Grappling?

[jread]

For those of you who train in JKD, do you do any grappling? I figure that since JKD takes the best from all the styles, that grappling would be included.

I am thinking of joining a JKD school and am wanting to eventually compete in the local Texas MMA competitions. Most of those guys are taking BJJ and Muay Thai mixtures of some sort, so I wonder if JKD can compete with them. I'm not as curious about JKD competing as a standup art, but I do wonder if JKD students train enough in grappling to compete with BJJ guys.

Any input on this?

[Cyrax]

there is a jkd academy in the city next to mine...they train in jkd, muay thai, kali, grappling and ground....

[pug32]

the JKD ground comes mostly from BJJ but there is some other stuff also.

Can it compete? depends on who is fighting

[masterfinger]

Larry Hartsell is the head of the JKD Grappling Assoc., and he's been doing grappling (with the likes of Gene LeBell) since way before BJJ came onto the scene.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

he must be damn old then :D

[JKogas]

"Our" JKD contains grappling/ground and personally I think it's a critical issue. Our's is influenced by Brazilian jiu-jitsu. If whatever you're training in has components of such things as the guard, mount, cross-body/side control, etc., then you're doing what you need to do. So long as it's trained against resistance.


-John

[Jeet]

In our class we have Grappling from Kali, Silat, Shoot Wrestling, Jun Fan, and other grappling arts.We include hitting and trapping on the ground, choking, arm and leg locks, and takedowns from a standing position.

[Yukimushu]

Personally I know a school which also teach grappling along with another art combined together; but the grappling isn't taught as well as the school i go to which is dedicated to grappling. So i guess it all depends on the school and quality of the grappling tuition.

[JkdScott]

Grappling is "part" of JKD ie Bruce Used to grapple there is a few grappling techniques in the tao but he was moving into the research at the time of his death, JKD contains grappling from silat, kali (dumog), sambo, shooto, BJJ, Judo, Ju-Jistu
as said before Larry Hartsell took the grappling forward with his art, look at erik polson who is world shoot wrestling champ and JKD instructer under dan and he trains alot with Larry
My Instructer is autherised to teach under Larry and ive trained with larry on many occasions, he's forgotten more grappling moves than ill ever know
so yes a skilled JKD guy would stand a chance against a skilled BJJ guy i think from what ive seen of BJJ that its not too strong on striking, as the gracies always take the fight to the floor and when in a stand up fight they dont do too well???
but it might be there prep not the art??

[tel]

i do bjj,csw and dumog (filipino ma)
grappling has been part of jkd when BL trained with wally jay and gene lebell.
larry hartsell carried it on.erik paulson is the man now adding different grappling arts and vale tudo and called it combat submission wrestling

[ubermint]

Jread: You're in austin? You should try my school, www.austinjj.com

[archrival_keysi]

i do bjj,csw and dumog (filipino ma)
grappling has been part of jkd when BL trained with wally jay and gene lebell.
larry hartsell carried it on.erik paulson is the man now adding different grappling arts and vale tudo and called it combat submission wrestling


Same here tel with Keysi the grappling we cover is based around BJJ but we also cover silat, shoot and few others so yes grappling as part of JKD as this way all ranges are covered this way making u a more versatile martial artist/fighter and that way if u come up against a boxer in the street u don't have to stand there and try box him to coina phrase "u dont stand an box a boxer" i think grappling as an important part to understand as well as if u know basic principles then this will help make the ground a safer place but try and make the floor the last place u go in the street as u get many judas kicks punches among bottles etc at least some injury will occur.

regards to everybody

remember live life to the full and experience everything at least once......

