to GM In Sun Seo's Hapkido (my experience from a 2 day seminar)... the concepts are the same... but the expression is a bit different.

Looking at tapes from 1995-1996, you can start to see some other concepts coming into the fold, and more recent tapes even more so. The foundation concepts are all from Hapkido but they are now being interlaid with Chinese and Filipino arts concepts... becasue they are complementary. If I compare the 2005 vintage Combat Hapkdio with the 1993 vintage, I can see the path of evolution, and I like it. However, as it evolves, is it still a "True Korean system" (as you put it)? Good question.

On one hand, I would say "no" because its path of evolution has strayed quite far from the paths that other Korean arts have taken in their evolution since 1950. However, the "True Korean Arts" are indeed evolutions (some almost unrecognizably) from arts such as Shotokan or Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu. I can see the parallels. Only time will tell.

As a person who has studied both Traditional and Combat Hapkido, I have no problem with Combat Hapkido being a "legitimate Hapkdio kwan" because as we teach it I think it is true to its roots. How my students will teach it.... I don't know.

Also that since each practioner can alter what he/she does and bring in other non korean arts that would futher dilute any Korean roots sooner or later?

I see your point and agree. I hope that what I teach will remain true to its Korean roots, but I think there are a lot of practitioners out there who will teach the art as their own interpretion and how they have blended it into their own styles (even "pure" Combat Hapkido people do a lot of cross training). This is the key and what GM P seeks... that the art will be a changing, evolving art that stretches and changes to fit each practitioner. As long as every student learns the core curriculum, they will develop a strong foundation based on Hapkido principles... how they evolve beyond the core is up to them.

I have no problems wit MMA or eclectic systems, but my Trad. side still feels
CH is a problem as a Korean system using the name Hapkido. Were it called something else I really wouldn't care. I know that's a conserative veiw but that's my feelings. (regarding the name only! the rest of it I really don't care either way)
There are a lot of people out there who feel the same way. The choice of the name was done to show respect to the underlying principles and not meant to slight traditional hapkido at all. I think if he hadn't used the name, critics would be saying "Well, it's actually hapkido with a bit of cross training... he's not doing anything new... it's hapkido I'm sure!"

I just hope that Tradional Hapkido people will take the time and check out the system and see what it is (without worrying about the name). I think Combat Hapkido people need to get out and check out Traditioonal schools and see where the roots are... this kind of sharing will bring us closer. I keep thinking back to the GM In Sun Seo seminar held in Laval at GM Serge Baubil's school. Our crew of Combat Hapkido people shared and worked with some great people from Laval and everyone who shared found out that we really aren't that different and that we both have a lot to offer and share with eachother.

[mixmastersenior]

A well thought out reply, Thomas. I've had the privilage of sitting and talking with GM Pellegrini on many occasions and I can tell you that when he first decided to start on this path he has chosen, he realized the controversy it would cause. GM Pellegrini has a great love for the Korean Martial arts. He spent decades studying both Tae Kwon Do and Traditional Hapkido. He did not create Combat Hapkido to replace any martial art. He has spent many years working with and training military and law enforcement personnel. Due to the time constraints in training, he naturally began to distill the training methods and techniques down to the most useful, effective, and most easily learned. GM Pellegrini likes to think of Combat Hapkio as a living, breathing, growing art. It is a descendent of Traditional Hapkido. But as people grow and change with their experiences, he realizes that this system will also grow and evolve. He still holds to many of the foundation principles, Ki energy, live hand, the circle and water principle, balance control and disruption etc. And of course the most important principle, the techniques must work in a real world situation.
On a personal note, I find that most of my Hapkido students fall into one of two groups. Ths first group are non martial artists who take combat Hapkido for self defense. The second group are martial artists, (mostly Kempo and TKD), who take combat Hapkido as a suppliment to their primary art. The interesting thing is, no matter what group they fall into, as they progress in skill, their appreciation for the guiding concepts and principles of Hapkido grows tremendously. They all have a huge respect for the concepts behind Traditional Hapkido.

[American HKD]

Dear Thomas & Mixmaster

I see your points and theyr'e well taken.

If the core curriculum of CH keeps a true to HKD tech & principles it's possible to remain HKD and not morph into something else.

That's would be my fear a as Traditionalist if you allow "Too Many" ouside influances enter CH or any other system over time it will be indistiguishable from the rest of the influenaces.

I think to some degree the same thing happen to JKD already from Bruce Lee to Dan Inosanto. JKD now is heavily Filipino and Muay Thai influenced because of Inosanto. Bruce Lee was Wing Chun, Boxing, Fencing, etc. You see it all depends on the individuals personal goals and thoughts. However JKD was designed to be open ended for that to happen and it did.

In Hapkido as Thomas mentioned there's room for our various personalities with-in the Traditional system and still remain HKD. In fact Doju Ji Han Jae who IMHO is the final authority on HKD today has no problem with the individual, he teaches were all different in mind and body so my HKD won't be the same as Thomas's HKD.

As teacher's we'll no doubt have different style's of teaching and that to is very natural. I personally have learned many ideas from various MA, for me all that did was strenghten my HKD by making me realize other applications and ways of seeing the overall picture if you will.

Hapkido itself has all the tools, the differences is how and when to apply them all that's why I see Hapkido as a complete system. So called "Modern SD" can be taught by any Hapkido Instr. the key is an open minded teacher!

[Shihan]

The dictionary defines Tradition as: The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication.

A time-honored practice or set of such practices.

The definition of modern is: Of or relating to recent times or the present: modern history. Characteristic or expressive of recent times or the present; contemporary or up-to-date: a modern lifestyle; a modern way of thinking.

Avant-garde; experimental

I write this to say necessity is the mother of invention. The blackout of summer 2004 in NYC prove how much we depend on technology, but yet we survived. I think the need to hold on strongly to traditions for the sake of preservation is, and please forgive me, a little narrow-minded. The needs and reason for people to learn to protect themselves are different today than when these arts (chinese, japanese, korean etc) first manifest themselves when people were at war. I see nothing wrong with updating skills and fighting techniques to fit the needs of today's society. Now please don't get me wrong, I have much respect for tradition and the masters who pass them down to us. But updating skills with just gun disarms seems to limit us. Or to worry that adding other skills diminish the true essense of the art, or the founder beliefs. Adding stick and knife fighting, grappling to one arsenal, I believes gives a person a better chance to survive and street confrontation. I could be wrong but if yesterday's masters were around today, I bet we would see them make changes to adapt to today's needs. Now before anyone think that I'm attacking traditional ways and views, I'm not. But I think harping too much on wether or not CH is real hapkido, or why it's a kwan, or why the Kido Hae recognize it, I believe is a waste of time. That's just my humble opinion.

[Jungkihapkido]

In fact Doju Ji Han Jae who IMHO is the final authority on HKD today

I would agree that GM Ji is the authority on Sin Moo Hapkido but there are other more senior Hapkidoin from Doju Nim Choi withy much more experience in the founders teaching and techniques.

As I stated before it is nice to have choices of what you prefer. Traditional Orthodox Hapkido, or GM Ji's Sin Moo with more kicking techniques or a number of other veiws on Hapkido.

Take care

[Thomas]

If the core curriculum of CH keeps a true to HKD tech & principles it's possible to remain HKD and not morph into something else.

That's would be my fear a as Traditionalist if you allow "Too Many" ouside influances enter CH or any other system over time it will be indistiguishable from the rest of the influenaces.

I think to some degree the same thing happen to JKD already from Bruce Lee to Dan Inosanto. JKD now is heavily Filipino and Muay Thai influenced because of Inosanto. Bruce Lee was Wing Chun, Boxing, Fencing, etc. You see it all depends on the individuals personal goals and thoughts. However JKD was designed to be open ended for that to happen and it did.

In Hapkido as Thomas mentioned there's room for our various personalities with-in the Traditional system and still remain HKD. In fact Doju Ji Han Jae who IMHO is the final authority on HKD today has no problem with the individual, he teaches were all different in mind and body so my HKD won't be the same as Thomas's HKD.

As teacher's we'll no doubt have different style's of teaching and that to is very natural. I personally have learned many ideas from various MA, for me all that did was strenghten my HKD by making me realize other applications and ways of seeing the overall picture if you will.

Hapkido itself has all the tools, the differences is how and when to apply them all that's why I see Hapkido as a complete system. So called "Modern SD" can be taught by any Hapkido Instr. the key is an open minded teacher!
Great Post!A lot of great insights in there and I completely agree. Thank you!

[mixmastersenior]

To Hapki,
It's funny you should mention Bruce Lee and JKD. That is an exxcellent analogy of what could happen. Of course, with JKD, evolution is exactly the outcome that Bruce Lee wanted. He not only welcomed it, He almost forced it. I guess that is the difference between an art and a system. An art form by it's nature should remain true to it's original roots. The purpose of art is to express and preserve a culture. The purpose of a system is to is to produce a particular outcome or result as quickly and effeciently as possible.
Some of us practice a Martial art, some of us practice a self defense system, and some of us practice both. Just as long as we keep practicing.

[austinso]

In fact Doju Ji Han Jae who IMHO is the final authority on HKD today

I would agree that GM Ji is the authority on Sin Moo Hapkido but there are other more senior Hapkidoin from Doju Nim Choi withy much more experience in the founders teaching and techniques.

Out of curiousity, could you elaborate on your opinions of what constitutes "seniority" and "more experience" viz Master Ji and HKD?

As I stated before it is nice to have choices of what you prefer. Traditional Orthodox Hapkido, or GM Ji's Sin Moo with more kicking techniques or a number of other veiws on Hapkido.

IMHO...what should be paramount in anyone's assessment of a subgroup of HKD is the lineage and the training.

Austin

[MaxG]

I'd have to disagree. IMHO what's paramount is the effectiveness of the system. Not tradition or lineage. I could have a really nice lineage in sport judo and sport taekwondo but how effective are they on the street?

This is imo the downfall of more traditional martial arts. Like someone stated above about preserving the "art" for art's sake. While this is useful for preserving the art for history or tradition, as someone learning to defend myself it's of little value. I'm pretty sure that the mugger with a knife pointed at you could care less whether you have a nice clear lineage to the styles creator on record somewhere

What matters then and there is the effectivess of the style and your training. Not lineage.

The bottom line for any martial "art" to be good is how effective it is in doing one thing. Defending yourself. Let me repeat that. The bottom line for any martial "art" is defending yourself.

Bruce Lee's most imortant contribution imho is not the "art" of JKD so much as the mindset. Take what is useful, discard the rest. Was it his lineage or the effectiveness of what he created that was important? Just look at the MMA events for a prime example of this. Strikers realizing that they need ground skills, grapplers realizing that strikes are effective as well.

Using those as an example I would prefer to train with Bas Rutten who has practically no lineage than with some Joe Schmoe nobody who's only "credit" is the fact that he has a paper trail to Jigaro Kano or other "Master".

Martial Arts from what I've seen is where this is most problematic. When boxers look for a boxing coach do they look for lineage? When police officers and soldiers look for martial arts training do they look for tradition? No! they look for experience and effectiveness!

IMHO it's all about the effectiveness not some paper trail lineage that often times can be "bought". :)

[Thomas]

IMHO...what should be paramount in anyone's assessment of a subgroup of HKD is the lineage and the training.

In my opinion, I have to go with MaxG's assessment on this. I am less concerned with lineage than I am with a good school and good instructors who teach me what I need to know. Beyond that, I think it is the repsonsibility of artists to further evolve the art (while retaining the core concepts and techniques) to make it applicable to the individual and context.

[Shihan]

MaxG and Thomas.

I agree with you 100%. My point was that we shouldn't be overly concern if it's traditional, modern or self defense, but that it's effective. Like you said, a mugger or aggressor doesn't care about the lineage of what we know, as long as we comply with their wishes of submission. I agree that a person should have a foundation of a particular art, and surround it with other arts that will compliment it; allow it to be effective in all ranges of fighting. I believe in doing whatever is necessary to not only live through a violent encounter, but to survive the emotional conflicts of being true to one self. What I mean be this is not allowing anyone, anything, any system to tell you that your techniques in the time of real battle is wrong. To thy own self be true.

[American HKD]

In fact Doju Ji Han Jae who IMHO is the final authority on HKD today

I would agree that GM Ji is the authority on Sin Moo Hapkido but there are other more senior Hapkidoin from Doju Nim Choi withy much more experience in the founders teaching and techniques.

As I stated before it is nice to have choices of what you prefer. Traditional Orthodox Hapkido, or GM Ji's Sin Moo with more kicking techniques or a number of other veiws on Hapkido.

Take care

Todd

I'm not going there anymore it serves no purpose, our traditions are different and we both agree on that fact.

[austinso]

Guys...we are talking about hapkido here.

We are talking about an art that was designed to be effective against all korean martial arts. We are talking about an art that is used by the presidential bodyguards in Korea. We are talking about an art that is used by the police force in Korea. We are talking about an art that used to be used by gangsters against each other.

So what is this nonsense about "effectiveness on the street"?

Lineage matters because good HKD people know good HKD people.

Austin

P.S. Maybe it is not the art that you have learned, but a reflection of your skill level that makes something "ineffective". And with each generation, that "effectiveness" or lack thereof gets compounded...

Signing off the MAP...

[MaxG]

Guys...we are talking about hapkido here.

We are talking about an art that was designed to be effective against all korean martial arts. We are talking about an art that is used by the presidential bodyguards in Korea. We are talking about an art that is used by the police force in Korea. We are talking about an art that used to be used by gangsters against each other.

So what is this nonsense about "effectiveness on the street"?

Lineage matters because good HKD people know good HKD people.

Not to nitpick but your comment was "IMHO...what should be paramount in anyone's assessment of a subgroup of HKD is the lineage and the training."

So I pointed out that what mattered was the subgroups effectiveness. IMHO flying kicks and meditation have no place in training police or military so yes some subgroups that teach such things have techniques in their system that are not very street effective.

Try teaching a law enforcement person to do a flying kick with about 20 pounds of gear on. Bulletproof vest, 2 guns, mace, cuffs, etc. etc. It can add up. Put that stuff on and you'll see what I mean about street effectiveness.

As to the lineage is important comment, thousands of people can trace their "lineage" back to Ji Han Jae does that automatically make every single one of them a good martial artist? The same can be asked of the Choi, Funakoshi, Kano, or pretty much any "master" lineage. The answer is a resounding NO!

Good HKD people know good HKD people. True. But they know bad HKD people too. I know for a fact that noone here can truthfully make the statement that everyone in their lineage is a good martial artist. So why should "lineage" matter then?

Sorry but I just don't believe in the whole "lineage" is paramount viewpoint when it comes to making an assessment of a martial art or artist.

[American HKD]

Guys...we are talking about hapkido here.

We are talking about an art that was designed to be effective against all korean martial arts. We are talking about an art that is used by the presidential bodyguards in Korea. We are talking about an art that is used by the police force in Korea. We are talking about an art that used to be used by gangsters against each other.

So what is this nonsense about "effectiveness on the street"?

Lineage matters because good HKD people know good HKD people.

Austin

P.S. Maybe it is not the art that you have learned, but a reflection of your skill level that makes something "ineffective". And with each generation, that "effectiveness" or lack thereof gets compounded...

Signing off the MAP...

MY thoughts exactly when I hear these comparisons. It just shows me 2 things.

1. People here don'r have the expirience to realize HKD needs no Combat version.

2. People don't have good instr. that show them how to use the material in the HKD curriculum.

All to ofter I hear people say stuff like "you guys just stand there and grab each others wrists".

That's only true when learning and perfecting techniques nothing more, not part of active self defense training.

[American HKD]

Not to nitpick but your comment was "IMHO...what should be paramount in anyone's assessment of a subgroup of HKD is the lineage and the training."

So I pointed out that what mattered was the subgroups effectiveness. IMHO flying kicks and meditation have no place in training police or military so yes some subgroups that teach such things have techniques in their system that are not very street effective.

Try teaching a law enforcement person to do a flying kick with about 20 pounds of gear on. Bulletproof vest, 2 guns, mace, cuffs, etc. etc. It can add up. Put that stuff on and you'll see what I mean about street effectiveness.

As to the lineage is important comment, thousands of people can trace their "lineage" back to Ji Han Jae does that automatically make every single one of them a good martial artist? The same can be asked of the Choi, Funakoshi, Kano, or pretty much any "master" lineage. The answer is a resounding NO!

Good HKD people know good HKD people. True. But they know bad HKD people too. I know for a fact that noone here can truthfully make the statement that everyone in their lineage is a good martial artist. So why should "lineage" matter then?

Sorry but I just don't believe in the whole "lineage" is paramount viewpoint when it comes to making an assessment of a martial art or artist.

Greetings

You should be more opened minded.

True flying kick are not needed for police work, however it's still good mind and body training. HKD has many tech to use it's your choice ultimaltely which one you want to use or incorporate into your police work or everyday SD.

Meditation helps anyones mind, controls breathing, focus mind, improves perception skills, all military, cops, Joe blow, etc can benefit if they try.

Lineage doesn't make you good if you don't practice, however it does prove that you wre at least taught by someone who's legit. If you are good then it's a honor for you and your Master and you Kwan.

[Thomas]

1. People here don'r have the expirience to realize HKD needs no Combat version.

Sorry to nitpick... but being the "Combat Hapkido" thread, I guess I will.

I do have the experience to compare Traditional Hapkido with Combat Hapkido.


We have beeen over this before. The term "Combat" was added merely to differentiate between traditional hapkido and GM Pellegrini's teachings. The word "Combat" was used to imply that the art was focused on self defence and was open to allowing other arts and concepts to be added to the style.

It's funny because if you talk to most "Combat Hapkido" people, most of us have a great deal of respect for traditional hapkido... as that is where the roots come from. I doubt you will ever hear any Combat Hapkido guys putting down Traditional Hapkido as being ineffective. The biggest difference is that GM Pellegrini and his students want to use the base of Traditional Hapkido to blend with other arts... something I doubt you will see in Traditional schools. That's why he differentiated the name.

I found traditional hapkido to be a great art and very complete. The base skills, breathing, striking, self defence and foundation are a core part of who I am. Combat Hapkido uses the same base. The biggest difference I have found, along "combat" lines is that through Combat Hapkido I can choose to add specialized training that I wouldn't normally find in a Hapkido school and I can do under my own instructors and through the Federation. What I am talking about is stuff like Filipino stick and knife skills, gracie style ground grappling, wc style trapping. The concepts are all the same but we spend the time blending these skills into what we do. That's why we aren't "traditional" hapkido... we are "combat" hapkido. We aren't saying one is better than the other... I like them both.

I personally would rather spend my time training and learning more about Hapkido than arguing who is more "pure" and why we all should hate such-and-such branch.

[American HKD]

Sorry to nitpick... but being the "Combat Hapkido" thread, I guess I will.

I do have the experience to compare Traditional Hapkido with Combat Hapkido.


We have beeen over this before. The term "Combat" was added merely to differentiate between traditional hapkido and GM Pellegrini's teachings. The word "Combat" was used to imply that the art was focused on self defence and was open to allowing other arts and concepts to be added to the style.

It's funny because if you talk to most "Combat Hapkido" people, most of us have a great deal of respect for traditional hapkido... as that is where the roots come from. I doubt you will ever hear any Combat Hapkido guys putting down Traditional Hapkido as being ineffective. The biggest difference is that GM Pellegrini and his students want to use the base of Traditional Hapkido to blend with other arts... something I doubt you will see in Traditional schools. That's why he differentiated the name.

I found traditional hapkido to be a great art and very complete. The base skills, breathing, striking, self defence and foundation are a core part of who I am. Combat Hapkido uses the same base. The biggest difference I have found, along "combat" lines is that through Combat Hapkido I can choose to add specialized training that I wouldn't normally find in a Hapkido school and I can do under my own instructors and through the Federation. What I am talking about is stuff like Filipino stick and knife skills, gracie style ground grappling, wc style trapping. The concepts are all the same but we spend the time blending these skills into what we do. That's why we aren't "traditional" hapkido... we are "combat" hapkido. We aren't saying one is better than the other... I like them both.

I personally would rather spend my time training and learning more about Hapkido than arguing who is more "pure" and why we all should hate such-and-such branch.

Greetings

Dear Thomas

I have no desire to agrue who's better personally I'm sick of the whole thing.

I know YOU know the difference between CH & HKD, unfortunatley most students who have never compared or don't have the expirience to can't see the forrest from the trees.

The term alone "Combat" added to Hapkido automatiically implies it's a more combat ready version which it's not and most knowledgable Masters will agree, however people believe anything they read. CH is based on HKD and therefore must be respected by the CH camp in some sense, or why would CH be any good to use a bad core for a system?

I didn't choose the name but I said before JP picked a great name for creating the confusion across the board whether he meant to or not.

[Thomas]

I didn't choose the name but I said before JP picked a great name for creating the confusion across the board whether he meant to or not.
Ha ha ha ha ha! Such true words!


I do sincerely hope that Combat Hapkido practitioners will take advantage of traditional hapkido schools and seminars (like the GM Ji Han Jae visit - I'd like to go but I will be a testing partner for my instructor that weekend!). Also, through GM In Sun Seo's support and recognition of the ICHF, he is available for some awesome seminars as well. Combat Hapkdio seminars are open and I hope Traditional Hapkdio artists can take a chance and see how much "hapkido" is there! I also know of many schools and instrcutors that would love to host visitors from different systems. Good training!

[Shihan]

Gentlemen,

I think Thomas hit the nail on the head. While I'm only a 1st dan in HKD, I do appreciate the subtle differences between HKD and CH. I think it allows someone like me who started training late in his life (I started at 38. Now I'm 43) to continue training and not further injure my back because of all the throws that HKD encompass. I never thought or said that CH is better or more effective than HKD, but that we shouldn't get so caught up in names, lineage, or tradition. I believe we should use whatever works for us. I do like the way CH is structured from the trial class I took that evening, and believes in it effectiveness. And I appreciate that Master Medina works dynamically rather than static when teaching a technique so one can appreciate its combat effectiveness. In the end I'm not here to argue that one is better than the other. I just like to believe that this is a common ground were we can all meet.

[American HKD]

Ha ha ha ha ha! Such true words!


I do sincerely hope that Combat Hapkido practitioners will take advantage of traditional hapkido schools and seminars (like the GM Ji Han Jae visit - I'd like to go but I will be a testing partner for my instructor that weekend!). Also, through GM In Sun Seo's support and recognition of the ICHF, he is available for some awesome seminars as well. Combat Hapkdio seminars are open and I hope Traditional Hapkdio artists can take a chance and see how much "hapkido" is there! I also know of many schools and instrcutors that would love to host visitors from different systems. Good training!

I'll second those thoughs!

[mixmastersenior]

I don't think anyone is going to claim that CH is going to replace HKD. If someone has the time and opportunity, I think they should study as much from the traditional kwans as possible. Think of Combat Hapkido as a protein bar, and Traditional Hapkido as a 5 course meal. Both are nutritious, both serve the purpose of feeding your body, but they are hardly interchangable.
Some may not have the time to enjoy the full meal, but they should'nt have to go hungry. And on the other hand, no matter how busy one gets, it's still nice to sit down and savor the full dining experience. I suppose you could fill up on protein bars, but that could be a bit boring. I'm probably getting myself into real trouble with this analogy. This is obviously an over simplification. Combat Hapkido and Traditional Hapkido are certainly not enemys, they are not even on different sides of the fence. There is far more common ground than differences.

[MaxG]

Greetings
You should be more opened minded.

Open minded to using techniques that have proven to have absolutely no value in the real world? No thanks. I would rather spend my time training in techniques that are proven to work. More ground fighting, trapping, weapons you can actually legally use in modern times. I'd rather spend my time doing that than spending weeks trying to perfect a cartwheel kick or jumping off a wall and trying to kick someone in the head. Or how about those one legged kicks that you see in movies! Where Jean Claude Van Damme balances on one foot and kicks the guy like 10 different times! Reality training at it's finest! :bang:

I had the option to join either a traditional hapkido school or combat hapkido so I went and checked out both classes. I pretty much knew which one I wanted when they started doing spinning jump hook kicks in the traditional hapkido school. :rolleyes:

And training your body and mind doesn't come from specific techniques it comes from training in the martial arts in general. Or are you saying that martial arts without meditation and flying kicks don't train you in mind/body coordination?

And let's be honest you stating for me to have an open mind is pretty ridiculous. Considering I'm open minded enough to see the value of changes in Hapkido as well as crosstraining in numerous martial arts and you're on record for pretty much bashing anything that tries to "change" traditional hapkido in anyway. But for some reason commend Ji Han Jae for adding to what Choi taught. I'm still confused on that one.


True flying kick are not needed for police work, however it's still good mind and body training. HKD has many tech to use it's your choice ultimaltely which one you want to use or incorporate into your police work or everyday SD.

Meditation helps anyones mind, controls breathing, focus mind, improves perception skills, all military, cops, Joe blow, etc can benefit if they try.

Lineage doesn't make you good if you don't practice, however it does prove that you wre at least taught by someone who's legit. If you are good then it's a honor for you and your Master and you Kwan.

Well, I'm glad we agree that lineage doesn't automatically prove that you're good.

But please don't tell me to be open minded (and subtly implying I'm close minded) just because I (and many others) consider flying kicks and high kicks a total waste of time (and I am quite capable of kicking men 6'+ in the head). It's not that difficult for people to go back and read both our past posts and see who is really more open minded. So let's try to keep the personal attacks out of this (even subtle ones).

I also noticed you posted "most students who have never compared or don't have the expirience to can't see the forrest from the trees."

We've been pretty much having this debate for the better part of a year maybe more. I'm curious in that time have you tried CH yet so you can see the forest from the trees?

[American HKD]

Open minded to using techniques that have proven to have absolutely no value in the real world? No thanks. I would rather spend my time training in techniques that are proven to work. More ground fighting, trapping, weapons you can actually legally use in modern times. I'd rather spend my time doing that than spending weeks trying to perfect a cartwheel kick or jumping off a wall and trying to kick someone in the head. Or how about those one legged kicks that you see in movies! Where Jean Claude Van Damme balances on one foot and kicks the guy like 10 different times! Reality training at it's finest! :bang:

I had the option to join either a traditional hapkido school or combat hapkido so I went and checked out both classes. I pretty much knew which one I wanted when they started doing spinning jump hook kicks in the traditional hapkido school. :rolleyes:

And training your body and mind doesn't come from specific techniques it comes from training in the martial arts in general. Or are you saying that martial arts without meditation and flying kicks don't train you in mind/body coordination?

And let's be honest you stating for me to have an open mind is pretty ridiculous. Considering I'm open minded enough to see the value of changes in Hapkido as well as crosstraining in numerous martial arts and you're on record for pretty much bashing anything that tries to "change" traditional hapkido in anyway. But for some reason commend Ji Han Jae for adding to what Choi taught. I'm still confused on that one.



Well, I'm glad we agree that lineage doesn't automatically prove that you're good.

But please don't tell me to be open minded (and subtly implying I'm close minded) just because I (and many others) consider flying kicks and high kicks a total waste of time (and I am quite capable of kicking men 6'+ in the head). It's not that difficult for people to go back and read both our past posts and see who is really more open minded. So let's try to keep the personal attacks out of this (even subtle ones).

I also noticed you posted "most students who have never compared or don't have the expirience to can't see the forrest from the trees."

We've been pretty much having this debate for the better part of a year maybe more. I'm curious in that time have you tried CH yet so you can see the forest from the trees?

Greetings

I.m not interested in fighting with you your post is fairly hostile with that being said.

I believe I know the forest from the trees, but we see things more a like in the sense that I agree you have to use what works and for many HKD works even the high kicks.

All techniques work given the right time and place and meditation has been a part of Asian MA forever for a reason if your not comfortable with it, that's your loss. All in all to deny valid concepts is close minded to some degree.

