CD vs Vinyl.

[Andy Murray]

Before getting to the meat and bones of the topic, I must first explain that, by vinyl, I mean records, the things you put on turntables, and delicately position your stylus weilding tone arm over.

It's pretty obvious that the download generation has been hitting the music industry hard, with CD sales being hit hardest.

Why buy a CD when you can download and burn it yourself right?

I was listening to the radio this week, and some old codger was trying to demonstrate that vinyl sounded better than cd. (The very fact he was trying to do this on FM radio and using a recording made in the 60's, blew his credibility for me)

The idea is, that the industry is trying to persuade people to go back to vinyl, saying it sounds better.

Am I being cynical for suggesting it's because you can't download and press vinyl in your own home?

Anybody else think vinyl sounds better than cd?

Thoughts?

P.S. please have good reasons, as audio is my field. ;)

[StorDuff]

My friend claims that as well. If you want ultra high quality, why not just buy and play HDCD's? Unless you are a DJ, vinyl seems pretty worthless, plus it takes more time to mess with and takes up too much space in storage. I never understood why the minidisc didn't catch on, I never used them, but it seemed like a cool idea :o

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

Ah, vinyl records! How well I remember! I have several cartons of vinyl records sitting in a closet; I can't play them because I have nothing to play them on. Andy, I think you might be right about the "vinyl is better" argument being used because we can't make our own vinyl records.

I have no expertise in this area, but I have heard many people say that classical music sounds better ("warmer" and more "alive", whatever that means) on vinyl than on CD. My ears are not refined enough to tell the difference (and I don't know that this would be true for rock). Since vinyl records scratch and wear down so easily, they would soon start sounding worse than CDs anyway, even if they started out sounding better.

Vinyl won't replace CDs for me, because of the breakability, the scratchability, and the large harder-to-store size. The only advantage vinyl has is that the large size is better for cover art, but that's not really a big deal.

An aside: Ages ago (I'm talking about when my Mom was a kid), there were these booths in amusement parks -- you could put in your nickel, and record a few minutes of whatever you wanted -- and take a record home with you. On the "Honeymooners" TV show, Ed Norton had a home version of such a machine -- make your own records. So maybe we could be downloading and recording our own vinyl! Of course, records weren't made of vinyl back then -- maybe that's the difference (if you dropped an old record on the floor, it would shatter into a dozen pieces!)

[KickChick]

Well, I happen to be of the "old school"...

Back in the early 80's when I was a radio DJ ...
I was actually sitting between two turntables, moving the records with my hands, not punching buttons on a panel as they do nowadays. It was much more of an "art" .... segueing two songs together at just the right appropriate 'riff'..... ah those days!!

Honestly if I were to liston to digital vs. analog recording, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

I do miss the album covers though! True works of art!

[spacepimp]

Truly I do not see how it would stop copying from vinyl through an analog to digital converter, and putting it on your own cd, or putting out on the internet. I have never tried but I have done something similar with some old tapes of mine, basicvally should be the same thing.

Pearl Jam tried to do something like this years ago with their anthology album... It never caught on...

[KickChick]

The new Velvet Revolver album, "Contraband" is copy-protected. This is one of three discs that BMG is releasing in the U.S. this summer.
Labels to dampen CD burning (http://news.com.com/Labels+to+dampen+CD+burning%3F/2100-1027_3-5224090.html?tag=nefd.lede)

[Scarlet Mist]

Two letters, one number: MP3. I can't tell the difference between vinyl and CD/MP3 music. I really can't. Even with Classical music.
Then again, everything is always played loud these days. Besides, vinyl is so delicate, ... but at least it makes good frisbees ... hahaha, I guess you could say they're good for "airplay". :D Oh how I crack myself up.

[Saz]

"Copy Protected".. yeah, we've all heard that one before. Someone somewhere, will crack it within weeks.

