The Power of Chi

[Melanie]

This subject has recently come to my attention after being offered the opportunity to visit a Chi Expert in September.

I am definately going to attend as I think it may well be worth the experience and I would like the opportunity to make up my own mind about this area. However, I am having trouble finding any really in-depth or useful information about this on the 'net' or in the library. I was wondering if anyone on this forum may have some reference for me to look at or if possible first hand experience to impart.

Look forward to hearing more

[Pablo]

Try searching under Qi, or Qigong, or Taoist cultivation methods.


Also the online journal at :

http://www.qi-journal.com may have some useful links and articles.


paul

[Chazz]

Mel,
There is a great book out that works with breathing, meditation, and qi. Im reading it for the third time and i learn more every time through.
The Secrets of Superior Strength - Iron Body Ninja BY: Ashida Kim

check it out. Its a great book

-Chazz

[khafra]

Mantak Chia has also written some excellent books on the subject of qigong, and specializations within it such as iron shirt. If you're looking for martial applications of chi, try kyusho; I think there's still a forum on it around somewhere.

[Chazz]

I think you will enjoy the visit. I love learning about Qi. I just find it interesting on how it can be uesd to heal as well as hurt (Demok)

-Chazz

[Feiloong]

Melanie,
To get a very good understanding about Chi and Chi Kung, read the many books by dr Yang Zwing Ming www.ymaa.com on this subject. Also read a book by (I think it was written by) Leong Ting called skills of the vagabond, which clears up all those myths about chi. This would put you on the right track to have a better, researched understandign about chi kung.

There are many people who over complicate the topic and who tries to mystify it. Its not merely as complicated and XFilish as people makes it out to be. I posted a reply to someone elses quesiton in the tai chi forum. You can also read that.

Chazz, I very much doubt that chi actually have allot to do with dim mak. I do not know much about the subject, but I can imagine it as more to do with striking vital points like nerve endings and weak spots on the body. I for one (after being taught how to do all those funny chi kung tricks often seen at the shaolin monks performances) do not at all believe in 'mysterious chi"
only my opinion. good topic

[Melanie]

Thanks everyone.

I shall be hitting the local library this weekend and seeing what they have in. I recently brought this topic up with my Sensei, he seems to think that some 'chi' is suggestive, almost hypnotic. Feiloong, you seem to be the most doubtful so far about this subject. Is this reason given by my Sensei one of the reasons you doubt this? Have you ever tried to gage and use your 'chi'?

Melanie

[Feiloong]

Melanie,
I practice Kung Fu and Chi kung on a daily basis. I am not at all doubtfull on the effects and advantages of chi / chikung (please read my reply to a member in the tai chi section), I was merely trying to point you to an informed view, taking away the mystism and hocus pocus often associated with kung fu and chi.

I am the first to encourage anyone to balance external and internal practice, and as I say, I do encourage chi kung practice. I just think it is important to clear the mysterious, before enaging into something like this, which is clearly very scientifical.

If you get to read those books by dr Yang, you will have a better understanding of Chi. I found Mantac's books to be slightly more based on his religious objections, and less so to science as Dr Yangs books (although Mataks books are pretty informative).

May I ask, who is the Chi Kung Master whom you are planning to visit?

[Melanie]

Originally posted by Feiloong
Melanie,

May I ask, who is the Chi Kung Master whom you are planning to visit?

Yamaue Soke is visiting a dojo in Scotland in September this year. I'm not sure if its an open event but will obviously find out if your interested.

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression Feiloong, just curious about this subject. I have not seen this in 'action' so to speak as yet, so i guess this makes me the skeptic! :)

Is is hard to master? Some one said to me once that when you do you can hold your 'chi' in your hands and manipulate it to cause and effect.

