Boxing for the Street

[Stuart H]

How would you adapt boxing for a street situation? I mean the actual system of boxing, not just "add kicks and grappling".

[shootodog]

this is going to be a long and wide discussion.

for starters, i'd advise you to learn how to use your elbows. also, i'd add knees, foot/ instep/ knee stomps and low kicks (door breakers and low knee aimed 45s). learn to use you fingers (poke eyes, fish hooks and the like). expand your strike areas to the spine and back of the head, grion shots, etc.

basically, it's dirty stand-up fighting. over here we call it "mano-mano" or "tondo freestyle".

[Paratus]

Adapt boxing for a street situation? I would think the punching would be sufficient in many cases, if not listen to shootodog ;)

[danceofdeath]

yep. ur elbows and knees could be very useful in this kind of fight. strikes to the tummy, head and groin should be very effective. hehe. wer u from shooto? add yawyan to yer friendster sayawngkamatayan@yahoo.com ingat dude! (take care)

[shootodog]

yep. ur elbows and knees could be very useful in this kind of fight. strikes to the tummy, head and groin should be very effective. hehe. wer u from shooto? add yawyan to yer friendster sayawngkamatayan@yahoo.com ingat dude! (take care)

yawyan v. luna under sir toto limaco (1992-1994). :D :D :D

now i'm with danny foronda, jr.'s submission dungeon brotherhood and roland isla's kali de leon manila.

[danceofdeath]

ahehehe. im frm yawyan pasay under sir saladin fernandez. so your under the mumbakki now huh? idol ko un (hes my idol). hehe. add yawyan to yer friendtser huh? =P

[shootodog]

i was wondering: is it common that boxing trainers to teach you "the dirt"? or was it just me? ("yah thru di elbu at di ahy! do it gid!" -dondon).

dance, it is done.

[johndoch]

Firstly you should learn to punch without handwraps and bag gloves.

Wraps/gloves allow you to punch much heavier than when you have no protection. This is obviously because wraps support and strengthen the alignment of your wrist and the gloves absorb and spread out the transfer of energy over a larger surface area.

This could result in a broken wrist because the boxer is ultimately adapted to fight with protection.

[alex_000]

Yep its good to hit the Punching bag once a week with bare hands. (I do and I observed over the years that i'm one of the few in my gym that can hit the bag with ful force without worrying about the wrist). Also be sure not to hit the hairy part of the haid - and forehead- without gloves (effects vary from aawwooooutch to broken bones).

[SoKKlab]

How would you adapt boxing for a street situation? I mean the actual system of boxing, not just "add kicks and grappling".

You cut out the emphasis upon trying to score points and train for maximum speed and power in short combinations.

You concentrate upon achieving 'Forward Drive'. Here you are cutting out the idea of wearing down an opponent and gearing yourself towards breaking them up into pieces very quickly and being able to throw Power punches from any angle.

You concentrate upon getting your bodyweight into every blow, so that even with the humble jab, you are moving forwards, fist landing just a beat before the feet, in order to increase the stopping power of your punches.

You endeavour to develop Shovel hooks and Uppercuts that smash things. You work on connecting with other targets, example Uppercut to the Nutsack.

JohnDoc made a good point, throw away the handwraps and Boxing Gloves for Bag work and just use a thinly padded pair of bag gloves.

You work less upon bobbing and weaving and more upon being 'true-spaced', in that you veer off at 45 degree angles, preferably to the outside of your opponents body, so that you can attack them at will, but they find it difficult to respond, because of their body position.

Your defencive work becomes more about stopping their blows with your elbows and forearms, in order to increase the likelyhood of them breaking their fists on your bony elbow mass, ala Olde English boxing, Muay Thai etc.

This happens because your guard is there and not because of the more precision-orientated destructions that some systems proffer.

Once you've worked it out from these POVs, then you add in other stuff like edge of Hand blows, Elbows, trips, kicks and throws etc, but you must re-engineer your basic Boxing away from a Sporting sense and into a Fighting One, first.