Cynical, Moi? :Angel:

[Poop-Loops]

Don't those old records work by making tiny holes into it, and when the needle "bumps" over it, the sound is created? That's not very accurate, compared to making tiny "burns" on the CD that are read, and then made into REAL sound. :p

Well, I've never actually heard anything played on those old records, but I tell you, I'd rather carry around a CD and a CD player than a record and a record player. =/

PL

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

Well, I've never actually heard anything played on those old records
I feel so old. :(

[La Mancha]

Andy I think the thought behind this is that in cds the sound is cropped of high and low fequencies and vinyl isnt. Myself I cant tell the difference and am busy copying my records to cd.

Kick chick thanks very interesting article. How long before any system they use is hacked? or how about playing the cd into the computer via the soundcard and then copying to cd. If its done throught the audio in/out it would be an analogue signal and so bypass the protection.
Just my thoughts.

David

[Andy Murray]

Andy I think the thought behind this is that in cds the sound is cropped of high and low fequencies and vinyl isnt. Myself I cant tell the difference and am busy copying my records to cd.


Quite the opposite, CD has a greater extension of High and Low frequency content, moreover as a format, it's capable of greater dynamic range.

Technically, it's an arguement of digital reproduction of an analogue signal, vs analogue representation of an analogue signal (or various combinants).

Bear in mind that sound is analogue both in it's creation and reproduction.

A/D & D/A processing have been going onto both Vinyl and CD formats since the early 80's.

(You really can't beat a vinyl triple album gatefold sleeve though)

[KickChick]

Those that say vinyl records sound better than CD discs need to bear in mind a point I forgot to bring up with regards to LPs.
And someone correct me if I'm wrong here but I do believe that during the 80's most recordings were in fact done digitally. They were done on 24 track digital machines, mixed and mastered in the digital domain and then released on vinyl as well as on CD so you really can't say that vinyl sounds any better than CDs.

[Andy Murray]

The best way to hear a recording, is in the studio, as close to source as you can get.

The amplifier, speaker system and especially the room you listen to them in all change the result.

Funny thing the human ear though.
You listen to something on your super duper Hi Fi, then get in your car and hear the same thing on the cruddy in-car system, and before you've driven far, you've tuned in to it, and forget.

[Saz]

Bear in mind that sound is analogue both in it's creation and reproduction.

A/D & D/A processing have been going onto both Vinyl and CD formats since the early 80's.

(You really can't beat a vinyl triple album gatefold sleeve though)

And you have the audacity to call me a Geek! :p :D

[JohnnyX]

I used to collect Picture Disks and Coloured Vinyl Disks.
Got a couple that are even worth more than what I paid for them. :D

However, I cannot believe that Analog sounds better quality than Digital. :confused:

Cheers. :)

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

I used to collect Picture Disks and Coloured Vinyl Disks.

I have lots of those, too! I even have a few that are shaped differently (not round).

[Andy Murray]

OK, here's one for the oldies....

Who had a Mono (came before stereo) all in one gramaphone, where you could stack 3 or 4 seven inch records, and they'd drop an play one after the other?

Oh, and did they sound better than CD's ? :D

[Saz]

I used to collect Picture Disks and Coloured Vinyl Disks.
Got a couple that are even worth more than what I paid for them. :D


Me too, me too :D

I've got one I've been told is worth about £50 I think

[YODA]

OK, here's one for the oldies....

Who had a Mono (came before stereo) all in one gramaphone, where you could stack 3 or 4 seven inch records, and they'd drop an play one after the other?

Oh, and did they sound better than CD's ? :D
Me me me! I used to stack up LPs on it too!

As for sounding better - it all sounds iffy with THESE goosed ears :(

[JohnnyX]

OK, here's one for the oldies....

Who had a Mono (came before stereo) all in one gramaphone, where you could stack 3 or 4 seven inch records, and they'd drop an play one after the other?

We used to have one that was built into a sideboard that was like 10 feet wide and had a lift up lid and 'integrated' radio. :eek:


Oh, and did they sound better than CD's ? :D
Nope. :D

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

OK, here's one for the oldies....

Who had a Mono (came before stereo) all in one gramaphone, where you could stack 3 or 4 seven inch records, and they'd drop an play one after the other?