How we get to the end result is something we'll just agree to dis-agree on.

[austinso]

Not to nitpick but your comment was "IMHO...what should be paramount in anyone's assessment of a subgroup of HKD is the lineage and the training."

I'm glad you quoted me...did you read it carefully? I said lineage AND TRAINING.

And remember that this is a thread about HKD.

So I pointed out that what mattered was the subgroups effectiveness.

All techniques are effective so long as they are applied in the appropriate context.

IMHO flying kicks and meditation have no place in training police or military so yes some subgroups that teach such things have techniques in their system that are not very street effective.

So take what you need, but don't go running off claiming ineffectiveness of an art or uselessness of a technique because you can't make something work or because you simply do not understand.

Try teaching a law enforcement person to do a flying kick with about 20 pounds of gear on. Bulletproof vest, 2 guns, mace, cuffs, etc. etc. It can add up. Put that stuff on and you'll see what I mean about street effectiveness.

Sure...next time I'm on the street, I will be sure to wear all that stuff and more...you know...because that is the "street".

As to the lineage is important comment, thousands of people can trace their "lineage" back to Ji Han Jae does that automatically make every single one of them a good martial artist?

Did I *say* that? Read it again.

Let me ask you this...how many dojangs do you know *without* a record of lineage and training are good? How many dojangs do you know with a record of lineage and training are good? What do you think odds favour?

The point is that by being able to show this, you are demonstrating that you really tried to study an art to its fullest potential. That you tried to immerse yourself into all the finer details of an art. i.e. You are showing that you are not a hack...and an arrogant one at that...

The same can be asked of the Choi, Funakoshi, Kano, or pretty much any "master" lineage. The answer is a resounding NO!

*Applause*.

Please...

Good HKD people know good HKD people. True. But they know bad HKD people too. I know for a fact that noone here can truthfully make the statement that everyone in their lineage is a good martial artist. So why should "lineage" matter then?

Well...it is clear that you desperately want to cling onto a speck of the argument and apply it to the big picture. It may work for some, but it won't work with me.

At no point did I state that everyone within a particular lineage is good. That is a point you are concocting. And that is why I stated that training was important in addition to lineage.

Dig?

Sorry but I just don't believe in the whole "lineage" is paramount viewpoint when it comes to making an assessment of a martial art or artist.

Well jolly for you then...settle with mediocrity and defend it to the bitter end...

Austin

[American HKD]

I'm glad you quoted me...did you read it carefully? I said lineage AND TRAINING.

And remember that this is a thread about HKD.



All techniques are effective so long as they are applied in the appropriate context.



So take what you need, but don't go running off claiming ineffectiveness of an art or uselessness of a technique because you can't make something work or because you simply do not understand.



Sure...next time I'm on the street, I will be sure to wear all that stuff and more...you know...because that is the "street".



Did I *say* that? Read it again.

Let me ask you this...how many dojangs do you know *without* a record of lineage and training are good? How many dojangs do you know with a record of lineage and training are good? What do you think odds favour?

The point is that by being able to show this, you are demonstrating that you really tried to study an art to its fullest potential. That you tried to immerse yourself into all the finer details of an art. i.e. You are showing that you are not a hack...and an arrogant one at that...



*Applause*.

Please...



Well...it is clear that you desperately want to cling onto a speck of the argument and apply it to the big picture. It may work for some, but it won't work with me.

At no point did I state that everyone within a particular lineage is good. That is a point you are concocting. And that is why I stated that training was important in addition to lineage.

Dig?



Well jolly for you then...settle with mediocrity and defend it to the bitter end...

Austin

Greetings

I agree with you once more.

I beleive someone needs anger management, maybe its from being on the job to long with 20lbs of gear and can't do a jump kick?

Just kidding :rolleyes:

I have found the only people who hate linage are the ones with out it.
As a side note I noticed the BJJ guys are big on lineage as well I wonder why?

[Midnight Mist]

can’t see the forest for the trees

An expression used of someone who is too involved in the details of a problem to look at the situation as a whole: “The congressman became so involved in the wording of his bill that he couldn’t see the forest for the trees; he did not realize that the bill could never pass.”

http://www.bartleby.com/59/4/cantseethefo.html

[MaxG]

Greetings
I.m not interested in fighting with you your post is fairly hostile with that being said.

I was very polite. I even said please but if that's how you wish to take it. Then fine. That's your decision.


I believe I know the forest from the trees, but we see things more a like in the sense that I agree you have to use what works and for many HKD works even the high kicks.


So let me get this straight. You say that people that have never trained in traditional hapkido are pretty much blind. Can't see the forest but for some reasoning that viewpoint doesn't apply to you. It's ok for you to judge something without training in it but not others.

Somehow that just doesn't make sense to me.


All techniques work given the right time and place and meditation has been a part of Asian MA forever for a reason if your not comfortable with it, that's your loss. All in all to deny valid concepts is close minded to some degree.

Valid concepts? You're definition of valid must be different than mine. Meditation making you a better fighter... I'm curious how did you "validate" that?

And if all techniques work then we would never have evolution of martial arts we'd all be still fighting like shaolin monks.

Do you still teach students to x-block a knife attack? I'm just curious.


How we get to the end result is something we'll just agree to dis-agree on.

Yeah, that's pretty much the usual result with me an traditionalists. So we'll agree to disagree.

[MaxG]

I'm glad you quoted me...did you read it carefully? I said lineage AND TRAINING.

And remember that this is a thread about HKD.


Actually it's a thread on Combat Hapkido.


All techniques are effective so long as they are applied in the appropriate context.


Are you still training to x-block a knife attack as well?


So take what you need, but don't go running off claiming ineffectiveness of an art or uselessness of a technique because you can't make something work or because you simply do not understand.


Who do you really think understands reality fighting? Me advocating low kicks or those saying flying kicks and meditation are useful in real fights? Let's both be "real" here.


Sure...next time I'm on the street, I will be sure to wear all that stuff and more...you know...because that is the "street".


But flying hook kicks are? :bang:


Let me ask you this...how many dojangs do you know *without* a record of lineage and training are good? How many dojangs do you know with a record of lineage and training are good? What do you think odds favour?

All I've seen from dojangs/dojos/schools in general that boast lineage are schools afraid to evolve, too traditional to concentrate on the important thing: teaching students to survive an attack.


*Applause*.

Please...


Is that supposed to be an intelligent response advocating more debate or more a childish response trying to incite? Hmmmm...


At no point did I state that everyone within a particular lineage is good. That is a point you are concocting. And that is why I stated that training was important in addition to lineage.

Dig?

And I'm saying it's just training and effectiveness. If you have that who cares about lineage? Dig?


Well jolly for you then...settle with mediocrity and defend it to the bitter end...

Austin

So all schools without "lineage" are mediocre huh? Wow. How openminded of you.

[American HKD]

I was very polite. I even said please but if that's how you wish to take it. Then fine. That's your decision.



So let me get this straight. You say that people that have never trained in traditional hapkido are pretty much blind. Can't see the forest but for some reasoning that viewpoint doesn't apply to you. It's ok for you to judge something without training in it but not others.

Somehow that just doesn't make sense to me.



Valid concepts? You're definition of valid must be different than mine. Meditation making you a better fighter... I'm curious how did you "validate" that?

And if all techniques work then we would never have evolution of martial arts we'd all be still fighting like shaolin monks.

Do you still teach students to x-block a knife attack? I'm just curious.



Yeah, that's pretty much the usual result with me an traditionalists. So we'll agree to disagree.

Greetings

Now I understand now that you admitt to being an anti-traditionist, I suspected as much.

I like discussions even if ones diagrees, as longs as it's done respectfully, but now I see you'll just disagree on anything that reaks of tradition for no VALID reason.

I'll remember never to dialog with you at this point.

[Shihan]

I don't think anyone is going to claim that CH is going to replace HKD. If someone has the time and opportunity, I think they should study as much from the traditional kwans as possible. Think of Combat Hapkido as a protein bar, and Traditional Hapkido as a 5 course meal. Both are nutritious, both serve the purpose of feeding your body, but they are hardly interchangable.
Some may not have the time to enjoy the full meal, but they should'nt have to go hungry. And on the other hand, no matter how busy one gets, it's still nice to sit down and savor the full dining experience. I suppose you could fill up on protein bars, but that could be a bit boring. I'm probably getting myself into real trouble with this analogy. This is obviously an over simplification. Combat Hapkido and Traditional Hapkido are certainly not enemys, they are not even on different sides of the fence. There is far more common ground than differences.

Mixmaster,

I disagree. This isn't over simplification. Like the acronym K.I.S (keep it simple), I believe it to be correct. I think we get hung up on labels that in the long run means nothing when come time to defend yourself. While I don't pretend to be a master of any martial arts, I do know fighting. Any style of martial arts you study, certain principles will always be the same: a front kick is a front kick whether it's korean, chinese, japanese etc. The same can be said for punches,some locks, take downs. Just the names are different. I do realize that there are fundamental differances to each art also, such as philosophy and modes of training. To me, martail arts training is like a journey up a mountain; some travel the west side of the mountain, others the east, north and south. But the goal is to reach the top. To reach our highest potential through mental and physical training.

[Shihan]

Gentlemen,

I realize that most of you are probably my martial arts senior (I'm just a 1st dan in HKD), but we have to remember that it's ok for us to agree to disagree. This is the root of most problems. We get so stuck in our own way of thinking, we never stop and look at something from the other side. I believe the HKD and CH both exist because there's a need for both in our society. GM Pellegrini's CH would have never seen the success it has if there wasn't a need for it. Am I wrong on this point ? True, I can see where the name "Combat" may make the unknowing believe that it's most effective that HKD, but we who have studied and practice the art know this isn't true. It's just another expression of Hapkido. One that I'm willing to learn because it fits my needs at this stage in my life. Not that it's better than HKD. Now while I wouldn't do a flying kick in a SD situation, a person who's a best kicker and most athletic could get away with it. Does it make that person or his/her technique wrong? I don't think so. Just like I and some other favor low kicks, does that make us wrong? I doubt it. We all work with the weapons available to us. Those that we are comfortable with. Those that we feel we help us succeed in our time or need. I have friends who are correction officers and they tell me how prisoners practice gun take aways/defense from cops. Knife and robbery techniques to use on civilians. And a form of fighting called "jailhouse fighting". I hear it brutal and effective. Now I don't know about you guys, but that's scary to me. So instead of jawing off about tradition, combat or even modern hapkido, I think we should be exchanging skills sets so to better protect ourselves and our families. So whether we believe in tradition ,lineage or modern, to me it matters not; WE IN HERE ARE NOT THE EMENY !!! Let's see if we can work together through this forum. Peace my martial arts brothers.

[wild_pitch]

"Do you still teach students to x-block a knife attack? I'm just curious."

hmm i don't really want to get to involved in this discussion, but i have never seen anyone at my club learn knife defenses by using an X block.

is this something you were taught in a hapkido class?

[American HKD]

"Do you still teach students to x-block a knife attack? I'm just curious."

hmm i don't really want to get to involved in this discussion, but i have never seen anyone at my club learn knife defenses by using an X block.

is this something you were taught in a hapkido class?

Greetings,

Many blocks, X, Knife hand, rising, low are foundational "BASIC" material.

The plain X block has it's time and place as do all MA techniques however it teaches principles for advanced material.

Trad MA works by building a foundation to expand on, it rarely gives out the advanced application or techniques to low level students. It was designed that way on purpose, as you all know schools and clans were protecting the material for self preservation reasons.

Today most curriculums do similar things for different reason, they only teach long term students who are dedicated to the Art the advanced material.

There are very good off shoots of the X block seen in HKD that transition to lock and throws, etc. very well, very similar to praying mantis KF. These type of skills are used in KF, Jujutsu, Aiki Jujutsu, Advanced forms of Kartate, Kenpo, Kali, etc.

If your not familiar what I mean sorry it's to hard to write the whole thing out seeing is infinately better.

For anyone to single out an X block or any tech in the basic form to make fun of any Trad MA are not well schooled in MA and MA history and developement or they would know better.

That last paragraph was NOT directed to you wild pitch just a general statement.

[MaxG]

Greetings

Now I understand now that you admitt to being an anti-traditionist, I suspected as much.

I like discussions even if ones diagrees, as longs as it's done respectfully, but now I see you'll just disagree on anything that reaks of tradition for no VALID reason.

I'll remember never to dialog with you at this point.

Kinda like how you pretty much disagree on anything trying to update hapkido ? It get's kinda old how you start up these threads pretty much bashing anything but Ji Han Jae hapkido.

Martial Art versus Martial Sport
Not another style!
What type of fight...

etc. etc. etc.

and have you noticed that all those threads you start a majority seem to end up as flame wars? Your bashing other hapkido styles isn't wanted here. Figure it out.

Any traditional martial art that refuses to evolve is a bane on martial arts. Tradition is a concept for family gatherings, keeping old practices alive, or helping remember the past. BUT when your life is at stake your training shouldn't be limited by an instructors stubborn traditional values.


For anyone to single out an X block or any tech in the basic form to make fun of any Trad MA are not well schooled in MA and MA history and developement or they would know better.

That last paragraph was directed to you wild pitch just a general statement.

You're kidding right? Your subtle attacks are really getting old. I'm glad you and I won't be "dialoging" anymore. I prefer debates when people actually mean what they say and say what they mean.

[MaxG]

To all:

Please make note than I'm not attacking any particular art. Every martial art does have techniques that are effective and practical.

What I'm attacking are techniques that have been proven time and time again not to work in a reality situation. We fight like we train! And in any given confrontation instinct is what comes out of our bodies. For those that train in spinning hook kicks, flying kicks or any flashy move this is detrimental.

What if your instinct in a confrontation is a flying kick.
What if your instinct in a confrontation is a spinning hook kick.
What if your instinct to block a downward knife attack is an x-block.

We as instructors have the #1 responsibility to teach our students the best way to survive a confrontation. We have a responsibility to teach them skills to defend themselves in the most efficient and realistic way possible. This responsibility is much greater than keeping with tradition or protecting the lineage.

[American HKD]

Dear Max

Who are you if you don't mind revealing yourself I'm really courious to know who I'm talking to and your background and credentials in HKD or other MA, maybe others are also.

Most people talk about pretty easy and layed back things on the forum, I try to make people think and discover Hapkido's is just Hapkido, different tatics, and yes what to do in a street fight.

Some people get all hot about it, so what it's good to talk about better than picking on X blocks and flying kicks IMO.

Instr. may need to teach better way of application but the technical aspects are all very valid for the most part, nothing being pefect.

Lastly there are many Kwans or styles of HKD recoginzed world wide as quailty systems just as there are ones that aren't, my problem only lies in the ones created by Joe "Self appointed bought and paid for GM" or the you appoint me I'll appoint you club. All the rest of the system are great!

P.S. Don't forget to give us your MA Bio.

BTW in general I think it would be a good idea for everyone to do that I think it helps people know who's who and What's what.

[MaxG]

And here I thought I was lucky enough to not have to "dialog" with you anymore.

Is this the part where you say that "Oh, he's only so and so dan. He doesn't know anything."

I have over 12 years experience in training in self defense.

3 years wrestling
3 years boxing
3 years Shotokan
3 years Combat Hapkido (currently still training)
2 years Kick Boxing (currently still training)
1 year Brazilian Jiujitsu (currently still training)
1 year Catch Wrestling (currently still training)

I'm not going to go into detail about certifications and such because that just seems desperate to me.

"Look everyone I've been Cane Master certified, Expandable Baton certified, etc. etc."

In those 10+ years I have trained hundreds of indviduals including military and police. Who by the way I know not to waste time in training spinning hook kicks to.

As you can see I am a very diverse and well rounded martial artist. This gives me a broader view of the martial arts as opposed to a myopic viewpoint one can get in only learning 1 or 2 styles.

Oh, I see you started another thread which again was a not so subtle knod towards me. Sigh... say what you mean for once Stuart.

Oh and I'm 14? Lol, your insight is truly amazing! I must have been an awesome 1 year old on the mat.

I've noticed you do that alot Stuart when you can't prove things you cling desperately to rank, and age. "Look I'm older and I have rank under Ji Han Jae. I must be right." :rolleyes:

Do your younger students know you have no respect for them Stuart?

Oh and for your information my current instructor was trained by Ji Han Jae for 15 years so in essence I could also be considered 2nd generation under Ji Han Jae himself. I however will not affiliate myself with someone who waited until the real creator was dead before claiming he was the creator of Hapkido.

[American HKD]

And here I thought I was lucky enough to not have to "dialog" with you anymore.

Is this the part where you say that "Oh, he's only so and so dan. He doesn't know anything."

I have over 12 years experience in training in self defense.

3 years wrestling
3 years boxing
3 years Shotokan
3 years Combat Hapkido (currently still training)
2 years Kick Boxing (currently still training)
1 year Brazilian Jiujitsu (currently still training)
1 year Catch Wrestling (currently still training)

I'm not going to go into detail about certifications and such because that just seems desperate to me.

"Look everyone I've been Cane Master certified, Expandable Baton certified, etc. etc."

In those 10+ years I have trained hundreds of indviduals including military and police. Who by the way I know not to waste time in training spinning hook kicks to.

As you can see I am a very diverse and well rounded martial artist. This gives me a broader view of the martial arts as opposed to a myopic viewpoint one can get in only learning 1 or 2 styles.

Oh, I see you started another thread which again was a not so subtle knod towards me. Sigh... say what you mean for once Stuart.

Oh and I'm 14? Lol, your insight is truly amazing! I must have been an awesome 1 year old on the mat.

I've noticed you do that alot Stuart when you can't prove things you cling desperately to rank, and age. "Look I'm older and I have rank under Ji Han Jae. I must be right." :rolleyes:

Do your younger students know you have no respect for them Stuart?

Oh and for your information my current instructor was trained by Ji Han Jae for 15 years so in essence I could also be considered 2nd generation under Ji Han Jae himself. I however will not affiliate myself with someone who waited until the real creator was dead before claiming he was the creator of Hapkido.

Greetings

Thanks for the info, HOWEVER GUESS YOUR NOT THAT LUCKY I'm still here.

I hate to tell you have no clue who I am or what I'm about. All your assumtions about what I think are totalty off the wall.

Yes I have my opinion as you do and I explained my postion a few posts ago.

I don't care about your background it's just good to see you actually have one and I'm not talking to 12 yr old green belt after ALL THIS!

The other thread about posting names, ages, ranks, was not about you, its widespread on this forum and I think it's a good idea to know who's who.

Lastly I'm a Trad HKD guy and make no excusses for it and I'm proud of my time in the MA and who I was taught by cause it works for me.

I really don't care in the least how many styles you do, however I will say as a fact from your time in HKD you would be considered a novice no matter how opinionated you are and what you think you know regarding Traditional HKD and it's techniques.

[MaxG]

Greetings
Thanks for the info, HOWEVER GUESS YOUR NOT THAT LUCKY I'm still here.

I hate to tell you have no clue who I am or what I'm about. All your assumtions about what I think are totalty off the wall.

I base this off your numerous. numerous posts bashing everything but Ji Han Jae hapkido. I'm pretty much sure I got what you think. No one in this forum posts as many negative topics bound to start flame wars as much as you do.


I don't care about your background it's just good to see you actually have one and I'm not talking to 12 yr old green belt after ALL THIS!

Then why did you ask? Or were you hoping that I had only started martial training a few months ago like you speculated in the other thread and hope that would rally readers to your side?


The other thread about posting names, ages, ranks, was not about you, its widespread on this forum and I think it's a good idea to know who's who.

Say what you mean and mean what you say Stuart... it'll earn you alot more respect instead of these not so subtle attacks on people and styles. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out. You asked for my background in this thread and then start up that thread a few hours later...


Lastly I'm a Trad HKD guy and make no excusses for it and I'm proud of my time in the MA and who I was taught by cause it works for me.

Yes, we all know that. You shoud be proud of your accomplishments as should anyone in the styles you not so subtly belittle. What our problem is in your attacks on other styles and our completely different viewpoints on what works and what doesn't. As I stated before when your life is on the line your training shouldn't be limited to tradition.


I really don't care in the least how many styles you do, however I will say as a fact from your time in HKD you would be considered a novice no matter how opinionated you are and what you think you know regarding Traditional HKD and it's techniques.

Sigh... did I call that or what? See? "He's only so and so dan. He doesn't know anything." See Stuart I do know how you think.

And I would say as a fact that I know how to defend myself as much if not more than you do because of the fact I have trained and continuously train in other styles. MY eyes are still open. There is not anything you could show me that I haven't seen before Stuart so let's get off the whole traditional mindset of "I'm higher dan I must know more than him". And I could almost guarantee I am a better teacher because one thing is foremost in my mind: The safety of my students not 50 year old tradition or bothering about lineage.

Your disrespect for other martial art styles is something I have never seen in an instructor and I'm glad it's rare. It's the antithesis of learning and harmony among the martial arts. Things I learned are paramount in the martial arts as a lowly white belt. Do yourself a favor Stuart. Take off the Black Belt occasionally like I do frequently and go start a new martial art. A different martial art nothing like Hapkido. It may open your eyes to those numerous martial arts you attack.

[American HKD]

I base this off your numerous. numerous posts bashing everything but Ji Han Jae hapkido. I'm pretty much sure I got what you think. No one in this forum posts as many negative topics bound to start flame wars as much as you do.



Then why did you ask? Or were you hoping that I had only started martial training a few months ago like you speculated in the other thread and hope that would rally readers to your side?



Say what you mean and mean what you say Stuart... it'll earn you alot more respect instead of these not so subtle attacks on people and styles. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out. You asked for my background in this thread and then start up that thread a few hours later...



Yes, we all know that. You shoud be proud of your accomplishments as should anyone in the styles you not so subtly belittle. What our problem is in your attacks on other styles and our completely different viewpoints on what works and what doesn't. As I stated before when your life is on the line your training shouldn't be limited to tradition.



Sigh... did I call that or what? See? "He's only so and so dan. He doesn't know anything." See Stuart I do know how you think.

And I would say as a fact that I know how to defend myself as much if not more than you do because of the fact I have trained and continuously train in other styles. MY eyes are still open. There is not anything you could show me that I haven't seen before Stuart so let's get off the whole traditional mindset of "I'm higher dan I must know more than him". And I could almost guarantee I am a better teacher because one thing is foremost in my mind: The safety of my students not 50 year old tradition or bothering about lineage.

Your disrespect for other martial art styles is something I have never seen in an instructor and I'm glad it's rare. It's the antithesis of learning and harmony among the martial arts. Things I learned are paramount in the martial arts as a lowly white belt. Do yourself a favor Stuart. Take off the Black Belt occasionally like I do frequently and go start a new martial art. A different martial art nothing like Hapkido. It may open your eyes to those numerous martial arts you attack.

Greetings

Your a 10th dan expert spin doctor for sure taking 99% out of context at least I know your not a 12 year old green belt.

I have a couple of years in Kali, shotokan, ninjutsu a little, okanawin kempo as a kid, I also hold dans ranks in TKD and Jujitsu. One can learn a lot in over 28 years in the Arts but I only am considered a master in HKD that my main Art period. I did however learn alot from the others.

Also I'm sure you can defend yourself with your expirience I was pretty good myself after about 10 years in the arts.

However the main difference between us is you havn't mastered anything jumping all around, sure what you do has it's pros and cons. I'm happy with my path.

[MaxG]

Greetings
Your a 10th dan expert spin doctor for sure taking 99% out of context at least I know your not a 12 year old green belt.

I keep it real. Seriously which one of us has a mindset more like a 12 year old green belt? Me the openminded one rallying behind the evolution of Hapkido and other martial arts or Mr. MY style of Hapkido is better than everyone else's and there is no need for any variations or evolution?


I have a couple of years in Kali, shotokan, ninjutsu a little, okanawin kempo as a kid, I also hold dans ranks in TKD and Jujitsu. One can learn a lot in over 28 years in the Arts but I only am considered a master in HKD that my main Art period. I did however learn alot from the others.

I remember the threads with your comments on your limited time in some of those arts. But of course I see your biasedness. Comparing resumes I have as much experience in taking various martial arts as you. Which is kinda sad considering You have nearly 20 years on me. Some would say that is kind of a waste. All you really earned in those extra years is a political title. The techniques you learned from 1st dan to 6th dan are but a handful compared to what you could have learned from white to black in other styles. Think of all you could have learned if you crosstrained more.

But if you're happy then you're happy. :confused:



Also I'm sure you can defend yourself with your expirience I was pretty good myself after about 10 years in the arts.

However the main difference between us is you havn't mastered anything jumping all around, sure what you do has it's pros and cons. I'm happy with my path.

I'm glad you're happy with your path. But do you seriously think that "master" title means anything in the street or ring? As anyone whose been in the martial arts know after early dan's rising up is entirely political and those that require techniques are either just variations on what you've learned before or techniques from other styles.

Also if for some reason you somehow gained a better understanding of the mechanics and applications of a snakelock, centerlock or any other technique from 1st dan to 6th dan. Then I'm sorry to say you weren't trained right and really never should have gotten your black belt. We train our students how to do a technique correctly right from the beginning. Dan ranking in our system is promoted for a few different things. Ability to teach, promotion of the art, and learning new techniques or variations thereof. It is not awarded because you were doing a technique wrong for your black belt test and made it better for higher dans.

So esssentially you might know a few more things than me but I know more than you in other areas as well. All you have is a "title". So like I said drop the traditional highhorse. If anything I know more about reality fighting than you because I've never bothered attending schools that like you put it earlier only show techniques to commited students. It's easy to see that bs within a few weeks of training at such a school. That ancient mindset is ridiculous in todays environment. Do you force your students to clean your school as part of classes as well?

"Wax on! Wax off!"

By the way how many years did Jae train with Choi? Maybe I can create my own style and I'll be a "master" after the same amount of time. :D

[austinso]

Actually it's a thread on Combat Hapkido..

Ah...I see...combat hapkido is not hapkido?

Are you still training to x-block a knife attack as well?

Who do you really think understands reality fighting? Me advocating low kicks or those saying flying kicks and meditation are useful in real fights? Let's both be "real" here.

But flying hook kicks are? :bang:

All I've seen from dojangs/dojos/schools in general that boast lineage are schools afraid to evolve, too traditional to concentrate on the important thing: teaching students to survive an attack.

I see you are putting words in my mouth yet again...and putting words in your mouth too...

Really Fred...it would be nice if you could at least respond to what is posted, not what you think is posted. Similarly, it would be nice if you could remember what you actually wrote rather than what you think you wrote.

As far as "understanding reality fighting", I think you should get a grip on reality first, okay George?

1. Did I say that flying kicks and meditation are useful in the street? Nope. Do I believe that they have their uses? Yes. Do I believe that low kicks are not useful? Nope. Do I believe that they have their uses? Yep.

2. Did I say anything about dojangs that *boast* lineage? Nope. Do I believe that lineage and training are a good yardstick of quality? Yep.

As far as understanding "reality", I must admit, I am just a dumbass student still practicing when I can my non-combat HKD.

Now explain to me this...since I am kinda of slow...why is it that GM Pellegrini affiliated himself with In Sun Seo's Kido Hwe? He had a full organization with lots of people before he joined, yet for someone who seems to favour the notion of "it's just the effectiveness that matters", why did he do this? It seems to be a lack of confidence in his school and organization to believe that he had to be a part of this "traditionalist" HKD organization...

Is that supposed to be an intelligent response advocating more debate or more a childish response trying to incite? Hmmmm...

I'm just responding to the level that this argument is heading towards, Henry...

And I'm saying it's just training and effectiveness. If you have that who cares about lineage? Dig?

Obviously, Gm Pelligrini believed it was important...

But hey...who cares, right? You go your path, I go my path, and in the end all that matters is how well we do on the mat or on the street.