I will get those books out you suggested - in a bid to question you about them next week! :D

Thanks for your help

Melanie

[Feiloong]

Melanie,
"Is is hard to master? Some one said to me once that when you do you can hold your 'chi' in your hands and manipulate it to cause and effect. "

Nothing is hard to master. Its all about efford and and mind set, and how hard you are willing to practice. As for holding chi in your hands, I am not to sure about that. I have seen on some old sci fi movies where people were able to shoot fireballs from their palms, but I dont know if that was chi. Think it was more something like "fire palm" :) :woo:

"I will get those books out you suggested - in a bid to question you about them next week! "

You wont be sorry.

Chi kung has no short cuts or immediate effects. It is a long process of constand training.

[Tseek Choi]

Mel,
Try reading something like "The Way of Energy" by Lam Kam Cheun.
He gives a nice insight to chi kung training.
Follow his book, and you won't be disappointed

To me chi is the essence of life itself.
It is the very energy within matter. Some might say it is electrical energy, this is true to some extent. But it is much more.
It is in the air all around you.
When you take a deep breath on a cold clear morning you can feel your body vitalised. This is Chi being drawn into you.

When you stand in a position like "embracing a tree" you can feel the Chi flowing through your body & limbs. Being drawn from the ground beneath you and from your suroundings.

When you strike you can focus your Chi to the part of the body you are using by your "Yi" (mind).
This process is controlled by your Spirit "Shen".
To produce power "Jing".

Without correct Chi development within martial art, a student can never reach their full potential.

I know little about how most Japanese practice Chi kung, but I used to train many years ago with Kanasawa in Shotokan, and he at the time was studying TaiJiQuan to develop his Chi.

Good luck!
Just stay away from anyone that claim to be able to knock people over from several feet away. ie Richard Mooney! They are frauds!!

TC............

[Pablo]

I am disappointed that a forum that has done such a good job of providing a fair representation of various ways of practicing the martial arts until now, would suddenly turn into a name calling forum. If you have a personal beef with Rich Mooney, why don't you take it up with him directly, instead of calling him a fraud behind his back?


Thank you

paul

[Melanie]

My apologies Pablo, this was not picked up earlier. I fortunately know of Rich Mooney and have developed my own opinions of him.

Melanie

[Freeform]

And I'll say... not a thing. I've experience to many 'weird' things to be dismissive of chi/ki, but in my personal experience its just a case of applying the correct body mechanics (or biomechanics as its been called).

And, I believe that Dim mak/Dimak/Demok is essentially attacking weak/vital/pressure points with the aim of latter learning to then develop your chi/ki/Qi to channel it into these 'simple' attacks/defences to create devastating results.

Thanx

[Greyghost]

My experiences with chi are as varied as freeforms.....one even involved a belly dancer.

It does exist..in what form i don't know.

lets hear some stories.......

[Tseek Choi]

Sorry pablo, if you are a Mooney cult member.
I have taken this matter up with Richard personally, as have many others.

Chi and it's development is a vast and wonderful area of research, but as with so many things you get people who take advantage of gullible people,
and feed their inflated ego's with fantasy.

Chi is real, this has not being disputed by me.

Sifu Richard Mooney has many genuine martial skills, this is also not disputed by me.

But he has been asked to prove his Li kong jin power in a scientific experiment many times, and has always failed to produce any results.

Much like the spoon bender Uri Geller, who was proven to be a fake on public television, yet people still believe he has "special" powers.

I do not want to get into a discussion here about this, I was purely saying to be careful of charlatans. If you believe in Richard Mooneys magic then good luck to you!

Instead of talking about this rubbish we should be discussing all the benefits that practicing chi kung, and the development of chi can bring to us in terms of health & martial skill.

TC.............

[Pablo]

If you have anything of substance to back up your implication that I am a cult member, I would love to hear it.
Since I am pretty sure that you do not, I would also love for you to share something a little more useful.
A discussion of the meaning of the old Qi radicals versus the newer ones might be a good place to start. I tend to lean towards the pressure side myself, and wonder if you would care to share an explanation of how the iliopsoas relates to that concept.
You know, the banners and flags from the Classics, and all that?