[tel]

Same here tel with Keysi the grappling we cover is based around BJJ but we also cover silat, shoot and few others so yes grappling as part of JKD as this way all ranges are covered this way making u a more versatile martial artist/fighter and that way if u come up against a boxer in the street u don't have to stand there and try box him to coina phrase "u dont stand an box a boxer" i think grappling as an important part to understand as well as if u know basic principles then this will help make the ground a safer place but try and make the floor the last place u go in the street as u get many judas kicks punches among bottles etc at least some injury will occur.

regards to everybody

remember live life to the full and experience everything at least once......
yeah agree mate,more i here bout and see keysi i like it,plus andy norman's grappling level as superb

[archrival_keysi]

yeah agree mate,more i here bout and see keysi i like it,plus andy norman's grappling level as superb


i got to agree to feel his sensitivity on the floor is just awsome, i think if im not mistaken he holds a blue belt in BJJ that he got off john machado, had a seminar with John machado and wow another awsome grappler. i really do enjoy keysi although gettin a bit annoyed cos cant train due to broken finger lol i lost against a stick.

i do think its necessary to have a good understanding of all ranges and an understanding of when they are/can be used.

Regards to everybody

remember live life to the full respect yourself as u will then respect others....

[faster than you]

remember live life to the full and experience everything at least once......

are you going to experience killing yourself? :rolleyes:

a few of the guy's in our group train under a carlos machado blackbelt in addition to what we train in our jkd/mma group.

[archrival_keysi]

[QUOTE=faster than you]are you going to experience killing yourself? :rolleyes:

Only once in a life time just got to be ready thats all.

Haven't had the pleasure of training with carlos only trained with John Machardo but the whole family is awesome

Regards to everbody

[Alec_28064212]

JKD teaches PLENTY of grappling. It mainly comes from Brazilian Jujitsu, Greco-Roman Wrestling, Freestyle Wrestling, Shoot Wrestling, Sambo and Du Mog. It would be effective to use against MMA guys who train Thai and Brazilian Jujitsu. However, if you want to go into tournaments why would you take JKD anyway? JKD is for the streets. If you want to do tournament fighting you would be better off practicing an art that focus' on it.

[Simplicity]

JKD teaches PLENTY of grappling. It mainly comes from Brazilian Jujitsu, Greco-Roman Wrestling, Freestyle Wrestling, Shoot Wrestling, Sambo and Du Mog. It would be effective to use against MMA guys who train Thai and Brazilian Jujitsu. However, if you want to go into tournaments why would you take JKD anyway? JKD is for the streets. If you want to do tournament fighting you would be better off practicing an art that focus' on it.

JKD cocept teaches plenty of grappling, This is Dan Inosanto JKD. This is not Bruce Lee's JKD......Like I have said before in post.....I have trained in both camps.....If you have ever researched that facts.....which I have talked and train with alot of OBLS.....Bruce Lee didn't want to be on the ground.....He wanted to understand the ground......so that if he went there......he would know how they fight there.....from some of his OBLS have said.......he would always tell them if they got on the ground in a street fight......boy they better get up as fast as they can to their feet.....Thats because he understoood like any seasoned martial artist with alot of expirence.....when you are on the ground no way in hell do you move as fast as you would on your feet or have as many option to defend yourself......

Take It Easy,
John :)

[faster than you]

the only way to learn to efficiently get up from your back is to practice, at least against anyone who is good.

[clockman75]

You sound so sure? You know anything about ground kicking?
Did you know that holds are not as powerfull, as kicks?
Especially, when you get close to the ground.

A kick in the stomach, or head, from underneath an opponent, can seriously mame them. Don't misunderstand, I don't seriously mame people, I am a fair fighter most of the time. I only resort to holds, when they get ahold of me. Otherwise I can end the fight quicker from the ground using punches, and kicks.

If they are much bigger than me, I will attack weak points before I get onto the ground. Then I will drop them, and walk away, hopefully.

If in case, someone gets me in a position, and I am locked. I know the releases to get out of them. A stray hand up into the eyes can also get you out of a head lock, or choke hold. Then there's re-positioning, and feet stomping. Reverse locking, and double joint locking, as well as the counters....

[archrival_keysi]

You sound so sure? You know anything about ground kicking?
Did you know that holds are not as powerfull, as kicks?
Especially, when you get close to the ground.

A kick in the stomach, or head, from underneath an opponent, can seriously mame them. Don't misunderstand, I don't seriously mame people, I am a fair fighter most of the time. I only resort to holds, when they get ahold of me. Otherwise I can end the fight quicker from the ground using punches, and kicks.