So all schools without "lineage" are mediocre huh? Wow. How openminded of you.

I didn't say I was open-minded Jack...

Austin

[American HKD]

I keep it real. Seriously which one of us has a mindset more like a 12 year old green belt? Me the openminded one rallying behind the evolution of Hapkido and other martial arts or Mr. MY style of Hapkido is better than everyone else's and there is no need for any variations or evolution?



I remember the threads with your comments on your limited time in some of those arts. But of course I see your biasedness. Comparing resumes I have as much experience in taking various martial arts as you. Which is kinda sad considering You have nearly 20 years on me. Some would say that is kind of a waste. All you really earned in those extra years is a political title. The techniques you learned from 1st dan to 6th dan are but a handful compared to what you could have learned from white to black in other styles. Think of all you could have learned if you crosstrained more.

But if you're happy then you're happy. :confused:




I'm glad you're happy with your path. But do you seriously think that "master" title means anything in the street or ring? As anyone whose been in the martial arts know after early dan's rising up is entirely political and those that require techniques are either just variations on what you've learned before or techniques from other styles.

Also if for some reason you somehow gained a better understanding of the mechanics and applications of a snakelock, centerlock or any other technique from 1st dan to 6th dan. Then I'm sorry to say you weren't trained right and really never should have gotten your black belt. We train our students how to do a technique correctly right from the beginning. Dan ranking in our system is promoted for a few different things. Ability to teach, promotion of the art, and learning new techniques or variations thereof. It is not awarded because you were doing a technique wrong for your black belt test and made it better for higher dans.

So esssentially you might know a few more things than me but I know more than you in other areas as well. All you have is a "title". So like I said drop the traditional highhorse. If anything I know more about reality fighting than you because I've never bothered attending schools that like you put it earlier only show techniques to commited students. It's easy to see that bs within a few weeks of training at such a school. That ancient mindset is ridiculous in todays environment. Do you force your students to clean your school as part of classes as well?

"Wax on! Wax off!"

By the way how many years did Jae train with Choi? Maybe I can create my own style and I'll be a "master" after the same amount of time. :D

Greetings

It's obvious whatever I say you will say the opposite so I don't really mind.

A Master means a certain level of a particular system or Art. To me regardless of the system it's a very respectable achievement.

There's an old saying "Jack of all trades Master of none", if it works for you that's great.

Tell me in all the systems you study are you learning from a qualified Instr. or Master?

If the answer is yes it proves my point 100%. You jacks of all trades need masters to learn from, if it wasn't for dedicated masters willing to pay thier dues and pass on systems you'd be learning Zip!

Or maybe I'm wrong and your learning to be "an expert" in all your different styles from a bunch of under qualified teachers?

You are so ridiculus and your agruements make no sense, you are so far in left field it's a laugh!

[MaxG]

.

Now explain to me this...since I am kinda of slow...why is it that GM Pellegrini affiliated himself with In Sun Seo's Kido Hwe? He had a full organization with lots of people before he joined, yet for someone who seems to favour the notion of "it's just the effectiveness that matters", why did he do this? It seems to be a lack of confidence in his school and organization to believe that he had to be a part of this "traditionalist" HKD organization...


If you think it's lack of confidence you really need a few screws tightened. He could have promoted himself to 10th Dan just like any other Joe Schmo wannabe. He affiliated himself with In Sun Seo because of respect for Korean martial arts.



But hey...who cares, right? You go your path, I go my path, and in the end all that matters is how well we do on the mat or on the street.

There you go! That's what I've been saying all along.



I didn't say I was open-minded Jack...

Austin

I'll let that one speak for itself...

Oh and just curious what is that with calling me by different names? Is that supposed to be funny or witty or something?

[MaxG]

Greetings
It's obvious whatever I say you will say the opposite so I don't really mind.

A Master means a certain level of a particular system or Art. To me regardless of the system it's a very respectable achievement.

It's a very respectable achievement. I never argued that but if you think it means something on the street you really need to wake up. And if you think it means that you know more about defending yourself than me than you just need an ego check.


There's an old saying "Jack of all trades Master of none", if it works for you that's great.

Tell me in all the systems you study are you learning from a qualified Instr. or Master?

If the answer is yes it proves my point 100%. You jacks of all trades need masters to learn from, if it wasn't for dedicated masters willing to pay thier dues and pass on systems you'd be learning Zip!

I have always trained with qualified instructors with open minds. Not all have been "masters". I have never trained with specialists that insist on learning only one style. As soon as I hear "this is the ultimate martial art" BS. I'm out the door. Which is why I would never train with an instructor like you who believes that you need to stick to a curriculum that is 40 years old for traditions sake or bashes other martial arts.

My current CH instructor holds high ranks in a variety of martial arts. And even though he holds theses rankings he still cross trains as well. He agrees with me that when it comes to defending yourself it wouldn't matter if he was 9th Dan or 1st Dan. All that matters is that you can defend yourself. It's that attitude that makes me stay with him not his rank.

My BJJ instructor is only 1st Dan but he is an amazing BJJ martial artist. In the BJJ system you can actually teach before Black Belt if you are good and your instructor endorses you.

Two opposites 1 high rank. 1 Low rank. What do they have in common? (which is why I train with them) They are good martial artists that know how to teach and know the value of all martial arts.

I can pretty much end this debate right now:

As usual you didn't answer me. How long did Jae train with Choi to suddenly become a master of a joint locking art?

And iirc he even had a school before he was 4th Dan.

Your own Grandmaster doesn't meet with your requirements you've stipulated.

Did you hear that? I think it was your argument just cracking and falling under hypocrisy.

[austinso]

If you think it's lack of confidence you really need a few screws tightened. He could have promoted himself to 10th Dan just like any other Joe Schmo wannabe. He affiliated himself with In Sun Seo because of respect for Korean martial arts.

Sure sure...

There you go! That's what I've been saying all along.

Holy crap...it is clear that you have to be spoonfed everything like a 2 year old:

We both agree that what matters in the end is how "effective" an art is on the street.

Good.

So, *how* do you know whether that dojang or that subgroup of HKD is effective? What is that gauge of success? Just because it is called "combat"? Just because it says "oh...we only teach you what works"? Just because it introduces a mixture of other arts? How does any of that tell you that what you learn in the dojang or the subgroup is going to be effective? Just because you do disarms with play guns and knives?

You go by history. You go by reputation. And then guess what? You have schools by students who follow the same work ethic and intensity. And guess freaking what? You have lineage and training.

HKD has grappling. HKD has takedowns and submissions. HKD has disarms. HKD has boxing. HKD has full contact sparring. HKD has weapons. You name it and HKD has it.

So please don't pass this BS that only combat HKD has "real" techniques, and is an evolution of HKD. It is only repeating the same growing pains that was done in HKD in Korea 50 years ago.

This notion that "traditional HKD" is stagnant and outdated is designed to pocket people like you who think that what they are doing is mighty advanced and "real".

Austin

P.S. before you start disparaging the skills of the likes of Ji Han Jae, perhaps you should volunteer to be a guinea pig for his "outdated" and "ineffective" techniques...walk the walk...

[American HKD]

Greetings

Dear Max

At this point I'm 99% sure I'm wasting my time but well see. :bang:

I've never once metioned who's better you or me, that's not what this conversation is about and there's no way to really gauge that short of a death match which I'm not into. You are obviouly a very insurcure guy you already brough up twice that you better than me, you also keep bringing up the lamest cr*p out of context over and over!

As far as Doju Ji, he has proven himself far beyond you, me and any Instr you ever trainned with.

In every generation there are people who excell in the MA Doju Ji happens to be one of the best in our time, Ed Parker, Bruce Lee, Hellio Gracie are other good example but don't come up to Ji Han Jae.

But I can tell you as fact Doji Ji trained, the Korean & US secret servive, vietnam era soldiers and many other you don't know about. He used HKD in real life and death curricumstances and has been the main person to spread Hapkido through the world through his lineage and students, even CH desemenated from Ji as Pellgrini started out with Myungs WHF and that Ji's lineage.

Doju Ji is an very rare person and tremendous Master and is surely in the very core of real Masters left in the world today, unfortately people like you don't know what thier missing and never will.

You're not a Martial Artist in any sense of the word, not in mind or sprit regardless of the physical techniques you have aquired.

You have no idea what a Martial Artist is, maybe you don't care to know that's you're choice at this point I feel sorry for you as one who trains in the MA has has no idea what it is.

[Thomas]

.

Ah...I see...combat hapkido is not hapkido?
I presume you have read this whole thread, but just in case, check out posts #51 and #53. "Combat Hapkido" is a system that is based on Traditional Hapkido but is NOT Traditional Hapkido (and has never been advertised as such. See www.ichf.com for details.)

Furthermore, this is a thread about "Combat Hapkido" and a place for people to ask questions about schools, curriculum, people, and so on that are involved in Hapkido. Some of your posts seem to imply that you have some sort of axe to grind with Combat Hapkido and GM Pellegrini (please correct me and accept my apologies if I am wrong). There are tons of other threads out there that are set up for the purpose of arguing whose Hapkido is "better" or more "pure" than others... please continue that line of discussion on one of those.

From your posts here, it would seem that you don't really know much about Combat Hapkido, so we would be pleased to answer any questions about the programs you have or offer you suggesstions of places where you can go to check out some classes and/or seminars. PM me if you want to keep it quiet.

Now explain to me this...since I am kinda of slow...why is it that GM Pellegrini affiliated himself with In Sun Seo's Kido Hwe? He had a full organization with lots of people before he joined, yet for someone who seems to favour the notion of "it's just the effectiveness that matters", why did he do this? It seems to be a lack of confidence in his school and organization to believe that he had to be a part of this "traditionalist" HKD organization...
The answer to that question is very easy. GM Pellegrini considers GM In Sun Seo his teacher. GM Pellegrini has been a member of the World Kido Federation (Kido Hwe as you mention) for a very long time... since before he founded the ICHF. When GM In Sun Seo left the World Kido Federation and set up his own Hanminjeok Hapkido Association, GM Pellegrini remained loyal to his instructor and has since been promted to 9th dan under GM In Sun Seo, another man whom I respect greatly for his contributions to the art and for his own abilities (if you've never had the luxury of attending his seminars, check him out). Beyond that, Combat Hapkido is a recognized kwan (Chon-Tu Kwan) within Korea and falls under the umbrella of GM In Sun Seo. That's why.

As for a "lack of confidence in his school and organization"... I can only look at how expansive Combat Hapkido has become and how much it has grown. Pretty impressive in my opinion.

Please keep in mind that GM Pellegrini is held in very high regard by many people here, especially myself. To be completely honest, if you really want to know anything about GM Pellegrini and his organization, call him. He is very accessible through the phone number on his website and will answer anything you ask him. Or, come to a seminar and see him in person. Perhaps you can follow your own advice and subsitute the name of "GM Pellegrini" for "GM Ji Han-jae".
P.S. before you start disparaging the skills of the likes of Ji Han Jae, perhaps you should volunteer to be a guinea pig for his "outdated" and "ineffective" techniques...walk the walk...

[American HKD]

Greetings

Thomas is right even though I'm traditional HKD, CH has estabilished itself as a sub form of HKD.

Some of my past posts have'nt been in favor of CH but it is a "Sub form of Hapkido".

The reason I say sub form just so you'll understand my veiw now is, CH has taken alot of material out of HKD and added in others arts.

What's left over is JP veiw of a simplified version in a sense, by that I don't mean what CH uses is bad technique but much of the skills that require more training has bee removed.

For example throw and falls, High kicking, some weapon, I also think it may have removed many of the Hapki principles with in tech from what I've been told, because doing the techniques from a "Ju level" (as in jujutsu) level is easier than the Hapki Style. It's more strenght oriented v.s. the Hapki methods (coordinated power) so CH style takes less time to master.

Whether or not that better or worse is another subject based on MA principles and schools of thought.

Thomas GM JP was affilated with Myungs WHF has believe held a 5th dan from Myung, what do you know about that?

[Thomas]

Thomas GM JP was affilated with Myungs WHF has believe held a 5th dan from Myung, what do you know about that?

Honestly, I don't know. I started with Combat Hapkido back in 1995 as my insructor was getting more and more into it. He loved the art and went to a lot of seminars. The material he brought back was awesome and we began incorporating it into our training, especially into the "self defence" side of our Taekwondo practice. Eventually my instructor got more into the program and began ranking. Upon my return from Korea, I decided to "charter up" and go for ICHF rank... at this point in my martial arts development, Combat Hapkido is the most suitable path for me.

GM Pellegrini likes to teach by example at his seminars and everything is hands on. There's discussion of background of techniques but GM P very rarely discusses lineage, prefering to model, show, experiment and work with the concepts that can be found within various sytems. I personally have never thought to ask much about his lineage because it "just never came up". In an interview I read recently he said "GM In Sun Seo is my teacher" (might have been the Tae Kwon Do Times Hall of Fame interview). For me, having GM In Sun Seo as my teacher would be an incredible thing! I know their relationship is very strong and their mutual respect very evident.

Somewhere down the road, I will try to ask and find out about the lineage, but it's not really a high priority. I have met the man many times as an instructor, as a grandmaster, as a conversation partner and I hold the highest regard for him and in my personal opinion is what a "grandmaster" should be.

[MaxG]

Greetings
Dear Max

At this point I'm 99% sure I'm wasting my time but well see. :bang:

I've never once metioned who's better you or me, that's not what this conversation is about and there's no way to really gauge that short of a death match which I'm not into. You are obviouly a very insurcure guy you already brough up twice that you better than me, you also keep bringing up the lamest cr*p out of context over and over!

I'm the insecure guy? This coming from someone who constantly makes posts about how his hapkido is better than anyone else's. Oh Stuart, sometimes I wonder if you need professional help.

You're right this isn't about you and me and if you look back I said you know things I don't and vice versa. Stop implying that I'm the one who is looking down on the other here.

I said it before and I'll say it again. What I'm attacking are techniques that don't belong in the modern world and conservative traditionalist mentality that is detrimental to students well being.

And if anything you're the one saying he's better than others. What you've said is that being a "master" somehow makes someone magically have better techniques than someone who is not. That for some magical reason that a person with a "master" title is a better instructor than someone who isn't. But not once have you proven this in this debate. All you've done is cling blindly to your hope that what you say is true.

To thine own self be true.

And like usual I see you didn't answer my questions and sidestepped it. I guess trying to get a straight answer out of you was just asking for too much.

Maybe if I list them it will be easier for you to answer.

1. How long did Ji Han Jae train with Choi learning the joint locking arts of aikijujitsu?

2. Was Ji Han Jae a "Master" when he opened up his own school?

You've said that people need to learn from "masters" with years of experience in the art, that becoming a "master" proves you know your stuff, that learning from a "master" is better. Come on Stuart that's a direct question. Not that hard.

Sometimes I kinda feel sorry for you Stuart. I'm pretty sure that you already know what I'm talking about when it comes to Ji Han Jae. You can't be that blind after so many years with him. But I can understand that he's pretty much all you have. If he's considered a fake than your whole training is suspect. All your students have a right to wonder if their "lineage" that you keep touting is as pure as they've been led to believe. You're kinda in a corner.


You're not a Martial Artist in any sense of the word, not in mind or sprit regardless of the physical techniques you have aquired.

You have no idea what a Martial Artist is, maybe you don't care to know that's you're choice at this point I feel sorry for you as one who trains in the MA has has no idea what it is.

Lol, and I'm sure you believe that your definition of martial artist is the only one. That your definition is better than others. Why does that sound familiar? :rolleyes:

My definition of martial artist is up to date. Not some definiton of a hundred years ago. Do you think that the term "martial artist" somehow makes you this mystic figure shrouded in secrecy? Someone with a higher spiritual state than normal people? Are you somehow closer to Nirvana because you study martial arts? Come down off that imaginary highhorse Stuart.

I feel sorry for your students who because of your conservative traditional mindset for some reason aren't taught techniques that could possibly save their lives until they "prove" their commitment to Trad HKD.

There are plenty of excellent instructors out there that don't have "lineage", that don't cling blindly to "tradition", that aren't "masters". Stop belittling their accomplishments and abilities. It might make you a better "martial artist".

[MaxG]

Thomas you're right. This thread should be just about Combat Hapkido and my debate with A HKD has gone a lot beyond that so I'm not going to argue here anymore since it's mostly about martial arts in general as opposed to Combat Hapkido

Just a word of advice to anyone interested in CH don't listen to people that base their entire viewpoint of CH on magazines and interviews.

Anyone needing more info on Combat Hapkido can PM me if they want.

[Thomas]

I think most of the arguments and debates have reached their saturation level, so maybe we can move on to other Combat Hapkido discussion.

Here's something:

Not too long ago, I was lucky to attend a Double Impact Combat Hapkido Seminar – GM Pellegrini and Master Julius Melegrito (ICHF's stick and knife expert) – East Greenbush/Rensalear New York State and was very impressed with Master Melegrito's tecahing style and skill with sticks. (see Journal entry #82.

I was very much taken with how easily the Filipino stick concepts and techniques fit into what we do and have applied some of the drills there toour open hand drills and added in other Hapkido techniques... it all meshes very well. Even moreso, I was very impressed with Master Melegrito!

Anyone here had a chance to work with him? Your opinions?

Does anyone have his Stick Combatives or Knife Combatives DVDs yet... I am curious how they are (and want the set)?
See www.ichf.com/videos/Videos.htm

[American HKD]

I'm the insecure guy? This coming from someone who constantly makes posts about how his hapkido is better than anyone else's. Oh Stuart, sometimes I wonder if you need professional help.

You're right this isn't about you and me and if you look back I said you know things I don't and vice versa. Stop implying that I'm the one who is looking down on the other here.

I said it before and I'll say it again. What I'm attacking are techniques that don't belong in the modern world and conservative traditionalist mentality that is detrimental to students well being.

And if anything you're the one saying he's better than others. What you've said is that being a "master" somehow makes someone magically have better techniques than someone who is not. That for some magical reason that a person with a "master" title is a better instructor than someone who isn't. But not once have you proven this in this debate. All you've done is cling blindly to your hope that what you say is true.

To thine own self be true.

And like usual I see you didn't answer my questions and sidestepped it. I guess trying to get a straight answer out of you was just asking for too much.

Maybe if I list them it will be easier for you to answer.

1. How long did Ji Han Jae train with Choi learning the joint locking arts of aikijujitsu?

2. Was Ji Han Jae a "Master" when he opened up his own school?

You've said that people need to learn from "masters" with years of experience in the art, that becoming a "master" proves you know your stuff, that learning from a "master" is better. Come on Stuart that's a direct question. Not that hard.

Sometimes I kinda feel sorry for you Stuart. I'm pretty sure that you already know what I'm talking about when it comes to Ji Han Jae. You can't be that blind after so many years with him. But I can understand that he's pretty much all you have. If he's considered a fake than your whole training is suspect. All your students have a right to wonder if their "lineage" that you keep touting is as pure as they've been led to believe. You're kinda in a corner.



Lol, and I'm sure you believe that your definition of martial artist is the only one. That your definition is better than others. Why does that sound familiar? :rolleyes:

My definition of martial artist is up to date. Not some definiton of a hundred years ago. Do you think that the term "martial artist" somehow makes you this mystic figure shrouded in secrecy? Someone with a higher spiritual state than normal people? Are you somehow closer to Nirvana because you study martial arts? Come down off that imaginary highhorse Stuart.

I feel sorry for your students who because of your conservative traditional mindset for some reason aren't taught techniques that could possibly save their lives until they "prove" their commitment to Trad HKD.

There are plenty of excellent instructors out there that don't have "lineage", that don't cling blindly to "tradition", that aren't "masters". Stop belittling their accomplishments and abilities. It might make you a better "martial artist".

Greetings

Max I liked this post for a change, though it's still out of context your with your assumtions and your attitude toward Trad. Masters your at least starting to sound rational!

I don't want to talk about Ji on this thread start another if you'd like. I agree to keep this about CH only.

What in you opinion is so superior about CH techniques compared to Trad HKD?

However I will say to be careful because as far as I'm concerned you have no Trad HKD training and may not be able to give a legit comparisons. Someone like Thomas who has studies both if vastly more qualified do speak about both sides of the coin.

Also don't single out one or two techs for your entire "entire case" it's not valid to me because HKD has well over 1000 techniques to choose from if you don't like one or the other, in fact Master Ji says he teaches many techniques to cover for many situations so on and so forth.

[American HKD]

I think most of the arguments and debates have reached their saturation level, so maybe we can move on to other Combat Hapkido discussion.

Here's something:

Not too long ago, I was lucky to attend a Double Impact Combat Hapkido Seminar – GM Pellegrini and Master Julius Melegrito (ICHF's stick and knife expert) – East Greenbush/Rensalear New York State and was very impressed with Master Melegrito's tecahing style and skill with sticks. (see Journal entry #82.

I was very much taken with how easily the Filipino stick concepts and techniques fit into what we do and have applied some of the drills there toour open hand drills and added in other Hapkido techniques... it all meshes very well. Even moreso, I was very impressed with Master Melegrito!

Anyone here had a chance to work with him? Your opinions?

Does anyone have his Stick Combatives or Knife Combatives DVDs yet... I am curious how they are (and want the set)?
See www.ichf.com/videos/Videos.htm

OK I AGREE.

Dear Thomas,

I spent about two years in Pekiti Tirsia and a short time in Ric Tucci's Academy doing the Inosanto/LaCasta Blend.

I reccommend Ric Tucci Kali Tapes for the real deal, it was organized very well and easy to learn. The Inosanto blend is great, it covers all ranges and seems more pratical

The Pekiti Tisia system is very complex IMO and takes many years to master if at all. The in close Knife work is the hardest I ever seen mainly because of the close range you have to be super human to avoid ever getting killed in real life trying to use it.

I have incorporated some Kali tech and principles in my personal system I don't teach the material cause I don't think I'm a qualified Instr. But I agree Kali can fit well into most other systems especially a soft style art.

[MaxG]

@ Stuart

I think it best for this forum if we don't interact anymore. We're complete opposites who'll never see eye to eye.

@ Thomas

I'm very much looking forward to the GM Pellegrini and Master Julius Melegrito seminar. Unfortunately the only West Coast seminars are in July and October so I'll have to wait awhile. I read the journal entry but couldn't discern was it more armed versus armed or unarmed versus armed? If only armed, was it always stick and knife? Or other combo's? I'm just curious on what to expect when he comes out my way.

[Dr.Syn]

GM Pellegrini likes to teach by example at his seminars and everything is hands on. There's discussion of background of techniques but GM P very rarely discusses lineage, prefering to model, show, experiment and work with the concepts that can be found within various sytems.


It is for those reasons that I too have embraced CH.I have been to hand full of self defense seminars geared for law enforcements sponsered by other so called Grandmasters,ALL of them were crap. This was and continues to be what works on the streets FOR ME..

Somewhere down the road, I will try to ask and find out about the lineage, but it's not really a high priority. I have met the man many times as an instructor, as a grandmaster, as a conversation partner and I hold the highest regard for him and in my personal opinion is what a "grandmaster" should be.

I couldn't agree more.

[Thomas]

@ Thomas

I'm very much looking forward to the GM Pellegrini and Master Julius Melegrito seminar. Unfortunately the only West Coast seminars are in July and October so I'll have to wait awhile. I read the journal entry but couldn't discern was it more armed versus armed or unarmed versus armed? If only armed, was it always stick and knife? Or other combo's? I'm just curious on what to expect when he comes out my way.
With the double impact format I went to, GM P taught a couple of lessons on various things, in this case some techniques and variations used in conjunction with a theme of balance disruption.

Master Melegrito's program was really neat and he built up bit by bit a knife drill and a stick drill, going one piece at a time, with parctice, added another piece and so on, culminating in some drills leading into various techniques. They started with stick vs. stick and knife vs. knife. We also took the drills and applied them with empty hands. I think for beginners, it was a nice intro to stick and knife work, for intermediate level, it was a nice tie in of weapon and empty hand, and for advanced people, it showed some new techniques and "moves". Master Melegrito is a really good instructor and blends seriousness with a bit of levity.

[JimH]

Hi
My name is Jim I am a Third degree in CH.
I met shihan a few weeks ago when he attended some of the CH classes and he was talking about some of the good exchanges here so I decided to take a look.

Some of the Background for GM P are that he was a Master level in tae kwon do.
He was a Master Level in Hapkido under Myung (his picture is also in Myungs book On Hapkido) and Wollmerhauser before he went for higher rank under In Sun Seo.
(GM P started a federation but did not make himself anything he advanced under qualified instructors)

The Reason He split from Traditional Hapkido was that no one outside of Koreans were getting Higher ranks.
Many Korean Masters held non Koreans Back, and the dues paid to their federations were met with "why don't you invite me to do seminars",they offered nothing for your money but the right to be under their banner.

The ICHF offers you the right to operate under them and or their ITA (tae kwon do federation)
You can get help from GMP and other school owners to get your school up and running.
You have him available for help as well as seminars.
School owners can make money selling the videos and DVDs.
You get a newsletter and support.
The dues are reasonable and you get something for your money,not pay some one to get nothing in return but lineage.
( I love how if the Korean masters argue and break away and form their own federations they are pioneers and those non koreans who break away are manipulating or selling out the art)

Everyone says CH is a blend or an additional art,wrong,it is Hapkido.
It is Hapkido that offers the High kicks and throws but shows you an alternative that may suit your body better or an alternative that works on the street.

The High kicks and throws are not emphasized, you learn them,but you do not have to do them,you are shown alternatives,you also do not get beat up doing repetitve high throws and falls.
(Funny that GM Lim says that original Hapkido did not have the high kicks that were brought in by the taekyung/ tae kwon do people)

The only thing actually added into the Combat Hapkido portion is the trapping,pass trap strikes from Vunaks JKD(of which GMP is a certified instructor)
This pass trap strike allows an easier parry or redirect to capture a hand or limb rather than trying to grab it from mid air.

Many Masters and Instructors in CH are masters in other systems and they find that this form of hapkido blends well with their styles.

Many Masters wanted Ground Grappling,More Cane and FMA,so GMP brought in the Best people BJJ Master Carlson Gracie Jr,Master Mark Shuey, and Master Melligrito.
GMP could have just stuck with what he already knew and offered, but he felt it was a benefit to the members to be able to have the Best Instructors available.
These arts are additions to the Hapkido section not part of the core,but then what is taught is up to the instructors who may have BJJ ,FMA or cane as part of their schools core.

What we do is the same thing done under and in all Hapkido schools,probably more than many schools that offer TKD and Hapkido mix.

Before you say I have no knowledge I also have trained in Traditional Hapkido under IK Jo kang,Chin Il Chang and Master Lee.

Many say what they are told Hapkido is or should be,Hapkido is Ju Jitsu,what Hapkido became was Ju jitsu with assorted kicks to make it a Korean rather than Japanese art.

There are many Books which show Jujitsu and how it was/is used for combat:
Look at the book "Get Tough by Fairbairn 1940s,it is Ju jitsu and is what we do in Hapkido.
Look at the Book "combato" by Underwood,it is Ju Jitsu and what we do in Hapkido.
Look at"Defendo",even the Wolfe version and you will see Ju Jitsu/Hapkido.
Look at the US Navy "V Five "Books and Videos,what you see is
Ju Jitsu/Hapkido.

These forms or systems were based on Ju jitsu but what you see is Ju Juitsu or what we do in Hapkido.
(even Wolfes Defendo shows this but Wolfe is a hapkioist so the differences between his and the traditional form of defendu are minimum because the core art is Ju Jitsu)

Look at Koga Sensei "practical aikido" you will see the same stuff we do in Hapkido because it's origin is from Ju jitsu.