Looking forward to having your input.



paul

[Feiloong]

Gees,
this is beginning to look like KFO. Thought I'd came here to get away from the politics.

Dudes... Chill. Its only a forum

[Melanie]

Thank you Feiloong - well put.

Melanie

[Cooler]

We are here to discuss and share ideas and knowledge so lets keep it that way. If you have an opinion on something then by all means express it, but lets do it in an informed and intelligent manner.

Cooler.

[Tseek Choi]

Dear all,

My apologies if i've caused any negitivity.
All I was doing was expressing a concern that there are certain unscrupulous persons making claims that they can't backup.
But there is always one silly litte man that feels the need to believe in fantasy, Pablo is obviously the one on this forum.
I thought that maybe this forum would not have these ignorant people on them, however I see that where ever I turn I am confronted by fools & madmen!.
Again my apologies, I will in future keep my opinions to myself.


Pablo,
I thought a man of your mature years would no longer believe in Santa Claus!
It saddens me, no concerns me that you have any contact with law inforcement apart from getting locked up for narcotics abuse.
I suggest that you maybe pinch yourself. Because i'm sorry to tell you that we live in reality not in your fantasy world!

If you have any further comments to make to me then please PM me, as I don't really think the others here want or need to listen to your inane babble!

Good luck in your journey Bilbo, sorry Pablo.

[Andy Murray]

Hi Colin,

You have posted some really useful and interesting comments on this thread.

The previous post is/was/should be beneath you. I understand that you may feel a little 'ganged up' on, and attacked personally yourself, but don't take off into the jungle armed only with a combat knife.

You represent yourself, your art, and others who practice that art here!

Andy

[Thomas Vince]

Melanie,
Okay not alot of room can't write a story so here are some personal beleifs:
1. Everything has a "vibration" speed this creates density and mass.
2. There is an external and internal chi.
3. When chi is truly explained by science "if ever" it will have alot to do with the "magnetism" of our natural universe.
4. Resonance or vibration can be changed by the mind.
5. Come on princess Lea concentrate harder I can't get this damn X-wing outta the swamp.
Oh here comes the short green guy again, Oh my no, it can't be, yes it's, it's Andy!!!!!!

[Feiloong]

In Tseek Choy's defence, I must say that I also get pretty ticked off with the many people who try to let others think that their chi powers, could turn them into the Ubbermensch. But, having said that, as one member said, this is a forum where we share ideas. I always see it like this, we now have the oppertunity to to our part to help work out these missconseptions in a positive, informative way. If people still want to believe in super chi powers, then so be it. There will always be people who believe in this things, and I guess they have the right to be so naive. All we can do, is to try guide them into the right direction with as much (or as little) knowledge we have on the subject.

I know many people who believe that Copperfield really walked through the Wall of China, and who believe he could really fly. I cannot explain Copperfield with science, but basic physics tells me it musst be a trick.

I think there are many great chi masters who also read this forum, who might want to start helping us out here.

[Pablo]

I would be a little more tolerant of those who are calling people frauds, cultists, naive, etc. if it they could answer even the simplest beginner's question about Qi, such as the actual definition of the word.
I quite simply do not see the benefit of giving up practice time to engage in internet debate about someone who isn't even on this forum.
Anyone who actually believes that their MA skills will improve by gossiping on the internet is certainly welcome to continue. Just count me out.
:cool:

Thanks

paul

"Take away paradox from the thinker, and you have a professor"
Kierkegaard

[Andy Murray]

Pablo wrote;

the simplest beginner's question about Qi, such as the actual definition of the word.

OK, here is a question! Can anyone give a working definition of Qi, Chi or Ki?


Feiloong wrote;

I think there are many great chi masters who also read this forum, who might want to start helping us out here.

That would be great Feiloong, though I think between yourself and Pablo you could bring everyone into the same classroom with a liitle cooperation.