If they are much bigger than me, I will attack weak points before I get onto the ground. Then I will drop them, and walk away, hopefully.

If in case, someone gets me in a position, and I am locked. I know the releases to get out of them. A stray hand up into the eyes can also get you out of a head lock, or choke hold. Then there's re-positioning, and feet stomping. Reverse locking, and double joint locking, as well as the counters....


can see where your coming from and sounds like u have a good understanding of the game, do u often just have a role and not try gettin a submittion i find this helps with the game when comin to get a submition of KO depeding on the place hehe.

regards to everybody

[faster than you]

You sound so sure? You know anything about ground kicking?
Did you know that holds are not as powerfull, as kicks?
Especially, when you get close to the ground.

A kick in the stomach, or head, from underneath an opponent, can seriously mame them. Don't misunderstand, I don't seriously mame people, I am a fair fighter most of the time. I only resort to holds, when they get ahold of me. Otherwise I can end the fight quicker from the ground using punches, and kicks.

If they are much bigger than me, I will attack weak points before I get onto the ground. Then I will drop them, and walk away, hopefully.

If in case, someone gets me in a position, and I am locked. I know the releases to get out of them. A stray hand up into the eyes can also get you out of a head lock, or choke hold. Then there's re-positioning, and feet stomping. Reverse locking, and double joint locking, as well as the counters....
kicking and punching when you are mounted/side-controled aren't going to help you much. punching while in someone's guard is more viable, but still dangerous against anyone with an adequate guard game.
once a choke hold is clamped on, you aren't going to have much time to react and even if you do manage to poke your attacker's eyes that is no guarantee that he will release the choke. i have made a guy tap with a rnc despite his biting me and also taken someone down from the clinch despite his gouging my eyes.
your ground defenses seem to be based on assumptions--very dangerous.

[tel]

[QUOTE=faster than you]kicking and punching when you are mounted/side-controled aren't going to help you much. punching while in someone's guard is more viable, but still dangerous against anyone with an adequate guard game.
once a choke hold is clamped on, you aren't going to have much time to react and even if you do manage to poke your attacker's eyes that is no guarantee that he will release the choke. i have made a guy tap with a rnc despite his biting me and also taken someone down from the clinch despite his gouging my eyes.
QUOTE]

yeah good point.if facing a bjj guy.will always be looking for your mistakes.if caught he a choke/strandle,some guys can take more punishment than others so hitting them while they are applying a technqiue may still result in you taping

[minimal]

I'm glad to hear that grappling is covered in a lot of JKD schools. I wasn't sure.
I'm also hoping there are techniques to escape quickly as I don't think grappling is wise with more than one opponent.

I like the idea of taking many things and bringing in those which are most efficient/compatible with JKD. By having different skills and styles present in your sparring partner you are better prepared to deal with the mixed environments of real life.

[tel]

like averything else grappling has to be doneto be understood.even if u don't like grapplingleast if u understand it u have a better chance of escaping from it

[minimal]

I think that recognising that grappling can be a bad place to be shouldn't remove it from the realm of what is practiced, just that it should be practiced from the point of view of escaping. One - against - many is a bad place to be but you still train, I would hope, starting from this bad pace and learning to equalize the odds.

I don't fear frontal chokes too much, because if an opponent could get one on me he could also have struck my throat, which is more worrying.

In a rear choke, even if I don't tuck my chin down to protect my throat I still have six seconds to escape, and that should be enough. The important thing when attacked from behind is not to lose balance backwards, as with a choke and a knee in your back it can be difficult to gain control of an opponent.

[faster than you]

you should fear the guillotine--it has won a lot of fights.

[Pat OMalley]

Grappling is fine in the ring, but on the street it can cost you your life, what if the opponent has freinds with him, would you grapple him? NO, they would jump all over you.

What if he has a knife, then you would be a fool to grapple him because that is where he wants you.

I love my FMA weapons and I always say to grapplers, please, please grapple me.