[seantech]

Yep its good to hit the Punching bag once a week with bare hands. (I do and I observed over the years that i'm one of the few in my gym that can hit the bag with ful force without worrying about the wrist). Also be sure not to hit the hairy part of the haid - and forehead- without gloves (effects vary from aawwooooutch to broken bones).


I must be on the good track then... I can hit it full force a couple of times with hardly any wrist problems with any hand... Sometimes I get unlucky and X@$%¦! my left hand (wrist). The right is quite hard though.... I have been hardening my right hand for a couple of years now... I can bash a concrete wall with moderate power without having too much of a problem. Not that it's good for you...

[johndoch]

Excellent post Sokklab

You hit the nail right on the head :)

Especially the bit about the uppercut to the nutsack :cry: Classic quote

[SoKKlab]

Excellent post Sokklab

You hit the nail right on the head :)

Especially the bit about the uppercut to the nutsack :cry: Classic quote

Why thank you, Sir...Glad to be of service :)

[alex_000]

I must be on the good track then... I can hit it full force a couple of times with hardly any wrist problems with any hand... Sometimes I get unlucky and X@$%¦! my left hand (wrist). The right is quite hard though.... I have been hardening my right hand for a couple of years now... I can bash a concrete wall with moderate power without having too much of a problem. Not that it's good for you...

Carefull with the walls. I've got a boxers fracture (u know, the little finger) cause i hit the wall clumsy when I had a fight (verbal :D) with my girlfriend. I usually hit the sac for about 2x1,5min full force /week without problems (well maybe the next day my hand is a little sore but nothing special..) . Believe it or not I have a bigger problem with the gloves. The thumb is in very bad position in the glove and I often hurt it with crosses witch land on elbows or heads...

[kenpfrenger]

Excellent post Sokklab



I'll chime in here and agree about that post...very nice. We do boxing as a meansof self preservation here and not as a sport. You pretty much described how we do it. Nice to see agreement:)

[Freeform]

What JD said. I've known quite a few amateur boxers get into scraps, KO the guy but break their own hand in the process, so definately practice all the same drills but with out the gloves/handwraps.

Throw in a wee bit of clinch work and elbows and your sorted ;)

[YODA]

Throw in a wee bit of clinch work and elbows and your sorted ;)

Add a few low kicks and knees too.

Hmmmm - that could make a good system :D

[Jame$]

Great post Sokklab, Informative and inspirational.
Sorry to bring it up again but I thought it deserved due commendation.

[seantech]

Carefull with the walls. I've got a boxers fracture (u know, the little finger) cause i hit the wall clumsy when I had a fight (verbal :D) with my girlfriend. I usually hit the sac for about 2x1,5min full force /week without problems (well maybe the next day my hand is a little sore but nothing special..) . Believe it or not I have a bigger problem with the gloves. The thumb is in very bad position in the glove and I often hurt it with crosses witch land on elbows or heads...


Till some time ago I had pains when even doing pushups on my fists because some ex-classmate broke (there was a crack in the bone) my little pinky's knuckle on the left hand... You can imagine that that + wall + force / whenever I hit the wall in the wrong fasion = pain. I don't have too much of a problem now ;) Thanks for the warning anyway!

I now use my magnificant gloves to pound concrete... I can hit harder/faster without even having to think about too much pain an/or injuries.

Sean

[JKD guy]

I have taken Jeet Kune Do (Bruce Lee's art) and krav maga. Both are heavily centered on 'street boxing' and have elbows and knees and stuff like that. They could both be described as 'dirty boxing'. For example, in krav maga, there is a thing where I jab cross, move in, then head butt. In JKD, I can cross and then turn it into an elbow in one motion. In krav, if someone tries to stab me, I hand trap his arm down - pinning it to his body, while I punch the s*** out of the guy...

[cybermonk]

In krav, if someone tries to stab me, I hand trap his arm down - pinning it to his body, while I punch the s*** out of the guy...