Pablo wrote;

A discussion of the meaning of the old Qi radicals versus the newer ones might be a good place to start. I tend to lean towards the pressure side myself, and wonder if you would care to share an explanation of how the iliopsoas relates to that concept.

You seem to have something specific in mind here Pablo. Something you read or were taught?

As someone who spends most of their time kicking the living Chi 'out' of people. I am always interested in how they cram it in there in the first place!

Please elucidate.

Andy

[Thomas Vince]

Yes I agree with Andy I would really like to read this to, please share Pablo, even if it is an opinion,I am sure somebody around here can set the record straight. Melanie, sheesh, see what you started.

[Feiloong]

Wow, and suddenly I am dragged into this.

Pablo, first of all, I know nothing about this Moonie guy, beside seeing some articles in the kung fu magazines, and reading the forums. To be honest, I really dont give a rats A$$ who writes and says what. I am not directly influenced by this, so why bother. My statement about "naive" people is one in broad. Having grown up in a martial arts family, I am secure enought about my martial ability, without having to spice it up with mysterious aspects like "so called chi prowes". I think I do know and understand Chi, and I can even explain it in scientifical terms, as I so often told the members to go read books by Dr Yang ZM or even other scientifical journals.

You said no one could even define the basic concept of chi. Why dont you just start the ball rolling? I think I have said enough about this. Chi is not as complex an issue as some might want to think.

Having said that, I read some of your other posts, and you too seem very mature and secure in your art. What style do you play?

Melanie, pardon me for asking :o You married?




(just kidding - Feiloons is a cyber flirt)

[Pablo]

I gave some references to Qi sites in the earlier thread, and they range from the metaphysical to the scientific. Whether magnetism, internal vibrations, or boiling cinnabar essences, it quickly beomes apparent that none of these things ARE Qi, they are just an attempt to describe how Qi behaves.
For my martial arts purposes (baguazhang), I view Qi as the way I can tell that I am performing with 'internal' power, instead of 'external' power.
There are physical exercises in the internal arts, such as squatting monkey, tien gung, serving teacups, silk reeling, pole shaking, dantien rotation, ball rolling, and standing post. If done correctly, (with Qi, instead of with Li) these should allow one to develop some of the basic building blocks that distinguish the internal arts from the external.
One of interesting things about these internal exercises is what they do to the musculature of the pelvic/dantien area. One of these muscles is the iliopsoas, and it seems that a tight ilipsoas is a major obstacle to developing internal power. When one is doing the exercises, or an internal form properly, the same checklist that 'keeps the Qi from flowing', also tells you if your iliopsoas is properly relaxed. The more that I study and practice, the more that I find that relaxed musculature 'feels' the same as 'Qi flowing'. These feelings are pretty hard to describe by e-mail, but when I recently read some material on the original way of writing Qi in Chinese, the definition had more to do with steam *under pressure*, than steam floating through the air (which is what a lot of modern people translate the Chinese character Qi as). For me, this was of personal significance, and I felt, helpful in my practice.
I do not find debating the merits of Mssrs. Mooney, Mantak, or Ming to be at all useful to my practice. If there are people who are getting some benefit from following the teachings of these folks, fine, but I am not interested in the debate part.

take care

paul

[Andy Murray]

Hi Pablo

Just to save us all hunting for our medical dictionaries or Latin phrase books, could you explain the normal bodily function of the iliopsoas. A working definition is ideal, as I know you are not a Physiologist!

Do you feel that Qi, Chi or Ki can be explained by standard physics?

Andy

[Sticky]

Iliopsoas.

That bad boy consists of three muscles (psoas major, psoas minor, and iliacus) in the pelvic region. The associated nerve supply originate in the lumbar (low) region of the spine.