If someone is good and does not want to go to the floor, on the street it is not easy to apply.

Sorry about this but as far as street fighting is concerned (and that is what JKD is supposed to be all about in the first place) and against popular Martial arts beleifs the majority of real fights do not end up on the floor, well not both parties anyway, 99% of the time one person ends up on the floor (the loser) and the other jumps all over his head before smiling and walking away.

Train in grappling to understand and how to counter it by all means, but what ever you do, don't beleive it wil be the thing that saves your neck in the real fight. Anyway 2 big burly sweaty guys rolling around the floor in lycra, it's just not right:eek:

Best regards

Pat

[Simplicity]

Grappling is fine in the ring, but on the street it can cost you your life, what if the opponent has freinds with him, would you grapple him? NO, they would jump all over you.

What if he has a knife, then you would be a fool to grapple him because that is where he wants you.

I love my FMA weapons and I always say to grapplers, please, please grapple me.

If someone is good and does not want to go to the floor, on the street it is not easy to apply.

Sorry about this but as far as street fighting is concerned (and that is what JKD is supposed to be all about in the first place) and against popular Martial arts beleifs the majority of real fights do not end up on the floor, well not both parties anyway, 99% of the time one person ends up on the floor (the loser) and the other jumps all over his head before smiling and walking away.

Train in grappling to understand and how to counter it by all means, but what ever you do, don't beleive it wil be the thing that saves your neck in the real fight. Anyway 2 big burly sweaty guys rolling around the floor in lycra, it's just not right:eek:

Best regards

Pat

Bravo....Pat I like it....What up my friend? I see that two guys that grew up in the street, still see the same things...lol....In the streets of Detroit, it be your last night out playing on the ground. Take Care My Friend.

Peace-Out!
John

[Covaliufan]

Striking is fine in the ring, but on the street it can cost you your life, what if the opponent has freinds with him, would you hit him? NO, they would jump all over you.

What if he has a knife, then you would be a fool to approach and hit him because that is where he wants you.

I love my FMA weapons and I always say to strikers, please, please try to hit me.

If someone is good and wants to take you to the floor, on the street striking is not easy to apply.

Sorry about this but as far as street fighitng is concerned, 99% of the time one person ends up on the floor. If you're not the one who knows take downds or take down defenses, it'll be probably be you. If you don't know how to use the guard and escape from the bottom position, the other jumps all over your head before smiling and walking away.

Train in striking to understand and how to counter it by all means, but what ever you do, don't beleive it wil be the thing that saves your neck in the real fight. Besides, I find grappling highly sexual and erotic.

Best regards

Most definitely not Pat

[Pat OMalley]

Striking is fine in the ring, but on the street it can cost you your life, what if the opponent has freinds with him, would you hit him? NO, they would jump all over you.

What if he has a knife, then you would be a fool to approach and hit him because that is where he wants you.

I love my FMA weapons and I always say to strikers, please, please try to hit me.

If someone is good and wants to take you to the floor, on the street striking is not easy to apply.

Sorry about this but as far as street fighitng is concerned, 99% of the time one person ends up on the floor. If you're not the one who knows take downds or take down defenses, it'll be probably be you. If you don't know how to use the guard and escape from the bottom position, the other jumps all over your head before smiling and walking away.

Train in striking to understand and how to counter it by all means, but what ever you do, don't beleive it wil be the thing that saves your neck in the real fight. Besides, I find grappling highly sexual and erotic.

Best regards

Most definitely not PatNice:rolleyes:

I like a guy with a sence of humour:D Good one.

Best regards

Most definitley Me

[medi]

Striking is fine in the ring, but on the street it can cost you your life, what if the opponent has freinds with him, would you hit him? NO, they would jump all over you.

What if he has a knife, then you would be a fool to approach and hit him because that is where he wants you.


As much as I like the humorous response, isn't that exactly how we DO fight vs. multiple opponents and weapons in FMA?

Funny as it was, I didn't really get the point

[Linguo]

Train in grappling to understand and how to counter it by all means, but what ever you do, don't beleive it wil be the thing that saves your neck in the real fight.