Or he trains in a knife art and kills you. :)

[JKD guy]

The people likely to stab you with a knife never studied a 'knife art'. Guys that study kali don't tend to stab people, etc. For example, the people who stab guys in the Filipines just ambush the guy. They grab him and before he sees the blade, it is in him. Ditto in prisons with shanks. Whereas, the vast majority of 'knife experts' and kali experts (trust me, I have met them) have zero real experience.

What they do in krav maga (trust me, the Israelis HAVE thought this through), is what is known in JKD as "attack by drawing" -they let the knife wielder think he has an easy shot at their gut. At he tries to stab them there, they will hand parry the stab, and simultaneously do a throat strike, eye poke, punch, etc.

If you immediately 'set up' like you know knife defense, the attacker will just make his knife attack much, much more complex, to compensate for that.

But most knife attacks never go there. A real knife attack is like this: guy is standing next to you, close. He asks you for the time, and as you are answering him, he grabs your shirt, jerking you forward. At the same time, he brings out his knife - which was hidden behind him - to stab you like 4-5 times.

It really is a 'knife ambush', not a knife fight. 95% of 'kali fighters' and 'blade experts' can't deal with that kind of attack, because they never study it.

[Albert]

Um..punch people. yah.

[cybermonk]

But most knife attacks never go there. A real knife attack is like this: guy is standing next to you, close. He asks you for the time, and as you are answering him, he grabs your shirt, jerking you forward. At the same time, he brings out his knife - which was hidden behind him - to stab you like 4-5 times.


That sounds more like what an every day guy would do in cuba, im sure they teach you a lot more than that in knife fighting arts, its too simplified in my oppinion. For example why even restrict it to knives, lets not learn how to fight. You know how a fight used to go down in my neighborhood? Ill tell you: Guy comes next to you walking like he lost something looking around and stuff he asks you something like how to get to this or that adress(usually a place a few streets in the opposite direction to where you are going) then you tell him and he starts walking back while at the same time another guy who was relatively far when you talked to the other guy is now closer to you and then he says something random(pretends to be selling something etc) then you hear someone moving fast behind you and you've got yourself in a pretty tight spot.

However, unarmed fighting systems dont base their whole fighting method on surprising and ambushing people, why would weapon fighting systems be any different? I know surprise and ambush is somewhat an important element but its not all there is to know about handling a knife. Maybe some of the FMA people could input something?

[JKD guy]

true...but my point is, what they teach in 'kali blade fighting', or whatever is not what you will encounter on the street. My point was not that kali guys aren't good. My point is, real street encounters ('ambushes') don't take place the way kali and 'knife fighting experts' train.

I try to tell 'blade experts' that a real 'knife fighter' will ambush them, and they will have no time to get their own weapon out.

----------------------------------------------
"What are you teaching them sargeant?"
- "Knife fighting, sir."
- "You don't teach them to 'knife fight', you teach them to kill. Then, when they meet some guy who studied 'knife fighting', they'll send his soul to hell"

- Val Kilmer in "Spartan"

[notquitedead]

I agree with learning elbows/knees. It's not that hard really, I adapted the mechanics of a cross, lead hook, lead hook to the body, and upper cut to elbows and it works great (at least on my heavy bag lol). You just gotta bend your elbow and get closer. ;) Kneeing isn't that hard either.

[cybermonk]

I try to tell 'blade experts' that a real 'knife fighter' will ambush them, and they will have no time to get their own weapon out.


I hear you but that happens with every martial art, hypothetically speaking lets say I am very good at what I do, lets say I am so good at unarmed fighting than anyone who squares off against me is going to lose. However, if I get ambushed well enough I wont be able to defend myself no matter how good I am, ambushes have been excelent stratgies since the begining of time, fall in a very good one and you may aswell be dead.

But the point I was making is that the technique you described is supposed to counter someone who has already drawn his weapon and your very good points dont change the fact that if he is indeed skilled with his weapon and you are unarmed you are in very deep trouble. Of course not many people in the street are good with weapons nor empty hand for that matter but thats one of those techniques that could get you killed if you come up against the wrong guy.