Lets stop fighting over what is and is not true Hapkido because true Hapkido is true Ju Jitsu( ask GM Lim and other first generation students in the art prior to the TaeKyung influence),what became Hapkido is Ju Jitsu with Kicks the same as if the Japanese added Shotokan kicks to Ju jitsu.( tae kwon do is from the Japanese arts like Shotokan isn't it?)

.................................................. .................................................. ...

Thomas,
I was also at Master Melligritos and GMPs seminar.
Master Melligrito is a good instructor and structured the seminar well to go from the basics and moving up the ladder of intensity.
I purchased his knife combatives one and two and what he taught at the seminar follows from the DVD and progresses from that,if you want something easy to add to you training and teaching that video is the one to buy.
I also purchased the filipino stick training DVD,it is the formal instruction of Master Melligritos system,if you are interested in the art and training then this video is the one for that.

We must have met and or seen each other many times as I have attended almost every seminar in the North East over the last 7/8 years and I was at the first Kentucky Seminar.
I will be at the CT seminar in May,hope to meet you,I will be there with Master Medina.

[Shihan]

Jim H,

Good to see you checked this place out. How do you like it so far ? I took care of business at my other dojang, so I hope to join you and Master Medina soon.

[MaxG]

Welcome Jim,

I can tell you'll be a welcome addition to the CH camp here at MAP. I'm sure you can tell that alot of people have different view points on what Hapkido is and isn't and they can be very passionate. I can almost guarantee your post will have alot of people in an uproar with some of it's statements.

But welcome and here's to seeing you at a seminar one day. :cool:

[JimH]

Thanks for the welcomes.

Shihan glad you worked it out and we are very happy that you will be a regular in the group.

Max,I look forward to meeting you at the seminars,9we probably have already met)
I am sure some will be upset,but if they look at the books I mentioned ,(that were all published prior to 1945,before Choi began training anyone) they will see what we do and what we call Hapkido techniques(without the high kicks,lol)

It is funny that so much debate goes on over who said what and when they said it and who termed the name as if calling it something changed what was being taught.
( I have met masters and read of masters who were first generation students who claim they were present when the term Hapkido was made and almost all claim they came up with the term)

The Art is 60 years old and first generation students can not tell you anything with certainty,imagine the truths of arts that are hundreds to thousands of years old??,lol.

Choi's art was called many things by him:
Yawara
Yoo sool
Yoo Kwon Sool
Yoo Kwon sool hapki Dojang

In 1954 it was also called Yoo Kwon Sool by Bok to reflect the addition of kicks.
(Kicks were first trained because Choi said to Bok "you cannot fight that which you do not know" all kicks,at that time were below the waist,and since most of the attacks made by Bok to Choi were Judo moves,grabs, they are the prominent part of what is taught as Hapkido defenses against grabs)

In an interview with Bok,(the first student and said,only student for years),Hapki Dojang was used by them before Ji Han Jae.

Ji han Jae says he came up with the name.

Myung and Chin Il Chang both say they influenced and helped decide on the name.

Who is right ,who is wrong,who cares.

Call it Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu,call it Aiki Jujitsu,call it Jujitsu,call it Aikido,call it Hapkido,call it Yawara,call it Yoo Sool, call it Kuk Sool Won,call it Combat Hapkido it is all the same core art,so stop running each other down to be the Big Dog on the block.
.................................................. .....
Aiki Jujitsu as Hapkido was a Military art,a COMBAT art,not a sport art.
(the art is to evade,incapacitate and kill the enemy)

Thus GM P using the term Combat Hapkido is truer to the intent of the art than say Practical Hapkido (judo can be practical but it is a sport based art,and another off shoot of Jujitsu)
.................................................. ........
I have also seen the question as to why GM P became a student of In Sun Seo,well the Korean arts (as all oriental arts) are lineage based and paper trail based so to be legit and be recognized world wide you need a Master a connection, and the ICHF is a recognized Art or Kwon under the Hapkido Banner with GM P as the Head but In Sun Seo as His Current Master,Teacher,Instructor.

[Thomas]

JimH: Welcome aboard... it's real nice to have someone of your background and experience here. We most likely have met before and hopefully will again. I won't be at the CT seminar as we are going to testing at Master Noguera's!

Let me know if you are ever interested in coming North (on the Canadian border)... we'd love to have you.

[American HKD]

To Hapki,
It's funny you should mention Bruce Lee and JKD. That is an exxcellent analogy of what could happen. Of course, with JKD, evolution is exactly the outcome that Bruce Lee wanted. He not only welcomed it, He almost forced it. I guess that is the difference between an art and a system. An art form by it's nature should remain true to it's original roots. The purpose of art is to express and preserve a culture. The purpose of a system is to is to produce a particular outcome or result as quickly and effeciently as possible.
Some of us practice a Martial art, some of us practice a self defense system, and some of us practice both. Just as long as we keep practicing.

Greetings,

Good thoughts. I've been pretty hard pressed on this forum to move my thinking into the "real world" regarding MA. Old vs New school of thought.

What do you think HKD is an "Art" or "SD System" ?

I alway thought of it as an Art but a very complete Art. When I started there was no such thing as MMA types. Of course Bruce Lee's concepts were still new at that time and not well spread as they are today.

I agree with progress no matter what impression I give, I do question how the progress is made, meaning if it's a system who cares what's done as long as it works.

On the other hand if it's an Art I would perfer to see modern applications of existing techniques to bring the system into mordern day SD so to speak. In this case however I think it's only a mental adjustment more than re-creating an Art.

I hope that was clear. Thoughts?

[American HKD]

To Hapki,
It's funny you should mention Bruce Lee and JKD. That is an exxcellent analogy of what could happen. Of course, with JKD, evolution is exactly the outcome that Bruce Lee wanted. He not only welcomed it, He almost forced it. I guess that is the difference between an art and a system. An art form by it's nature should remain true to it's original roots. The purpose of art is to express and preserve a culture. The purpose of a system is to is to produce a particular outcome or result as quickly and effeciently as possible.
Some of us practice a Martial art, some of us practice a self defense system, and some of us practice both. Just as long as we keep practicing.

Mistaken post Sorry

[JimH]

Hi Stuart,
My definition of an art is something that takes time ,effort and the want or desire of perfection.

Hapkido fills this need if the practioner so desires.

Since most of Hapkido involves fine motor skills and intricate movements,as compared to other arts,that fact alone makes perfecting the skills an art.

Hapkido also provides self defense in that the movements and techniques are not designed for sport or entertainment ,they are for combat.

Hapkido can be taught from the outset as SD ,in that we can muscle a technique, over letting the technique work for us using minimum power,and we have the gross motor skills of hand strikes and kicks.

All Martial arts began as Self Defense and Combat arts or the Way of the military or Way of War/combat,over the years I guess people did not want the affiliation with combat or killing ,since it required time they termed it an art form.

When I began in 1970 there was no Martial arts section of the Phone Book,listings were under self defense.

People never said "what art do you study" they said "What style of Self defense" or just palin "what style do you study".

As far as being complete,I believe Hapkido is a complete art/system as we learn to fight in the various ranges,kicking,punching,striking to take downs,falls and throws.

Grappling is not new to Hapkido,it is after all stand up fighting with our backs to the wall and against gravity,strikes,grabs and pain compliance all apply,ground grappling was a part of jujitsu and judo which were what Bok-Sup Suh wanted Choi to teach him to defend against.

To me the tools are there for Hapkido to be what ever we want it to be,Art,system,self defense,and it fills all the needs of a complete art if we take it and train it that way.

[Thomas]

Greetings,

Good thoughts. I've been pretty hard pressed on this forum to move my thinking into the "real world" regarding MA. Old vs New school of thought.

What do you think HKD is an "Art" or "SD System" ?

I think it covers both. I think that the process of learning and training in the self defence skills will lead to the development of the practitioner as an "artist". The philosphy cannot stand alone without the physical expression and without the philosphy aspect, the physical is merely "fighting skills, not a (life) art".


On the other hand if it's an Art I would perfer to see modern applications of existing techniques to bring the system into mordern day SD so to speak. In this case however I think it's only a mental adjustment more than re-creating an Art.

On this, I completely agree and I personally see this as the underlying philosphy of Combat Hapkido: taking the root art and changing the expression of it, not the concepts, to fit the purposes of the practitioner in the modern world.

I took a look at your webiste, excellent by the way, and noticed that you also teach a grappling style (Gaijin Ryu Jiu-jitsu?) and noticed that in the March 2004 Taekwondo Times that you "include Gaijin Ryu Jiu Jitsu techniques to his Hapkido curriculum." (http://www.americanhapkidostudios.com/mainframe.htm). Although some people may say "why add these techniques - Hapkido is complete without it?", I imagine that the techniques would fit nicely into the concepts of Hapkido without compromising the integrity of the (Hapkdio) art. Sounds great!

[American HKD]

I think it covers both. I think that the process of learning and training in the self defence skills will lead to the development of the practitioner as an "artist". The philosphy cannot stand alone without the physical expression and without the philosphy aspect, the physical is merely "fighting skills, not a (life) art".



On this, I completely agree and I personally see this as the underlying philosphy of Combat Hapkido: taking the root art and changing the expression of it, not the concepts, to fit the purposes of the practitioner in the modern world.

I took a look at your webiste, excellent by the way, and noticed that you also teach a grappling style (Gaijin Ryu Jiu-jitsu?) and noticed that in the March 2004 Taekwondo Times that you "include Gaijin Ryu Jiu Jitsu techniques to his Hapkido curriculum." (http://www.americanhapkidostudios.com/mainframe.htm). Although some people may say "why add these techniques - Hapkido is complete without it?", I imagine that the techniques would fit nicely into the concepts of Hapkido without compromising the integrity of the (Hapkdio) art. Sounds great!


Greetings

I'm sounding more like a CH guy every day huh?

No I really don't teach Gaijin Ryu with Hapkido and mix the two. I have permision from the head of the Ryu to do it but I don't.

However I do teach on a limited basis some "adjusted ground skills" that doesn't change Hapkido to a BJJ style.

It's hard to describe but mainly it's a different way of seeing HKD and how to use it more effectively on the ground. The funny thing is all most all of the BJJ types locks are in HKD stand up already all you have to do us use them on the ground? Easier said then done but not all that hard.

The thing is it's still HKD in a sport eviornment a BJJ BB would kill me.

In a real situation things are not so simple anymore.

[Thomas]

It's hard to describe but mainly it's a different way of seeing HKD and how to use it more effectively on the ground. The funny thing is all most all of the BJJ types locks are in HKD stand up already all you have to do us use them on the ground? Easier said then done but not all that hard.

Nice point... for me learning the ground fighting system in CH was the same... adpating the Hapkido concepts to a different entry and angles, and then adding other concepts (like the "guard"). For me, exploring other arts is one way that I get back in touch more with my core arts of Hapkido and Taekwondo. Recently, we've been working softer handwork and techniques... which has encouraged me to play around with the Hankido technqiues again... same concepts, but different entries! Keeps me fresh.

In a real situation things are not so simple anymore.
Sad, but true

[American HKD]

Nice point... for me learning the ground fighting system in CH was the same... adpating the Hapkido concepts to a different entry and angles, and then adding other concepts (like the "guard"). For me, exploring other arts is one way that I get back in touch more with my core arts of Hapkido and Taekwondo. Recently, we've been working softer handwork and techniques... which has encouraged me to play around with the Hankido technqiues again... same concepts, but different entries! Keeps me fresh.


Sad, but true

You got it 100% that's the way I see things and still call it plain Hapkido just apply same holds/moves/techs to new senarios.

We already have most of the moves so why re-invent the wheel. I've said all along its the Instr. not thinking not the the Art being out of date, even the x blocks and jump kicks are viable when used right.

The Gaurd is new to HKD but even as a kid wrestling people would wind up in the gaurd is pretty natural position. Side, half, back mount not new, north/south is not something I did in HKD.

I don't think you need to be on the level of a BJJ BB for the street but basic working knowledge is important.

[Shihan]

Gentlemen,


Speaking of grappling...does it occur more in a fight, or in a SD situation? I agree that grappling should be included in our curriculum, not that a person doesn't have to achieve BB status but should be competent in that area. But should we practice grappling for fighting, SD or both? I would think that grappling happens more with a fight than SD. Thoughts ?

[Thomas]

Gentlemen,


Speaking of grappling...does it occur more in a fight, or in a SD situation? I agree that grappling should be included in our curriculum, not that a person doesn't have to achieve BB status but should be competent in that area. But should we practice grappling for fighting, SD or both? I would think that grappling happens more with a fight than SD. Thoughts ?
Here's something I wrote earlier on our school's take on ground survival and the teaching thereof (keep in mind that we can only teach so much at a time, so this is how we space out the training):

I know there is a difference between “grappling” and “ground survival” and I would actually characterize our program as “ground survival”… our main goal is to prevent going down if possible, reduce damage if we do go down, get back to our feet and escape, and to use techniques to finish the fight on the ground if we can’t get back to our feet and disengage. Our main goal is to protect ourselves and get out of there as soon as possible.

(Combat Hapkido ranks: white, yellow, green, purple, blue, brown, red, red/black, black/white, black)
In Combat Hapkido, we start students out at yellow belt with basic breakfalls… to help prepare students for the inevitable fall to the ground… whether it’s accidental and solo, or intentional with an opponent. Students also begin to learn strikes (esp. kicks) to use from the breakfall position… mainly to keep an opponent from attacking them on the ground.

At yellow belt or so, we add the various leg traps and takedowns from the ground to take a standing opponent down while we are on the ground. We teach some follow up strikes and a few submissions. However, at these levels (and actually all throughout our system’s philosophy), our main intent is to get back to our feet to strike or get away… not to stay and play on the ground if we can avoid it.

Around green, yellow, and purple, we work defences against takedowns… especially from single and double leg and practice using our underhook/sidestepping, posting, evasion, sprawling, and occasionally striking (especially to feed into a guillotine)

At green, purple and blue belt or so, we work the scenarios for if we end up on the ground. We practice the guard and the mount and work some submissions from both top and bottom, from the guard, side guard, and the mount. We work extractions and trying to get back to our feet, but we also work transitioning into submissions or striking… as the situation presents itself.

From Red belt and up we continue building on the ground survival techniques and begin incorporating the option of going to the ground in our advanced sparring classes (“no rules- good control”). For the 1st dan test, we evaluate all of the techniques listed here and do a bit of ground work like escaping the guard, escaping someone who is mounting you, and etc.

Keep in mind that even within the “basic core” Combat Hapkido course, the ground survival program is relatively basic and designed to keep you safe until you can get back to your feet and get out of there. It is also designed to give you a “leg-up” on techniques to protect you if you are taken to the ground and can’t get up quickly. However, there is enough material, resources, and seminars available for students who want to do much more in terms of adding a bigger ground game to their core system. All in all, the basic concepts are the same…. just applied to a different entry and situation.

[American HKD]

Gentlemen,


Speaking of grappling...does it occur more in a fight, or in a SD situation? I agree that grappling should be included in our curriculum, not that a person doesn't have to achieve BB status but should be competent in that area. But should we practice grappling for fighting, SD or both? I would think that grappling happens more with a fight than SD. Thoughts ?

Greetings,

HKD has "ground fighting" I have not seen many schools teach it the way I do they mostly stick to the standard HKD techniques. However it's not what you would consider BJJ style grappling at all though it has some related moves.

I teach it in a more dymanic way that closer simulates a real fight where people may fall or someone get taken down etc. It's consists of ground kicking, strikes, locks, gouges, etc.

I don't know if it's necessary to actually know BJJ to win in a ground fight, it surely can't hurt but there are other methods as well.

[JimH]

How much ground grappling do we need to survive a take down on the street or in real self defense?:

We must first think about who we are going to encounter on the street.

Most likely we will not be encountering a BJJ guy or a MMA guy or a UFC guy,we will encounter someone who probably has little to no training or experience in any thing except intimidation.

If the attacker wants money or items from you he will not be interested in going to the ground with you anyway,he wants what he wants and to get out of there.

Our goal needs to be in first preventing a take down and then if we end up on the ground by some means our need is to get back to our feet as quickly as possible.

Most attackers if they gain the mount will not be there long if you know how to grab them,buck them and smash their heads into the ground,or just buck them off and regain a standing position.

Most street attacks will not find attackers moving on concrete sliding to side mounts and cross mounts,most,(who end up on the ground) want to get the upper hand by sitting on your chest pounding your face.

Many say "well the majority of fights end up on the ground",this is partially true,in that in most fights someONE ends up on the ground,but it is not true that the majority fights end up with both people on the ground fighting,that is a small percent.

The number of people who actually train in any art is said to be around 3 percent,the number of those who work ground grappling specific are an even smaller percent of that 3 percent of populace,(again,who are we training to fight?).

Train in Ground work but do not go crazy with it ,unless that is a field you like or a form of martial combat/fighting you like or want to compete in.

[American HKD]

How much ground grappling do we need to survive a take down on the street or in real self defense?:

We must first think about who we are going to encounter on the street.

Most likely we will not be encountering a BJJ guy or a MMA guy or a UFC guy,we will encounter someone who probably has little to no training or experience in any thing except intimidation.

If the attacker wants money or items from you he will not be interested in going to the ground with you anyway,he wants what he wants and to get out of there.

Our goal needs to be in first preventing a take down and then if we end up on the ground by some means our need is to get back to our feet as quickly as possible.

Most attackers if they gain the mount will not be there long if you know how to grab them,buck them and smash their heads into the ground,or just buck them off and regain a standing position.

Most street attacks will not find attackers moving on concrete sliding to side mounts and cross mounts,most,(who end up on the ground) want to get the upper hand by sitting on your chest pounding your face.

Many say "well the majority of fights end up on the ground",this is partially true,in that in most fights someONE ends up on the ground,but it is not true that the majority fights end up with both people on the ground fighting,that is a small percent.

The number of people who actually train in any art is said to be around 3 percent,the number of those who work ground grappling specific are an even smaller percent of that 3 percent of populace,(again,who are we training to fight?).

Train in Ground work but do not go crazy with it ,unless that is a field you like or a form of martial combat/fighting you like or want to compete in.

You sound like me, but you may be in for ride some will very much disagree.

[Shihan]

Jim H and AmerHKD,

I tend to agree with you both. I think that fights may/will end up on the ground, but self defense scenarios will be different because the person will want to "hit and run", so to speak.

[American HKD]

Jim H and AmerHKD,

I tend to agree with you both. I think that fights may/will end up on the ground, but self defense scenarios will be different because the person will want to "hit and run", so to speak.

Greetings,

That's my veiw, what will be the tone of the average ground fight??? A tiny percentage will ever be a skilled BJJ person or a good wrestler, maybe someone with some high school wrestling ability, a football type tackle, and the like.

I don't think you need high level BJJ skills to protect yourself from these type attacks, again I'll say HKD has more than enough core ground skills to deal with 99.8% of the situations.

I also believe most good MA will be able to withstand and counter most of the likely unskilled attemps to take you down, however you need good footwork, etc.

BJJ has brought the ground grappling to a high level but I see most of that only needed in sport competetions, the self defense aspect of BJJ is small and hardly taught. I think blue belt level in BJJ or so is more than you'll ever need for the street or combat purposes. No dis-respect to any BJJ players.

[Thomas]

There has always been (and always will be) a lot of controversy about Combat Hapkido and GM P.

Something that I learned and have applied throughout my years in the martial arts is this:
"Don't judge an instructor on face value alone. Look at that instructor's students and see how they refelct the art and the teachings of the instructor." This is something that guided me as a student and now guides me as an instructor. Students reflect the instructor.

In GM P's case, a quick look around MAP at people like Masterbob, mixmastersenior, MaxG, JimH, HapkidoinP, and lots of other Combat Hapkido people here and you will get a good idea what kind of instructor GM P is... (and if you are in the NorthEast, take a look at people like Masters Frank Huff, Frank Noguera, and Robert Gray to see in real life who these people are and why they inspire students like myself to be a better martial artist and a better person in general.)

I think you will find that most Combat Hapkido people, especially the senior masters, tend to be open minded, tolerant, polite, and willing to share and teach with anyone.

Detractors of GM P and Combat Hapkido should take a look in the mirror and see how they (and their students) present themselves to the public and ask themselves "Am I doing honor to my instructor?" I know that the Combat Hapkido people I know sure are.

[Hapkidoin P]

Hey guys,

Since Thomas included me in that list of CHKD practitioners (no offence taken)..I would just like to say *I* do not practice CHKD..I belong to the Hanminjok Hapkido Association and hold Dahn rank through said Org. I have worked out with some CHKD guys at seminars and found most,if not all,to be fine,upstanding practitioners.

If forced to assign myself a label I would say I practice Kuk Sool Hapkido. Yes,there really is such a thing. :D <End of personal stuff >

I think the most telling of attributes is given as Thomas described...students reflect the Teacher,which reflect their Teachers,which reflect their GM's "personality"...though it's not always the case.

I have worked out with practitioners of most branches of Hapkido,and I respect everyone's veiwpoint and try to not take things personally. I think we would all do well to have this outlook.

We can devote 131 responses for political BS,but only 4 for Hapkido philosophy...for shame. Maybe this is the Hapkido philosophy and legacy..."Only *my* GM is a legitamate,authentic,top-dog Hapkidoin and everyone else is wrong or mis-guided." Bah. :bang:

Write with respect,for the world is watching. Pil Sung.

[Thomas]

Excellent post and good points.

I wrote the names off the top of my head and left some people out and added some in. I guess I added you in because your name popped into my mind and it seemed to fit. :)

*heads off to check out this philosphy thread...

[Shihan]

In GM P's case, a quick look around MAP at people like Masterbob, mixmastersenior, MaxG, JimH, HapkidoinP, and lots of other Combat Hapkido people here and you will get a good idea what kind of instructor GM P is... (and if you are in the NorthEast, take a look at people like Masters Frank Huff, Frank Noguera, and Robert Gray to see in real life who these people are and why they inspire students like myself to be a better martial artist and a better person in general.)

I think you will find that most Combat Hapkido people, especially the senior masters, tend to be open minded, tolerant, polite, and willing to share and teach with anyone.

In my humble opinion, you left out Master Al Medina, Thomas ( I know this wasn't done on purpose). You might not personally know him, but in my short time training with him, I have come to respect and admire him as an Instructor and person. Everything that you said about the above Masters and Instructors also apply to him. And in my years of training, I don't know too many masters that would let themselves be the uke because of a shortage of partners. I can only hope to be as good as Master Medina and Kyosanim Jim H in the future.

[JimH]

Shihan,
Your kind words are much appreciated my friend.
On Behalf of Master Medina and Myself,
Thank You

Thomas ,
Thank You also for including my name on your list.
Your list not only names some Great instructors,who produce Great students,but they are also Nice people and Great Gentlemen in and out of the Dojang.

[Dr.Syn]

There has always been (and always will be) a lot of controversy about Combat Hapkido and GM P.

Usually by those who REFUSE to accept the fact that there might be something out there that they don't know anything about..


I think you will find that most Combat Hapkido people, especially the senior masters, tend to be open minded, tolerant, polite, and willing to share and teach with anyone.

100% correct..As a police officer I've had the chance to attend multiple self defense seminars at the expense of my department held by so called Masters and Master instructors..I found 99% of them arrogant and insulting..Know-it-alls that insulted EVERY discipline of the MA..

I've had the privledge of attending numerous CH seminars since I discovered them 2 years..I've trained with 4, 5 and 6 Dans who were not so full of themselves that they couldn't take the time to go over a technique with me without making snide comments...Well there's my 2 cents..

[Thomas]

In my humble opinion, you left out Master Al Medina, Thomas ( I know this wasn't done on purpose). You might not personally know him, but in my short time training with him, I have come to respect and admire him as an Instructor and person. Everything that you said about the above Masters and Instructors also apply to him. And in my years of training, I don't know too many masters that would let themselves be the uke because of a shortage of partners. I can only hope to be as good as Master Medina and Kyosanim Jim H in the future.
I left a lot of people out without meaning to. I have met Master Medina at a couple of seminars and have been helped out by him (and demonstrated on by him!)... again, another great Combat Hapkido who goes to seminars and not only studies hard there but makes the time to get around and help everyone he can.


I hope that people take the moment here and mention those Combat Hapkido students and instructors that have helped you out and deserve a "This is a great person" little speech! Post away!

Recently I took my 3rd dan test with a bunch of guys I had seen at seminars and who were taking a maintenance test (all black belts 1st - 4th dans). It was neat to see these guys, intructors in their own right, going around and getting to know everyone and asking questions and sharing ideas. There's no secrecy in Combat Hapkido. It doesn't matter your rank, everyone gets the same respect.

[JimH]

"There's no secrecy in Combat Hapkido. It doesn't matter your rank, everyone gets the same respect."

This statement is not only true at seminars,where no one wears rank,but it also carries over to many of the Dojang classes.

At our school a uniform and rank are worn,but all students work on techniques whether beginner or advanced at the same time.
(we do not break down to belt levels)

A Higher rank does not mean we have perfected a technique and beginners see how the techniques evolve so when they return to techniques in their belt level they appreciate it more.

A beginner could have their first day of class and be shown basic moves all the way to Pistol and knife disarms.
(they may not look pretty but exposure is the key)

They do not spend their 3 years or more just learning one belt level at a time and moving on, they work a large range of the Full curriculum every class over the 3 years or more.
(this produces a student who has not just worked on their belt level for 3-6 months prior to Black belt promotion,it produces a student who has done this material over 3 years or more)

I found this to be a Great way to learn and advance ,and the new student goes home with something usable from day one.

[Thomas]

One of our students is a TKD black belt who has learned a bunch of Combat Hapkdio and will soon take the plunge and begin ranking in CH. Working on her techniques at home her husband was more than happy to observe forms, help her with one-steps, and etc... but when it came to self defence, he was a bit more reluctant... "You know, that hapkido stuff hurts!" he said. I found that quote a bit funny at first.

Watching new students start Combat Hapkido, you do get lots of "new" pains and the locks really do hurt. Even starting with basic defences/breakaways from wrist grabs can leave a bit of pain to take home.

How do you deal with this (we give the old "You'll get used to it" advice!)?

[American HKD]

"There's no secrecy in Combat Hapkido. It doesn't matter your rank, everyone gets the same respect."

This statement is not only true at seminars,where no one wears rank,but it also carries over to many of the Dojang classes.

At our school a uniform and rank are worn,but all students work on techniques whether beginner or advanced at the same time.
(we do not break down to belt levels)

A Higher rank does not mean we have perfected a technique and beginners see how the techniques evolve so when they return to techniques in their belt level they appreciate it more.

A beginner could have their first day of class and be shown basic moves all the way to Pistol and knife disarms.
(they may not look pretty but exposure is the key)

They do not spend their 3 years or more just learning one belt level at a time and moving on, they work a large range of the Full curriculum every class over the 3 years or more.
(this produces a student who has not just worked on their belt level for 3-6 months prior to Black belt promotion,it produces a student who has done this material over 3 years or more)

I found this to be a Great way to learn and advance ,and the new student goes home with something usable from day one.

How do they all work on the same techniques?

Arn't higher level tech dependant on mastery of lower level?

[JimH]

Mastery and perfection to make a technique work with skill over strength is a result of time spent working the basics,but to perform any move,including an advanced move to get the basics of the move is not reliant on mastery.

So a beginer will do some skills in his/her level and they will have opportunity to work at levels above their skills all the way to Black Belt techniques,including cane,dan bong and pistol and knife defenses.

Any moves that end with throws or falls,if above the students level are halted at the entry techniques,grabs and locks until the student gets the idea of falls, rolls and throws.