Oh, and did they sound better than CD's ? :D
I remember those mono record players, and the seven-inch records -- had a bunch (still do; my sister's hanging on to them) -- and they sounded considerably worse than CDs -- they sounded even worse than the 12-inch vinyl records! Those record players came with four speeds, by the way -- 16 RPM (????), 45 RPM (7-inch records), 33 RPM (12-inch records), and 78 RPM (the ancient 10-inch records that shattered when you dropped them).

Here's the true oldies test -- do you remember when records (vinyl) came in both "mono" and "stereo" -- you could play the mono ones on a stereo system, but not the other way around, so if you only had a monaural record player, you had to check the record jacket for the "MONO" designation!

{{ETA, I just read JohnnyX's post; my parents had one of those big sideboard-like things! The olden days before there were component systems!}}

[YODA]

Here's the true oldies test -- do you remember when records (vinyl) came in both "mono" and "stereo" -- you could play the mono ones on a stereo system, but not the other way around, so if you only had a monaural record player, you had to check the record jacket for the "MONO" designation!


I've still got some of the early Beatles LPs in Mono :D

[Andy Murray]

*Then, akin to the emergence of MMA, arrived the 8 track cassette! Kching!!!

Eh Yoda. ;)

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

I've still got some of the early Beatles LPs in Mono :D
So do I! Like "Meet the Beatles"! (and others) :D :D

8-track cassettes? ACK!! {{KT bangs her head against the wall}} I'm glad I never invested in that technology! :D

[Andy Murray]

Hah, I got an Original 'Bill Haley and the Comets Album', and it's about an inch thick. :p

[ninposam]

hmmm music, 1 of my loves iv got to say that vinyl is best for geting the fealing of the music, i have many old lps including most of the Beatles first pressings!
I spent about 3k on my hifi, so maybe i can hear a small diffrence (not a lot i have to say)

[Andy Murray]

hmmm music, 1 of my loves iv got to say that vinyl is best for geting the fealing of the music, i have many old lps including most of the Beatles first pressings!
I spent about 3k on my hifi, so maybe i can hear a small diffrence (not a lot i have to say)

Psychoaccoustics, complete with directional OFC copper cable?

[quartermaster]

personaly, i prefer teh ceramic hard disk drive to all these ancient technologies.

honestly, you old people...where does it end...?

[JohnnyX]

personaly, i prefer teh ceramic hard disk drive to all these ancient technologies.

honestly, you old people...where does it end...?

Go-faster stripes and fake fog lights on our cars. :D

[pgm316]

I think a lot of the "sounds warmer" with vinyl is due to the way the old record player system sounded compared to the clearer modern system. Do you think it woul dmake any noticeable difference making CD's higher definition?

[Andy Murray]

I think a lot of the "sounds warmer" with vinyl is due to the way the old record player system sounded compared to the clearer modern system. Do you think it woul dmake any noticeable difference making CD's higher definition?

Nope and yes. Depends what you are listening for.


Vinyl sounds 'warmer' because the frequency reproduction tails off at 4khz and produces little over 15Khz.

The human ear has evolved (naturally) to become sensitive to sounds made from 600Hz to 6KHz (mammalian vocal cords), so mid range and treble frequenies quickly become irritating.
This is no fault of CD, as it's only as good as what you put in. If you feed in an original beatles master which sounds fine on vinyl, the CD may well expose harsh and aggravating frequencys, which the reference monitoring of that day wouldn't portray (moreover, the modern ear is better trained).

As to Higher Definition CD's.

Some people have said that they can't hear the difference between Vinyl/CD/MP3 etc already. Even so, I'd bet that subliminally, they can. They just don't know how to express the difference.

[JohnnyX]

I think a lot of the "sounds warmer" with vinyl is due to the way the old record player system sounded compared to the clearer modern system. Do you think it woul dmake any noticeable difference making CD's higher definition?

A mate of mine has an awsome CD System and is into the technology a bit.

Anyway, he once told me (Andy Murray can correct this if wrong), that there are different qualities of CDs recordings that you buy. Some are higher than others. He said that somebody like Celine Dion's CDs are the highest quality. He swears that he can hear the difference on his system.