Great, but what does that mean for the martial artist? In basic terms think of a typical "turning" kick, i.e. when striking 'round' an opponent to perhaps the side of the knee, abdomen or temple. Iliopsoas contracts to bring the hip round and the knee up into the chamber position (shown in figure 2 of "The turning kick" in the kicking section).

Picture a gentle 'lunge' style of movement, this would stretch Iliopsoas. I sourced and attached a typical diagram fron the 'net.

Sticky.

[Thomas Vince]

Pablo,
Is this the muscle located directly below the navel approximately two inches or so? Is this what the term "Hara" came from. Is this the same thing?
Never mind just saw the above post.

[Andy Murray]

Hey Sticky,

Just as well you stayed awake during Botany class you swot!

Andy

[Pablo]

That is the muscle, but instead of looking at what it powers, such as an external kick, look at what it connects. In order to 'Fill the Mingmen', which is an intruction from the Qi paradigm, we could also think about relaxing and 'lengthening' the iliopsoas.
This accomplishes a very interesting shift in pelvic and spinal alignment that helps (at least it helps me) with the openings and closings that the Classics talk about.
Some people learn to achieve demonstrable internal power by using the visualization of Qi and some people use purely physiological terms. If the results are the same, I don't reallly prefer one training method over the other.
Both of them are equally hard to communicate by e-mail.;)



thank you

paul

[Sticky]

Pablo.

Interestingly, we meet at a juncture where we have both ascended the mountain from two distinct paths to realise the same view. Indeed, to 'Fill the Mingmen' one could also think about relaxing and 'lengthening' the iliopsoas.

Yet, that same 'internal' notion you knowingly speak of, corresponds with my notion of the 'external' kick, and is in fact one and the same.

The shortening and inflexibility of iliopsoas can affect the spine in a particular manner (assuming equal shortening on both sides at first). By the stretching of iliopsoas, one helps to align the entire spine.

If iliopsoas is not as flexible as one would prefer, then the lower lumbar region of the spine is pulled forward. It is common sense then that the spine would, over time, adjust to this shortening by a biomechanical change in spinal curvature.

As Andy (I think it was yourself - I'll name drop you anyway as I trust you) has mentioned on another thread elsewhere, training on 'one good side' perhaps can have a bigger impact than would first appear.

Whatever language we choose to describe the function, that function remains as it is, with us trying our best to find words to best describe that function.

Gordon.

[Pablo]

Sticky wrote:

"...Whatever language we choose to describe the function, that function remains as it is, with us trying our best to find words to best describe that function..."

I like the way that Gordon puts this.


In order to get a little more detail on 'un-tightening' the psoas, I have found 'The Belly And Its Power' by Allan Saltzman to be helpful. It covers a lot about the entire dantien area, without going deeply into medical terminology, or relying on too much metaphysical lingo. It is available from Yogatools Press, or Amazon, etc. can get it.

FWIW

paul

[Greyghost]

Good god sticky.....where were you hiding that knowledge.

Keep up the good work


greyghost.:D

[Kat]

Hi
if you are interested in Chi/ internal stuff in general I would suggest to try it out from the Health side.

Find a good TCM practioner and have a consultation,massage treatment.Talk can only explain these things so far,you will gain some understanding by getting in and feelings your own bodies reaction to a course of treatment by a TCM practioner.This is probaly better value(for your body) then paying the usually exorberent costs of Qigong seminars.

Another suggestion if you particularly want to experience some cheap Qigong(excuse the pun) try your local Falun Da Fa group who will happily impart there exercises to you and try to sell Lis books.(please don't jump on me as to the rights and wrongs of Falun gong:rolleyes: )

If this impresses you then start looking into the MA side of it.

[PanZer Jester]

I just recently started learning the focusing of one's Chi. I do not do as good as I have a time or two... I also have started learning to use the third eye to sense Chi other than yours, but the distance that I can do this at is extremely extremely short (don't ask what it is... too imbarrasing:o ...). I realize that using visualization can help tremendously, but I am not that good at it... Please give me any tips you may have.