[mixmastersenior]

Beginning students are taught a couple of basic kicks, 3 or 4 breakaways from wrist grabs, and a basic version of an outside wrist lock (kote Geishi or sonmnok Kukki). At the next level, they are taught a couple more breakaways, and one or two variations of the outside wrist lock. All from static attacks, mainly wrist grabs. As they progress, they learn more of the foundation techniques, arm bar, inside wrist lock (nikyo), 4 directional throw.
At about blue level the attacks move from static to dynamic (punches). Hopefully by this time, they have gotten a grasp of the mechanics of the techniques. This is a shotgun view of how the ICHF cirriculum is set up. As each pupil progresses, they expand on the uses of the techniques they have learned and new techniques are added. Foundation principles of balance control, Ki energy, the water and circle principles are discussed and fostered from day one. Certain techniques are taught in variations throughout the cirriculum in hopes that the student will no longer see them as just techniques, but rather begin to grasp the underlying concepts.

[American HKD]

Beginning students are taught a couple of basic kicks, 3 or 4 breakaways from wrist grabs, and a basic version of an outside wrist lock (kote Geishi or sonmnok Kukki). At the next level, they are taught a couple more breakaways, and one or two variations of the outside wrist lock. All from static attacks, mainly wrist grabs. As they progress, they learn more of the foundation techniques, arm bar, inside wrist lock (nikyo), 4 directional throw.
At about blue level the attacks move from static to dynamic (punches). Hopefully by this time, they have gotten a grasp of the mechanics of the techniques. This is a shotgun view of how the ICHF cirriculum is set up. As each pupil progresses, they expand on the uses of the techniques they have learned and new techniques are added. Foundation principles of balance control, Ki energy, the water and circle principles are discussed and fostered from day one. Certain techniques are taught in variations throughout the cirriculum in hopes that the student will no longer see them as just techniques, but rather begin to grasp the underlying concepts.

Greetings

In essense that's the same as trad. HKD. teaches

JimH maybe meant the same thing but I couldn't tell for sure?

[JimH]

For ranking in our school yes,there are a set of techniques and situations that must be accomplished to build upon as they progress.

As for each class,EVERYONE does everything,from the lowest belt to the highest.

We do not seperate into ranks and do just that rank material.

All members get to work,see and try all the various techniques done in all the various levels.

The first day,the new student may learn pass trap strike to a grab.Then onto breakaways from a grab.Then onto single lapel grabs,chokes or what ever all the way to gun and knife disarms or cane.

It is all shown to them and they work within their comfort zone,slowly to a faster slow to quick.

By the time the student goes for Black belt they have not just worked their level for 3-4 months, they have worked it for 3 years or more.

Exposure to the advanced stuff also makes it easier to see the way simpler techniques work,because they see how it will develop and what it leads to.

A beginner need not go to throws on day one to get the hang of doing a response to a lapel grab or a choke from the rear.

To do the techniques well with skill over power maybe lacking but it will come and they have exposure to a variety of skill level techniques.

Beginers also always work with advanced students,they are nutured and talked to and shown their way through techniques,they are guided not left with other newbies to flounder always looking or waiting for guidance.

Maybe I am fortunate that the majority who come to our school have had a background in some other art and are not unwilling to try advanced stuff.
(even the few with no experience like going home at the end of the day with a variety of usable techniques from various levels)

[American HKD]

For ranking in our school yes,there are a set of techniques and situations that must be accomplished to build upon as they progress.

As for each class,EVERYONE does everything,from the lowest belt to the highest.

We do not seperate into ranks and do just that rank material.

All members get to work,see and try all the various techniques done in all the various levels.

The first day,the new student may learn pass trap strike to a grab.Then onto breakaways from a grab.Then onto single lapel grabs,chokes or what ever all the way to gun and knife disarms or cane.

It is all shown to them and they work within their comfort zone,slowly to a faster slow to quick.

By the time the student goes for Black belt they have not just worked their level for 3-4 months, they have worked it for 3 years or more.

Exposure to the advanced stuff also makes it easier to see the way simpler techniques work,because they see how it will develop and what it leads to.

A beginner need not go to throws on day one to get the hang of doing a response to a lapel grab or a choke from the rear.

To do the techniques well with skill over power maybe lacking but it will come and they have exposure to a variety of skill level techniques.

Beginers also always work with advanced students,they are nutured and talked to and shown their way through techniques,they are guided not left with other newbies to flounder always looking or waiting for guidance.

Maybe I am fortunate that the majority who come to our school have had a background in some other art and are not unwilling to try advanced stuff.
(even the few with no experience like going home at the end of the day with a variety of usable techniques from various levels)

Greetings

Is that the way your school does it or is that typical in all of CH?

I do stick to the belt requirements for each student but we build on the previous stuff from belt to belt.

I also like each student to have a good working knowledge of basic kicks, strikes, movements, falls, throw and locks, before I take them to the next level.

This method may be a little slower up front but in the long run they have a real solid foundation that will take them easily to the higher levels.

I've all to often see people with techs. that are shallow or weak so everything suffers, my style is solid and deep and it shows in my students.

[JimH]

What I described is the way our school runs its training.

Many CH schools run by the tape and rank system set up by the federation.

They progress and learn as outlined and specified on the videos.

Some schools use CH as additional training to their core art(s),so each school may operate differently and employ their CH training differently than specified on the videos.

Some TKD schools mix the CH into their TKD as the self defense portions of their training.

There are any number of ways CH is implemented out there.

[Shihan]

For ranking in our school yes,there are a set of techniques and situations that must be accomplished to build upon as they progress.

As for each class,EVERYONE does everything,from the lowest belt to the highest.

We do not seperate into ranks and do just that rank material.

All members get to work,see and try all the various techniques done in all the various levels.

The first day,the new student may learn pass trap strike to a grab.Then onto breakaways from a grab.Then onto single lapel grabs,chokes or what ever all the way to gun and knife disarms or cane.

It is all shown to them and they work within their comfort zone,slowly to a faster slow to quick.

By the time the student goes for Black belt they have not just worked their level for 3-4 months, they have worked it for 3 years or more.

Exposure to the advanced stuff also makes it easier to see the way simpler techniques work,because they see how it will develop and what it leads to.

A beginner need not go to throws on day one to get the hang of doing a response to a lapel grab or a choke from the rear.

To do the techniques well with skill over power maybe lacking but it will come and they have exposure to a variety of skill level techniques.

Beginers also always work with advanced students,they are nutured and talked to and shown their way through techniques,they are guided not left with other newbies to flounder always looking or waiting for guidance.

Maybe I am fortunate that the majority who come to our school have had a background in some other art and are not unwilling to try advanced stuff.
(even the few with no experience like going home at the end of the day with a variety of usable techniques from various levels)

I must agree with you Jim. I enjoy the way we conduct classes. I think it's important that a person walk away with the feeling that he or she can defend themselves without waiting to become a certain rank. I understand AmerHKD thoughts on a person learning and becoming proficient in the basics, but self defense techiques are meant to learned quickly in a short amount of time. Let's look at Marines and Army soldiers for example. They don't spend years learning to fight during basic training. It lasts anywhere from 12 to 18 weeks. Even more advance training after boot camp doesn't take years. To become proficient in westing boxing only take 6 to 12 months. I think we should take our ques from these ways os training.

[Shihan]

One of our students is a TKD black belt who has learned a bunch of Combat Hapkdio and will soon take the plunge and begin ranking in CH. Working on her techniques at home her husband was more than happy to observe forms, help her with one-steps, and etc... but when it came to self defence, he was a bit more reluctant... "You know, that hapkido stuff hurts!" he said. I found that quote a bit funny at first.

Watching new students start Combat Hapkido, you do get lots of "new" pains and the locks really do hurt. Even starting with basic defences/breakaways from wrist grabs can leave a bit of pain to take home.

How do you deal with this (we give the old "You'll get used to it" advice!)?
LOL I guess so. It was told to me when I first started training. And it still hurts when done correctly. Let them do wrist and arm warm-ups before and after class to lessen the pain.

[JimH]

Shihan,that is a very good and important point about being able to learn quickly.

Perfection takes time,learning to use the technique over muscle takes time,but learning the movements and applying them even if grossly takes little time and no real lead up or preparation.

Fairbairn and Sykes taught the Commandos of WWII a form of self defense,which is very to hapkido in that it was primarily jujitsu based,they had a limited time to show the men locks moves and throws and they had limited time to do it.

It is surprising but the Commandos and OSS officers said that they found the moves easy to learn,easy to use,easy to remember.
(in fact the moves were so easy to remember that at a reunion 50 years later men were still able to perform and use the techniques effectively)

[American HKD]

I must agree with you Jim. I enjoy the way we conduct classes. I think it's important that a person walk away with the feeling that he or she can defend themselves without waiting to become a certain rank. I understand AmerHKD thoughts on a person learning and becoming proficient in the basics, but self defense techiques are meant to learned quickly in a short amount of time. Let's look at Marines and Army soldiers for example. They don't spend years learning to fight during basic training. It lasts anywhere from 12 to 18 weeks. Even more advance training after boot camp doesn't take years. To become proficient in westing boxing only take 6 to 12 months. I think we should take our ques from these ways os training.

Greetings,

I agree in a sense that students should learn to use the material as fast as possible.

I also worked with and trained quite a few ex. army and marines over the years and they don't know much SD or combat at all, what they learn in few weeks is just that quick and shallow.

Hapkido is deep and vast and takes time to get good I'm sure the same is true in CH.

What you put in is what you get out IMO!

[Dr.Syn]

[QUOTE=mixmastersenior]Think of Combat Hapkido as a protein bar, and Traditional Hapkido as a 5 course meal.[QUOTE]

Then let me exsist on a diet of that protein bar for a LONG time...

[American HKD]

[QUOTE=mixmastersenior]Think of Combat Hapkido as a protein bar, and Traditional Hapkido as a 5 course meal.[QUOTE]

Then let me exsist on a diet of that protein bar for a LONG time...

Greetings,

That's an interesting analogy. In what way is it a true analogy?

I don't know the CH curriculum per se. To BB in HKD most trad. schools teach around 450 tech including knife defense. Sin Moo HKD has a total of roughly 800-850 techniques to 4th dan and some special stuff 5,6,7,8 dan etc.

What does CH teach to BB?

[Shihan]

I also worked with and trained quite a few ex. army and marines over the years and they don't know much SD or combat at all, what they learn in few weeks is just that quick and shallow.

Hapkido is deep and vast and takes time to get good I'm sure the same is true in CH.

What you put in is what you get out IMO!

Yes. I agree with the following statement, AmerHKD. Military personel must be able to deal with life and death situation on a moment notice and their training reflects that. They spend more time learning small arms and explosive training than unarmed combat. So I'm not suprised by your statement. Their self defense/unarmed combat training involved killing techiques that quickly neutralize the enemy. I agree that techiques should be learned deeply and taken time to learn correctly, but I also believe that self defense techiques should be quick and easy to learn and able to practice anywhere at anytime, IMHO.

[JimH]

When I joined the Marines in 1974 H2H was taught with Killing the enemy in mind.

When I went to the Army and Served with SF for 7 years we trained to Kill the enemy.

When I was allowed to train our team in Combat arts,we trained to Kill the enemy.

When we trained foreign troops and nationals ,we taught them to kill the enemy.

The instruction we got and taught was not that much different than what was taught as WWII combat arts,it was mostly Combat Judo/jujitsu (not to be mistaken for BJJ)

As the cold War end was seen the Militaries went from just a combat role to also a Police role(more so than was seen in Vietnam) so the idea of just training to kill was amended to also include locks,pins and holding or arresting an enemy as well as the skill to kill ,but killing was placed on the back burner.

Now we have the Marines with a Career learning Martial arts program(MCMAP) and the army teaching BJJ and Sambo ( both Branches are using the arts more for Self confidence and troop building over actual combat arts)

The feeling today is that Killing the enemy is accomplished at a distance be it from Missles,bombs,mortars, snipers, rifles,grenades to pistols,the feeling is actual engagement of hand to hand Killing is rare,so it is not a priority,today they want more control taught to capture and hold.
(One army guy I spoke to said"we are taught to pin the enemy and HOLD them till help arrives",HOLD till help arrives,what a load of crap)

There are many units who bring in instructors for brief periods to actually teach them how to kill again,mostly Spec Ops units,since they realize there may be no help available and they are in close in combat.

I agree with Shihan,combat arts need to be easily taught,easily employed and easily remembered,this was the great thing of the WWII combat arts,Fairbairn,Sykes,O'neil,Nelson,the Army,Marine and Navy programs,all were similar in scope and met the requirement of quick,easy,usable.

I also agree that Hapkido is an art that requires time and work to make the techniques flow as they are Fine motor skills trained under pressure to be workable rather than to be gross motor skill,muscled techniques.
.................................................. .................................................. ....
Last night for example,we had a student come for an introductory lesson.
He lerarned:
Same side wrist grab defenses (yellow belt level)
Cross wrist grab defenses(green belt level)
Pistol defenses front and rear.
Working slowly at first he developed his confidence and he was moving well doing the technique.
(yes he needs work as even Black Belts do,to refine and tweek,but he could do the technique and he walked out with a base knowledge of doable moves)

Shihan ,we missed you last night,hope all is well with you and yours.

[American HKD]

When I joined the Marines in 1974 H2H was taught with Killing the enemy in mind.

When I went to the Army and Served with SF for 7 years we trained to Kill the enemy.

When I was allowed to train our team in Combat arts,we trained to Kill the enemy.

When we trained foreign troops and nationals ,we taught them to kill the enemy.

The instruction we got and taught was not that much different than what was taught as WWII combat arts,it was mostly Combat Judo/jujitsu (not to be mistaken for BJJ)

As the cold War end was seen the Militaries went from just a combat role to also a Police role(more so than was seen in Vietnam) so the idea of just training to kill was amended to also include locks,pins and holding or arresting an enemy as well as the skill to kill ,but killing was placed on the back burner.

Now we have the Marines with a Career learning Martial arts program(MCMAP) and the army teaching BJJ and Sambo ( both Branches are using the arts more for Self confidence and troop building over actual combat arts)

The feeling today is that Killing the enemy is accomplished at a distance be it from Missles,bombs,mortars, snipers, rifles,grenades to pistols,the feeling is actual engagement of hand to hand Killing is rare,so it is not a priority,today they want more control taught to capture and hold.
(One army guy I spoke to said"we are taught to pin the enemy and HOLD them till help arrives",HOLD till help arrives,what a load of crap)

There are many units who bring in instructors for brief periods to actually teach them how to kill again,mostly Spec Ops units,since they realize there may be no help available and they are in close in combat.

I agree with Shihan,combat arts need to be easily taught,easily employed and easily remembered,this was the great thing of the WWII combat arts,Fairbairn,Sykes,O'neil,Nelson,the Army,Marine and Navy programs,all were similar in scope and met the requirement of quick,easy,usable.

I also agree that Hapkido is an art that requires time and work to make the techniques flow as they are Fine motor skills trained under pressure to be workable rather than to be gross motor skill,muscled techniques.
.................................................. .................................................. ....
Last night for example,we had a student come for an introductory lesson.
He lerarned:
Same side wrist grab defenses (yellow belt level)
Cross wrist grab defenses(green belt level)
Pistol defenses front and rear.
Working slowly at first he developed his confidence and he was moving well doing the technique.
(yes he needs work as even Black Belts do,to refine and tweek,but he could do the technique and he walked out with a base knowledge of doable moves)

Shihan ,we missed you last night,hope all is well with you and yours.

Greetings,

Jim since you have military exp. why isn't what you learned in 12 weeks of basics adequate enough for your students instead of CH. I know most militarty training is really only a crash course regardless of the style they're teaching this month.

Another words is CH more like military training compared to Trad HKD, the techniques are geared to learn quickly with little repeation needed to use the skills? Like a Karav Maga very basic stuff IMO just simplfied Jujutsu if you will.

[JimH]

"Jim since you have military exp. why isn't what you learned in 12 weeks of basics adequate enough for your students instead of CH."

The simple answer is ,as I wrote above,the Military H2H I learned was to Kill,that does not go over well in the street and the to be justified to teach purely lethal strikes would be insane for a civilian populace,dangerous grounds for police and merely acceptable for the Military in defined instances in todays military role.

12 weeks of basic provide less than 7 hours of H2H that was unarmed,bayonet only,rifle with bayonet and pugil stick.
AIT provided a couple of hours total.
Unarmed and armed self defense in SFQC was also limited to a few hours total.
Training on the Teams was limited to what members on the teams knew and were willing to teach during PT time.

There are many Combat arts today that teach the WWII combatives methods,Kelly McCann:aka Jim Grover,Charles Nelson did,Carl Cestari does and many others do.

Then there are the reality concept or Reality based teachers,Wagner,Blauer,Dimitri,Mann,Hock and others and the uninformed in the martial arts and some civilians call this lethal training barbaric,animalistic,unneeded in the modern world,it is needed and justified as long as the trainee knows the bounds of use as dictated by the law where they live.

The military does not spend billions on weapons and weapons systems to want troops going hand to hand.
H2H is not a military priority.
H2H in the military means you have not used the radio,well,you have run out of ammo or the enemy is so close you should have done a manuever around them or you encountered a dangerous situation by accident that you moved forward with no weapon,rifle, pistol or knife at the ready.

I want my options open to be able to be aware,walk away,steer clear of a situation,talk my way out,defend with pain compliance or inflict serious injury to an attacker if need be in accordance with the law.

I just like training in the arts as I like weight training ,as I like reading,I am a physical person always have been and like training and testing myself.

I began training at 12 and am 48 at this time and I have always trained in some form of martial art since I began began in 1970 to today.

Combat hapkido/traditional hapkido,what ever form that takes, is no easier or harder to learn than the combat arts taught in the military since WWII,it is not unsimilar to some of the USMC MCMAP techniques.

Hapkido is a form of Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu which is a combat art,Hapkido/Combat hapkido are combat arts.

Today though MCMAP,BJJ and Sambo are taught to provide confidence and unit cohesion over use on the battlefield.(though the Military claims these arts are usable to subdue and take life,i do not see the sport style of BJJ used on the battlefield)

CH and TH have a set of techniques for each belt,my instructor just chooses to provide a broader training range than working on belt level only techniques.

Many schools/instructors have students spend months to years on static grabs that no one really does on the street, and falls and throws that do not work or are impractical on the concrete.
(belt level only training is not the only way to go,it is just the way it was done before us)

What was done in the not to distant past when there were no ranks used?
You trained in an art until you were proficient in its execution.

I have not read of Choi using Kyu levels,if you stayed, you trained long enough for the master or founder to find you competent to have mastered the art and you began teaching your art or his art.
(since many make their own changes,it is their art as it is different than his teacher taught.

If on the other hand an instructor teaches a variety of techniques from many levels,he does not need to fear a students inability to do the technique,just a students inability to perfect and tweek the technique,which means more work.

CH and TH are the same animal,it is just the instructors role to establish how and what a student learns,training at levels and groups just ensures a set of techniques was covered and learned to advance,but this can also be done by stepping outside of the specific belt range.

I have also trained in RBSD,this notion of teaching at growing levels and going home at the end of the day with nothing to show for 3 hours a week is why many are flocking to those Self Defense methods,people today want usable,not perfect,techniques they can use when they leave the school.
(my hapkido instructor just happens to be able to fill this need using Hapkido/Combat hapkido)
.................................................. .................................................. ...
I am not praising CH over TH as I have studied both.

I am not saying My instructors way is better,I like it and so do the others,but it is up to each instructor to run their school and provide knowledge to their students as they see fit and are comfortable with.

I like combat hapkido because My instructor and the students are Great people.
(had I been looking and found these guys doing any other art,style or form I would have stayed and been doing that as they are the reason I stay and attend and train,aside from my love of training the people and environment must be conducive to wanting to learn)

The Hapkido taught is simple/yet complex (to master),as similar to TH, and the way the system is designed fits my needs at this time (getting older) I do not want the high kicks,that serve no real purpose on the street,and I do not want to be thrown high all night long,when that is also not feasible on the street.

Again,CH and TH are not that different,the changes made to CH of down playing high kicks and heavy over the top throws is being seen in some other TH schools also,as people mature there must be an alternative and CH provides it ,where many TH schools stick to certain moves no matter what.
Slight changes do not degrade an art.

[American HKD]

"Jim since you have military exp. why isn't what you learned in 12 weeks of basics adequate enough for your students instead of CH."

The simple answer is ,as I wrote above,the Military H2H I learned was to Kill,that does not go over well in the street and the to be justified to teach purely lethal strikes would be insane for a civilian populace,dangerous grounds for police and merely acceptable for the Military in defined instances in todays military role.

12 weeks of basic provide less than 7 hours of H2H that was unarmed,bayonet only,rifle with bayonet and pugil stick.
AIT provided a couple of hours total.
Unarmed and armed self defense in SFQC was also limited to a few hours total.
Training on the Teams was limited to what members on the teams knew and were willing to teach during PT time.

There are many Combat arts today that teach the WWII combatives methods,Kelly McCann:aka Jim Grover,Charles Nelson did,Carl Cestari does and many others do.

Then there are the reality concept or Reality based teachers,Wagner,Blauer,Dimitri,Mann,Hock and others and the uninformed in the martial arts and some civilians call this lethal training barbaric,animalistic,unneeded in the modern world,it is needed and justified as long as the trainee knows the bounds of use as dictated by the law where they live.

The military does not spend billions on weapons and weapons systems to want troops going hand to hand.
H2H is not a military priority.
H2H in the military means you have not used the radio,well,you have run out of ammo or the enemy is so close you should have done a manuever around them or you encountered a dangerous situation by accident that you moved forward with no weapon,rifle, pistol or knife at the ready.

I want my options open to be able to be aware,walk away,steer clear of a situation,talk my way out,defend with pain compliance or inflict serious injury to an attacker if need be in accordance with the law.

I just like training in the arts as I like weight training ,as I like reading,I am a physical person always have been and like training and testing myself.

I began training at 12 and am 48 at this time and I have always trained in some form of martial art since I began began in 1970 to today.

Combat hapkido/traditional hapkido,what ever form that takes, is no easier or harder to learn than the combat arts taught in the military since WWII,it is not unsimilar to some of the USMC MCMAP techniques.

Hapkido is a form of Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu which is a combat art,Hapkido/Combat hapkido are combat arts.

Today though MCMAP,BJJ and Sambo are taught to provide confidence and unit cohesion over use on the battlefield.(though the Military claims these arts are usable to subdue and take life,i do not see the sport style of BJJ used on the battlefield)

CH and TH have a set of techniques for each belt,my instructor just chooses to provide a broader training range than working on belt level only techniques.

Many schools/instructors have students spend months to years on static grabs that no one really does on the street, and falls and throws that do not work or are impractical on the concrete.
(belt level only training is not the only way to go,it is just the way it was done before us)

What was done in the not to distant past when there were no ranks used?
You trained in an art until you were proficient in its execution.

I have not read of Choi using Kyu levels,if you stayed, you trained long enough for the master or founder to find you competent to have mastered the art and you began teaching your art or his art.
(since many make their own changes,it is their art as it is different than his teacher taught.

If on the other hand an instructor teaches a variety of techniques from many levels,he does not need to fear a students inability to do the technique,just a students inability to perfect and tweek the technique,which means more work.

CH and TH are the same animal,it is just the instructors role to establish how and what a student learns,training at levels and groups just ensures a set of techniques was covered and learned to advance,but this can also be done by stepping outside of the specific belt range.

I have also trained in RBSD,this notion of teaching at growing levels and going home at the end of the day with nothing to show for 3 hours a week is why many are flocking to those Self Defense methods,people today want usable,not perfect,techniques they can use when they leave the school.
(my hapkido instructor just happens to be able to fill this need using Hapkido/Combat hapkido)
.................................................. .................................................. ...
I am not praising CH over TH as I have studied both.

I am not saying My instructors way is better,I like it and so do the others,but it is up to each instructor to run their school and provide knowledge to their students as they see fit and are comfortable with.

I like combat hapkido because My instructor and the students are Great people.
(had I been looking and found these guys doing any other art,style or form I would have stayed and been doing that as they are the reason I stay and attend and train,aside from my love of training the people and environment must be conducive to wanting to learn)

The Hapkido taught is simple/yet complex (to master),as similar to TH, and the way the system is designed fits my needs at this time (getting older) I do not want the high kicks,that serve no real purpose on the street,and I do not want to be thrown high all night long,when that is also not feasible on the street.

Again,CH and TH are not that different,the changes made to CH of down playing high kicks and heavy over the top throws is being seen in some other TH schools also,as people mature there must be an alternative and CH provides it ,where many TH schools stick to certain moves no matter what.
Slight changes do not degrade an art.

Greetings,

That's good clarification.

I still do high kicks but they are getting harder and require alot of time to keep your skills sharp.

The "reality" based systems are somewhat a joke in many ways they're simplistic and very one dimentional, unless you stay with that for a few years you'll still won;t be able to do alot of the moves.

It's important in HKD to somehow teach quick SD to beginners. In my expirience around 6th or 5th gup a student has a fair working knowledge but that's 1-1.5 years of training.

What SD do you teach new students in thier first couple of months?

[JimH]

The following is a brief description of the white to yellow requirements:
Breakfalls/rolls:Rear,front,left ,right,forward roll,rear roll
Basic kicks:Front,roundhouse,side,back,scoop
Basic Strikes:Punches,knife hand,ridgehand,palm heel,tiger mouth
Breakaways:downward,horizontal,upward,circular in,circular out,all with a strike to finish
Same side wrist 1-5 very basic
Cross wrist: 1-5 very basic
Two hands grab two front:1-2 very basic
Two hands grab one:1-2
Front bear hug:1-2

This takes 3-6 months to advance depending on training time,effort and past experience.
Past training and the ability to pick up the techniques and implement them is an advantage and is rewarded.

The subsequent Belt level techniques build upon these moves and allow a beginner to learn,but they are and have been exposed to the advanced moves as well,so they can see the importance of the basics and why to perfect them.

Every training night everyone trains in the requirements for promotion of everyone in attendance.
It works as a refresher for higher belts and a peek at things to come for the beginner.
(our classes are small,we have approx 15 regulars,but with summer now class size can be alot smaller,better for the sudents who can attend)

As said in an earlier post,the Gentleman we had last night came with two years past experience in aikido,he learned the same side yellow 1-5 as indicated above for his level,but he also saw and worked Green belt cross grabs and worked some pistol defenses,front and rear.
(he walked away a happy camper with some usable knowledge,the ability to do it under threat or pressure is another story, he might still be able to get the moves grossly over fine,but we teach to disengage at the first opportunity so getting free with a strike maybe all he needs to dissuade an attacker and get away,more than he knew 90 minutes earlier)

[Shihan]

Greetings,

That's good clarification.

I still do high kicks but they are getting harder and require alot of time to keep your skills sharp.

As you recognize for yourself, the older we get certain skills become harder to perform;ie kicks. While I don't have the pleasure of personally knowing you I'm pretty sure that if in a SD/life of death situation you wouldn't use high kicks unless you absolutely felt secure in doing so. Without soften up an experienced street fighter, any kick above the waist would be at the kicker's own risk. I too have studied THKD for 7 years before switching over to CH and see where both can flow into each other. Work in harmony with each other. They compliment each other. True ying and yang.

The "reality" based systems are somewhat a joke in many ways they're simplistic and very one dimentional, unless you stay with that for a few years you'll still won;t be able to do alot of the moves.

It's important in HKD to somehow teach quick SD to beginners. In my expirience around 6th or 5th gup a student has a fair working knowledge but that's 1-1.5 years of training.