Maybe I misheard or didn't really understand him properly. :(

EDIT: Blummin heck! This is my 1500th Post. :eek:

[pgm316]

Nope and yes. Depends what you are listening for.


Vinyl sounds 'warmer' because the frequency reproduction tails off at 4khz and produces little over 15Khz.

The human ear has evolved (naturally) to become sensitive to sounds made from 600Hz to 6KHz (mammalian vocal cords), so mid range and treble frequenies quickly become irritating.
This is no fault of CD, as it's only as good as what you put in. If you feed in an original beatles master which sounds fine on vinyl, the CD may well expose harsh and aggravating frequencys, which the reference monitoring of that day wouldn't portray (moreover, the modern ear is better trained).

As to Higher Definition CD's.

Some people have said that they can't hear the difference between Vinyl/CD/MP3 etc already. Even so, I'd bet that subliminally, they can. They just don't know how to express the difference.

So I guess its the weaknesses of the vinyl that made it sound better in the end.

Another thing about music systems, I believe theres loads of snobiness like there is with wine tasting. I've read articles in music equipment magazines saying how computer CD writers greatly reduce the quality of music compared to the ones made specifically for Hi-Fi's. I've copied CD's and let friends listen and they've never known which is the original. I wonder how easily you'd know the difference between CD/vinyl if at all :confused:

[Andy Murray]

Anyway, he once told me (Andy Murray can correct this if wrong), that there are different qualities of CDs recordings that you buy. Some are higher than others. He said that somebody like Celine Dion's CDs are the highest quality. He swears that he can hear the difference on his system.


Big money Artistes = Big Budget recordings, with more time spent, and state of the art equipment.

Just like film though, sometimes the quality of production exposes the lack of talent. ;)

Enjoying music isn't necessarily about technical production, or rather, it becomes secondary to the purpose.

Take Linkin Park, or Rage against the Machine.
You don't notice the production, as it merely enhances, whereas modern pop chart pulp is mostly a product of a machined process.

[booksie_girl]

Dad claims that vinyl sounds better, but he has a very sensitive ear. Music played on a cheap CD player that sounds slightly metalic doesn't really bother me, but it drives him crazy. Since I've only heard records played a few times in my life, I'm in no position to judge.

Something also quoted pretty much directly from Dad, the sound that is heard is analogue. If something is recorded onto vinyl, an analogue sound is recorded. If it is recorded onto a CD, the analogue sound is converted to digital to store it onto the CD, and then back into analogue so we can hear it. There is always a loss of quality in conversion.

Me? CDs, as has been pointed out, are far more practical. You can't press a record at home :D

EDIT: Looks like Andy already said something about all sound being analogue

[Omicron]

I love listening to LPs. My dad has a huge amount of them, and we just got his old turntable fixed up. Maybe it's just the old charm that they have, but there is definitely something about them that I enjoy more than CDs.

Also, there are a lot of old classical and jazz recordings that were only ever released on LP...the recording companies have since gone under, or the originals have been lost, so they've never been released in CD form. Thankfully there are some devoted people out there in the industry who devote their time to saving such old gems.

[Paratus]

CD's are plain more convenient nowadays :D :p
Vinyl, though, for certain music, just has a better feel to it (in my opinion). For example, I don't think I could enjoy old blues or jazz classics that have only been done on vinyl as much if I don't hear that great crackle it has in the background from the vinyl. I would think to the untrained ear (like mine ;)) it would just be a matter of opinion and taste on cd vs. viynl sound

[Maximicus]

My ears really just aren't that sensitive. I don't usually sit and listen to the format (means), but the music (ends). :D

And I'm 18 and have listened to LOTS of records. I do love the album covers. Pink Floyd, The Who.... Hmph, most people my age nowadays would probably say "The WHO?" :confused: :( :cry:

[Paratus]

My ears really just aren't that sensitive. I don't usually sit and listen to the format (means), but the music (ends). :D

And I'm 18 and have listened to LOTS of records. I do love the album covers. Pink Floyd, The Who.... Hmph, most people my age nowadays would probably say "The WHO?" :confused: :( :cry:

I'd consider it a sin not to know who The Who are and call them blasphemers :D