Haven't there been enough stories on this website about how grappling HAS saved lives?

[Covaliufan]

The point was that grappling tends to be considered with double standards, in that the things that make grappling difficult tend to make striking difficult as well. I was trying to illustrate that by pointing out that the arguments made above still seem to make sense when you substitute striking for grappling. I'd never be the one to tell you what you do in fma, but I reserve my doubts that an archetypical "striker" will do any better than a "grappler" if faced with several people or weapons. For a better explanation of such things, you might read the grappling faq, posted in the mma section of this website.

[tel]

if i went to ground in a steetfight i would do my best to get to my feet asap.but still good to know grappling so don't freeze if it happens

[Pat OMalley]

The point was that grappling tends to be considered with double standards, in that the things that make grappling difficult tend to make striking difficult as well. I was trying to illustrate that by pointing out that the arguments made above still seem to make sense when you substitute striking for grappling. I'd never be the one to tell you what you do in fma, but I reserve my doubts that an archetypical "striker" will do any better than a "grappler" if faced with several people or weapons. For a better explanation of such things, you might read the grappling faq, posted in the mma section of this website.You have some good points, but I think your missing my point, I too grapple, had a few guys do well in MMA events, even my wife won a British MMA title, so I am not anti grappling. I am just anti relying on grappling to save my skin.

Imagine, your in a street fight, you think it is one on one. You go to ground, you catch a glint out of the corner of your eye. Bang it's too late he has just stabbed you, because he got you exactley where he wanted you.

Same thing second senario, you go to ground and Bang all his mates come out of nowhere and jump all over you.

I have seen it happen and been on the receiving end of too.

After 15 years on the doors and being brought up in 2 of the roughest areas in Britain, I found out that 90% of the time it is only one person who ends up there, the loser. There are exceptions by why rely on something that clearly runs a higher risk of you getting seriously hurt on the street.

As I said, it is good to know in order to counter it, and it is good fun the sports arena, but at the end of the day it is not what real street fighting is all about is it. Let's be honest with ourselves here, neither is a large portion of what is taught by many so called JKD instructors, it is only a few that really know what they are all about, the rest just live of the BL name.

Best regards

Pat

[Florida Warlock]

We definitely do do a lot of grappling. Since JKD is an "in your face" third range style, the fight will eventually be taken to the ground.

[Diverse1]

I think Pat OMalley defenitly has a point on the multiple apponents argument when it comes to grappling in a street fight (good point with the weapon) I've seen some UFC instances where there is some grappling goin on but the guy on the ground can still get in some hits while being put in holds and stuff. Replace that fist with a knife and Pat OMalley really made his point)

I would just like to raise a question that was kind of brought up in the first few posts. How does JKD compare to Jujitsu/BJJ. are there more differences or similarities. From what i understand they both seem to be styles that include a variety of things.

[Covaliufan]

I've seen some UFC instances where there is some striking going on and the guy getting hit can get some punches of his own in. If he had a knife, wow the striker would be screwed.

This game of mine is really easy, but not meant to simply be annoying. People who grapple can't beat up more than one person at a time unless they get incredibly lucky. They're in serious trouble fighting a person who has a weapon unless they get really lucky. But the same goes for everyone who wants to avoid grappling. The double standard is really tiring.

[medi]

I've seen some UFC instances where there is some striking going on and the guy getting hit can get some punches of his own in. If he had a knife, wow the striker would be screwed.

This game of mine is really easy, but not meant to simply be annoying. People who grapple can't beat up more than one person at a time unless they get incredibly lucky. They're in serious trouble fighting a person who has a weapon unless they get really lucky. But the same goes for everyone who wants to avoid grappling. The double standard is really tiring.


The part you don't understand, is that Filipino Martial Arts, generally regarded as one of the best weapons arts in the world, deal with both weapons and multiple attackers, by retaining mobility and avoiding going to the ground.

That's why this idea you're trying to put across, that striking and grappling are equally valid in those scenarios, doesn't make sense.