I'm a firm believer in the acronym K.I.S.S ("keep it simple, sam". I don't want to call anyone stupid). I have found that the simple techniques were easier to remember and perform. Learning how to break a body down. Knowing the correct targets to hit to get the proper response from the body. Knowing how to flow from one range into another, and from one techique, if it fails, into another. I think we all know that we will not be able to catch a punch in the air and lock the arm. While this might be done in demos, a good street fighter, or any person that knows how to throw a punch and withdraw their arm, this won't happen. I don't believe, (in my opinion) that it should take 1-1 1/2 years for a student to learn or have a fair working knowledge of the basics. Either the student isn't serious about training, or instruction is lacking (not accusing you of this practice AmerHKD) Learning basic strikes, break aways and simple locks/throws should be learned in the first 6 to 12 months of training. Giving people the tools to walk out your dojang/dojo confidently. Not depending on a black belt or being a high rank to defend oneself. Again, I firmly believe in the practice of basic techniques over the more so-called advance techniques, I also believe that learning advance techniques mixed with basic techniques help the beginner appreciate the subtle tweaks between the two.

[Shihan]

Shihan ,we missed you last night,hope all is well with you and yours.

Thanks Jim. It's nice to be missed by your classmates. It shows a true feeling of belonging. I had a slight accident last weekend that put me in the hospital over the weekend, but rest assured that I'm well. I won't be in tonight, but I will be in next week. Please let Sabumnim know. I missplaced his number and couldn't call him.

[Thomas]

One thing I like about the way Combat Hapkido is organized is that the core curriculum and the "add-on" modules build on the core concepts to make the art as wide or narrow as you need.

Recently working with an Army Sgt Major who is a CH black belt (see journal write up and photos in album), it was fascinating to see how our "expressions" of Combat Hapkido differed. I study it as self defence and as a lifelong learning project and so not only do I focus on the core but also a lot of outlying technqiues and applications. The Sgt Major breaks the core concepts and technqiues down to a smaller curriculum of easy to teach skills done "by the numbers" and reinforced by high speed flow drills. He teaches the program in 3 month segments (I think). At the end of each module the students have a handful of techniques that work and that can be applied from several different entries and situations. The main goal is "hit hard and fast and get out". His students aren't doing it for "rank" or "life goals", they do it to be effective on the battlefield.

His focus is no less effective but it is much more streamlined and easier to teach. What he lacks in depth he makes up for in "hammering the material over and over" and applying it from all angles. As an infantry guy, he really has tailored it for quick reaction with little hesiation. It's still Combat Hapkido, but it's streamlined.

[JimH]

Shihan,
I am sorry to hear you were in the hospital,but I am glad to hear you all alright.

When the Hard core regulars miss training you know that something happened,you miss them and hope for their speedy return.

Our group is small and we have the advantage to be friendlier than the pure business side many schools offer.

I will tell Al tonight,I am sure you will be getting a call from him.
Had you missed tonight ,and we had not known of your accident, he would have called you for sure.

Take Care of Yourself.

[Thomas]

Nice questions here

The "reality" based systems are somewhat a joke in many ways they're simplistic and very one dimentional, unless you stay with that for a few years you'll still won;t be able to do alot of the moves.

In my opinion, the "reality-based systems" have a very clear purpose: quick defence in hard situations. The concepts and techniques are stripped down and the application/training is done as realistically as possible. The ones I have seen seem to fill their purpose. I think many of the core ideas, drills, and methodolgy translate well into martial arts classrooms (with some modification).

I think the basic problem with simple, quick and clear training is a lack of further development in some cases. What I like about a system like Hapkdio or Combat Hapkido is the continuation of skills and concept development, even unto the technqiues that "with onlyt a couple months training, it won't work for you.... but after 10 years, it will." Inefficient? Yes... unless you are a lifelong practitioner.

It's important in HKD to somehow teach quick SD to beginners. In my expirience around 6th or 5th gup a student has a fair working knowledge but that's 1-1.5 years of training.

What SD do you teach new students in thier first couple of months?

This is a really difficult curriculum problem that we are dealing with as a new school. We wnat our students to learn Self defence as soon as possible... but the training must be consistant and spiralling in nature. They need the foundation first.

Looking at the bare minimum requirements for the first few months (white, yellow, and orage belt), all we really see on paper is:
-basic breakfalls
-basic strikes (kicks, punches)
- breakaways from same side wrist grab
-defences vs same side wrist grab (maintaining contact)
-defences vs cross grabs

Although it looks very small, there is so much work to do. Giving students the practice and work to make the strikes.breakfalls work takes lots of time but builds our foundation for later.

The defences and breakaways [b]introduce[/] the concepts and techniques that will appear thoughout the curriculum in modified forms.

What do we add to this list of technqiues to make the SD pretty decent after a few months?
- Drills that reinforce and vary the strikes and defence. These drills later add in trapping and access to some of the techniques found in the defences above.
- Practice applying the techniques learned from one situation (e.g. same side wrist grab) to other grabs and attacks (punches, headlocks, etc.)
- Discussion on levels of force, awareness, vocalization, and practice(drills) focusing on disengaging from a person, on avoiding getting grabbed, and on keeping the way clear to the door. All these variations can be added into the normal practice of the "same side breakaways" and helps the students learn how to apply the techniques in a more universal manner while watching out for other important self protection skills.

So after about 3 months, they only have a small handful of tools but they are learning to use them in various ways and more importantly learning and practicing how to avoid having to use the techniques.

[American HKD]

As you recognize for yourself, the older we get certain skills become harder to perform;ie kicks. While I don't have the pleasure of personally knowing you I'm pretty sure that if in a SD/life of death situation you wouldn't use high kicks unless you absolutely felt secure in doing so. Without soften up an experienced street fighter, any kick above the waist would be at the kicker's own risk. I too have studied THKD for 7 years before switching over to CH and see where both can flow into each other. Work in harmony with each other. They compliment each other. True ying and yang.



I'm a firm believer in the acronym K.I.S.S ("keep it simple, sam". I don't want to call anyone stupid). I have found that the simple techniques were easier to remember and perform. Learning how to break a body down. Knowing the correct targets to hit to get the proper response from the body. Knowing how to flow from one range into another, and from one techique, if it fails, into another. I think we all know that we will not be able to catch a punch in the air and lock the arm. While this might be done in demos, a good street fighter, or any person that knows how to throw a punch and withdraw their arm, this won't happen. I don't believe, (in my opinion) that it should take 1-1 1/2 years for a student to learn or have a fair working knowledge of the basics. Either the student isn't serious about training, or instruction is lacking (not accusing you of this practice AmerHKD) Learning basic strikes, break aways and simple locks/throws should be learned in the first 6 to 12 months of training. Giving people the tools to walk out your dojang/dojo confidently. Not depending on a black belt or being a high rank to defend oneself. Again, I firmly believe in the practice of basic techniques over the more so-called advance techniques, I also believe that learning advance techniques mixed with basic techniques help the beginner appreciate the subtle tweaks between the two.

Greetings

Right you are I wouldn't come out throwing high kicks in a SD situation, but I believe if used correctly at the right time etc. they will work.

Subjectively I say 1-1.5 years is pretty good skill, I keep it real in the sense that no one feels prematurely confident with thier skill after 6 months.

If I was teaching as the military does just a limited few moves 6 month would be alot of training but it's not the case in HKD.

I don't know many people in any system that can truely defend themself in a few months of lessons?

JimH mentioned above he's teaches gun techs. to beginers, I have to disagree with that premise. Gun defense requires reflexes, awareness, and high level skills to be successful if your really lucky!

I'd hate to see yellow belt try it cause he learned in class when he can't even keep his balance yet?

But that's just me!

[JimH]

RBSD,Reality based Self Defense,is a no frills self defense defense sytem that shows Basic moves and, many times, singular moves that are usable in Multiple attack scenarios.
RBSD is a combat system,it is meant to give usable techniques in minimum time.
Practise makes the movemnets flow,but the knowledge is there.

Hapkido,Combat Hapkido,Tae Kwon Do,Shotokan,BJJ what ever are ARTS,that means that they take a lifetime to try and perfect,it requires a dedicated person.

A boxer perfects boxing,that is an artist ,if done right.
Someone who learns to shuffle and throw lefts and rights and that takes a lesson or two in boxing may call themselves a boxer but they are not they are fighters.
(that does not mean the can not handle themselves or knock someone out)

A person who tries to put some form of color to canvas may say they are an artist but they are not, a true artists puts a lifetime into what they do to make it a perfect work,they are the artist.

People who do combatives or RBSD do not claim to be life time devotees,they want usable results at the end of the day,they do not want to dedicate a lifetime to have 10 years in to an art to think they can defend themselves,they want to learn a move work it under a true scenario and walk away with a doable move.
(this is what is making what they teach and how they teach it so popular)

Thsi is why if you read the Mags like black belt,budo even Kung Fu All the arts,even tai chiu,are all touting the realism of their arts and its quick usablitiy in Combat.

The artist is the person who says to create art we must first learn to draw a line to mix a collor to build upon a basic,in Hapkido this is what we try to do but many who come want doable results without the dedication to time.

We owe it to students to provide that mix,to show them the doable while providing the artists a way to persue a life time dedicated to perfection.

In 1970 I was training in Tae Kwon Do with GM S Henry Cho,I was a white belt and we were training kicks and we started doing gun/knife disarms using kicks,it was not felt that this was beyond our ability.

Today those of us in Hapkido are most reluctant to teach a kicking defense against a gun,but to say that working a gun defense needs so many years to develop a realistic base to make it work, to me, is fwrong.

Being able to use the move requires all things to be in perfect alignment,but this is true for a grand master as well as a white belt.
(people with zero training can and do get away or wrestle away weapons from thugs)

The moves we work against a pistol are taught to many militaries and they are done in short time requiring little to no build up in preparation.

The disarms, of most, of the most popular arts,videos,DVD's in the mags and books out today are the same moves we do,yet they sell more and are more popular because they do not hold people back saying they are not ready,people are ready to learn and do,maybe grossly but they do learn, as oppossed to perfecting as we in the arts would like to do.

I think, a mix of Self Defensive, combat style showing of a technique and the artistic,build up of techniques,basic to complex,prrovide a good base for students,but that is just my opinion,we all must find what suits our needs and desires as students and instructors.

[American HKD]

Greetings,

JimH

Do you know Master Rhodes one of Henry S. Cho top students taught in the Bronx?

Mr Rhodes taught one of my best friends and student TKD in the 70/80s.

or maybe my friends Gary Moskowitz and Charles Weg TKD?

Gary was also in the Miyama Ryu dojo in the 70 with Sensei Perria (sp?)

[Shihan]

I think, a mix of Self Defensive, combat style showing of a technique and the artistic,build up of techniques,basic to complex,prrovide a good base for students,but that is just my opinion,we all must find what suits our needs and desires as students and instructors.

Once again Jim. we agree. But let me pose what you said in a very simple question to the room: For this example, let's exclude guns and knives. Suppose a person is a martial artist and has a child (sex doesn't matter). Suppose this same child is being bullied in school, and that same bully have been suspensed for a week. The child is worried that in a week the bully will come back to pick up where they left off. Now as the parent of the bullied child, your child (who never had a desire to train in martial arts before) ask you to teach them how to fight to protect themself from the school bully. So as a caring parent, you teach your child some self defense techniques. You have spoken to the bully's parent(s) and this having changed anything, so you feel you must teach your child to protect themself. What do you teach them? How do you teach them? What's more important in this scenario ? The time spent training or the instruction and quality of the training ? Remember, you only have a week to perpare the child. What techniques would you teach them? Would you teach weapons? Forms? Would you teach the traditional doctrine? I would like all who reads this to answer.

[JimH]

American HKD,
Sorry I do not know the names mentioned.

I trained with Henry Cho from 70-74 when he taught a TKD class at my High school in the Bronx.

We were limited to our exposure to the higher members of his dojang as we only went there for promotions and to prepare for competitions.
We did have exposure to one of his black Belts who also taught Hapkido,Moriera??(he was missing his index finger)

One of my seniors in our Hapkido school (J Arroyo) is one of Cho's and Moriera's?? 3rd or 4th degree Black Belts.

As to the students of Shihan P you listed,I am unfamiliar with them but I do know Shihan Negron (studied with him) and Shihan Ibarra.

While I do not know the people you mentioned ,I know people who know the people,lol.

I guess 6 degrees of separation is true,and it is truly a small world.

[JimH]

Shihan,
Here is my response to your situation:
First after talking to the school and trying to talk to the parents of the Bully I would ,as a backup,use my week to work and show some basic Self Defense to my kid.

Most Bullies and criminals have a method or set of tactics that they have developed and worked to what they believe is perfection.

I would have my kid work scenarios similar to the event which happened to him/her at the hands of the bully or scenarios from actions seen with the Bully and other victims.

I would teach my kid the art of conversation,the appearance of fear ,while being strong,awareness and the need to escape before resorting to a fight,but if the fight was unavoidable then end it quickly.

I would have my child pretend to be the bully to get inside the bullies mindset and show me how the Bully threatened or used force on him/her.

I would then develop a few quick Self defense scenarios based on the Bullies attack method and have my Kid work them,not to perfection and quality of technique,but to Make Something work.
(because adrenaline will be making an appearance and will dictate how close to fine motor skills the child will be able to do)

If the Bully threatens at distance then escape maybe doable,if not then force the Bully to close the gap ,or both parties close the gap to take away the Bullies kicking ability,maybe close inside to make the Bully unable to punch,force a grab and go from there.

What ever your child does is dictated by the Bullies actions so the scenarios must be developed from a known act by the Bully to form a few quick easy to learn and use set of defenses.
(make the child able to perform an escape with minimal injury to the bully,no closed fist strikes, rather than to stand and exchange,we are not creating a new bully from our child,we are having a child who does not have to be afraid)

I would stress escape over pain compliance techniques,or throws,pins and locks,because escape looks better to the school than engagement and if the fight happens on concrete then murphy's law may cause an event we do not want our child involved in,like a serious injury or brain damage if the bully hits their head off the ground.

This would be my method of instruction for my child.

[Dr.Syn]

Shihan,
Here is my response to your situation:
First after talking to the school and trying to talk to the parents of the Bully I would ,as a backup,use my week to work and show some basic Self Defense to my kid.Most Bullies and criminals have a method or set of tactics that they have developed and worked to what they believe is perfection

Been there..This fat female teenager took a dislike to my step daughter because for her Spanish looks, after the school was no help I spent a weekend teaching her techniques that would defeat the bullies MO of attack the counter measures, and it worked..So much so that they were sent home from school..On her way home she had to walk past the bullies houseand the bullies Father issued verbal threats from the porch of his residence that scared her so bad she ran home..
I happened to be off duty that day and after hearing about the threats I walked to the house asked him to step off the porch so I can show if how I treat individuals that threaten little girls, he bacame a little girl himself and ran into the house to call the local police..When They arrived i explained the whole situation to them..I was sent on my way do they could have a talk with him..No further incidents after that..

[mixmastersenior]

Drac, you should have gone there in uniform. I would have loved to see his face when he sees the father of his daughter's target was a cop!

[Dr.Syn]

Drac, you should have gone there in uniform. I would have loved to see his face when he sees the father of his daughter's target was a cop!

The local "boys" took care of that after I "badged" them..Every cop I know do not take too kindly to another cops family member being threatned especially kids...

[Shihan]

Gentlemen,

In my time coming here, I have heard the good and bad about Combat Hapkido. I have heard what it is and what it isn't. In my short time in training in CH, I've found it to complement my THKD training. But why is it that I don't hear people talk about Modern Hapkido or Tactical Hapkido ? Is CH so controversial, or so successful that people look for flaws and weaknesses to challenge its validity and effectiveness in the streets and martial arts community? I would like to hear some feedback about these other styles of hapkido.

www.erietkd.com

www.modernhapkido.org

[American HKD]

Gentlemen,

In my time coming here, I have heard the good and bad about Combat Hapkido. I have heard what it is and what it isn't. In my short time in training in CH, I've found it to complement my THKD training. But why is it that I don't hear people talk about Modern Hapkido or Tactical Hapkido ? Is CH so controversial, or so successful that people look for flaws and weaknesses to challenge its validity and effectiveness in the streets and martial arts community? I would like to hear some feedback about these other styles of hapkido.

www.erietkd.com

www.modernhapkido.org

Greetings,

These two systems aren't really on the HKD radar screen.

There not on the covers of magazines or in every issue in TKD times advertisings.

Just to be clear I don't know if they're good or bad styles, just to small to make any difference.

The tacticle guy has seems to have No Legit HKD lineage at all but hey that never stopped anyone else from making up thier own HKD systems.

[mike-IHF]

I have to agree with Stuart. Thoseother two systems are not as out in the open as CH. I did find the websites quite funny anyway. I would like to propose an idea that there be a seperate section for CH. I personally feel, and I'm sure others do that CH is NOT Hapkido. And that these past threads on CH, have taken too much time away from discussing real Hapkido. I vote to the moderators, to have a seperate space for this. I also feel that it just leads to to many arguments between "traditional Hapkido Practitioners", and " Ch Practitioners". Any thoughts on this?

[JimH]

CH is not Hapkido??
Why is Combat Hapkido not Hapkido?

To those who say it is not Hapkido I think the reasearch you have done ,if any,is very lacking.

Combat Hapkido is Traditionaol Hapkido plus.

Combat Hapkido is closer to the original,combat only aspect of Aiki Jutsu,as taugt by the founder Choi.

Did Choi tell Ji Han Jae that the changes he made ,made the original art invalid?
No he welcomed the changes or additions.

GMP was a Master under GM Myung this is undisputed and anyone who thinks he was not still can contact Myung and ask him.

I have seen the videos where GMP was the Opening Hapikido act as he and GM Myung traveled and did seminars.

GMP did not create a style and give himself rank,he is still a student of GM In Sun Seo,as he was of Wolfenhauser and myung and others in the begining.

Of the people who have said CH is not Hapkido what is your complaint?

What is the basis of your claim?
Some crap on the web or have you actually been to a seminar or actually seen the CH Tapes?

If you have viewed the material,what is the difference?

The throws and kicks are not all done high,?
They need not be high in actual combat?
They were not high in the begining.
Ask the original members of Choi's teachings.

I have viewed GM Bong Soo Hans tape set and it is garbage as far as Hapkido goes and is more TKD and fails in comparison to GMPs Tape sets.

There are many THKD members on this board who are in CH,why?
Ask them how different CH is?

Is Traditional that different?

I have been in traditional Hapkido and aikido and what I do in CH is the root system, Aiki Jujutsu,what I do in CH is Traditional Hapkido with a bit more and the ability to cross train into other more popular arts today is available if desired ( FMA and BJJ).

Everyone who has a problem with CH says it is too main stream ,too popular,it slaps the face of GMs in Hapkido who cannot keep enough students to run a school.

I am sorry but CH fits more of the populace than the tarditional which pulls in fit ,young ,males,who,while young,can do the high kicks and the high falls.,lets see how they feel down the road,I know many who leave the art due to the pain of training.

Do your own research, see the material and or attend a seminar and see if it slaps traditional hapkido or if it fits and makes it work for everyone.

Until you do your own,legit, research then you have no business saying what does and does not belong in what section.

I have read so much untrue crap posted by those who say I read,I know a guy who said or a guy who knows a guy who said,well lets hear first hand knowledge and info because the second hand that is spewed is Crap.

It is funny that those who have first hand knowledge do not say that it is fake Hapkido.

Ask Thomas,who has trained in Korea,lets ask Master Ingersol,lets ask the others who have trained in both traditional and CH like myself,Shihan and many others.

Should we have different sections for those who follow the Choi lineage or the Ji Han Jae lineage?

Should we have different sections for those who do just hapkido form those who mix it together with TKD and created forms.

Lets have a section for those who do Hapkido competitions because they are making a sport of our art.

To those traditionalists who claim CH is not traditional then you best find out why CH is on so many Magazine covers and has so many articles published,it is due to the public want,so ask your GMs what they are not providing their students to gain more public interest.
(we know they are providing their growing fees and charges for seminars that can be day long Breathing seminars,how about helping their instructors grow a bigger student base)

To those who think CH takes up so much space where are your posts to questions on dealing with bullies,dealing with reality,or just anything of a positive helpful nature,most post snide remarks and have no clue of reality of what is and is not workable ,street usable ,hapkido.

I posted our white to yellow requirements,tell me what part of it is not Hapkido,the rest of our requirements grow on that so what is not hapkido?

Lets knock off the bull,post to exchange ideas and help others and stop attacking each others Hapkido as it is all from the same place no matter the additions to the original roots.

This thread was titled Combat Hapkido and it has over 5,750 views,how many views would a thread called Traditional Hapkido get???

[Shihan]

I have to agree with Stuart. Thoseother two systems are not as out in the open as CH. I did find the websites quite funny anyway. I would like to propose an idea that there be a seperate section for CH. I personally feel, and I'm sure others do that CH is NOT Hapkido. And that these past threads on CH, have taken too much time away from discussing real Hapkido. I vote to the moderators, to have a seperate space for this. I also feel that it just leads to to many arguments between "traditional Hapkido Practitioners", and " Ch Practitioners". Any thoughts on this?

How do you determine what is real Hapkido, Mike? I'm trying to understand when did one way become way? While I don't know anything about the men in the websites I posted, who are we to say that their hapkido isn't legit? We might not want to learn from them for whatever reason, but how do we know their style of hapkido isn't effective? Isn't that the most important aspect self defense, Effectiveness? I know all about the lineage,tradition and effectiveness of THKD. I 've trained in it myself. But I also see the effectiveness of CH. I see where both fit in and compliment each other. I also see where they clash, but I'm in it for the bigger picture. To make my techniques work for me. Without thinking. Without hesitation. I personally think that separating us does more damage than good. Healthy debate, in MA is good for growth. I believe it open our minds to the diversity of man. But also other possiblities when it comes to fighting and protecting ourselves. MA's are like chefs....always borrowing recipes from each other and not giving the other credit. I find that talking to other hapkidoists in here, we (knowing or unknowing) push each other to train harder in our chosen art. (I know I try to train as much as I can) Are we going to get into the pettiness of this is better than that? Are you to tell me that practitioners of this wonderful art, whether it be traditional, combat, modern, tactical, can't find common ground to walk on ? And on a last note...I personally don't think that GM P was, is or going to replace THKD. He can't. I also believe he wasn't trying to totally separate himself from it either.

[doshim]

Mr H.,

You wrote:

I have viewed GM Bong Soo Hans tape set and it is garbage as far as Hapkido goes and is more TKD and fails in comparison to GMPs Tape sets.

Then you wrote:

Lets knock off the bull,post to exchange ideas and help others and stop attacking each others Hapkido as it is all from the same place no matter the additions to the original roots.

I would have to agree with the main thrust of your post. The above just seemed a bit hypocritical...

[Shihan]

Very well said Jim !!!!

This is why you're my Kyosanim, JimH. I couldn't have said it better myself. This is why I'm proud to be a member of Combat Hapkido and to be training with you. Stand up men like yourself, Sabumnim Medina, our classmates, and all the men here in this forum who practice Combat Hapkido. Instead of bowing down and feeling ashamed, like we're training in a second class system, we stand up proudly and face our opponents with facts. Until we can stand on common ground, to see the similarities of OUR ART OF HAPKIDO(trad or combat), let those who believe that what we are doing isn't real, prove it or forever hold their peace.

[mixmastersenior]

There seem to be two types of practioners on these forums. People who are new to the art and full of questions. And people who have been around the art for a long time and are full of something else. (just kidding). It is quite apparent that the seasoned Hapkido artists are all quite loyal to their kwan and to their Grandmaster. this is how it should be. I don't think there is any chance of anyone persuading someone who has reached the level of Black Belt to change their opinion of their system. but remember, we are here to promote the art, not tear it down. As with any person of celebrity, Martial artists in the Public eye are going to have supporters and detracters. We should set aside posturing and become strong sources of wisdom the new students of Hapkido. there is a pool of knowledge on this forum that is staggering. Let's not keep it dammed up with petty bickering. I believe most of us got into the Martial arts to help ourselves and to help others. here is our chance. Let's not waste it.

[Hapkidoin P]

Well said,Sir.

I always find it amusing when someone says they own something like a martial art.

Hapkido is bigger than you,me,and both our GM's put together..and will continue to be around and practiced long after we have departed this place..our job is to practice it and learn it to the best of our ability with the time given us so we can pass it on to ensure the Art's survival...sometimes people forget this.

[mike-IHF]

Jim H,

Woh, woh, woh, hold your horses. Your post is blown way out of preportion. I'm not saying CH is bad, or anything like that. My post was just refering to the obvious. That the to theories behind traditional, and CH has caused problems. I did not mean anything else by it. And, your post just proves my point. And please, don't talk down to me like I'm one of these children that frequent this board. If you want to patronize people your barking up the wrong tree. On that note, my post was directed at Stuart, and Shihan regarding mainly marketing of CH, and the other two schools that Shihan posted.

Combat Hapkido is closer to the original,combat only aspect of Aiki Jutsu,as taugt by the founder Choi.

GMP was a Master under GM Myung this is undisputed and anyone who thinks he was not still can contact Myung and ask him.


I never even mentioned Pelligrini in my post. So I don't know why your saying basically I'm talking about him, and his background at all. However, your quote above is not completely accurate. Myung is not really considered a student of Choi. Myung, calls Choi his teacher. But infact he is really a student of Ji, and only spent a limited time with Choi. Infact, what Myung teaches is very comparibale to Ji, NOT Choi. So don't make the assumption, that I need to do more research.

I am sorry but CH fits more of the populace than the tarditional which pulls in fit ,young ,males,who,while young,can do the high kicks and the high falls.,lets see how they feel down the road,I know many who leave the art due to the pain of training.

No, it's not because it fits more of the populace. It's called good marketing to draw people in.

If you have viewed the material,what is the difference?

The throws and kicks are not all done high,?
They need not be high in actual combat?
They were not high in the begining.
Ask the original members of Choi's teachings.

We use very tight circle, low techniques. We don't do anything high. So I'm not sure who your refering to?

I have been in traditional Hapkido and aikido and what I do in CH is the root system, Aiki Jujutsu,

We believe we teach the root system aswell. However, the longest running students of Choi. GM Lim, and GM Kim Yun Sang. And neither of those styles look anything like CH. Infact, I've seen a fair amount of clinching in CH, which is not apart of TH, or Aikijujutsu. That defeats the whole purpose.

To those traditionalists who claim CH is not traditional then you best find out why CH is on so many Magazine covers and has so many articles published,it is due to the public want

Again, it's called marketing.

Anyway, I won't post anymore on this subject. All I was doing was preposing a idea, and you start blsting me about thoughts, and writings that I never said. You drew alot of assumptions, on my post that I did not intend. Now you want me to explain something that only conjured up in your mind, not mine. So, we could go back, and forth with this all day long. But I will not. You said you used to study TH right? well then I'll leave you with this thought. "if the grass looks greener on the other side, your not taking care of your own yard". Take care.

[MaxG]

I vote to the moderators, to have a seperate space for this. I also feel that it just leads to to many arguments between "traditional Hapkido Practitioners", and " Ch Practitioners". Any thoughts on this?

Yeah, I got a thought on that. It's pretty much the same line of thinking that racist people back in the 50's thought. You want all CH practitioners to "sit at the back of the bus".

You want CH practitioners to have their own drinking fountain. You want a separate section so you don't have to intermingle with us folk.

Need I say more?

Edit: I'm not saying you meant it that way but that is definitely how it's coming across.

[austinso]

Need I say more?

Please don't.

Austin

[Dr.Syn]

attend a seminar and see if it slaps traditional hapkido or if it fits and makes it work for everyone

EXCELLENT POST!!!!...What it all boils down to is to keep all negativity to yourself until you actually experience it first hand..

[iron_ox]

Yeah, I got a thought on that. It's pretty much the same line of thinking that racist people back in the 50's thought. You want all CH practitioners to "sit at the back of the bus".

You want CH practitioners to have their own drinking fountain. You want a separate section so you don't have to intermingle with us folk.

Need I say more?

Edit: I'm not saying you meant it that way but that is definitely how it's coming across.

Can I believe that you took this petty little argument and equated it to the Civil Rights Movement and tried to connect it to the bravery of Rosa Parks? Max, really?