[JKD guy]

If someone pulls a knife on me, I run. Period. I don't care how good my training is. My ego can recover later...

The best way to beat the guy with a weapon is to jump on him AS he deploys it. As he reaches into his pants for the thing, you rush him. Or, you run... The worst place to be is 'no man's land' - at 'medio range' as they would say in the Filipine systems.

...but I think we agree on this...

[notquitedead]

I have seen very few people who think they would do otherwise if a guy pulled a knife or gun on them. I for one would run if I could.

That doesn't stop me from training knife and gun defenses (I doubt anything like that will ever happen, but it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it ;) and besides working with weapons is fun), though.

[cybermonk]

You are both right and wrong to some extent. If someone pulls a knife and I am able to run I will. However, sometimes it just happens when someone puts his knife in a friend of yours and the thought of leaving him on the floor to bleed to death is not particularly appealing at which point you have to do something.

Knife and gun defences are fun to do but they are both based on somewhat erroneous principles. Most knife defences assume that either: 1. the weapons hasnt been deployed, but you have knowledge that it is going to be deployed or 2. the person using the weapon is not particularly skilled. Both principles are somewhat lacking. Gun defences on the other hand are very far from battle oriented, they assume that the person pulling the gun is at a very close range which is a range that presents the weapon holder with disadvantages and they also, for the most part, assume that the weapon holder hesitates to initiate his attack. In other words, if someone is out to kill you with determination and skill neither of the two will serve you.

If someone has a weapon and is skilled in its use then you must equilize the situation by using a weapon of your choice. Fortunately, there are not many people out there who are skilled so we could get away with fighting armed people unarmed, but is definately not something we should rely on.

[notquitedead]

Did I say that weapon defenses work every single time? Nope. ;) It's still useful to have some training in credible ones; most of the stuff out there is pure BS.

I've seen too many disarms where the 'attacker' just stands there holding the knife half a foot away from the 'defender'. The defender then does some complicated wrist lock (many of which involve turning your back to the armed attacker lol) to disarm the attacker.

[cybermonk]

Good to see we are kind of in the same page, although I would seriously question 100% of all those "defenses" most of the times if you are skilled enough to realisticly pull off the technique there are over 10 other things you could do with the same effect and less risk. I have had interesting experiences with knife attacks and let me tell you the last thing I wanted to do was get in close and "check" the weapon arm etc etc. More like keep my distance until I see a pretty darn good opportunity to attack.

[shootodog]

who says fma doesn't train for ambushes?

[TheMachine]

I'd use the slips, bobs and weaves to avoid punches and use punching combos plus dirty tactics like pushing kicking, low blows, stomping. Do whatever it takes to survive a streetfight.

[speed_dragon]

HEELLLOOOO!!!! kickboxing duh!

[seantech]

Kickboxing doesn't cover (I think) the use of chains/dirt/pipes/anything you can use from your surrounding and your head (both in the sence of thinking and physically using it)...

[Freeform]

Kickboxing doesn't cover (I think) the use of chains/dirt/pipes/anything you can use from your surrounding and your head (both in the sence of thinking and physically using it)...


Not many systems do.

[shootodog]

Not many systems do.

those that do are called reality based self defense (rbsd).

**brace yourself, shameless plug coming**<ehem> try kali! it tackles a lot of those things. some (kali) systems' empty hands resemble dirty boxing (mano-mano, tondo freestyle, etc.).**end of shameless plug**

besides, if you don't train for it, the likelihood of being ready for it is slim. though the counter arguement is that the body could only move in a limited number of ways, and if your art (boxing included) trains youto move and counter and defend against these movements, then it is effective on t3h str33t. :bang:

[seantech]

though the counter arguement is that the body could only move in a limited number of ways, and if your art (boxing included) trains youto move and counter and defend against these movements, then it is effective on t3h str33t. :bang:


That is too true although I see people do some weird sh1t these days when it comes to moves (moving) or the ability to do so... Still the possibilities are finite.