JimH, the man's name was Wollmershauser, from whom Pelligrini got an Honrary 2nd Dan. Just a minor point, but in an argument about propriety, at least get the parties right...

[Thomas]

I would like to propose an idea that there be a seperate section for CH. I personally feel, and I'm sure others do that CH is NOT Hapkido. And that these past threads on CH, have taken too much time away from discussing real Hapkido. I vote to the moderators, to have a seperate space for this. I also feel that it just leads to to many arguments between "traditional Hapkido Practitioners", and " Ch Practitioners". Any thoughts on this?

Personally I hope this doesn't happen. I would no sooner like to see a separate forum for Combat Hapkido as I would for Hapkiyoosool. MAP has a great Hapkido forum where people from various kwans (including "Chon-Tu Kwan", Combat Hapkido) can come together and share in relative peace. That's a pretty tough thing to find on nearly all other MA forums. Personally I like being able to share a forum and topics with so many people from so many different Hapkido kwans because it lets us learn and share outside of our own school.
The advice to get out and train in other Hapkido schools is a good one and may help realize that the various kwans are not as different as they may appear. Mike, you are very welcome to check out our school anytime so you can make your own opinion.

As for discussing "real Hapkido"... as you probably have seen on other forums, no one can agree on this either and the petty poltical bullcrap that so-called "masters" and "students" of Hapkido engage in by attacking other kwans and Hapkido people is downright embarassing and pathetic.

One thing I like about Comabt Hapkido is the way GM P and most of his students refuse to engage in discussion that put down other arts, esepcially other Hapkido kwans. Watching a bunch of Hapkido black belts act like a bunch of babies crying over whose lineage is more "pure", who did what to whom in a back room, and putting people down because they don't have the right number of "sneech stars" on their Hapkido unforms or certificate can be very embarrasing.

[MaxG]

Can I believe that you took this petty little argument and equated it to the Civil Rights Movement and tried to connect it to the bravery of Rosa Parks? Max, really?


Yeah, I'll admit I posted in anger. But frankly I'm just sick of some people coming onto a Combat Hapkido thread and saying "it's not hapkido". Just the fact that he states that he's seen a fair amount of clinching in CH shows how little he really knows about CH. We have clinching techniques but it is by no means as concentrated on as in MMA. Just like any other technique it's there "if you need it." I feel sorry for traditionalists that don't train in this situation in case it ever does happen.

And I'm not saying that this situation is "equal" as you put it. Just that people that want segregation shows a certain bigotry that this forum can do without.

[JimH]

I am sorry for any intent that anyone read into my post,it had no intent,as happens on all forums of written content ,the reader implies their own intent.

If it were a verbal conversation then intent is better understood,but written is in themind of the reader.

I am aware of the spelling of Master Wollmershauser,and have used it here and other forums before,I intended to correct that,since it is not easily remembered as Master smith or jones it was written quickly and was meant to have a follow up, but failed,sorry.

So now Master Wollmershauser gave GMP an honorary 2nd as well,since it was posted here before that he gave him an honorary first.Did GM Myung also promote him to Master level Honorarily? Did GM Myung bring ,now,GMP around as his assistant instructor becasue he had no skill and was an honorary Everything in Hapkido?

GM Wollmershauser claimed GMP as his student,and GMP claims him as his teacher.Do Masters put their names on Honorary Black Belts and let them represent their teachings if the honorary students hapkido is non existent or sucks?(as is claimed by many of GMPs rise through Hapkido)

As far as GM Bong Soo Han,I did not attack him or his Hapkido,I said his videos were garbage as far as the hapkido content,the video series is more tae kwon do ish.( I did not bash GM Han,so as far as my comment on helping instead of bashing,I think I just clarified my remark and it is in accordance with my statement)

It amuses me to read the single points various people find in my post yet those of us in CH endure misspelled names of GMP .We are told our art is non existent as he has no Hapkido training.We are told it is all comercial and of no Hapkido substance.We are told that becasue Myung was his teacher,Myung was not under choi,so for CH to have low kicks is not true to Myungs teachings,yet they are to choi's( I guess to know that high kicks do not work in real street situations requires a founders spark or initiation) We hear stories of Hapkido Masters attending his seminars and bringing him outside to bang his head off the wall for teaching bad hapkido.It is amusing that even after trying to clarify what CH teaches post calling for us to be seperated from THKD discussion is brought up.

Again there are several posts on this board as to situations and what should or could be done and I see very few THKD people having input,perhaps many are not taught situational responses,just static attacks with no awareness around the real use of the art,or perhaps,they have no clue as what to do.

In the CH school I attend we train awareness,avoidance,dialouge,confrontation and escape.

I have been in THKD schools that teach the react to the grab only,nothing more.

I have seen schools of TKD that claim to teach Hapkido as well,and teach break aways and basic moves and tell students they have a Black Belt in Both TKD and Hapkido when they get their TKD first degree.

I have seen TKD schools in which nothing more than TKD is taught yet the signs to draw students claim,hapkido,judo,jujitsu,kung fu and weapons.

I am not a novice to the arts or to Hapkido,I have THKD training under GM Ik Jo Kang and his instructors,GM Chin Il Chang and GM Lee,My current teacher Master Medina has a 6th Degree in CH was a Black Belt Instructor under Myung,a 6th Degree in TKD and a Black Belt in Aiki Jitsu so when I post should I clarify which school of Hapkido I am writing from,THKD or CH .

Should those training under fake Hapkido instructors who have no HKD training but train under a guy who learned some moves to add to his TKD enrollment so indicate that they think they are learning Hapkido?

How many subdivisions of hapkido would be acceptable to the traditionalists?

Again I ask, why can we not just post as people with a common root art and help each other with situations and training as opposed to ripping each other apart.

[JimH]

Over 6,000 views on 189 posts,people are interested in something here.

[doshim]

As far as GM Bong Soo Han,I did not attack him or his Hapkido,I said his videos were garbage as far as the hapkido content,the video series is more tae kwon do ish.( I did not bash GM Han,so as far as my comment on helping instead of bashing,I think I just clarified my remark and it is in accordance with my statement)
Mr H.,

You’re right. Your comment regarding a legendary Hapkido Grand Master, “his videos were garbage as far as the hapkido content” does not seem derogatory. My mistake.

Listen, I know these boards get heated. Everyone has an opinion and I enjoy hearing all of them. That's what an open forum is all about. But, there was absolutely no reason to tear someone else down to make your point.

[American HKD]

Yeah, I'll admit I posted in anger. But frankly I'm just sick of some people coming onto a Combat Hapkido thread and saying "it's not hapkido". Just the fact that he states that he's seen a fair amount of clinching in CH shows how little he really knows about CH. We have clinching techniques but it is by no means as concentrated on as in MMA. Just like any other technique it's there "if you need it." I feel sorry for traditionalists that don't train in this situation in case it ever does happen.

And I'm not saying that this situation is "equal" as you put it. Just that people that want segregation shows a certain bigotry that this forum can do without.

Greetings,

I always learned and teach clinching defense techs, ssrieum Korean wrestling, Yudo defense, from grabs, etc.

All of the above are similar to clinching or adaptable in a flash.

It's all there IMO.

[American HKD]

Greetings,

JimH mentioned lack of situational training in THKD and I agree. I was first taught the "classical" way only, by the time I was 2nd dan in 1986 I realized that was missing.

As the Asst. Instr. at my school I started to implementing situational training drills. My teacher didn't really like it but I did it anyway with the brown belts and above.

I have alway trained that way for the last 18 years before anyone ever heard of CH or JP.

I just felt like a progressive thinking Instr. but I didn't think I reinvented HKD or create a more relistic style. All any THKD student has to do is learn to apply the techniques.

Just food for thought.

[Dr.Syn]

Over 6,000 views on 189 posts,people are interested in something here.

I hear ya..Great reading..

[JimH]

I also trained scenarios and applied tactical application and realism back in 1973 with Kyoshi Frank Ryan.

Later,the 80s, I had the opportunity to train with Master Johnny Kuhl who was so into scenarios that he had a full bar,with breakable,theatrical bottles,bar stools and everything in his dojo.

No one in recent times is inventing anything new they are just bringing back old ,so called outdated training methods and calling it new because it has not been used in 20 years.

Many schools got away from that training due to injuries and insurance rates on the rise.

Reality training was being done in the 60s and 70s then it died out because it was too tough,now it is back because tough training allows you to handle yourself in the street and or in contests,if you desire.

Anyone who wants to see how to create pressure and reality in training needs to get Moni Aiziks soon to be realeased Level 5 Combat survival Commando krav maga,if you are into Hapkido ,and don't mind looking at similar training options,you will see the vast similarities of techniques ,there is a section called "surprise attacks" and it is the best video recreation of upping the realism of intensity to allow students to function and work well on the streets I have seen done yet,(on DVD or video).
(I have done many of these drills but have not seen them demonstarted for the public on DVD or video,you will see what realism is,if you have only ever done static training you will be surprised)

Many talk about realism and intensity but this guy has captured it for all to see and try,if desired.

Articles tell you but this shows you and ,as said,the material is Jujitsu based so you see the Hapkido usage immediately.

Again realism has been around,but not done of late,CH and other arts are calling attention to its need and reintroduction but they have not claimed to have invented the wheel,nothing is truly new it is just coming back around.

[JimH]

Doshim,
Again,I did not tear down anyone to make my point.

GM Han is a Pioneer in Hapkido in the US,Billy Jack put hapkido on the map.

I did not say anything about GM Han.

I said his videos were Garbage,if that is derogatory then so be it,but his Hapkido and his students Great technique is not portrayed on his video series,it is portrayed, and excellently ,in his anniversary video,now that is true technique oriented Hapkido.

I have many Masters ,Hapkido ,videos and many are lacking true hapkido content,many are similar and offer more TKD than hapkido,maybe keeping it a secret.

Sorry if you find my remarks on the videos unpleasant but it is my opinion,and I am entitled to such,but again ,I did not insult GM Han,just a product.
(if I say Bill Wallaces Leg stretcher does not work should Wallace students and fans say I attacked him,a product does not always portray the Best in the person.)

[doshim]

Taken from you original post:

I have viewed GM Bong Soo Hans tape set and it is garbage as far as Hapkido goes and is more TKD and fails in comparison to GMPs Tape sets.

Not to belabor the point, but you seem to be rationalizing a personal attack. Those tapes are not a product akin to a leg stretcher. What is displayed on those tapes is what is taught by GM Han. Throws, joint locks, take downs, etc... and, yes, a lot of kicks. But, TKD? No.

It is obvious that you feel that the Hapkido displayed on those tapes is inferior to GMP's tapes. That's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just feel very strongly that when you bring someone's name into a thread and label their efforts "garbage" and use it as a measuring stick to illustrate your opinion, it comes off as inflammatory.

[Jungkihapkido]

Over 6,000 views on 189 posts,people are interested in something here.


The interest is not in CH as you are implying it is in the conflict that you are developing! :)

[American HKD]

Again realism has been around,but not done of late,CH and other arts are calling attention to its need and reintroduction but they have not claimed to have invented the wheel,nothing is truly new it is just coming back around.


Greetings,

Jim this so called new trend happens to be one my pet peeves.

All MA is for Combat, War, SD, etc.

To put the word "Reality or Combat" in front of any MA and called it a "New Method" or "Geared for todays Street" etc., really gets to me. I feel it's so riddiculus.

You mentioned Moni Azik I saw his preveiws on line and your right it's HKD/JJ etc. My point is he's doing nothing different than we do all the time in my classes but the masses eat this stuff up like it's going out of style.

THKD is Combat Hapkido & All the Reality based crap Already!

The masses are asses! :bang:

BTW I have a friend who a MA Instr. in Israel and is a BB in Karav Maga they all laugh at the Karav off shoots marketed over here because these guys are a dime a dozen in Israel and nobody pays attention to them. But every everyone over here eats it all up becuase they must be great so tough, so combat hardened being in the Israeli Army and stuff.

It's really funny.

[Shihan]

Greetings,

JimH mentioned lack of situational training in THKD and I agree. I was first taught the "classical" way only, by the time I was 2nd dan in 1986 I realized that was missing.

As the Asst. Instr. at my school I started to implementing situational training drills. My teacher didn't really like it but I did it anyway with the brown belts and above.

I have alway trained that way for the last 18 years before anyone ever heard of CH or JP.

I just felt like a progressive thinking Instr. but I didn't think I reinvented HKD or create a more relistic style. All any THKD student has to do is learn to apply the techniques.

Just food for thought.

I personally don't think you're giving yourself enough credit sir. IMHO, any instructor that sees a limitation in the instruction given and modify it to create a more realistic approach to fighting/SD goes not only beyond his master, but the true intent of the originator. And that is to evolve the art to it's highest level. One day, one of your students will take it to the next level just as you did.

[Shihan]

BTW I have a friend who a MA Instr. in Israel and is a BB in Karav Maga they all laugh at the Karav off shoots marketed over here because these guys are a dime a dozen in Israel and nobody pays attention to them. But every everyone over here eats it all up becuase they must be great so tough, so combat hardened being in the Israeli Army and stuff.

It's really funny.

I agree AmerHKD.

To the masses, they don't know better. That what marketing is all about; bring a new product to the uneducated masses and making it look like the reinvention of the wheel. Only dedicated practitioners can decipher the BS from the rest.

[American HKD]

I personally don't think you're giving yourself enough credit sir. IMHO, any instructor that sees a limitation in the instruction given and modify it to create a more realistic approach to fighting/SD goes not only beyond his master, but the true intent of the originator. And that is to evolve the art to it's highest level. One day, one of your students will take it to the next level just as you did.

Greetings,

Thank you, I hear what you're saying and see it very differently.

1. The techniques of HKD go back at least 800 years, time tested in many many battles way beyond my 25 Years in the system.

2. I modified nothing!

3. I teach in a traditional way showing practical applications of the classical techniques. (Anyone can do that if they think!)

So I see myself as just a good Instructor not an inovator in the least. I believe teach what the art was meant for. If other Instr. fail to see that and don't teach practical applications they're doing a disservice to thier students.

[American HKD]

I agree AmerHKD.

To the masses, they don't know better. That what marketing is all about; bring a new product to the uneducated masses and making it look like the reinvention of the wheel. Only dedicated practitioners can decipher the BS from the rest.

Greetings

The marketing is the problem IMO not the help or maybe it's two fold.

Also most of the reality systems today or combat methods and stuff comming out of Israel are pretty simple gross motors skills at best.

Block, punch, punch, punch, knee, knee, knee, elbow, elbow, elbow, maybe get in a nice bite with a eye gouge, maybe learn one wrist lock. It's good for the military or a quick SD class. They also use the same response for knife, gun, or stick.

I don't realy call that a MA system or style, just basic SD training.

And this is what people think is superior to a trained MA because of marketing, I disaggree

[mike-IHF]

Jon Davis,



Not to belabor the point, but you seem to be rationalizing a personal attack. Those tapes are not a product akin to a leg stretcher. What is displayed on those tapes is what is taught by GM Han. Throws, joint locks, take downs, etc... and, yes, a lot of kicks. But, TKD? No.

I agree with you. Bong Soo Han is a great man. Infact, I believed I mentioned to you before that our GM Chang Young-Shil trained with Bong Soo Han in Korea. And they taught together on military bases, before GM Han came to the U.S. Infact, regarding Hapkido kicks, I would have to say that he is among the best at it. His spinning heel kick was/is incredible. Infact I heard a story that GM Han taught Chuck Norris how to do that kick correctly. Chuck learned it the way alot of Taekwondo people do, where the kick comes around in a cresent shape. Where the Hapkido way is to come straight across. But, I have never seen any similarities to taekwondo kicks at all.

The interest is not in CH as you are implying it is in the conflict that you are developing!

Todd,
That's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about in my original post.

[JimH]

Doshim,I agree I used my opinion of GM Hans video series to make a point,that GMPs material is better and is more Hapkido based,again my opinion.

If I were on a JKD forum and was talking about instructional videos on JKD I could say that Compared to Beasley's work ,Inosantos tapes are lacking and Gary Dill's are garbage,does that mean that I find any of the instructors ,themselves ,lacking ?No,it means as far as their tapes go they have not come across as well as they should or the material on the tapes was not up to par.
Again if you find it inflammatory so be it.

Jungi,you imply that the controversy I created resulted in over 6,000 views,wow,Thank You.

I think there has been much discussion and controversy on other threads but none seem to generate 6,000 views.

So you do not think the topic itself ,combat hapkido,has generated the discussion?
.................................................. ........
As GMP has said he used the words Combat Hapkido to get people to know that hapkido is a combat art,not a sport and not used in contests.

Many of the public see hapkido as an off shoot of TKD or the same as aikido.

Combat hapkido is a marketing draw and the reduction of high throws and high kicks makes it more user friendly to a larger audience and also makes it more street combat,self defense usable.

If you look at Practical Aikido by Koka(spelling?) Sensei you will see a street usable form of Aikido that is also similar to hapkido,cambat hapkido.

I agree all Martial arts are or were at one time for Combat,thus the term Martial( military ,combat ) but we in the art know this already,the vast public do not,especially today when many have no military interest,but they do have an interest in Self Defense to an extent ,they want to save their own butts.

This use of the words Reality,combat,MMA are all used as draws for an uneducated public.

If you couple the terms to draw the public, and you make it so they do not have to have a uniform,they do not bow to a foreign flag,they do not have to envision the instructor as being better than they,no forms,no drill just pure training that allows them to walk out after one session and feel they learned something,that is the draw for todays,instant gratification society and the draw of comatives,combat survival,reality based systems.

I,myself,have no problem with the terms as they define and educate a public.

The truth is that many of the more popular self defense ,Combat arts,Reaity Based systems are based on Hapkido,jujutsu principles.
examples are,Fairbairns and sykes Materials called Combatives,then you have Underwoods WWII Defndo/u,then we can go to todays Modern Defendo and wolfe's system which is pure Hapkido with a revised catch name.If you see Moni aiziks combat survival,Commando Krav Maga,it is Hapkido/jujutsu.Gary Paynes RBSD is Hapkido.Much of what is being marketed as RBSD or combat is Hapkido ,jujutsu based.Some is different like wagner,Dimitri,blauer,hock,mann
If we talk combatives then we have Nelson,cestari,grasso,mcCann.
The list for all specific groups can go on and on.

People today want to learn personal combat ,they do not want an art,they do not want to spend years,they want it all NOW,Today.

Again,nothing is new out there,maybe a move like the shredder or the SPEAR,but if we look it is a form of adaption of something that has been out there for years or centuries,in many cases,but the curent application makes it different..

Reality/Combat means to Fight as you would on the street or on a battlefield and I think,as said,most arts have been ,and were done ,this way for ages.

Nothing new just the same wheel going around,maybe with a newer/different finish then has been seen in recent times.

[mike-IHF]

JimH,

Doshim,I agree I used my opinion of GM Hans video series to make a point,that GMPs material is better and is more Hapkido based,again my opinion.

Are you serious. You mean to tell me that someone like Bong soo-Han, who was training in Hapkido when GMP was in grade school is less Hapkido based? That is funny. I'm sure GM Han would love to hear that one.

Combat hapkido is a marketing draw and the reduction of high throws and high kicks makes it more user friendly to a larger audience and also makes it more street combat,self defense usable.

I find this debateable. Considering an average CH practitioner that follows the video tapes and attends, a few seminars every year. They are not spending anywhere near the amount of mat time as someone who trains 2-3 hours a day 5 days a week. So which person do you think is going to have more muscle memory/ reflex of technique if a situation did occur? So I find the statement "more combat", more street effective sad.

This use of the words Reality,combat,MMA are all used as draws for an uneducated public.

So basically the marketing of CH takes advantage of people that don't know any better. There are words for that you know. Propaganda for one. Do you think that what the north Korean kids are being taught is ok? about how the U.S started the war, and raped, killed innocent people. Those kids don't know any better. I'm glad people like GMP, and others sleep good at night knowing there marketing scemes take advantage of uneducated people.

I,myself,have no problem with the terms as they define and educate a public.

NO, it's not educating anyone! it's making people more incapable of thinking for themselves.

[Shihan]

Greetings,

Thank you, I hear what you're saying and see it very differently.

1. The techniques of HKD go back at least 800 years, time tested in many many battles way beyond my 25 Years in the system.

2. I modified nothing!

3. I teach in a traditional way showing practical applications of the classical techniques. (Anyone can do that if they think!)

So I see myself as just a good Instructor not an inovator in the least. I believe teach what the art was meant for. If other Instr. fail to see that and don't teach practical applications they're doing a disservice to thier students.


Man has evolved over millions of years. Cars, clothing, technology has all grown and changed. Why is it that martial arts can't? I disagree sir. I think you added 25 years to the already 800+ year tradition. And I don't think there's nothing wrong with that. God forbid if you became physically disabled, lost a arm or leg, I'm sure you would modify your training. And anyone with the same disability would want to train with a man that could make such adjustments. I think anytime we learn ANYTHING and we teach it to others, we also give a little bit of ourselves. And I doubt your students don't see you as a innovator. :D

[JimH]

Hello Mike,have you actually read what has been written or are you working on speed reading ,picking up key words.

The discussion of Bong Soo Han and GMP has nothing to with there Hapkido skill,it is, and was, about my reference to Bong Soo Hans Video series,white to Black belt,versus GMP CH video series white to Black Belt.

I do not know if any ,even Doshim, have viewed both series,I have as well as many other hapkido masters series.

For Bong Soo Hans skill,his video series is lacking and is very basic for a series to bring you to Black Belt.

GMP,CH,video series is way better and has More Hapkido tachniques and they progress through the series not stay basic.

Now if you have not seen both or either video series then I guess you have no bench mark with which to respond.

Your response that the average CH practioner watches a video and attends a seminar and has less mat time is totally WRONG .CH has many schools in many countries and through out the US,in the New Jersey,Connecticut, New York area there are around 15- 20 schools alone.

If you think the use of words like Combat and Reality take advantage of an uneducated public rather than tells them what they can expect then I guess that is your belief.

I guess I would rather have a clue as to what I was studing than pay a fee or sign a contract to a Master that is worried about the number of students and has no time to teach ,which is not uncommon and is even talked of in another section on this board.

Walk up to Joe Blow on the street and ask him what Hapkido is?

In 40 years of Hapkido being in the US the majority have no clue and many other martial artists have no clue,but ask some one what Krav Maga or tKD are and a Good Majority know.Keep it a secret or let it grow, CH is growing.Is traditional Hapkido? I know a few 9th degrees who have no students and no schools,but I know a number of CH Black Belts with schools and students.

Be on the side of the marketing or be left behind.

Educate the public as to what you offer or keep it a secret that dies in the dark.

[MaxG]

JimH,
Are you serious. You mean to tell me that someone like Bong soo-Han, who was training in Hapkido when GMP was in grade school is less Hapkido based? That is funny. I'm sure GM Han would love to hear that one.

Geeze man, he's already clarified he's talking about the tapes. THE TAPES not the man. I have the Bong Soo Han series too and he's right. There is way way way too much kicking on them. If you compared the GMP tapes to the BSH tapes minute by minute you would find that content wise GMP spent alot more time doing the joint locking techniques that Hapkido is known for then BSH did.


I find this debateable. Considering an average CH practitioner that follows the video tapes and attends, a few seminars every year. They are not spending anywhere near the amount of mat time as someone who trains 2-3 hours a day 5 days a week. So which person do you think is going to have more muscle memory/ reflex of technique if a situation did occur? So I find the statement "more combat", more street effective sad.

Sigh, again showing you know nothing about CH. There are plenty of CH practitioners that go the amount of time you mentioned, myself included. CH and THK just like any martial art is composed of practitioners of all types. Some that go 2-3 times a week some that go every day. You're flat out lying if you state that all your students go the amount of time you mentioned. You're trying to rationalize your belittlement of CH by making up false stats now.


NO, it's not educating anyone! it's making people more incapable of thinking for themselves.

But I suppose everyone should listen to YOU. Right? Because YOU know the truth. YOU can set them on the path to enlightenment right? YOU can think for them and tell them what is real hapkido right? :rolleyes:

[JimH]

Good points MaxG.

Just for clarification:
Bong Soo Hans Video series was intended to be a home study course for students to go from white to Black belt and send a video of each belt level and wait for the response from GM Han as to the outcome of their promotion.
I do not dare venture to how many mat hours those students of the home study have?

Since seminars,video training and Mat time were brought up,not by me:

How many days a year does GM Han spend traveling to his students to do seminars ,to allow those who do not train at his school the opportunity to train with the GM?

GMP will be doing 40 days just from June 2005 to December 2005.

[hollywood1340]

I have to agree with Stuart. Thoseother two systems are not as out in the open as CH. I did find the websites quite funny anyway. I would like to propose an idea that there be a seperate section for CH. I personally feel, and I'm sure others do that CH is NOT Hapkido. And that these past threads on CH, have taken too much time away from discussing real Hapkido. I vote to the moderators, to have a seperate space for this. I also feel that it just leads to to many arguments between "traditional Hapkido Practitioners", and " Ch Practitioners". Any thoughts on this?

I'm sorry, I have to respond. This post not only shows disrepect, lack of understanding and the inablity to look for the things that bind us together as hapkidoian, but also that it seems you are so insecure to think we CHKD'ers somehow take away from your "True and pure" art. Now I know why I train in the ICHF.

[doshim]

Good points MaxG.

Just for clarification:
Bong Soo Hans Video series was intended to be a home study course for students to go from white to Black belt and send a video of each belt level and wait for the response from GM Han as to the outcome of their promotion.
I do not dare venture to how many mat hours those students of the home study have?

Since seminars,video training and Mat time were brought up,not by me:

How many days a year does GM Han spend traveling to his students to do seminars ,to allow those who do not train at his school the opportunity to train with the GM?

GMP will be doing 40 days just from June 2005 to December 2005.

Mr H.,

I’m assuming these questions were directed toward me, so I’ll do my best to answer them.

Grand Master Han views his instructional tapes/DVD’s as supplemental training to students here at our headquarters as well as our affiliate schools.

An attempt was made several years back with a home study course in correlation with the videotapes. It was too difficult for reasons that should be evident. All of our affiliate instructors and students make training trips to the headquarters and use the tapes as a reference.

It is unfortunate that Grand Master Han cannot travel more often. All of his affiliate school instructors have been certified and teach the exact same curriculum that is taught at the headquarters in Los Angeles.

I hope that answered some of your questions. My apologies for taking such a defensive posture, but it seems as if you are drawing me into a “My Master is better than your Master” diatribe. I certainly did not, nor will I ever, utter a single bad word toward any Grand Master of any art.

[American HKD]

Man has evolved over millions of years. Cars, clothing, technology has all grown and changed. Why is it that martial arts can't? I disagree sir. I think you added 25 years to the already 800+ year tradition. And I don't think there's nothing wrong with that. God forbid if you became physically disabled, lost a arm or leg, I'm sure you would modify your training. And anyone with the same disability would want to train with a man that could make such adjustments. I think anytime we learn ANYTHING and we teach it to others, we also give a little bit of ourselves. And I doubt your students don't see you as a innovator. :D


Thank you again, I see your point.

[mike-IHF]

JimH,

Like I said before. I will not join in this topic anymore, since it is a no win situation for both of us. You have your point of view, and so do I. I will answer some of your comments before I leave the discussion.

Hello Mike,have you actually read what has been written or are you working on speed reading ,picking up key words.

The discussion of Bong Soo Han and GMP has nothing to with there Hapkido skill,it is, and was, about my reference to Bong Soo Hans Video series,white to Black belt,versus GMP CH video series white to Black Belt.

You might not have intended it to be directed at Bong-Soo-Han's skill. But fact of the matter is that it was. To say, the kicking on the video looks like Taekwondo, or that somehow in your mind GMP shows that he has more Hapkido based material is just wrong in my book. But, that is my opinion.

Your response that the average CH practioner watches a video and attends a seminar and has less mat time is totally WRONG .CH has many schools in many countries and through out the US,in the New Jersey,Connecticut, New York area there are around 15- 20 schools alone.

You might be right. However, I was not saying that all CH practitioners go through progression the same way. And I know some TH instructors use similar methods. However, I believe there is more of an abundance in the CH community, than the TH community. One reason, which incidentaly was being discussed over on budoseek. Is that there is a lack of high ranking instructors in CH that have schools in the U.S. And that alot of the instructors that do have schools, are only 1st Dan's, or not even a Dan rank. These quote's were brought up by other CH practitioners, not me. So, maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, or they are wrong?

If you think the use of words like Combat and Reality take advantage of an uneducated public rather than tells them what they can expect then I guess that is your belief.

Yes, that is my belief. I don't believe by taging a label on something just to get people in the door, is right. It reminds me of that scene in the movie black sheep, with Chris Farley. The part where he was trying to sell the brake pads, and the guy said "but your product doesen't have a garantee on the box", and Chris farley said " if you want me to crap in a box, and mark it garanteed I will, I have the time". Now, I do know that there are alot of other groups that do the same, and believe me I say the same to them.

I guess I would rather have a clue as to what I was studing than pay a fee or sign a contract to a Master that is worried about the number of students and has no time to teach ,which is not uncommon and is even talked of in another section on this board.

Your right, that is a common problem. I agree. That's why I feel lucky to be with the group I'm with. But, not all TH Instructors are this way. That might have been your experience, which may have caused you to look elsewhere.

Hollywood,

I'm sorry, I have to respond. This post not only shows disrepect, lack of understanding and the inablity to look for the things that bind us together as hapkidoian, but also that it seems you are so insecure to think we CHKD'ers somehow take away from your "True and pure" art. Now I know why I train in the ICHF.

No, I don't feel CHKD'ers take away from Hapkido. My point in my original post was not to disrespect anyone. I was just saying, that it would be a good idea because of the obvious problems as seen here. And, even if CH is rooted in TH does not make it TH. Just becuse it walks like a duck, doesen't make it a duck. If things were added, or taken away from the material originally learned by GMP, wether for better intentions or not, it is not the same. Kuk Sool Won is rooted in Hapkido, so is Hwrang Do. But do people consider it Hapkido? the answer is NO! why? because those masters/GM's took things out, or added things to the original system. So, why should I feel any different with CH? just because it still uses the word Hapkido in the name? I think not.

I do feel this as been blown out of proportion. I do however feel that I did not disrespect anyone. If I did then I appoligise. But, I am a TH practitioner/teacher. And I am very passionate about what I teach. So, if I came off rude that is my falt. I do wish you all luck with what you do, even if I don't agree with it. Take care.

[Dr.Syn]

One thing I like about Comabt Hapkido is the way GM P and most of his students refuse to engage in discussion that put down other arts, esepcially other Hapkido kwans

You are 100% correct..In the dozen or so seminars that I've attended I have NEVER heard anyone attached with the ICHF or GMP himself say anything negative about any other style..

[hollywood1340]

Thank you for the polite response :) Am I correct in seeing you see TH as the only hapkido? To call it a branch of hapkido, would that be appropriate? Look at the many different TH versions throughout the world and associations? How are they not or TH? Just curious. Again, it's discussions like these that allow us to grow.

[nj_howard]

Could I pose a question here?

With respect to the issue of Combat Hapkido not being traditional Hapkido, isn't it true that Mr Pellegrini himself states clearly that it is not traditional Hapkido?

Just one more thought... a couple of people above mentioned that CHKD people don't put down other styles of Hapkido or other martial arts. My experience is that this is correct (btw, I train in a VERY traditional style of Hapkido). We had a couple of CHKD guys who trained sporadically with us for a few months. They were completely respectful of our style. Not only that, I never heard them talk trash about any other martial art or martial artist, FWIW.

OK, back to my foxhole...

[mike-IHF]

Hollywood,

Thank you for the polite response Am I correct in seeing you see TH as the only hapkido? To call it a branch of hapkido, would that be appropriate? Look at the many different TH versions throughout the world and associations? How are they not or TH? Just curious. Again, it's discussions like these that allow us to grow.

To answer your questions, please keep in mind my answers are my opinion only. I know others may differ.

1:do I see TH as the only Hapkido?

Answer:In my opinion yes. One of the main points of TH is to follow the people before you to keep the tradition going. Now, of course people may teach material differently, because they are their own person, but they still teach the same material.

2:To call CH a branch of Hapkido, would that be appropriate?

Answer: No, not in my opinion. As I stated, it might be rooted in Hapkido, but because it does use aspects of other MA's. It makes it something else. Not saying less effective, just something new. Just like Kuk Sool Won, Hwrang Do as I mentioned in my last post. Kuk Sool Won, is basically Hapkido, with the mix of Chinese weapons etc. But to most it is not considered Hapkido.

3:Look at the many different TH versions throughout the world, How are they not or TH?

Answer: Well, I can only comment on the organizations that I know of. And for easy typing I'll stick with the major ones. KHF, IHF, Sin Moo, Jung Ki Kwan, Hapkiyusul under GM Kim, Kwang Sik-Myung, etc. There is alot more I could list, but it would take for ever. But, these are one's that I consider TH.

[Thomas]

Apologies in advance: seeing yet another "Combat Hapkido" thread turn into a flamefest has set me off.


There must be a full moon or something because it seems to be that time when a bunch of people come out and have a bash at Combat Hapkido, in everything from its name to its business practices, to how it can't possibly be any sort of "true hapkido" (what that it I don't know for sure... I bet we could get a few dozen definitions though.)

The sheer popularity of Combat Hapkido, as seen by its growing number of students and school has led to a lot of money coming into the Federation (which seems to offend many people... jealosy maybe?)... and that money has gone into strrengthening and making the organization stronger. Take a look sometime at the "specialists" we have on call, take a look at the video library and available resources. Not only does GM P commit the sin of making money but he doubles the sin by re-investing it in his system. That's gotta make some people just froth at the mouth.

Worst of all, by building a strong network (you can train in a Combat Hapkido school with the same curriculum/resources/requirements all with local add-ons all around the world), and by conducting seminars nearly every weekend of the month (including training soldiers, police and such of various countries)... GM P has shown himself to be a very in demand instructor... yes, in demand not only by Joe Public (which some people would use as derogatory even though it represents ourselves and our students) but by his peers... other masters and grandmasters oif various arts (including Hapkido). The various Halls of Fames he has been inducted in show this, especially the biggest of its kind: the Black Belt Magazine Hall of Fame induction as "2004 Instructor of the Year".

Sounds like a lot of people have an axe to grind. Too bad they couldn't put their energy into developing their art, sharing it and looking for ways to build and expand into a federation where the people take care of each other, learn and share freely, and get by without having to stoop to primary school name calling/back biting/ sniping/etc.

Got a problem with Combat Hapkido and its instructors/students? Come to a seminar... there's most likely one nearby, and check it out. The scariest part: No one there is going to care which kwan you come from or care who you studied under as long as you work hard, train hard, and share.

Now, can we get back to a concrete discussion on Combat Hapkido along lines such as:
- What we actually do in class
- Sample situations or techniques
- Neat ideas or things you've picked up
- "Double Impact" seminar discussions
- Drill ideas

You don't have to be "Combat Hapkido" to play... just be prepared to learn and share

[Shihan]

Hollywood,



To answer your questions, please keep in mind my answers are my opinion only. I know others may differ.

1:do I see TH as the only Hapkido?

Answer:In my opinion yes. One of the main points of TH is to follow the people before you to keep the tradition going. Now, of course people may teach material differently, because they are their own person, but they still teach the same material.

2:To call CH a branch of Hapkido, would that be appropriate?

Answer: No, not in my opinion. As I stated, it might be rooted in Hapkido, but because it does use aspects of other MA's. It makes it something else. Not saying less effective, just something new. Just like Kuk Sool Won, Hwrang Do as I mentioned in my last post. Kuk Sool Won, is basically Hapkido, with the mix of Chinese weapons etc. But to most it is not considered Hapkido.

3:Look at the many different TH versions throughout the world, How are they not or TH?

Answer: Well, I can only comment on the organizations that I know of. And for easy typing I'll stick with the major ones. KHF, IHF, Sin Moo, Jung Ki Kwan, Hapkiyusul under GM Kim, Kwang Sik-Myung, etc. There is alot more I could list, but it would take for ever. But, these are one's that I consider TH.

I see and understand Mike's POV, and I do respect it. I personally perfer not to get in what's legit and what's not. I want to get into what works. And I think more people here feel the same way.

[nj_howard]

Thomas, you're the voice of reason as always... very nice post.

[JimH]

Quote:
Answer:" No, not in my opinion. As I stated, it might be rooted in Hapkido, but because it does use aspects of other MA's. It makes it something else. Not saying less effective, just something new. Just like Kuk Sool Won, Hwrang Do as I mentioned in my last post. Kuk Sool Won, is basically Hapkido, with the mix of Chinese weapons etc. But to most it is not considered Hapkido"

Did the addition of Tae Kyun Kicks,weapons and spirituality not make Ji Han Jae's Hapkido different than Choi's art of Daito Ryu Aiki Jutsu?

Who is the founder of Hapkido?
Who actually coined the term,Hapkido?
Choi or Ji Han Jae?
Who changed what and was this good for Hapkido or not?

Are people like Master Fariborz,Azhakh traditionalists,pioneers or outcasts?
Master Azhakh has created Hapkido Blend,which happens to include,Hapkido,Wing Chun,BJJ and FMA (sounds similar to CH??)

If we have masters of Kenpo,BJJ,FMA study and learn and then go on to teach hapkido,if they make additions of their original styles into hapkido,is it traditional or is it modified or is it some other art?

If the Gracies ,who are studying Hapkido,apply aspects of Hapkido to their BJJ ,is their BJJ altered and lessened?

Henry cho and other Tae Kwon Do instructors who first arrived in the US called their Art "Korean Karate",oh,oh are they Tae Kwon do men or Karate men?

It is not what you call it ,it where its roots are,CH roots are Hapkido,Hapkido roots are Aiki Jujutsu.

We all share the same history,so why argue it over and over,why not just help others understand the art,the moves,the techniques and its uses and allow them to be better artists and ready for the street,if that is what they want of the art.

[Thomas]

I just went to the seminar in Lake Placid featuring GM P and Master Frank Huff!!!! It was awesome. For details, check out my journal entry #99. It was great to see great people and to learn and share. I can't say enough good things about both instructors for the day!

Coming up in November we will have GM P at our school for an evening... anyone who wants to come, let me know!

[JimH]

Thomas,where might I find your journal entries?

[Thomas]

Thomas,where might I find your journal entries?
Click the "journal" icon at the top of the page (Where it has "Home Articles Calendar Forum Journal etc") and when you get there, scroll down the left side until you find "Thomas' Journal". There are about 100 entries.

I hope you enjoy the journal.. thanks for your interest. :)

[JimH]

Thomas,Thank you for the help.

[JimH]

Thomas,Congratulations on your promotion to 3rd Degree.

I always thought Nate was at least a Black Belt,good for him on getting his first degree,(he is also working hard in JKD)

[Thomas]

Thomas,Congratulations on your promotion to 3rd Degree.

Thank you. :D

[JimH]

Thomas ,I read through your entire journal and viewed your photo's,Great stuff.
We have crossed paths many times.

At the GMP and Master Meligrito seminar we sat at the table together for lunch,Mrs M was to my left then her Husband and the rest of you guys.

I know Master Gray and Mr and Mrs M for Years,we have been at the same table at many an awards dinner,one of the first I believe was WKUs Camelback Dinner in 2002.

We have also crossed paths at the Cane Masters together,the Action Martial arts Hall of Fame,on and on.

Did you go to BUDO hall of Fame?
(one of the pictures of GMP doing a technique looked like the room we were in at that show and dinner)

Are you going to Master Huff's clinic in October?

I am sure we will meet again soon,Tell Master Gray and Mr and Mrs M I said Hi.(they are all great People)
Jim from Master Medinas school

[Thomas]

Thanks for the nice comments and I'll pass your regards on. Hopefully next time we cross pathes, we'll get a chance to talk. I do plan on going to Master Huff's next month. (I didn't get to the BUDO one).
Thanks!

[Dr.Syn]

I just went to the seminar in Lake Placid featuring GM P and Master Frank Huff!!!! It was awesome. For details, check out my journal entry #99. It was great to see great people and to learn and share. I can't say enough good things about both instructors for the day!

Coming up in November we will have GM P at our school for an evening... anyone who wants to come, let me know!

GREAT!!!! I am going to New Jersey next month to renew my IPDTI instructor certificate..Master Huff informed me that there is a CH clinic about an hour away if I was interested, of course I'm interested..Don't for get the Regional Training Conference in Lexington KY which is the 3rd week of November, always a GREAT time...

[JimH]

I hope to meet some of you at the cinic.

Master Huff ,and his students, bring in a Great clinic and offer a Great experience,for a small fee you get to spend 3-4 hours with GMP and have a great time.

The Lexington event looks like a Great one again this Year with some Great Masters and events being Arranged.
GM Bill "Superfoot" Wallace
GM Mark Shuey"Cane Master"
Master Huff "Dan Bong Master"
Master Melegrito "FMA Master"
Master Rivas "Ground Survival"
Master Gridley "Anatomical Targeting"
and the 'Martial Arts Business Success Roundtable"

The Embassy Suites of Lexington is also one GREAT Place to stay in and to enjoy the events.

[Shihan]

With all this talk about seminars and clinics, I can't wait for the one in NJ with Master Huff. This will be my first clinic and I'll be attenting with JimH and our instructor. I'm sure it will be a great experience. :)

[Dr.Syn]

The Lexington event looks like a Great one again this Year with some Great Masters and events being Arranged.The Embassy Suites of Lexington is also one GREAT Place to stay in and to enjoy the event

Yes, Lexington is a GREAT time..Master Schneider does an excellent job of putting it all together..This will be my 3rd year attending and they keep getting better every year..

[Dr.Syn]

Did everybody see the curent issue of Black Belt magazine??? Grandmaster John Pellegrini was inducted into Black Belts Hall of Fame as Instructor of the Year..Outstanding.....If this is a repeat please excuse me..I sometime go for weeks without checking in...

[hapkidofighter]

I read through a few of the posts on this thread and thought id share what i think :)
To me- combat Hapkido seems effective and is an interesting spin on other styles of hapkido- but leaving out lots of high kicks and 'useless' techniques is counter productive IMO- Although maybe you wouldn't use a high jump spin kick in a street situation- but if your able to pull one off- that means your agility strength and balance are a lot better than the average person, which IMO, probably means that your low kicks will be a lot more devastating then that of the average persons. There have been plenty of times in my training when i have wondered how I would ever use some of the techniques i have been taught, only to see that they eventually strengthen other techniques that i learn.
Also, I noticed on the site- that throws and breakfalls are employed in a very limited matter. This to is something that seems odd to me. IMO, throwing someone is extremely effective, and learning how to roll and breakfall is not only beneficial to protecting yourself in a fight, but in many other cases (falling down stairs, off bikes, etc)
im sorry if all of this has already been said a bunch of times

[Thomas]

Your points are very good. The philosphy of reducing the number of striking varieties/throws/etc is more to "simplify" our arsenal, so that training time is spent mainly on that which will be high percentage responses by us. Practicing a smaller number of strikes, locks and throws and devloping them into variations and different entries helps students prefect the techniques quicker and then practice them more often than teaching a wider variety of stuff. In short it takes more time to learn all of the other "might work" stuff... time that could be spent on "what works".

Combat Hapkido is purposely built like that so that it can be further broken down and taught to military/ law enforcement/civilians who don't have time for several years of study or as an addition to an existing program. To learn Combat Hapkido as your own primary art, I would encourage adding in more elements, whether from other arts or from available ICHF programs (see the webiste's video library)

Now, with that said, that is a reflection of the core curriculum and schools are free to add on expanded coverage of what they choose. The core system tries to stay fiarly straight forward and effective and will accomodate whatever you add to it.

[JimH]

Combat Hapkido does have, and employs ,High kicks for training purposes,the main concentration though is on kicks from the navel down.

Agreed working high kicks develops a balance and flexibility skill,but high kicks alone do not strengthen the lower kicks.(different muscles are employed and activated,different advantages and disadvantages to each various level kicks)

If we train and employ mid to high level kicks all the time in training and we do not work on the close in attack,(which happens on the street),most students will go for the mid to high kick ,(out of habit) and the range is shortened and they blow their chance,when a downward kick to the knee,or a scoop or stop kick to the shin would have stopped the forward progress and allowed us to soften the opponent and go to work with our Hapkido skills of grabs,locks and throws.

In reality most encounters on the street,happen within punching or grabbing range,(unless the fight happens as a result of an altercation ,that starts in a bar or public area and moves to an agreed upon confrontation)so the first defense would be a low kick to stop the opponents advance.(unless you are Bill Wallace or another super(flexible) kicker,you are not going to pull off a high kick in punching range.
.....................................
Combat Hapkido does have ,and trains ,throws ,rolls and breakfalls,though many of the throws are adaptable to be able to be made by those with physical limitations.
Example, A person with a bad lower back would be crazy to try a lift/hoist and throw,(it would be crazy for a healthy person),the object is to get the opponent off and get him to the ground if possible,so bringing that person around rather than over is a great option.

It is surprising the number of Hapkidoists (traditional or otherwise) who after many years of training still cannot do a proper roll or breakfall,so the method of taking a person down without hoisting them benefits those who have a block, or fear, of being thrown.
We are all training hard, but with a level of compliance that allows us to go to work everyday.
(the high throws of the Aiki arts are what keeps most schools classes small,as we get older in the arts the kicks and throws and falls take their toll and we must develop alternatives,Combat Hapkido allows that)

[hapkidofighter]

We do not only practice high kicks at my dojang either, we practice them at all ranges. I suppose that I would choose combat Hapkido if I was in a rush to learn self defence, otherwise I'd like to learn every aspect of the art. One of our tennets states that hapkido is a life long persuit, and I belive that. So for myself, I'd like to learn every aspect possible of hapkido, then decide for my self what is effective and what I can use from the art for self defence purposes- rather than what someone else thinks is effective from the art- just my thoughts- im not trying to insult Combat Hapkido.

[Shihan]

We do not only practice high kicks at my dojang either, we practice them at all ranges. I suppose that I would choose combat Hapkido if I was in a rush to learn self defence, otherwise I'd like to learn every aspect of the art. One of our tennets states that hapkido is a life long persuit, and I belive that. So for myself, I'd like to learn every aspect possible of hapkido, then decide for my self what is effective and what I can use from the art for self defence purposes- rather than what someone else thinks is effective from the art- just my thoughts- im not trying to insult Combat Hapkido.


You have a very open mind Hapkidofighter. That is very refreshing to see here. Most traditionalists tend to look down on how we practice our form of hapkido. Being a person from a traditional background, I take great pleasure in learning CH. I find that they blend together well. Even which practicing CH, I incorporate of some of my THKD training ie: circular motion. And as Thomas said, Instructors can add to their core curriculum and expand on the training as they see fit. And I agree 100% with your statement. In the end you decide what is effective and what isn't when your life is on the line.

[JimH]

Hapkidofighter ,I do not feel you are insulting combat Hapkido, we are just having a discussion and exchanging ideas,no offense intended and none taken by anyone.
.................................................. .................................................. ....
There are many misconceptions of Combat Hapkido, and as a participant in it I feel it is up to the participants to have input to try and explain what it is we truly do and what the GM intended for the students to get from the Art.

Again,Combat Hapkido is Hapkido,it is not a shortened version,it has just been made usable ,by adaptation of technique,for a larger segment of the populace who do not fit the young able bodied practioner.

In what is called Traditional the High kicks and High throws are stressed and forced upon you,you must adapt to the moves,as time progresses (if you stay in the art) you find that you may then adapt your technique to fit you.
In Combat Hapkido you are provided the variations from the outset,you are not forced to make something work,you work within your strengths and weaknesses.

As said,in the combat Hapkido school I attend we are shown the High throws and the alternative methods,we are then allowed to choose what fits for us and our partners who may not be able to take a High throw for some reason.

Combat hapkido offers alternatives that fit and it is surprising the numbers of what many call Traditional hapkidoists we have on board ,as verified on this site
Thomas and Master Bob and myself for example.
In the school I attend we have an Instructor who comes from Traditional Hapkido,and we have about 15 students of which 7 come from traditional Hapkido backgrounds.
So something is attracting these people,I know that for several the alternatives to the high throws and kicks is a factor as they are getting older,(as we all are,lol).

We also have Judo players and jujitsu people who have ranking and who have attempted to make those high throws work on the street (for their jobs) and those moves do not work so well when environment,weather,non compliance and adrenaline are active participants,not found in the dojo/dojang.

As said I am attempting to clarify what Combat hapkido is about and I hope that if some are interested they will attend a seminar or clinic and see what it is for themselves and see the few adaptations and see that Combat Hapkido is Hapkido (not some thrown together art that claims a portion of a name).
If people would attend they would find friendly people eager to share an experience and people who are not afraid that they are competing for attention or they are supporting some one who maybe out to steal their students.You meet men and women who say when you are in town or I am in your town I will call up, and they do ,(As Master Huff and I just did a few days ago)and they come and support each other,they are a great Bunch of people who get along ,which is hard to find in many arts.

Here is a quick story:
A few years ago I saw an ad that Master Bob had run in black Belt magazine,I called him and asked him about the ad,about the responses he got,the turn over from inquiry to student ratio,the cost,he did not know me from adam and he gave me his time and insight,(which many others would not do even if you were in the same federation) we have since met at a few places and he ,and the many others are genuine friendly giving people,as is the GM.

Try us ,see us and what is offered,you may like us and stay,if not you will have made some friends,lol.

[Thomas]

Nice posts on this topic!!

We do not only practice high kicks at my dojang either, we practice them at all ranges. I suppose that I would choose combat Hapkido if I was in a rush to learn self defence, otherwise I'd like to learn every aspect of the art. One of our tennets states that hapkido is a life long persuit, and I belive that. So for myself, I'd like to learn every aspect possible of hapkido, then decide for my self what is effective and what I can use from the art for self defence purposes- rather than what someone else thinks is effective from the art- just my thoughts- im not trying to insult Combat Hapkido.
For me personally, studying martial arts is a life long pursuit... and from what I have seen and learned so far in Combat Hapkido, I can see that it will take a lifetime of studying the art and even then there will be more to learn. The core system of Combat Hapkido is Hapkido and the "bolt-on" systems just add infinite varieties and options of expressing the core Hapkido concepts in other ways... and that I decide for myself what to focus my studies on. I'd say we are in the same boat! :)

I am glad to see people asking questions about CH and looking to see what we are all about. Listening to its practitioners and working with them at seminars and schools is a great way of finding out what CH is. If someone goes to a seminar, for example, and tries it out and finds out they don't like it... I see nothing wrong with that.

Good training!

[TheGnome]

(Hello Thomas) I'd like to chime in here as being new to the CH system. I like the description of "bolt on" areas, and that has been a part of the program I have really enjoyed. I'll be able to continue devloping the skills I learned in Judo through the Ground Survival program, and the Combat Throws videos while being able to learn from others that are exploring their areas of interest such as stick, cane etc.. I also enjoy the fact that studying in other schools/arts is not only tolerated, but encouraged. I was fortunate enough in Sin Moo program to study under a highly ranked Judoka, but I know that is not always a possibility for some people in other arts.

[Hapkidoin P]

Hi guys,

What Thomas mentioned about the seminar scenario should be taken to heart. The best way to come to your own conclusions about CHKD (or any other art) would be to go see it and feel it for yourself.

I have had the pleasure of meeting some CHKD guys and gals at a couple of our seminars(not CHKD),and they were not afraid to be out there on the mat with the rest of us going at it.

When questioned,instead of spouting empty rhetoric,they were knowledgable about the "why's" and "how's" of technique. That says to me that somebody's doing a good job,both teaching and learning. That,to me,is what it's all about.

[Dave Boy]

Hi Guys,

I've read with interest all the above info regarding Combat Hapkido etc and was wondering if anyone can let me know if there is any in the UK?

In agreeing with both Thomas's and Paul's (Hapkidoin) posts, I've tried to attend as many seminars in the various HKD styles as possible, both in the UK and the US - if nothing else just to see what else is out there and to take a look at the different teaching methods etc. Combat HKD is one that my club hasn't managed yet - so any info would be welcomed.

Cheers,


Dave

[JimH]

Dave,
I know that GMP has done several seminars throughout Europe and several specifically in the UK.

If you are interested in Seminars in the UK,look at the website:

www.ichf.com

There you will find the seminars for the rest of 2005 and some of 2006.

If you are interested in instruction you can find contact information for GMP,email or phone, and he/they will help you out and get you to the right person.

All the Best

[Plato]

In my humble opinion, you left out Master Al Medina, Thomas ( I know this wasn't done on purpose). You might not personally know him, but in my short time training with him, I have come to respect and admire him as an Instructor and person. Everything that you said about the above Masters and Instructors also apply to him. And in my years of training, I don't know too many masters that would let themselves be the uke because of a shortage of partners. I can only hope to be as good as Master Medina and Kyosanim Jim H in the future.

There is so much good stuff written here! Well, Shihan, I haven't been at the dojang lately because of graduate school and all other responsibilties for the moment, but I'll be back in mid-December 2005 and all of January 2006. You and I have banged on the mat baby! Can you tell who this is?

Well Shihan, you're absolutely right about Master Medina and Kyosa Nim JimH - these fellows offer themselves as Ukes all the time - and that's what turned me on about the club - not just the flexibility of the CH curriculum. These guys go on the mat with you! We have great instructors! We train hard - as "real" as we can get (and you know I'm a ham about that), and have a good time doing it!

Talk about Master Medina being a technician? Where does he get this stuff? I mean - the man will make you cringed with pain if he were to go full power! Hey, what can I say? It's learning by doing. Feeling your partner out when applying technique and your partner will tell you if "it's there" or not. You know what I mean. No one get's too crazy, although there are some exceptions with new people- but that's normal.

When I first started in August 2004, that's all Kyosa Nim JimH did for me - be my Uke without ever wanting to train on his technique. In fact, I nudged him to do so. Anyway, I was the one (and still am) with two left feet. However, I think I got the circular footwork and downward-movement take-downs a little better.

Need to read this fantastic thread further and others as well. It's great learning while in between assignments in graduate school.

Cheers Shihan!


Plato

[Thomas]

Master Rivas' ICHF Ground Survival Program (3 DVDs )
I was looking at the ICHF website video catalog and saw this "ground survival program" listed. Does anyone have it or has anyone seen it?

I am wondering about the basic makeup of the program (what it covers) and how much it differs from the old "ground grappling" tapes (now gone). I thought Carlson Gracie, Jr. was working on some ground grappling material. Is he still doing it or has Matser Rivas taken over that department ("Ground survival vs Ground Grappling"?)

[JimH]

Hi Thomas,
I have not seen Master Rivas' new series yet.

I spoke to him and saw a bit of his material at last years Budo Hall Of Fame,what I saw was similar to the old material,but with 3 DVDs I am sure he expanded it alot.

As Far as Carlson making the DVDs I heard that they have been waiting for him to put it together but it was taking a long time and since the older series is now gone Master Rivas' put this product together for GMP.

I imagine we will have Carlson's series at some point in the future as well.(just a different perspective)

All The Best to you and all the ICHF people up your way

[JSun]

I'm going to attend a ICHF seminar this April for the first time. I'm looking forward to it and I'll be sure to share my experience and opinion of the class.